Gothmog Vs. Sauron. Need help

[Mystic Muse]

Okay. We have had a lack of a good versus thread in a while. This is a hypothetical battle between Gothmog and Sauron since they're supposed to eb pretty close in power and both their powers are measurable by the same standard since they're from the same universe. Assume botha re at full power.

I'm sort of a beginner with lord of the rings So I'd like somebody who knows a bit more about the LOTRverse to post conditions or rectify the full power condition I set so that we can argue clearly and so both sides have a fair chance.

[snoopy13a]

It's pretty simple actually.

Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar that joined Melkor. Why? Because he was made Melkor's lieutenant. Gothmog was a Maiar as well but was not made Melkor's lieutenant. Since Melkor is all about power, it stands to reason that he'd pick his #2 based on how powerful they were. Therefore, Sauron is more powerful.

[warty goblin]

Hard to say. In terms of stand up asskickery, Gothmog is, I think, superior. Sauron however is probably a better manager/strategist/commander. So really, it depends on context.

[Mystic Muse]

should we assume a one on one battle?

[Myshlaevsky]

should we assume a one on one battle?

Isn't Gothmog's army a bunch of Balrogs with a guard of elite trolls? I think he wins if they get their respective forces; Sauron's armies probably can't stop Gothmog & co. reaching him and beating him to death.

[Dienekes]

It's pretty simple actually.

Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar that joined Melkor. Why? Because he was made Melkor's lieutenant. Gothmog was a Maiar as well but was not made Melkor's lieutenant. Since Melkor is all about power, it stands to reason that he'd pick his #2 based on how powerful they were. Therefore, Sauron is more powerful.

Actually weren't Gothmog, Sauron, and a dragon (I think it was Glaurung though it could have been Ancalagon) all his lieutenants?

And in a 1 on 1 fight it's Gothmog. Whenever Melkor wanted someone to go kick some ass he sent Gothmog, while this in itself isn't proof it does stand to reason since he used Gothmog in this function to protect him when he was going to die even.

Sauron is intelligent, most likely more intelligent than Gothmog (since Gothmog never seems to have any thought other than to go kill some elves. Though he did hold the title of Marshal of Hosts which implies he was at least a good strategist and tactician) but in pure combat, there doesn't seem to be a comparison. Gothmog fought armies and killed the greatest of elves. Only dying when he landed in a fountain. Sauron was beaten by 1 elf and 1 human (no Isildur did not kill him, he only took off the ring. Elendil and Gil-Galad actually threw him down alone).

Also, notice that in LotR your power is finite and it can be spread around in things you create. Morgoth and Sauron spread there power about in twisting things and laying magic items and so forth, so much so that by the end of his reign Morgoth couldn't actually do anything. The balrogs however kept their power solely to themselves.

Now facing army to army. Well technically Gothmog only lead Morgoth's army, but let's just assume that that's what you meant.

In that, Gothmog steamrolls Sauron. There's no contest, Gothmog fought using the originals Sauron was only using some mockeries. Gothmog had balrogs (of which one of the weak ones killed Gandalf), Sauron had the Nine (of which were thrown back by a guy with a torch), Gothmog had freakin' dragons, Sauron had fell beats.

Edit: The question really isn't fair for Sauron. Gothmog was always the fighter, Sauron was useful because he was sneaky, clever, and could manage a kingdom.

[Elfin]

Edit: The question really isn't fair for Sauron. Gothmog was always the fighter, Sauron was useful because he was sneaky, clever, and could manage a kingdom.

Agreed. Gothmog would probably win in terms of brute force; Sauron is a more behind-the-scenes sort of villain.

Edit:Maybe instead of a one-on-one battle we could try a war between them?

Double edit: In that same vein, how large did you imagine Sauron/Gothmog's armies to be? For Sauron I'd say something around 6 digits..Gothmog I'm not sure of.

[JonestheSpy]

I really tend to not like these threads, but in this case I do feel compelled to point out that Gothmog was killed in single combat with one elf, Ecthelion, one of the lords of Gondolin. So he's not quite as superbadass as people are building him up to be.

Really, Tolkien always made it clear that Sauron was #2 after Morgoth. Just because Gothmog was the heavy who got sent out to fight doesn't mean he had the most power.

[snoopy13a]

I really tend to not like these threads, but in this case I do feel compelled to point out that Gothmog was killed in single combat with one elf, Ecthelion, one of the lords of Gondolin. So he's not quite as superbadass as people are building him up to be.



To be fair, Sauron lost to a talking dog :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Sauron. As previously stated, he was Morgoth's chief leiutenant, his second-in-command, and The Silmarillion actually explicitly names him the greatest of Morgoth's servants at the end of the Valaquenta chapter ("Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.").

In addition The Silmarillion also tells us that Sauron became a powerful sorcerer by the time of the Battle of Sudden Flame in the middle of the First Age (Of the Ruin of Beleriand chapter: "Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment."), which means he had an exceptionally powerful command of magic even by Maiar standards, else the ability would not have been highlighted as a new attainment for him, merely assumed as part of his natural abilities as a Maia. That, likely, is one of the reasons he was the greatest of Morgoth's lieutenants (it's also likely the inspiration for Sauron's "necromancer" guise in the Third Age, but that's another story).

