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Sploosh
2009-10-14, 08:16 PM
Yeah, so a possible DM and a current DM of mine believe that having the -4 to attacks removed from Drunken Master and removing the need for dodge (but still having greater fortitude) would make me too strong.

I tried to compare it to say..anything else. I even told them that having the extra d4 is my version of an extra spell slot (I know, right? Great spell that is) but they thought the cost of a spell slot balanced unlike the unlimited extra 1d4 damage I do.

Could someone more articulate than me put it into simple, small words for them?

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 08:22 PM
"Melee needs all the help it can get"?
"Monks need all the help it can get"?

Sploosh
2009-10-14, 08:24 PM
"Melee needs all the help it can get"?
"Monks need all the help it can get"?

It doesnt work because they never seen good casters besides mine (who I never Batman or DMM cleric) and they already said that this was stronger than any other melee's stuff.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 08:26 PM
You can't put any weapon enchantments on your improvised weapons. That means that you'll never be able to hit incoporeals, as well as miss out on a whole lot of tricks.

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 08:28 PM
It doesnt work because they never seen good casters besides mine (who I never Batman or DMM cleric) and they already said that this was stronger than any other melee's stuff.Well eh, I guess you could compare it to weapon spec? or call it a bad power attack on an already rather underpowered class?

Sir Homeslice
2009-10-14, 08:30 PM
Ask him how frequently a global proficiency in improvised weapons is going to come up, and tell him how ridiculously weak improvised weapons are.

If he insinuated that improvised weapon proficiency is going to come up enough to actually give it a use, then scrap your character and make a spellcaster, he's going to be gunning full force for making melee utterly useless anyways.

If he implies that improvised weaponry isn't going to come up a lot to make a proficiency in them truly useful, then point out that any instances of improvised weaponry being useful enough to justify improvised weapon proficiency is most likely a contrived edge case, and probably STILL not going to be useful.

Sploosh
2009-10-14, 08:36 PM
You can't put any weapon enchantments on your improvised weapons. That means that you'll never be able to hit incoporeals, as well as miss out on a whole lot of tricks.


"well, you can do up to 4 extra damage and that's just starting off. You can get extra d10s and stuff later +2 enchant only gives 2 extra damage"

Alleine
2009-10-14, 08:44 PM
Ask him to allow it for a few sessions or so. If it lives up to his overpowered expectations, it gets banned, if not you get to keep it as-is.

Now you just have to purposely lower your power level so that extra d4 doesn't break the game :smalltongue:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 08:47 PM
"well, you can do up to 4 extra damage and that's just starting off. You can get extra d10s and stuff later +2 enchant only gives 2 extra damage"

I was thinking things like Viscious, Wounding, Souldrinking, Vorpal, Keen, Valorous...

Sploosh
2009-10-14, 08:49 PM
I was thinking things like Viscious, Wounding, Souldrinking, Vorpal, Keen, Valorous...

Oh, I know but that is the answer I got. (Same guy who killed my pc via wounding mind you)

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 08:51 PM
"well, you can do up to 4 extra damage and that's just starting off. You can get extra d10s and stuff later +2 enchant only gives 2 extra damage""My damage is weak anyway"

1D8 + 1D4 = 4.5+2.5 = Average of 7 damage

Greatsword : 2d6 - average of 7 damage

You're jumping through hoops to deal greatsword damage. Woo.

Level 5 drunken master will deal a whopping 2D8 for an average of 9
+2 greatsword is also 9 damage.

Level 9 drunken master will be doing a whopping 1D8+1D12 for an average of 11

+2 flaming greatsword will be doing 3D6+2 for an average of 12.5
+3 greatsword still hits an average of 10 damage (1 less!) with +3 to hit more than you get, not counting the higher BAB and strength focus of a non-monk melee-er.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 08:52 PM
Quite simple: Improved Weapons do less damage by default. Looking at any categories, the improvised weapon always has smaller damage die than the equivalent actual weapon. Therefore, 1d4 just merely makes up for the gap in base weapon damage Drunken Master has to deal with.

And this is without accounting for the enhancement-part already brought up; a +2 weapon has +2 to hit and damage and as per Power Attack, +1 to hit = +2 to damage so as straight damage, that's +6 (!!) to damage. It alone, let alone the smaller damage dice of improvised weapons, makes improvised weapon proficiency in a class focused on improvised weapons perfectly fair.


