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View Full Version : [3.5] Takin' down this here Dragon



Burley
2009-10-14, 12:29 PM
Okay, I'm a Beguiler 7/Master of Masks 2, which means I have 4th level spells at my disposal, am casting as a 9th level character and have a save DC so ridiculously high for my level it should be slapped.
I missed the last session, and, thus, the party is about to get in a fight the probably won't win. The deciding factor seems to be a dragon with a giant rider.

My plan: Solid Fog the dragon and use shadow conjuration to either A) Black Tentacle it, or 2)use Minor Creation to make a bunch of wooden stakes to impale the falling dragon.
Maybe I'll try to hit the dragon when it's above all the enemies? I dunno...

What'd be the best beguilery way to follow up the Solid Fog drop?

Jergmo
2009-10-14, 12:32 PM
Okay, I'm a Beguiler 7/Master of Masks 2, which means I have 4th level spells at my disposal, am casting as a 9th level character and have a save DC so ridiculously high for my level it should be slapped.
I missed the last session, and, thus, the party is about to get in a fight the probably won't win. The deciding factor seems to be a dragon with a giant rider.

My plan: Solid Fog the dragon and use shadow conjuration to either A) Black Tentacle it, or 2)use Minor Creation to make a bunch of wooden stakes to impale the falling dragon.
Maybe I'll try to hit the dragon when it's above all the enemies? I dunno...

What'd be the best beguilery way to follow up the Solid Fog drop?

Um...well, first off, I wouldn't think black tentacles would be that great against a dragon, but maybe I'm wrong. Also, I'm not sure those wooden spikes would do that much - plus casting the spell would take ten rounds.

What kind of dragon is it/what are all of the spells at your disposal?

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-14, 01:17 PM
Age. Age is important. How old/big is the dragon? For that matter, what kind of giant is it? If this is an Ogre on a Mature Green or something, you'll probably be alright. If it's, say, a Storm Giant riding a Great Wyrm Red, my recommendation is that you put your head between your legs and kiss your fanny goodbye. More detail is required for better advice.

Burley
2009-10-14, 01:19 PM
Oh... heh... Didn't see the casting time. Heh...:smallredface:

Like I said, I have the beguiler spell list up to 4th level spells, and I have shadow conjuration from the advanced learning. I don't think I can post the full spell list... y'know... legally.
Moreover, I have a staff that lets me cast some spells:
1/day-Summon Monster IV (Air Mephit, Dust Mephit, or Ice Mephit)
2/day each-Fly, Lightning Bolt, Summon Monster III (small air elemental only)
4/day each-Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, Whispering Wind, Resist Energy, Wind Wall, Levitate, Protection from Energy, Gust of Wind, and Gaseous Form.
(The staff is some sort of bonded item that increases the XP needed to level.)

Other than that, I have nothing useful to this situation. I have no prep-time, either, since the combat has already begun and I arrived a little late. (They left as I was preparing spells...:smallmad:)

Edit: I know it's a white dragon. I don't know the age. I believe its a frost giant, but I don't know really. Like I said, I missed the previous session. Most likely it is an ogre, since we've been fighting a lot of those.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 01:36 PM
I would
1) open with solid fog, buying you 2 to 4 rounds of buff time
2) imp invisibility on yourself
3) put a buff on a friend OR dispel on dragon should it become visible
4) put haste on your friends
5) Spam confusion, followed by slow & glitterdust. You basically want to debuff them into the ground. Slowed, blinded, confused monsters are much easier to fight.

Mando Knight
2009-10-14, 02:03 PM
Use Shivering Touch if it's available to you. Also use your energy resisting spells to counter its ice breath. In between lockdown-type spells, you could fire off multiple fire spells...

Shadow Conjuration to use Fire Orb would be useful in that case.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 02:09 PM
Oh... heh... Didn't see the casting time. Heh...:smallredface:

Like I said, I have the beguiler spell list up to 4th level spells, and I have shadow conjuration from the advanced learning. I don't think I can post the full spell list... y'know... legally.
Moreover, I have a staff that lets me cast some spells:
1/day-Summon Monster IV (Air Mephit, Dust Mephit, or Ice Mephit)
2/day each-Fly, Lightning Bolt, Summon Monster III (small air elemental only)
4/day each-Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, Whispering Wind, Resist Energy, Wind Wall, Levitate, Protection from Energy, Gust of Wind, and Gaseous Form.
(The staff is some sort of bonded item that increases the XP needed to level.)

