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Optimystik
2009-10-14, 10:40 AM
I've been leafing through the Completes again and I finally got around to Complete Warrior. The samurai base class inside seems pretty standard to me, but when I come here he's second only to Truenamer in terms of abysmal failures by WotC design. Do the boards truly feel this way, and if so, why?

Maybe I just don't get it because I don't play melee, but he seems functional at least. Sure he's a little MAD (less so than a paladin I think) and focuses a bit heavily on the dual-wielding schtick, but at least he has full BAB...

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-14, 10:42 AM
It's like a fighter with a marginally better skill list and suboptimal and limited pre-chosen bonus feats (and fewer of them).

PinkysBrain
2009-10-14, 10:43 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121898&highlight=samurai

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-14, 10:43 AM
He's bad because he's sort of like a fighter, but locked on to the extremely sub-optimal TWF path of feat selection. And he has fear effects, which become useless rather quickly.

In short, he's pretty much a fighter, but with even fewer build choices, and all of the choices you do have are bad. Essentially, there is nothing, other than the aforementioned useless fear thing, that a CW Samurai can do that a Fighter or Paladin or Ranger can't do better.

Edit: Double Ninja'd

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 10:43 AM
He's quite close to NPC Warrior in terms of power. Does that answer your question? Level 2, you get very limited TWF. Then you get ITWF on level 11! and GTWF on 16. So yeah, they're 5 levels late. Then you get Quick Draw only with your dual wield combo. And you have no bonus damage. Really, nothing they do is any good...

The only way to even make him comparable to an NPC Warrior is to abandon the feats you get with your weapons and use something good instead. The Staredown is literally the only class features worth anything in the class and even that's way inferior to what Barbarians and Zhentarim Fighters can do with the same skill.

Cyclocone
2009-10-14, 10:44 AM
It's a Fighter with pre-selected feats, and bad feats at that.

Sort of like how a Warmage is a Sorcerer with crappy spells pre-selected.

Deth Muncher
2009-10-14, 10:51 AM
Y'know, along these lines, I always hear how horrible the CW Samurai is, but never the OA Samurai? How's he?

Mike_G
2009-10-14, 10:53 AM
It's a Fighter with pre-selected feats, and bad feats at that.

Sort of like how a Warmage is a Sorcerer with crappy spells pre-selected.


Nah, the Warmage has a lot more spells known than a Sorcerer.

It's not the best spell list, but it's a good blaster-caster. If you want to chuck fire and lightning around, and don't want to spend hours optimizing your blasting, it's just the ticket, and works fine out of the box.

The analogy would work if the Samurai got more overall feats than the fighter, even though they were pre-selected and fairly weak. As is, the Fighter or Ranger could have nearly all the Samurai class features sooner than the Samurai.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-14, 10:56 AM
It's a Fighter with pre-selected feats, and bad feats at that.

Sort of like how a Warmage is a Sorcerer with crappy spells pre-selected.

Yes, & the Warmage is a Tier 4 class, down from a Tier 2 Sorcerer.

The Fighter is a Tier 5 class, so as a sub-optimal version of that, the CW Samurai falls down even further...

Telonius
2009-10-14, 11:02 AM
Y'know, along these lines, I always hear how horrible the CW Samurai is, but never the OA Samurai? How's he?

Decently good because of Iajutsu focus and an effective discount on magic weapons for his ancestral daisho. While the sets of bonus feats are more limited than the Fighter's set, you do get to choose which set you want.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-14, 11:03 AM
It works well for Imperious Command intimidate builds.
Also a one level dip is a good way to qualify for Ronin if you want to do a Samarai/Bard/Ronin/Warchanter Charging build.

Cieyrin
2009-10-14, 11:09 AM
I don't think CW Samurai is completely a lost cause, as Shneeky's Samurai in ToS has proved. Intimidate is a powerful skill if you abuse it well enough.