Oh, and let's not forget that other class levels buy you bonus damage too. Just from Core:
- Rogue gets +1d6 to Sneak Attacks every 2 levels, so 10 levels of Rogue gets you +5d6 to Sneak Attacks and thanks to Greater Invisibility, Hide, Grease (& flat-footed), Flanking, etc. it's almost always available.
- Barbarian gets +2 to hit and +3 to damage (that's +7 to damage by Power Attack conversion) while Raging and gets enough Rage-uses to do it all day with one feat (Extra Rage) or in the 10 levels.
- Fighter gets +2 to damage on 4 and 12. Also +1 to hit on 8. Pretty weak, but in 12 levels it still adds up to +6 damage.

So even with just Core, getting class levels for extra damage isn't in any way unique to Drunken Master. In fact, every martial class has some way of increasing their damage output. Drunken Master just only gets it with Improved Weapons alone vindicating Improved Weapon Proficiency; if he's to compete with classes proficient with their weapons and getting bigger weapon damage increases and base enhancements and bigger base dice, he cannot take -4 on the attacks. Otherwise he's just plain worse.

Xenogears
2009-10-14, 10:36 PM
You can't put any weapon enchantments on your improvised weapons. That means that you'll never be able to hit incoporeals, as well as miss out on a whole lot of tricks.

What if you enchanted a mithril chair leg? Mithril items are always masterwork so should be enchantable and a chair leg sounds like a good improvised weapon to me. Granted still has break chance.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 10:37 PM
You need to be enchanted to hit incorporeal.

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 10:38 PM
What if you enchanted a mithril chair leg? Mithril items are always masterwork so should be enchantable and a chair leg sounds like a good improvised weapon to me. Granted still has break chance.
By default it's not longer improvised if you're enchanting it as a weapon. It then formally becomes a mithril club +1! :smallyuk:

Dracomorph
2009-10-14, 10:45 PM
Because it's just the Drunken Master's way of progressing monk unarmed damage? It doesn't scale otherwise with DM level.

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-14, 10:53 PM
They're not going to believe you. They've already made up their minds, and nothing short of PvP between this and, oh, anything else will convince them otherwise.

Go to the optimization boards and play something from there that's allowed by your DM (don't tell them it's an optimized build).

Then, every time you hit something for 80 bazakhwillion damage, quickly whip out your other build (the drunken master) and show them how much damage it would have done.

Every.

Freaking.

Time.

Eventually, the light of truth will dawn on them - there are scarier melee builds than anything involving Drunken Master! Don't be surprised if this ticks them off, though. No one likes having perspective thrown in their face, but sometimes it's the only way to make a point.

They might respond by banning this build, in which case you should find another one. And another. And another. They have to get it eventually.

I realize this may not help short-term, but you'll get to play that Drunken Master eventually.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-14, 10:56 PM
Could play a powered up caster.

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 10:56 PM
I realize this may not help short-term, but you'll get to play that Drunken Master eventually.
Although eventually may mean "with another group".

AgentPaper
2009-10-14, 11:14 PM
Build a drunken master, and stat out his damage up to 20. Then, compare that to a fighter, with power attack and a greatsword, upgrading it every 4 levels or so with simple properties like flaming and icy. Assume the fighter power attacks enough to bring his to-hit bonus down to what the drunken master's is.

If that doesn't convince them, I'm not sure what will. Don't force the issue, though, especially if you think it's going to affect your friendship with them.

Riffington
2009-10-15, 07:52 AM
they never seen good casters besides mine


Play the drunken master without any special boosters. Since nobody else in your group makes characters as powerful as this board does, you'll fit right in. You get to play the character you want, they get to be at the same level of power as you, everyone wins.

Now, if they end up making stronger characters and it looks like you aren't contributing by comparison after a few sessions, ask if he has any suggestions to help make you more effective. At that point, he'll probably be more open to reworking the class or giving you a cool item or whatever.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-15, 08:55 AM
They can't identify broken classes, you want to play broken classes ... you're both doing it wrong.

Jayabalard
2009-10-15, 08:58 AM
They're not going to believe you. They've already made up their minds, and nothing short of PvP between this and, oh, anything else will convince them otherwise.

Go to the optimization boards and play something from there that's allowed by your DM (don't tell them it's an optimized build).