Thus, with both being Maiar in Morgoth's service, both likely having been empowered by Morgoth (certainly Gothmog when he was made a Balrog, though Sauron is arguable), and Sauron being noted specifically both as Morgoth's greatest servant and as an exceptional sorcerer, it's pretty obvious that Sauron was the more powerful of the two.

There's also the little matter that, apparently, becoming a Balrog deprived Gothmog of his natural immortality when it locked him in a single body, since his death didn't simply result in his spirit leaving his body the way other Maia deaths did, but truly killed him. Kinda an important ability there. Sauron could survive his defeats to return again - Gothmog couldn't.


Also, notice that in LotR your power is finite and it can be spread around in things you create. Morgoth and Sauron spread there power about in twisting things and laying magic items and so forth, so much so that by the end of his reign Morgoth couldn't actually do anything. The balrogs however kept their power solely to themselves.
Actually, it was only Morgoth who did that, not Sauron. Sauron expended his power only in creating the One Ring, which was designed specifically to focus and augment his power when he wore it, actually making him stronger, not weaker (at least until he lost it). You'll notice that his armies consisted only of creatures Morgoth had already corrupted (Orcs and Trolls mainly) and men he could make loyal to him by cunning or other methods, not by any new creatures he himself twisted (save the Nazgul, but they were an indirect creation, resulting from the lore he gave the Elves for making the Nine combined with the effects of the One).

Zevox

[Dienekes]

I really tend to not like these threads, but in this case I do feel compelled to point out that Gothmog was killed in single combat with one elf, Ecthelion, one of the lords of Gondolin. So he's not quite as superbadass as people are building him up to be.

Except Ecthelion by himself slew Gothmog's elite guard of trolls. And then only killed Gothmog when he (the fire demon) fell into a fountain. Hell, he'd be up high on the list for most badass elf of all time just for the troll killing. The Gothmog slaying clinches it.


Thus, with both being Maiar in Morgoth's service, both likely having been empowered by Morgoth (certainly Gothmog when he was made a Balrog, though Sauron is arguable), and Sauron being noted specifically both as Morgoth's greatest servant and as an exceptional sorcerer, it's pretty obvious that Sauron was the more powerful of the two.

I agree. Sauron was more powerful. However, this is a vs. thread not a power thread. There is a difference. Sauron may have been able to blot out the sun, create mountain ranges that formed perfect squares, and raise the dead. But whenever he was called out in a confrontation he lost. I'm fairly certain this is every single time he fights.

As to dwindling power, are you sure? I'll admit I thought that he placed power into other bits and pieces (such as the mountain ranges and the volcano and so on and so forth) but I do not have a quote and do not know 100%.

Though I am fairly certain that the wraiths were not a mistake. The rings were all meant to be used in Sauron's plan. For dwarves (who were naturally resistant to control) the rings simply made their numbers dwindle over the years. For humans, all he needed was to take over their leaders (thus the ringwraiths), and for the elves all those tiny little rings were linked to his One and he would control all of them when they put them on.

[Zevox]

I agree. Sauron was more powerful. However, this is a vs. thread not a power thread. There is a difference. Sauron may have been able to blot out the sun, create mountain ranges that formed perfect squares, and raise the dead. But whenever he was called out in a confrontation he lost. I'm fairly certain this is every single time he fights.
("Raise the dead?" When did he do that? I'm pretty sure that the only time that happened in Tolkien's works was Beren and Luthien, and they were restored by Mandos, the god of the dead, not Sauron.)

Yes, Sauron tends to lose when he gets into physical confrontations - though note that the line I quoted above about his sorcerous power comes from a passage wherein he leads an assault on an Elven tower and captures it, so it isn't always. But lets think for a second about what exactly defeats him, shall we? There were two instances where that happened. The first was Huan, who was protected by a prophecy/fate. Sauron couldn't have won there, no matter what; nor could Gothmog. The second was by Gil-Galad and Elendil, the last true High King of the Noldor and a descendant of Earendil out of Numenore, each wielding magical weapons from their respective realms. Certainly at least as difficult a set of foes as Ecthelion, the lone Elf who slew Gothmog.

Really, the problem is that Sauron almost never engaged in direct combat himself. Barely more often than Morgoth did, in fact. Aside from the three above, the only time I can think of was his duel of magic songs with Finrod Felagund, which he won. He simply did not prefer to do that sort of thing himself, but was more of a manipulator, schemer, and general. So we have far fewer instances of combat, and thus accomplishments of combat, to point to for him than for Gothmog. But that doesn't mean Gothmog would beat him in a fight.