Other than that, I have nothing useful to this situation. I have no prep-time, either, since the combat has already begun and I arrived a little late. (They left as I was preparing spells...:smallmad:)

Edit: I know it's a white dragon. I don't know the age. I believe its a frost giant, but I don't know really. Like I said, I missed the previous session. Most likely it is an ogre, since we've been fighting a lot of those.

You can name the spells just fine as long as you don't specify what they do.

Also, as I read it, Shadow Conjuration seems to get by the casting time of the other spells; it replicates any Conjuration of 3rd level or lower and has casting time of 1 standard action. No phrase increases the casting time so it should be 1 standard action regardless of the mimicked spell's casting time.

Myou
2009-10-14, 02:41 PM
I'm curious, what is your save DC?

Godskook
2009-10-14, 02:53 PM
Shadow Conjuration to use Fire Orb would be useful in that case.

But sadly, impossible. Both are 4th level spells, so SC can't mimic it.

Burley
2009-10-14, 03:01 PM
But sadly, impossible. Both are 4th level spells, so SC can't mimic it.

That's the problem, too. I keep thinking I can replicate 4th level spells! Oy...

Also, Myou, for 4th level Enchantment and Illusion spells the DCs are 24, or 25 with Cloaked Casting. I'm hoping I can somehow hit the dragon with a touch of idiocy to increase the odds of charming or something.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 03:06 PM
Edit: I know it's a white dragon. I don't know the age. I believe its a frost giant, but I don't know really. Like I said, I missed the previous session. Most likely it is an ogre, since we've been fighting a lot of those.

In the best case scenario, you'll be in for a bit of a fight. The Dragon itself still has Blindsight, so neutralizing it's mobility will be more important than neutralizing its senses. Shivering Touch is out of the question because its a White Dragon, however Ray of Stupidity may very well work if cast twice while the dragon is airborne. If you can, get a Summon Monster effect up before combat starts and have the summon fly up to the dragon (it won't care at all). Fiendish Centipedes if possible (flight can be granted to them fairly easily if you have the right spells).



In the worst case scenario, you're DM is being a **** and just sent the Demon Prince of the Iron Wastes and his pet White Dragon at you. In this case, you are rightfully f***ed.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 03:09 PM
In the best case scenario, you'll be in for a bit of a fight. The Dragon itself still has Blindsight

Key difference, the Dragons only have Blindsense, so disabling their vision still inflicts them with quite the penalties (total concealment).

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-14, 03:14 PM
Key difference, the Dragons only have Blindsense, so disabling their vision still inflicts them with quite the penalties (total concealment).

My bad. I kinda stopped using True Dragons as written in the books when my party took out the Blue Dragon in Exemplars of Evil.

Myou
2009-10-14, 03:17 PM
Also, Myou, for 4th level Enchantment and Illusion spells the DCs are 24, or 25 with Cloaked Casting. I'm hoping I can somehow hit the dragon with a touch of idiocy to increase the odds of charming or something.

How did you get your modifier to +10?

Mando Knight
2009-10-14, 04:23 PM
But sadly, impossible. Both are 4th level spells, so SC can't mimic it.

See, this is what I get for not having the Spell Compendium on me. And you don't have Shadow Evocation, so using it to mimic Fireball or Scorching Ray is out of the question...

Darrin
2009-10-14, 04:34 PM
Shivering Touch is out of the question because its a White Dragon

You can still disable a dragon by stacking Dex penalties from different sources. Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion + Net/Lasso/Web/Entangle should work.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-14, 04:36 PM
Okay, I'm a Beguiler 7/Master of Masks 2, which means I have 4th level spells at my disposal, am casting as a 9th level character and have a save DC so ridiculously high for my level it should be slapped.
I missed the last session, and, thus, the party is about to get in a fight the probably won't win. The deciding factor seems to be a dragon with a giant rider.

My plan: Solid Fog the dragon and use shadow conjuration to either A) Black Tentacle it, or 2)use Minor Creation to make a bunch of wooden stakes to impale the falling dragon.
Maybe I'll try to hit the dragon when it's above all the enemies? I dunno...

What'd be the best beguilery way to follow up the Solid Fog drop?

Can you buy scrolls? Do you have UMD skill?

Volkov
2009-10-14, 04:56 PM
What type of dragon is it? Shadow dragons are absolutely brutal with their level draining breath shenanigans.

lsfreak
2009-10-14, 05:01 PM
You can still disable a dragon by stacking Dex penalties from different sources. Ray of Clumsiness + Ray of Exhaustion + Net/Lasso/Web/Entangle should work.