Whether you necessarily want every Intimidater to be a CW Samurai, I would say no but they can work, just needs a lot of work to make them even a one-trick pony.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 11:13 AM
Only viable in ToS because fear is non-mind affecting there. In actuality, it's an emotion, which is. And that puts it in the same boat as the enchantment school of magic, widely regarded as "2nd to drop", after Evocation.

The Endbringer Xaraphim
2009-10-14, 11:26 AM
Th OA Samurai is...

...

...not proficient with the katana.

Yeah. I wish I was joking. Other than that, I have no real beef with them.

Optimystik
2009-10-14, 11:27 AM
Wow, it is worse than a fighter... I confess I didn't think of it that way, but when you say it like that it makes sense. And is distinctly horrifying.

Thanks for the replies!

Steward
2009-10-14, 11:31 AM
A Samurai (CW) is perfectly viable if you gestalt as a better class, like Druid or Commoner. I can't imagine what kind of person looks at the Fighter class and says. "You know what's wrong with this? It's too versatile. Let's Wizards this up a little!"


Only viable in ToS because fear is non-mind affecting there. In actuality, it's an emotion, which is. And that puts it in the same boat as the enchantment school of magic, widely regarded as "2nd to drop", after Evocation.

So if you change the rules it becomes a better class? I guess that's why houseruling is so important when dealing with the one or two really bad classes in D&D 3.5. either that or dipping into Druid for 19 levels.

Grumman
2009-10-14, 11:31 AM
Th OA Samurai is...

...

...not proficient with the katana.

Yeah. I wish I was joking. Other than that, I have no real beef with them.
This is incorrect. The OA Samurai is proficient with the katana as a two handed weapon. They just can't use the katana one-handed without the -4 penalty. This actually makes sense, if you remember that most samurai didn't fight with both swords at the same time.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 11:33 AM
I don't think CW Samurai is completely a lost cause, as Shneeky's Samurai in ToS has proved. Intimidate is a powerful skill if you abuse it well enough.

Whether you necessarily want every Intimidater to be a CW Samurai, I would say no but they can work, just needs a lot of work to make them even a one-trick pony.

Fighter/Barbarian is a far superior Intimidator, getting Swift Action Intimidates on Fighter 9 (prolly level 10) and Free Action Intimidates on Barbarian 1 (off the Barbarian dip + Intimidating Rage).

It's not so much that it's hopeless; indeed, I could make an NPC Warrior that can "contribute" in the sense that he could deal a couple of hundreds points of damage per attack, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still strictly worse than a Fighter. It's just that anything CW Samurai can do, other martial types can do much better.

Yuki Akuma
2009-10-14, 11:34 AM
Th OA Samurai is...

...

...not proficient with the katana.

Yeah. I wish I was joking. Other than that, I have no real beef with them.

He's proficient with all martial weapons. Yes he is.

He can't wield it one-handed but what kind of idiot wields a two-handed sword in one hand?

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-14, 11:44 AM
He's proficient with all martial weapons. Yes he is.

He can't wield it one-handed but what kind of idiot wields a two-handed sword in one hand?

This guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi)

Steward
2009-10-14, 11:48 AM
He's proficient with all martial weapons. Yes he is.

He can't wield it one-handed but what kind of idiot wields a two-handed sword in one hand?

The kind of person who thinks the Fighter is cheesy and overpowered and feels that the Paladin's code of conduct and alignment system is too objective and uncontroversial. The kind of person who doesn't even want to know what equipment he has before he starts playing. The kind of person who is well aware that he's just treading water until a Prestige Class opens up.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 11:53 AM
So if you change the rules it becomes a better class? I guess that's why houseruling is so important when dealing with the one or two really bad classes in D&D 3.5. either that or dipping into Druid for 19 levels.

It's the reason most people limit metamagic reducers, and take a hard look at spells such as Holy Word and Blasphemy, which can kill outright without a save. And yes, at level 11, a caster can hit CL 21 for short periods of time.

It's also typically a reason that anything with more than 2 arms, riding something with 2 arms, and looking like a 6 lance pincusion... it looked at.

Talya
2009-10-14, 11:57 AM
Th OA Samurai is...