As to dwindling power, are you sure? I'll admit I thought that he placed power into other bits and pieces (such as the mountain ranges and the volcano and so on and so forth) but I do not have a quote and do not know 100%.
I don't recall direct references to him ever raising any mountains, though it wouldn't surprise me if he had erected the mountains around Mordor and Mount Doom. But then again, I also don't recall references to raising mountains expending power permanently that way (if it did, all of the world-shaping the Valar did before the coming of living creatures into the world would have left them significantly weakened), but rather that permanent power expenditures came form twisting creatures to create new minions or corrupting regions to establish your influence over it or prevent unwanted influence (i.e. Morgoth doing that to the River Sirion to weaken Ulmo's ability to aid the Elves).


Though I am fairly certain that the wraiths were not a mistake. The rings were all meant to be used in Sauron's plan. For dwarves (who were naturally resistant to control) the rings simply made their numbers dwindle over the years. For humans, all he needed was to take over their leaders (thus the ringwraiths), and for the elves all those tiny little rings were linked to his One and he would control all of them when they put them on.
Oh, certainly they weren't a mistake. Merely not a direct creation of his - not something which he expended any power making. They were corrupted by the Nine and the One. The Nine were not created by Sauron, but by the Elves, only using his lore - hence their corruption, with no expenditure of power on Sauron's part. The One he did create, but in a way that augmented, not decreased, his power, as I noted before. Thus, an indirect creation, and no loss of power on his part in creating them.

Zevox

[Weezer]

But lets think for a second about what exactly defeats him, shall we? There were two instances where that happened. The first was Huan, who was protected by a prophecy/fate. Sauron couldn't have won there, no matter what; nor could Gothmog. The second was by Gil-Galad and Elendil, the last true High King of the Noldor and a descendant of Earendil out of Numenore, each wielding magical weapons from their respective realms. Certainly at least as difficult a set of foes as Ecthelion, the lone Elf who slew Gothmog.

The thing is Gothmog slew a number of kings/princes of the Noldor, namely mortally wounding Feanor and slaying High King Fingon outright. These two Noldor were probably much more powerful individually than either Gil-Galad or Elendil even if you just go by the fact that powers tended to decline the younger the people in question are.
As for Ecthelion killing Gothmog, it seems that the location of the fountain was key to his victory, without Gothmog's fires being extinguished by the fountain Ecthelion would probably have met the same fate as Feanor or Fingon.

I think in a straight up battle Gothmog would dominate Sauron, there's a reason that Morgoth used Gothmog as his general in all the major battles. I also think that Gothmog isn't being given enough credit as a general, he was the commander of Morgoth's armies up until his death, Morgoth isn't the type of ruler to hand that job out lightly to someone who isn't a good general in his own right. I still think that given equivalent armies Sauron's would win but I think it would be a very close battle.

[Dienekes]

("Raise the dead?" When did he do that? I'm pretty sure that the only time that happened in Tolkien's works was Beren and Luthien, and they were restored by Mandos, the god of the dead, not Sauron.)

The mountains around Mordor are not a natural creation (I'm fairly sure, that's how Tolkien explained it) The raise the dead bit was a reference to the ringwraiths who are not alive or dead and the barrow-wight. And that he was "the Necromancer" but I know, I know that the title had nothing to do with undeath but still the imagery is good.


Yes, Sauron tends to lose when he gets into physical confrontations - though note that the line I quoted above about his sorcerous power comes from a passage wherein he leads an assault on an Elven tower and captures it, so it isn't always. But lets think for a second about what exactly defeats him, shall we? There were two instances where that happened. The first was Huan, who was protected by a prophecy/fate. Sauron couldn't have won there, no matter what; nor could Gothmog. The second was by Gil-Galad and Elendil, the last true High King of the Noldor and a descendant of Earendil out of Numenore, each wielding magical weapons from their respective realms. Certainly at least as difficult a set of foes as Ecthelion, the lone Elf who slew Gothmog.

When those two defeat a bodyguard of elite trolls we'll talk. Them being as strong as Ecthelion run counter to Tolkien design that the power of everything diminishes with the ages. Again, those two slew Sauron by your standards at the very height of all his power with the ring firmly on finger. Gothmog got beaten at his weakest.


Really, the problem is that Sauron almost never engaged in direct combat himself. Barely more often than Morgoth did, in fact. Aside from the three above, the only time I can think of was his duel of magic songs with Finrod Felagund, which he won. He simply did not prefer to do that sort of thing himself, but was more of a manipulator, schemer, and general. So we have far fewer instances of combat, and thus accomplishments of combat, to point to for him than for Gothmog. But that doesn't mean Gothmog would beat him in a fight.

It doesn't mean he wouldn't either. And since we can only compare notes and statistics in an actual brawl Gothmog's record is higher against generally considered higher tier foes. Since the creator of the pair is dead we can never know for sure. However, I like to believe that Morgoth understood what his minions powers were, you'll notice that when something needed killing he sent Gothmog.


I don't recall direct references to him ever raising any mountains, though it wouldn't surprise me if he had erected the mountains around Mordor and Mount Doom. But then again, I also don't recall references to raising mountains expending power permanently that way (if it did, all of the world-shaping the Valar did before the coming of living creatures into the world would have left them significantly weakened), but rather that permanent power expenditures came form twisting creatures to create new minions or corrupting regions to establish your influence over it or prevent unwanted influence (i.e. Morgoth doing that to the River Sirion to weaken Ulmo's ability to aid the Elves).