Isn't that slightly questionable since dragons are immune to paralysis and having zero Dex is considered paralysis?

Volkov
2009-10-14, 05:03 PM
Isn't that slightly questionable since dragons are immune to paralysis and having zero Dex is considered paralysis?

Hmm, Clever usage of the wording of the rules.

BenTheJester
2009-10-14, 05:09 PM
Hmm, Clever usage of the wording of the rules.

Well, if you don't then every dragon has a blatent weakness. There are few, if any, true dragons with a dex higher than 10

tyckspoon
2009-10-14, 06:03 PM
Isn't that slightly questionable since dragons are immune to paralysis and having zero Dex is considered paralysis?

No; Dragons are immune to *magical* paralysis. Having your Dex reduced to 0 is not a magical effect (it may be caused by magical effects, but D&D doesn't care about that- protection from that would fall under immunity to ability damage and/or protection against movement-restricting effects in general as per Freedom of Movement, in the case of applying nets and lassos.) The dragon's immunity prevents you from whacking it with a Hold Monster. It doesn't stop you from Dex-draining it until it stops moving.

Burley
2009-10-15, 06:51 AM
Myou: I have a 28 INT and took Spell Focus (Enchantment) and (Illusion). :smallbiggrin:


Can you buy scrolls? Do you have UMD skill?
Well, here's the rub: My charisma is a 12, and my character can't read, because dopplegangers can't read, and I be one o' them. My UMD is pretty low, and I ignored it because my character is extremely confident in his own abilities. He feels that if it doesn't come in a potion bottle or take up an item slot, its just stifling his creative juices.


Here's how last night played out: I show up. It's a BLUE dragon, which means my staff of Stormypower was only used for a fly spell. I dropped the solid fog, but the DM "couldn't find that rule" about moving half your speed or falling. I offered to look it up for him, but he said "It doesn't matter since the dragon has hover and doesn't need to move."
So, nuts to hover.

Further, the giant riding the Blue Dragon was a Hill Giant, with (apprently) at least 5 levels of sorceror and at least 10 levels of (setting specific charisma based cleric). He kept saying that the encounter was really a CR12, but the hill giant power attacked 20 points of BAB away, and he said that he could have gone a few higher.
The DM kept saying "It's just cheese. I got some cheesey things together. It's pure cheese." I think when he said "cheese," what he really meant was "things that I'm completely clear on the rules for, but went with what I thought it was and that's okay."
And, it is okay, just frustrating.

It ended with our resident Nymph (charisma cleric) dimension dooring herself and three others away, leaving the Frenzied/Raged Barbarian and the poorly-made Scout inside a Blade Barrier, and me outside but trying to find a way to rescue the Barbarian since he's my best friend in-and-out-of-character.
The Giant cast Heal on the dragon, took to the sky, and apparently just sat there for 9 rounds until my Glitterdust effect wore off before he chased us. The DM said, "You get far enough away that you can hide effectively from it, and I'll just say that it has a horrible spot check. See you all next week."

:smallannoyed:Solid Fog shoulda been awesome...

Myou
2009-10-15, 09:05 AM
*Shudder.* What a lazy, inept DM. :smallannoyed:


Myou: I have a 28 INT and took Spell Focus (Enchantment) and (Illusion). :smallbiggrin:


Wow, how did you get 28 int at level 9?

Another_Poet
2009-10-15, 09:38 AM
It ended with our resident Nymph (charisma cleric) dimension dooring herself and three others away, leaving the Frenzied/Raged Barbarian and the poorly-made Scout inside a Blade Barrier, and me outside but trying to find a way to rescue the Barbarian since he's my best friend in-and-out-of-character.

I'm counting 7 characters in your party. You guys actually have a chance against this thing. Economy of actions FTW!

I second the use of multiple dex-reducing spells. Once it's on the ground, DEFINITELY use web as well. Once you hit the dragon with a fire spell, every square of web adds +1d6 fire damage as it burns off. Given how many squares a decently aged dragon takes up this is not insignificant.

Also, beware the giant. It sounds like your GM is not real comfortable with looking up, understanding or adjudicating spell effects, which may mean many of the dragon's wickedest powers won't come into play. The GM may actually believe a melee damage dealer is a more imposing threat and hence the stack of levels the giant has. I wouldn't be surprised if the blue dragon turns out to be a total pansy and you waste time locking it down only to get hosed by the uberhulk.