Then, every time you hit something for 80 bazakhwillion damage, quickly whip out your other build (the drunken master) and show them how much damage it would have done.I agree, this has a decent chance of fixing your problem... though it has an equally high chance that the way it will fix it is by making sure that you're no longer playing with that group anymore, and at least some chance of you having to remove a d4 from a body orifice.

seriously, acting like an asshat is not the way to deal with this sort of situation.

Indon
2009-10-15, 09:06 AM
It doesnt work because they never seen good casters besides mine (who I never Batman or DMM cleric) and they already said that this was stronger than any other melee's stuff.

So, since it's clear your group's power curve isn't very high, I'm curious as to if you think that without this, your character would fall behind said curve.

That is to say, will your character actually underperform in that campaign without this?

kamikasei
2009-10-15, 09:11 AM
They can't identify broken classes, you want to play broken classes ... you're both doing it wrong.

Where are you getting the part in bold from?

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 10:27 AM
Where are you getting the part in bold from?Well drunken master is pretty broken... just on the other end of the spectrum than the usual meaning.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-15, 10:41 AM
So, since it's clear your group's power curve isn't very high, I'm curious as to if you think that without this, your character would fall behind said curve.

That is to say, will your character actually underperform in that campaign without this?

Very good point here. Why do you need a drunken master? Specifically, why do you need a drunken master with this ability? You seem to have a reasonable amount of system mastery, as opposed to some of your groupmates. Can't you succeed despite this handicap?

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 10:49 AM
A charging barbarian will outdamage him pretty much every time anyway.

Riffington
2009-10-15, 10:56 AM
A charging barbarian will outdamage him pretty much every time anyway.

Only if you know how to use power attack.

Vangor
2009-10-15, 10:59 AM
I imagine the problem is you purposefully are not creating a powerful character, and losing improvised weapons would simply be an additional, unnecessary blow for what amounts to a rather flavorful character. My suggestion is Unarmed Swordsage, simply because the features do not appear as readily powerful as many others without a decent understanding of the way martial adepts work, and somehow I am doubtful whomever is saying the Drunken Master is overpowered has an understanding of how much of the game works. However, I am not saying to choose the Swordsage to spite the DM or others, but merely because you can tie your hands and be competent, and as necessary break the current enemy.

This is how I am tending to play when not DMing, the DMM Maximize Shivering Touch doesn't come out until the Black Dragon is breathing death on my group.


Only if you know how to use power attack.

What is rather amusing is I recently logged in to play DDO, what with its being technically free, and I realize how still new to me the concept of 3.0 was for me (we were still using 1X/XX Strength) because my level five fighter (six Feats) lacked Power Attack...

On the other hand, my Orc Barbarian in a recent campaign at level two was doing 18 minimum damage while raging with a +0 to hit with an oversized tree branch.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 11:01 AM
Only if you know how to use power attack.Even without power attack, the 2h barbarian is still reliably hitting more often for near equivalent damage. :smalltongue: If they're not managing to have overly heavy improvised weapons (11-25lb range), then the barbarian always outdamages due to 1.5 str bonus.

mem0man
2009-10-15, 11:07 AM
You can always dip to Rogue instead to show how sneak attack with fists is worse then using a table as a tower shield and a bottle as a throwing weapon. I mean that is +1d6 every two levels from here on out without trying and without anything beyond the base book.

Who could hate on the Drunken Master. It is a class you can take and actually bring booze to sessions and still be in character. :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-15, 11:27 AM
Here's a simple explanation:

--You're trying to enter a class that focuses on improvised weapons.

--Short of abuse that lets you dual-wield carriages (and relying on the "improvised weapon damage by weight" section of whatever book that's in), improvised weapons never match up the the versatility and power of traditional weapons (even with, say, 3d6 base damage on your tree limb or what-have-you, a +3 flaming wounding Greatsword with it's 19-20 threat range is a better bet every time).

--It's crippling for a melee-centered character already invested in a class without a full base attack bonus (Monk) to enter a class and get, instead of a bonus to hit, a -4 penalty to its primary mode of attack. It's like a fighter who chooses to specialize in the Greatsword taking a level in a PrC that grants -4 BaB at first level for no real benefit, only, due to your lower Base Attack Bonus, you'll be hitting less than the gimped fighter would.