Ahh but Morgoth did steadily lose power with the more he changed things. By the end, he couldn't even change his shape. But then again, you maybe right. I concede I am too lazy to look for it even if it's there.



Oh, certainly they weren't a mistake. Merely not a direct creation of his - not something which he expended any power making. They were corrupted by the Nine and the One. The Nine were not created by Sauron, but by the Elves, only using his lore - hence their corruption, with no expenditure of power on Sauron's part. The One he did create, but in a way that augmented, not decreased, his power, as I noted before. Thus, an indirect creation, and no loss of power on his part in creating them.


This, however, is wrong. Sauron forged (or had a hand in forging) all the 7 and the 9 and the many for the elves rings save the 3 made by Celebrimbor (who only used his lore). Whether he lost power in creating them, I don't know. Again, too lazy to check. We'll concede you're right on it though.

[Zevox]

The thing is Gothmog slew a number of kings/princes of the Noldor, namely mortally wounding Feanor and slaying High King Fingon outright. These two Noldor were probably much more powerful individually than either Gil-Galad or Elendil even if you just go by the fact that powers tended to decline the younger the people in question are.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Remember that Gil-Galad in particular was the son of Turgon, not at all removed from that First Age generation of Elven heroes. And Sauron was fighting both at once, not one at a time the way Gothmog fought Fingon and Feanor (and remember that all of the Balrogs fought Feanor - Gothmog struck the mortal wound, but did not one-on-one him).

We also have no reason to believe that Gothmog having those kills under his belt while Sauron does not makes him more powerful of a combatant. Again, Sauron rarely fought, so of course he'll have fewer such kills than Gothmog. That's beside the point. The reality is, Sauron was the more powerful Maia, thus the more powerful combatant. Even if you could make an argument for Gothmog being physically stronger (and we lack the information to say that for certain), Sauron's exceptional command of magic surely is plenty to counter that.


I think in a straight up battle Gothmog would dominate Sauron
Oh, certainly not. Being both Maia capable of impressive feats, any fight between them would not be "dominated" by either.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

The reality is, Sauron was the more powerful Maia, thus the more powerful combatant.

No, your logic is flawed. Who is the most powerful of the Valar (other than Melkor)? Manwe.

Who is regarded as the best combatant of the Valar? Tulkas.

Power =/= Combat ability.

[Weezer]

I agree with Dienekes, pure power does not translate into combat ability, especially in middle earth where magical ability tends to be far more subtle than brute strength.


We also have no reason to believe that Gothmog having those kills under his belt while Sauron does not makes him more powerful of a combatant. Again, Sauron rarely fought, so of course he'll have fewer such kills than Gothmog. That's beside the point. The reality is, Sauron was the more powerful Maia, thus the more powerful combatant. Even if you could make an argument for Gothmog being physically stronger (and we lack the information to say that for certain), Sauron's exceptional command of magic surely is plenty to counter that.

The problem with this is that we need some way to measure combat ability and the best way of doing this is through what enemies they have defeated. While comparing the combats that Sauron and Gothmog have been involved in isn't a perfect way to demonstrate which is superior its better than saying that Sauron was most powerful so he'd clearly win. Power demonstrates itself in many ways and Saurons undeniably impressive feats have all been more subtle, magical enchantments, corruptions and deceptions with very few if any demonstrated physical power. Gothmog on the other hand is shown multiple times as a physical powerhouse while he is very clearly lacking in the magic/manipulation department.



Oh, certainly not. Being both Maia capable of impressive feats, any fight between them would not be "dominated" by either.


Dominate was a bad choice of words, but i think that Gothmog would end up victorious.

[Zevox]

The mountains around Mordor are not a natural creation (I'm fairly sure, that's how Tolkien explained it)
As I said, I don't recall a specific reference to such, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.


The raise the dead bit was a reference to the ringwraiths who are not alive or dead and the barrow-wight. And that he was "the Necromancer" but I know, I know that the title had nothing to do with undeath but still the imagery is good.
But Undeath is not the same as raising the dead. And even if it were, the Ringwraiths transitioned from life into undeath, not died then were reanimated. Besides which, I'd tend not to describe spirit-based undead like the Nazgul in particular as "raising the dead" myself - seems more of a "forcing the dead to linger on" kind of situation. And the Barrow-Wights were the product of the Witch King, not Sauron (it was he who led Angmar to defeat the Northern Kingdoms - Sauron never went there).


When those two defeat a bodyguard of elite trolls we'll talk.
Right, because those exist in their day. And their deeds in the war prior to defeating Sauron, which are never made specific but are praised, particularly in Gil-Galad's case during the battle outside Mordor on the plains of Dagorlad, count for nothing. (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age: "Against Aeglos the spear of Gil-Galad none could stand; and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light ofthe sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil.")