...

...not proficient with the katana.

Yeah. I wish I was joking. Other than that, I have no real beef with them.

The Katana/Bastard sword is a martial weapon. He has martial weapon proficiency. Sure, he can't weild it in one hand, but real samurai did not dual weild. (Sure, there's an occasional exception, but they just took exotic weapon proficiency!) The Katana and Wakizashi were not meant to be weilded together, they had different purposes.

Still, the OA samurai is not a great class to stay in 1-20. It's still better than a fighter (especially if limited to core only), with its Iajutsu Focus, extra skill points and high will save, but it has fewer and more limited feat selection, too. But as a 1-2 level dip, the OA samurai is absolutely outstanding for any melee type. Especially Samurai 2/Warblade X is a very fun combo. (Mixing Iajutsu Focus with Sapphire Nightmare Blade --to render your opponent flatfooted even when they won initiative, thereby qualifying for IF bonus dice-- is all sorts of awesome.)

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 11:59 AM
It's the reason most people limit metamagic reducers, and take a hard look at spells such as Holy Word and Blasphemy, which can kill outright without a save. And yes, at level 11, a caster can hit CL 21 for short periods of time.

It's not even very short; Beads of Karma last 10 minutes, Divine Spell Power as long as you have Turn-attempts left and Ankh of Ascension 3/day. For example. So reaching CL 21 for 10 mins is quite doable.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 12:03 PM
Div Spell power is very short duration. Yeah, you can have it when you need it, but it's not at all an all day buff.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 12:10 PM
Div Spell power is very short duration. Yeah, you can have it when you need it, but it's not at all an all day buff.

Yeah, I was more referring to the fact that you'll probably have enough TU uses to use it with every spell you'd need it on; given that it doesn't really take an action to use you can access it whenever you need it without expending an action effectively giving you an all-day automatic access to the buff making the smallest common "duration" in all the buffs and thus the limit as to how long you can have the CL up per day Beads of Karma.

Gametime
2009-10-14, 12:48 PM
It's not even very short; Beads of Karma last 10 minutes, Divine Spell Power as long as you have Turn-attempts left and Ankh of Ascension 3/day. For example. So reaching CL 21 for 10 mins is quite doable.

And that's without even getting into Shadowcraft Mage/Earth Spell/Arcane Disciple shenanigans.

Indon
2009-10-14, 01:02 PM
You could duplicate most of the class features with a straight Fighter and have a number of feats to spare for doing something else, like specializing in mounted archery.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 01:03 PM
The CW Samurai is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-14, 01:04 PM
The CW Samurai is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Cause he can't specialize and doesn't have a familiar, right?

Blackfang108
2009-10-14, 01:06 PM
The CW Samurai is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Ahh, yes. Much like the Lightning Warrior

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 01:06 PM
Cause he can't specialize and doesn't have a familiar, right?

No. Because he's like a fighter, but worse, and comes with a bunch of pseudo-oriental baggage.

Myou
2009-10-14, 01:23 PM
Cause he can't specialize and doesn't have a familiar, right?

*Groan.* :smallyuk:

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-14, 01:25 PM
*Groan.* :smallyuk:

He did quote it almost verbatim, and it is technically true: a CW samurai doesn't have a familiar and can't specialize.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 01:26 PM
He did quote it almost verbatim, and it is technically true: a CW samurai doesn't have a familiar and can't specialize.

He does specialize, though.
In sucking.

Mongoose87
2009-10-14, 01:42 PM
The CW Samurai is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Too bad the flavor is earwax.

Talya
2009-10-14, 01:56 PM
Too bad the flavor is earwax.

yeah, it's not even very good Samurai "flavoring." Even if its class features were effective, almost nothing about it has anything to do with Samurai.

Oriental Adventures has outstanding "flavor" across the board, in comparison. I really want to play a campaign based in that world....

Akal Saris
2009-10-14, 01:56 PM
He does specialize, though.
In sucking.