The fact that the giant can heal is problematic. Maybe your own cleric could counterspell any cure x wounds that the giant tries to use?

And also, the fact that you are an illiterate caster is crippling. At your next level up, spend the friggin' skill points to learn to read. Seriously. :P

ap

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-15, 09:48 AM
Well, here's the rub: My charisma is a 12, and my character can't read, because dopplegangers can't read, and I be one o' them. My UMD is pretty low, and I ignored it because my character is extremely confident in his own abilities. He feels that if it doesn't come in a potion bottle or take up an item slot, its just stifling his creative juices.

Anyone who takes levels in a class other than Totemist or Barbarian automatically learns how to read. The exception is if you took the Illiterate flaw.

The J Pizzel
2009-10-15, 10:03 AM
Anyone who takes levels in a class other than Totemist or Barbarian automatically learns how to read. The exception is if you took the Illiterate flaw.

Took the words right out of my mouth!!

Burley
2009-10-15, 11:07 AM
Took the words right out of my mouth!!

Except, like I said, I'm a doppleganger and dopplegangers (in the Dawnforge campaign setting) can never learn to read.
So, I'm a spontaneous casting class, and I'm passing off my illiteracy as blindness with "mystical sonar powers."
My Intelligence is high for multiple reasons. Part of it is that, in this campaign setting, all races get their racial traits at level one. Then, at level 3, they get a +2 to stat X. At level 5, they get a stat boost to stat Y. At level 7, they get another +2 to stat X. At 9th, they get +2 to stat Z.
X, Y, and Z are different for each of the dozen or so races.
Also, I have a Headband of Intellect +4.
Also, Dawnforge has a Legendary Points system. You get them for being legendary, and you use them to rise through the ranks of Legendary Paths. Each path has 5 tiers, and each tier you achieve gives you a +1 to the stat tied to that Path. There is a path for each of the 6 stats.
I am 2nd tier in the Intelligence path currently.

So, I had an 18 at first level, got the +2 at third and seventh, got +2 from being awesome, and have +4 stat item.

The end.

Myou
2009-10-15, 11:40 AM
Except, like I said, I'm a doppleganger and dopplegangers (in the Dawnforge campaign setting) can never learn to read.
So, I'm a spontaneous casting class, and I'm passing off my illiteracy as blindness with "mystical sonar powers."
My Intelligence is high for multiple reasons. Part of it is that, in this campaign setting, all races get their racial traits at level one. Then, at level 3, they get a +2 to stat X. At level 5, they get a stat boost to stat Y. At level 7, they get another +2 to stat X. At 9th, they get +2 to stat Z.
X, Y, and Z are different for each of the dozen or so races.
Also, I have a Headband of Intellect +4.
Also, Dawnforge has a Legendary Points system. You get them for being legendary, and you use them to rise through the ranks of Legendary Paths. Each path has 5 tiers, and each tier you achieve gives you a +1 to the stat tied to that Path. There is a path for each of the 6 stats.
I am 2nd tier in the Intelligence path currently.

So, I had an 18 at first level, got the +2 at third and seventh, got +2 from being awesome, and have +4 stat item.

The end.

Ahhh, makes sense. :3

Zombimode
2009-10-15, 11:50 AM
Is it a green dragon with a hill giant rider? If so, suggest the giant that its time for a snack.
Problem solved.

:smallwink:

Sliver
2009-10-15, 12:36 PM
Is it a green dragon with a hill giant rider? If so, suggest the giant that its time for a snack.
Problem solved.

:smallwink:

It was a blue dragon. The combat ended. This problem, solved.

Leewei
2009-10-15, 08:02 PM
Sounds like the battle's over. Next time around, consider solid fog combined with widened legion of sentinels. Since solid fog negates 5' steps and reduces all movement to 5', the dragon will provoke a ton of AoO touch attacks (dragon touch AC is typically very poor) any time it moves.

Sliver
2009-10-16, 01:57 AM
Sounds like the battle's over. Next time around, consider solid fog combined with widened legion of sentinels. Since solid fog negates 5' steps and reduces all movement to 5', the dragon will provoke a ton of AoO touch attacks (dragon touch AC is typically very poor) any time it moves.

To me it sounded like the dragon didn't move in the solid fog but was hovering there.. It really sounded to me like the enemy was just doing nothing any time the PCs didn't pay their full attention to it.. Which is awesome.. They could ignore it while looting the dragon lair..