Them being as strong as Ecthelion run counter to Tolkien design that the power of everything diminishes with the ages.
Yet, as I said before, Gil-Galad was the son of Turgon, born in the First Age himself and did not participate in its battles only because he was sent away to ensure that the heir of the High King would not perish and the Noldor be left totally leaderless. And I am speaking of the two working in tandem being as great a challenge as Ecthelion, not of either one being his equal. Remember also that Tolkien tends to have nobles be greater warriors than others, particularly royalty, as both of these were, while Ecthelion was not.


Again, those two slew Sauron by your standards at the very height of all his power with the ring firmly on finger. Gothmog got beaten at his weakest.
Wait, how was Gothmog at his weakest? Nothing indicates he was in poor form that day, and he even had his Troll bodyguards with him, as you've repeatedly said. The other Balrogs were even there, though perhaps not with him for that particular fight. Are you referring to his being doused in water, something which only happened when the killing blow was struck, and was perhaps itself the killing blow? How exactly would that qualify for him suddenly being at his weakest in that fight?


It doesn't mean he wouldn't either.
Quite so. Yet I am not asserting that, merely saying that assuming Gothmog could defeat Sauron based on their respective combat records is poor reasoning.


Ahh but Morgoth did steadily lose power with the more he changed things. By the end, he couldn't even change his shape. But then again, you maybe right. I concede I am too lazy to look for it even if it's there.
Er, yes, when he used his power to corrupt or empower his minions, such as the Balrogs, Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, etc etc, or to corrupt or place his influence upon the terrain, such as with Sirion. There's no indication that altering the landscape physically, such as when raising mountains, causes such a loss of power.


This, however, is wrong. Sauron forged (or had a hand in forging) all the 7 and the 9 and the many for the elves rings save the 3 made by Celebrimbor (who only used his lore).
Nope. Of the Rings of Power and the Third:

"Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and bring them under his vigilance.

Now the Elves made many rings; but Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others [...]

[...] and [Sauron] came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained their making without his lore and counsel."

They learned from him, the smiths took tought and made the rings, he guided their labours, they made many rings while he made one, they could not have made them without his lore and counsel - does any of that, sound like Sauron directly forged or participated in forging them? Closest is "guided their efforts," which seems at most to imply he oversaw them and dispensed advice during the process, not that he participated directly.

As for the matter of the Three, it does say that Celebrimbor alone forged them, yet it seems implied, since they were still subject to the One, that it was done with Sauron's lore. He merely did not help counsel and guide their making as with the others.


No, your logic is flawed. Who is the most powerful of the Valar (other than Melkor)? Manwe.

Who is regarded as the best combatant of the Valar? Tulkas.

Power =/= Combat ability.
Fair enough, yet I do not believe that proves the case of Gothmog vs Sauron. See below for more on that.


I agree with Dienekes, pure power does not translate into combat ability, especially in middle earth where magical ability tends to be far more subtle than brute strength.

The problem with this is that we need some way to measure combat ability and the best way of doing this is through what enemies they have defeated. While comparing the combats that Sauron and Gothmog have been involved in isn't a perfect way to demonstrate which is superior its better than saying that Sauron was most powerful so he'd clearly win. Power demonstrates itself in many ways and Saurons undeniably impressive feats have all been more subtle, magical enchantments, corruptions and deceptions with very few if any demonstrated physical power. Gothmog on the other hand is shown multiple times as a physical powerhouse while he is very clearly lacking in the magic/manipulation department.
Here, I think, we have a major disagreement on the matter. Yes, in Middle Earth magic tends to be more subtle than brute strength - tends to be. Yet is not always. We have, for instance, mention in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, during the siege of Barad-Dur, losses that the allied armies suffered to Sauron's magic directly. "[...] and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy." So plainly, Sauron's magic is far from only being of the subtle variety. (The fact that his sorcerous powers were first brought up in the context of an attack he was making on an Elven stronghold seems also to indicate that.)

Consider also that if pure brute force decided every battle or magic could not be a significant force in battle, Gandalf would surely have had to lose outright to Durin's Bane, which was by far his superior in that area. Yet they both slew each other. And Gandalf speaks of thunder and lightning and falling ice in their battle at the peak, clear indications of him using magic to do battle with the Balrog - as we would expect, from someone who calls himself a wizard. And his limited powers in his human form were enough to slay that Balrog. What do you suppose, then, that Sauron might be capable of in that regard by comparison?

Nor need subtler magic be useless in a fight. He was described in the quote I gave previously as a "master of shadows and phantasms" - what better way to counter an opponent who, as Gothmog does, relies on mainly or purely physical might? Illusions, misdirection, these things can do a lot in a fight if used properly. Even if we assume that Sauron is physically overmatched, do not assume that his magical powers, subtle or otherwise, cannot be of significant help to him in a fight.

Zevox

[Dienekes]

Wait, how was Gothmog at his weakest? Nothing indicates he was in poor form that day, and he even had his Troll bodyguards with him, as you've repeatedly said. The other Balrogs were even there, though perhaps not with him for that particular fight. Are you referring to his being doused in water, something which only happened when the killing blow was struck, and was perhaps itself the killing blow? How exactly would that qualify for him suddenly being at his weakest in that fight?