He has a PhD in Horribleness.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-14, 01:57 PM
This guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi)

That guy roled high on his initial ability scores & took an optimal series of feats. He also was probably a Warblade, & not a Fighter; he certainly was not a CW Samurai. :smallamused:

Talya
2009-10-14, 01:58 PM
He has a PhD in Horribleness.

NPH will smite you for comparing him to the CW Samurai.

sonofzeal
2009-10-14, 02:00 PM
Gaaaaaah....

CW Samurai lags if you compare him to the fighter. And, to be fair, that's the obvious comparison. However, a cursory examination of the fear stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) shows that Shaken + Shaken = Fear. Staredown is weak because it only makes them Shaken. But as of level 14, a decent Samurai can use Mass Staredown twice a normal turn (move+standard), and drive enemies straight into Fear. He can do this at-will at no cost. It's based on a skill check, which is crazy-easy to pump (and he gets a +4 which is a good start), and is opposed by a "modified level check" which starts high but is crazy-hard to pump in defense. It's non-magical, provides no save/SR, and bypasses a few of the standard defenses for these things.

That's not even optimizing, that's built right into the class. Start optimizing on top of that, and hey, fun things might happen happen. There's also a couple other nice tricks out there, and my own personal contribution revolving around Perform: Weapon Drill and Epic Uses of Perform.

So yeah, CW Samurai are weak if you play them like Fighters instead of their own class.

Sliver
2009-10-14, 02:11 PM
Gaaaaaah....

CW Samurai lags if you compare him to the fighter. And, to be fair, that's the obvious comparison. However, a cursory examination of the fear stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) shows that Shaken + Shaken = Fear. Staredown is weak because it only makes them Shaken. But as of level 14, a decent Samurai can use Mass Staredown twice a normal turn (move+standard), and drive enemies straight into Fear. He can do this at-will at no cost. It's based on a skill check, which is crazy-easy to pump (and he gets a +4 which is a good start), and is opposed by a "modified level check" which starts high but is crazy-hard to pump in defense. It's non-magical, provides no save/SR, and bypasses a few of the standard defenses for these things.

That's not even optimizing, that's built right into the class. Start optimizing on top of that, and hey, fun things might happen happen. There's also a couple other nice tricks out there, and my own personal contribution revolving around Perform: Weapon Drill and Epic Uses of Perform.

So yeah, CW Samurai are weak if you play them like Fighters instead of their own class.

AFB but.. isn't his staredown for one turn? he will be able to do anything except stare at people?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 02:11 PM
It's non-magical, provides no save/SR, and bypasses a few of the standard defenses for these things.


A Paladin of 3rd level or higher, undead, constructs, plants, oozes, and anyone with access to Mind Blank are immune.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 02:15 PM
Gaaaaaah....

CW Samurai lags if you compare him to the fighter. And, to be fair, that's the obvious comparison. However, a cursory examination of the fear stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) shows that Shaken + Shaken = Fear. Staredown is weak because it only makes them Shaken. But as of level 14, a decent Samurai can use Mass Staredown twice a normal turn (move+standard), and drive enemies straight into Fear. He can do this at-will at no cost. It's based on a skill check, which is crazy-easy to pump (and he gets a +4 which is a good start), and is opposed by a "modified level check" which starts high but is crazy-hard to pump in defense. It's non-magical, provides no save/SR, and bypasses a few of the standard defenses for these things.

That's not even optimizing, that's built right into the class. Start optimizing on top of that, and hey, fun things might happen happen. There's also a couple other nice tricks out there, and my own personal contribution revolving around Perform: Weapon Drill and Epic Uses of Perform.

So yeah, CW Samurai are weak if you play them like Fighters instead of their own class.

Zhentarim Fighter gets Swift Action Intimidate over CW Samurai's Move Action Intimidate. Yeah, no, I'll still pick the Fighter (or the Intimidating Rage Barbarian) the Samurai, especially since they're competent in other things too.

sonofzeal
2009-10-14, 02:21 PM
AFB but.. isn't his staredown for one turn? he will be able to do anything except stare at people?
There's probably a way to extend it, certainly ways to get extra actions, and usually allies. As such, it's exactly "broken", but merely "useful".

Even at 1 round, that's a round the (potentially many) enemies aren't attacking you and have a fairly reasonable debuff, and have to flee so it counts as BC too. In effect, the Samurai sacrifices his turn to make all the enemies in range sacrifice their turn, be debuffed, and lose any tactical advantage they had. And the samurai can get his turn back by various means (I like White Raven Tactics here, since the Samurai still has his Swift), but the enemies are still Fear'd even if they get more actions. In most groups, I'd count that a solid win.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-14, 02:24 PM
Zhentarim Fighter gets Swift Action Intimidate over CW Samurai's Move Action Intimidate. Yeah, no, I'll still pick the Fighter (or the Intimidating Rage Barbarian) the Samurai, especially since they're competent in other things too.

In light of this, how does a Zhentarim Fighter build with DotU material compare to this hypothetical Samurai with White Raven support?

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 02:30 PM
In light of this, how does a Zhentarim Fighter build with DotU material compare to this hypothetical Samurai with White Raven support?

*shrug* Less levels invested, ability to infinitely lockdown opponents while taking full rounds of actions; I'd say it's pretty even though using the "second full-round" reading of White Raven obviously does make Swift Actions way stronger. Default CW Samurai hardly makes much use of them.

The Samurai would be better at Intimidating (due to being multitargeting) while the Fighter would be doing more other things like beating things while at it. Of course, the Fighter can use White Raven Tactics for an extra turn and then use the second turn's Swift Action for Intimidate...

sonofzeal
2009-10-14, 02:32 PM
Zhentarim Fighter gets Swift Action Intimidate over CW Samurai's Move Action Intimidate. Yeah, no, I'll still pick the Fighter (or the Intimidating Rage Barbarian) the Samurai, especially since they're competent in other things too.
....Zhentarim Fighter is good, but can't affect multiple people, gets a smaller base bonus on intimidate checks, and the only real advantage is that he gets a move action the same round. Also, to my knowledge there's many more ways to grab extra move actions than there are to grab extra swift actions. Oh, and the Samurai gets several other tricks that tie in with having a high Cha (smite, Weapon Drill), where on the Fighter it's just more wasted MAD.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-14, 02:34 PM
Also, to my knowledge there's many more ways to grab extra move actions than there are to grab extra swift actions.

Drow of the Underdark has Dreadful armor which allows move-action intimidation.

Myou
2009-10-14, 02:36 PM
He did quote it almost verbatim, and it is technically true: a CW samurai doesn't have a familiar and can't specialize.

He made me groan too. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 02:37 PM
....Zhentarim Fighter is good, but can't affect multiple people, gets a smaller base bonus on intimidate checks, and the only real advantage is that he gets a move action the same round. Also, to my knowledge there's many more ways to grab extra move actions than there are to grab extra swift actions. Oh, and the Samurai gets several other tricks that tie in with having a high Cha (smite, Weapon Drill), where on the Fighter it's just more wasted MAD.

Smite is ~2-3 times per day for most of the game (and only affects one attack); not enough to really count. Weapon Drill is not a Samurai class feature and just as easily available to Fighter too. Fighter also gets the Intimidation with less levels. 9 vs. 14, to be precise.

sonofzeal
2009-10-14, 02:41 PM
Drow of the Underdark has Dreadful armor which allows move-action intimidation.
Ah, well, I concede the point then. Samurai's still got the trick working straight out the box, which will help a lot with some DMs who discourage dumpster diving (especially when the results are this colourful). It's still an effective trick, whoever's doing it, and the "Mass Staredown" part still helps a lot on the Samurai's side, but I'll grant that Zhentarim Fighter with Fearsome armor is a generally more useful character.