The water was him at his weakest. Judging from the Gandalf Durin's Bane fight when the balrog got doused he fled only turning to fight when his flame was up again. Now we're not given details exactly as to what happened, but it seems to me that since balrogs do survive water that it couldn't be what killed him, however, it greatly drained him. Again inference since we are only give a brief description.



Quite so. Yet I am not asserting that, merely saying that assuming Gothmog could defeat Sauron based on their respective combat records is poor reasoning.

fallible reasoning? Yes, but does that make it wrong? No. Simply as your statement that power=combat prowess was fallible reasoning. You may still be right, as I see you cling to later on, just as I will cling to this.



Er, yes, when he used his power to corrupt or empower his minions, such as the Balrogs, Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, etc etc, or to corrupt or place his influence upon the terrain, such as with Sirion. There's no indication that altering the landscape physically, such as when raising mountains, causes such a loss of power.

It's a scarring of Eru's song. I assumed it was the same. Again, I don't recall a statement for or against the position, it simply seemed as a logical conclusion to me. It may of course be wrong.



Nope. Of the Rings of Power and the Third:

But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did

This was exactly what I meant. He had control of the project.



Fair enough, yet I do not believe that proves the case of Gothmog vs Sauron. See below for more on that.

Fair enough, it is simply pointing out that you're previous statement was in error.



Here, I think, we have a major disagreement on the matter. Yes, in Middle Earth magic tends to be more subtle than brute strength - tends to be. Yet is not always. We have, for instance, mention in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, during the siege of Barad-Dur, losses that the allied armies suffered to Sauron's magic directly. "[...] and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy." So plainly, Sauron's magic is far from only being of the subtle variety. (The fact that his sorcerous powers were first brought up in the context of an attack he was making on an Elven stronghold seems also to indicate that.)

Consider also that if pure brute force decided every battle or magic could not be a significant force in battle, Gandalf would surely have had to lose outright to Durin's Bane, which was by far his superior in that area. Yet they both slew each other. And Gandalf speaks of thunder and lightning and falling ice in their battle at the peak, clear indications of him using magic to do battle with the Balrog - as we would expect, from someone who calls himself a wizard. And his limited powers in his human form were enough to slay that Balrog. What do you suppose, then, that Sauron might be capable of in that regard by comparison?

Except by Tolkien, Gandalf was more powerful than the balrog (being a higher level maiar, even if he was limited as what he could do) the balrog still killed him though, died for it of course. Mayhaps we're actually looking at the battle of Sauron and Gothmog writ small, with the two killing each other. That would be a sight to see.


Nor need subtler magic be useless in a fight. He was described in the quote I gave previously as a "master of shadows and phantasms" - what better way to counter an opponent who, as Gothmog does, relies on mainly or purely physical might? Illusions, misdirection, these things can do a lot in a fight if used properly. Even if we assume that Sauron is physically overmatched, do not assume that his magical powers, subtle or otherwise, cannot be of significant help to him in a fight.

Never assumed they weren't (though I find it hard to see a shadow work against Gothmog, since, you know, he's made of them. Or maybe it'd work better, dunno). But I go back to how they were used in the books, Gothmog kills, Sauron plots. When asking who's the better killer you logically go with Gothmog. When you go with whose a better plotter you go with Sauron. I wouldn't go around saying Gothmog was a better schemer simply because he was the the leader of Morgoth's armies and that infers some ability to plot, it'd be taking what he is shown to have out of context to use it as I wish it could have been used and not as limited as he was.

I believe you are doing the same thing. Sauron is told to be more powerful, and it is easily demonstrated that he was, (did Gothmog almost mind control all of elfdom? No? Oh, yeah he's probably not as powerful then). This does not make him a fighter. He didn't spec himself up for it, and all information we have shows that he avoided combat almost at all costs. Does this certifiably prove he was a worse combatant? Not exactly. Is it a logical inference given the data we are given? Yeah, it seems reasonable. I wouldn't be handing Elrond a bow and telling him to prove he's more powerful (which I think we'd mostly all agree he was) than Legolas by beating him in an archery contest, that's just dumb.

[Cracklord]

It is a misconception that Sauron is the most powerful maiar around. Oh, I'm sure he's handy with a sword, and he killed some pretty impressive heroes, but in a direct fight he gets in he almost always looses. But eventually, he ends up back on top, while the people who beat him rot in the ground.

Sauron's most powerful feature is his mind. He would never get into a situation where he was in this position, and if he did, he'd find some way to turn it to his advantage.

The fact of the matter is, Sauron does not like fighting. That does not mean he can't, it means he doesn't if he can avoid it. Why should he? He has an all but infinite swarm of expendable minions to fall back on. Why risk himself?
Makes him sound like a coward perhaps, but also a pragmatist.

Now, let's imagine they are both in Angbard, it's raining, and Morgoth is bored so he forces them both to fight. It's a touch out of character, but who cares.