.....man, and the armor gives a +5 to Intimidate too? And it's only a static price and a low one at that? Insanity!

sonofzeal
2009-10-14, 02:53 PM
Smite is ~2-3 times per day for most of the game (and only affects one attack); not enough to really count. Weapon Drill is not a Samurai class feature and just as easily available to Fighter too. Fighter also gets the Intimidation with less levels. 9 vs. 14, to be precise.
Smite is only a few times per day, but there's a lot of feats out there to make the most of it. Somewhat like Turning, it's almost more useful for the other things you can trade it for than for the thing itself. Which reminds me - was it ever clarified if the Paladin's Smite can be combined with a full attack, or if it's a standard action? The wording, "one normal melee attack", is a bit ambiguous and I can't quite remember.

Weapon Drill isn't a class feature, but from the same book and is powered up by a whole list of Samurai class features. Fighters can do it too, but generally lack Cha synergy, and it's much easier for the Samurai to dip Fighter than it is the other way around.



Oh, and come to think of it, I'm not sure how many DMs would be cool with Zhentarim Fighter, given it's {a} campaign-specific, {b} doesn't actually appear in any hardcover book, and {c} is a variant that doesn't make you trade anything for the powers it gives. I tend to be permissive, but that sets off massive warning bells all over the place to me.

Ozymandias
2009-10-14, 02:54 PM
So the Samurai is good because he can scare other people with the traditional martial prowess that he does not, in fact, actually possess?

So why isn't it the Bluff skill?

Indon
2009-10-14, 02:59 PM
So the Samurai is good because he can scare other people with the traditional martial prowess that he does not, in fact, actually possess?

So why isn't it the Bluff skill?

Like any full BAB bonus class, the Samurai can theoretically deal damage in melee.

Other full BAB classes can do other things while also dealing damage in melee.

lsfreak
2009-10-14, 03:24 PM
The CW Samurai is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

The biggest problem being that you can get the exact same flavor with a warblade and be much better. A fighter, even. With very very slight fluff shifts you can throw in swordsage, crusader, psywarrior, knight, and probably a few I'm forgetting.

quiet1mi
2009-10-16, 01:01 AM
The way I see it, the OA did a great job of the Samurai... In my opinion he is a Highly trained Warrior (Fighter), with will power (Best progression for Will Save), most importantly is honorable and lawful (The Alignment restriction and obeying your lord)

Compared to the fighter... take away some feats (a Trade for the Best progression for Will Save) Give him 4+Int skills, Iaijutsu focus (Call it a class specific skill) and the Family Heirloom weapon in exchange for the alignment restriction...

I see it around Tier 5 maybe tier 4 if optimized for max damage...

Anyone want to add to that or do we just say that OA made a great Samurai, too bad they never updated it for 3.5...

PS: What do you guys think about just giving the Samurai Sudden Strike instead of Iaijutsu focus, this way we can eliminate the...

"My Bard uses Iaijutsu Focus with a total bonus equal to Bard level+3+Cha (The same as a Samurai that dumped skill points into Iaijutsu focus) in exchange for 1 class feature and two feats (Bardic Knack, Skill focus (Iaijutsu Focus) and Jack of all trades)

Maybe that would not be too bad in a gestalt game with Bard/Fighter

sonofzeal
2009-10-16, 01:17 AM
Personally, I've always seen Samurai as best handled by one of those "Daring Outlaw" or "Swift Hunter" feats, to combine Fighters and Monks. Not sure on the specific, except allowing flurry with any weapon.

quiet1mi
2009-10-16, 01:30 AM
IIRC they have one for ninja/Fighter...

by level 6 (4/2)
you get sudden strike (2d6)
you get bonus to AC
Skill points for movement...
two fighter feats (weapon focus and specialization)

overall, depending how efficient you fight this could make a samurai...

Ecalsneerg
2009-10-16, 03:28 AM
Obligatory ToB reference:

Make a Warblade and call him a samurai. Hell, a katana is one of Diamond Mind's discipline weapons.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-16, 08:20 AM
Warblade even has 4+Int Mod skills, so you can have all the refined parts of the Samurai.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-16, 09:25 AM
Has anyone linked to that hilarious guide on optimizing a Samurai yet? The tongue-in-cheeck parody of Gia's Monk guide?