What would Sauron do?

Throw the fight. He probably can't win (if Morgoth wanted someone dealt with, he'd either do it himself or send Gothmog. To me, that suggest that Gothmog is the most hefty muscle that the Dark lord has), but Sauron would never let their be a fight in the first place, and if he did, he would simply let Gothmog win then arrange it so the Balrog died or use him as a catspaw. What's the point in wasting power and risking his life? Raw power alone don't make the overlord.

Gothmog is the fighter, Sauron is the leader. Sauron couldn't beat him in a physical confrontation, but I could beat my boss in a fight too. I still take orders from him.

Which is why Sauron would have won but for a very contrived circumstance, and Gothmog died as he lived.


I really tend to not like these threads, but in this case I do feel compelled to point out that Gothmog was killed in single combat with one elf, Ecthelion, one of the lords of Gondolin. So he's not quite as superbadass as people are building him up to be.

Really, Tolkien always made it clear that Sauron was #2 after Morgoth. Just because Gothmog was the heavy who got sent out to fight doesn't mean he had the most power.

And? That doesn't mean a thing. Ecthelion was pretty kickass. Not quite Fingolfin, but a close second.

[WalkingTarget]

From what I can remember (sorry, away from my books):

Mordor existed before Sauron took up residence there (Shelob was there before he set up shop, for example).

The only description we have of the specifics of the Ecthelion/Gothmog fight was from the earlier period where Balrogs were more common but not as tough (Ecthelion had already dispatched 3 other Balrogs by the time of the one-on-one with Gothmog, and had already lost the use of his shield arm). I don't actually have the books with these details, though, so I may have been misinformed (anybody with the History books want to look into that?). All we get in the Silmarillion is that Ecthelion took him out, no further description of how.

As for Maiar/Valar losing "power": controlling the world was their job, but only as far as their "nature" allowed. Manwe could do the standard sky-god stuff, Ulmo is the lord of water, Varda is pretty much in charge of anything involving light, etc. Their identity is synonymous with their function. It seems to be "unnatural" acts that cause problems. Creating an actual, physical, permanent body for oneself is pretty high on the list of unnatural things for an incorporeal spirit to do and is the primary reason I adhere to when thinking about Sauron/Morgoth/Balrogs being stuck in one shape and/or being "killable". Melian probably fell under this as well (and presumably the Wizards to some extent: note that Gandalf was "sent back" by Eru after he died, it wasn't just a case of a Maia re-clothing itself). Sauron was just the only one who found a loophole (by investing himself into a physical object for the purpose of greater control over the physical world).

Relative power scales: I think it entirely possible that Sauron and Gothmog are on par with each other in "power" or whatever, but that their natures are different enough for this to not apply in the same way. The Balrogs were spirits of Fire that Melkor had won over before the world began (Arien, who guides the sun, was an uncorrupted one), but Sauron was a Smith first and foremost which makes him better at building and planning things. I think Morgoth uses this to his advantage when he chooses to make Gothmog his champion in the field (as a force of destruction) but keeps Sauron in the background (where he can plan and scheme). As such, Gothmog would probably win in an arena match but Sauron would win in chess (or your strategy contest of choice).

[Oslecamo]

In a direct duel, Sauron will cheat and scheme as much as he can in order to emerge victoriuous ot at least a mutual beneficial agreement. Probably would use traps and/or cursed items or have a lot of snipers standing by or talk his way out of it.

In a an army confrotation, Sauron zergs down Gothmog with his neverending stream of orcs and mass production monsters, falling back as needed. Sure the other dude has some nasty elite troops, but he just doesn't have any way of quickly replenishing them, and balors and trolls can be overrun by numbers. Or corrupted. Sauron did manage to get the giant "stronger than dragons" spider to work as his guardian after all.

So yeah, unless Sauron is someway forced to play clean, he wins.

[hamishspence]

Going by the book, he didn't so much "get her to be a guardian" as "take advantage of the fact that she lived there"

[Oslecamo]

Is there any pratical diference? He even sent her orcs now and then so she wouldn't go to another place out of hunger!:smallbiggrin:

[Dienekes]

In a an army confrotation, Sauron zergs down Gothmog with his neverending stream of orcs and mass production monsters, falling back as needed. Sure the other dude has some nasty elite troops, but he just doesn't have any way of quickly replenishing them, and balors and trolls can be overrun by numbers. Or corrupted. Sauron did manage to get the giant "stronger than dragons" spider to work as his guardian after all.

Umm, didn't Morgoth also create and mass produce orcs? Enough to be able to fight off the super elves of old and not the much weakened humans of Sauron's time?

Sorry, I'm willing to believe that Sauron could trick his way to victory. That seems entirely his character. But Morgoth's army was >>>>>>>>>>>>> Saurons. And Gothmog ran Morgoth's army.

[hamishspence]

He can't give her orders- put her in his army- etc.

"and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men"

And it's her skin, not her combat abilities, that are "stronger than dragons"- she gets her spidery behind kicked by a Hobbit with an elven knife.

[Telonius]

Depends on the terms of combat and on the terrain.

Sauron is a survivor. He wasn't very effective in combat. He lost quite a number of battles (Huan, Gil-Galad, etc). But when the big battles happened, even when Angband was broken or Numenor vanished beneath the waves, he always lived to fight another day. Running away, corrupting outside of combat, letting other people do the work for him - that was his specialty. Whereas Gothmog died kind of embarrassingly in a duel he didn't really need to fight.

[warty goblin]

Umm, didn't Morgoth also create and mass produce orcs? Enough to be able to fight off the super elves of old and not the much weakened humans of Sauron's time?

Sorry, I'm willing to believe that Sauron could trick his way to victory. That seems entirely his character. But Morgoth's army was >>>>>>>>>>>>> Saurons. And Gothmog ran Morgoth's army.

Except when he didn't. Remember, it was Sauron who ruled Angband after Utumno and the Chaining of Melkor until his return as Morgoth after the destruction of the Trees. Gothmog certainly existed at this time, but was not placed in charge of Angband. Now of course Melkor didn't plan on getting defeated, but it says something that his second largest fortress was under Sauron's control, not Gothmog's.

[Dienekes]

Except when he didn't. Remember, it was Sauron who ruled Angband after Utumno and the Chaining of Melkor until his return as Morgoth after the destruction of the Trees. Gothmog certainly existed at this time, but was not placed in charge of Angband. Now of course Melkor didn't plan on getting defeated, but it says something that his second largest fortress was under Sauron's control, not Gothmog's.

Yes I understand that he ruled, just as Morgoth ruled Gothmog and Sauron. I took this bit to mean that Sauron had usurped Morgoth's position. Which makes a lot of sense since he was the sneaky, intelligent, cunning one. Sauron seems a "decent" ruler while Gothmog never holds a position outside of fighting guy.

If we're counting that as Sauron's army (and not his in the third age) then the army would be fighting itself. And we'd have to guess randomly on who would side with whom as the army tore itself apart.

[Oslecamo]

He can't give her orders- put her in his army- etc.

"and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men"

I believe that if Sauron really needed, he would've found a way of tricking her out of her cave to where he wanted.



And it's her skin, not her combat abilities, that are "stronger than dragons"- she gets her spidery behind kicked by a Hobbit with an elven knife.

So what? Dragons get fragged by tertiary characters with human made weapons! That the spider managed to hold her ground for so much time against a secondary character, with an hexored elven weapon able to kill wraiths themselves, it's actually a sign of her great might!:smallwink:

EDIT:And for the record, the same hobbit who literally stormed one of the towers of Mordor by himself!


Dienekes:Well, if the batle comes down to gaining as much suporters as possible, Sauron has the upper hand again with his trickeries and sweet tongue. The only chance of Gothmog is going bersek and trying to solo Sauron before his troops backstab him.

Wait, not even then he wins, because Sauron would just come back from the dead, and Gothmog doesn't know enough sorcery to stop him from doing so, while Sauron probably was the one who tricked Gothmog into assuming a mortal shape.

[warty goblin]

Yes I understand that he ruled, just as Morgoth ruled Gothmog and Sauron. I took this bit to mean that Sauron had usurped Morgoth's position. Which makes a lot of sense since he was the sneaky, intelligent, cunning one. Sauron seems a "decent" ruler while Gothmog never holds a position outside of fighting guy.

If we're counting that as Sauron's army (and not his in the third age) then the army would be fighting itself. And we'd have to guess randomly on who would side with whom as the army tore itself apart.

My recollection, which is a bit dodgy, is that Angband was under Sauron's control from the beginning. As 2nd in command, he got the 2nd biggest fortress. When Morgoth nee Melkor returned, Sauron handed over the reins of Evil and seems to have gone on to do things involving werewolves and vampires.

[Dienekes]

My recollection, which is a bit dodgy, is that Angband was under Sauron's control from the beginning. As 2nd in command, he got the 2nd biggest fortress. When Morgoth nee Melkor returned, Sauron handed over the reins of Evil and seems to have gone on to do things involving werewolves and vampires.

I'll assume you're right, as it seems very reasonable and I do not have any counter evidence. However, this simply shows that Sauron was a good ruler, which we already knew. He, in this regard, reminds me of Stalin (bare with me) he is the grand organizer, he makes things run he controls the kingdom. When all the cards are laid out he is in the superior position not the generals or combatants.

Of course, this is me reading into it. All the information we're actually given is Sauron gets a kingdom to run and Gothmog does not.

[Trunt]

While it's true that pure power doesn't necessarily translate into physical might, it's still power. It leads to awesome sorcerous power and other things that have been described. Moreover, Sauron isn't an idiot. I'm guessing that there's no imaginable way that Sauron would ever strait up wrestle with Gothmog instead of using those powers. He's not braindead, and sorcery might actually give him a major advantage in a battle with Gothmog, especially the shapeshifting stuff.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They call Me: Thread necromancy.