--A 20th level Monk deals 2d10 damage with his fists, and I think the Drunken Master deals a similar amount of damage, with 1d4 added. A 20th level Fighter with a +5 flaming keen greatsword (which still has room for +3 more in enhancements) deals 3d6+5 damage. 2d10+1d4 averages at 5.5+5.5+2.5, or 13.5. 3d6+5 averages at 3.5+3.5+3.5+5, or 15.5. On top of that, you have a 20/x2 threat range, and the fighter has a 17-20/x2 threat range. The fighter also has more attacks, a higher base attack bonus, and +3 more worth of possible enhancements...and most likely a higher strength.

--Even if you DO manage to fight with carriages, you'll deal 5d6+1d4+Str damage: this becomes 3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+3.5+2.5+Str, or 20+Str damage. Notice you're only 4.5 higher than that greatsword fighter. If he tosses frost and corrosive on his weapon, he's winning...and you're at a medium or heavy load from your weapon alone. He's also still got a better threat range, attack bonus, and strength. The Rogue, meanwhile, is tossing about +8d6 or +10d6 to everyone...with your attack bonus. Even he's outdamaging you by a good margin. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2009-10-15, 01:02 PM
Is it OP? No. It's no better than fighting with a cheap-as-free club. Does it make sense for an improvised weapon to be just as good as one designed, balanced, sharpened, etc. for combat? No.

So I think it's a bad idea, but not b/c it's OP.

But wait, you want a class focused on improvised weapons, can't it ju-. No. Get a sword if you want to slay dragons. If you want to get into bar fights, do it without taking multiple levels in a PrC. Just do it. Eat the penalties. Shocking, I know. But wait, you and your whole group are okay with drunken master removing improvised weapon penalties. Okay, fine, whatever, it doesn't break the game. Do it then. But don't expect me to believe that it makes sense.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-15, 01:12 PM
Is it OP? No. It's no better than fighting with a cheap-as-free club. Does it make sense for an improvised weapon to be just as good as one designed, balanced, sharpened, etc. for combat? No.

So I think it's a bad idea, but not b/c it's OP.

But wait, you want a class focused on improvised weapons, can't it ju-. No. Get a sword if you want to slay dragons. If you want to get into bar fights, do it without taking multiple levels in a PrC. Just do it. Eat the penalties. Shocking, I know. But wait, you and your whole group are okay with drunken master removing improvised weapon penalties. Okay, fine, whatever, it doesn't break the game. Do it then. But don't expect me to believe that it makes sense.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/darth-kitty.png

How little imagination you must have.

Tavar
2009-10-15, 01:16 PM
ericgrau completely right. I mean, it's not like people can cast magic spells by saying gibberish and waving their hands, or asking a god for power, or turn into animals in order to eat your face off, or survive 5000 ft drops and still be in tip-top shape, or have a get of flame completely fill a room and come out unscathed. Yeah, nothing unrealistic in the least. Not in DnD. No Sir.

Person_Man
2009-10-15, 01:18 PM
I think you can accomplish everything a Monk/Drunken Master gets via another build without houserules.


Evasion: Accessible via dozens of different classes/PrC or a ring.
Bonus feats: Ditto.
AC bonus: Ditto.
Drink Like A Demon: Nerfed Rage or magical buff.
Speed Bonus: Boots of Speed.
Improvised Weapons: Minor damage bonus. Also, a -4 penalty to hit can easily be overcome with any +4 bonus, from BAB, Str, buffs, whatever.
Stagger: Tumble and Psionic Charge and/or any form of Free Movement (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).
Swaying Waist: Minor AC bonus.
For Medicinal Purposes: Any method of healing.
Corkscrew Rush: Knockback, and a few magic items.
Breath of Flame: Although the fact that it's a Free Action is nice, it's pretty much a minor (3d12) fire based attack.


Besides the hilarious fluff, there's really nothing that useful about Drunken Master that you can't accomplish with a SRD only Psychic Warrior, or a Totemist, or a Swordsage, or a dozen other builds.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-15, 01:29 PM
Besides the hilarious fluff


Wait, people take Drunken Master for anything other than the hilarious fluff?

Sliver
2009-10-15, 02:20 PM
Is it OP? No. It's no better than fighting with a cheap-as-free club. Does it make sense for an improvised weapon to be just as good as one designed, balanced, sharpened, etc. for combat? No.

Proficiency has nothing to do with how the weapon is made and is built for combat, only with how well you know how to use it as such. A sorc has the penalty with anything but the simple weapon, not because the other weapons are not balanced for combat, but because he didn't train to use them. A DM (Drunken Master, not Dungeon Master) is exactly that, he did work on using random junk for battles or bar fights or w/e..

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 02:22 PM
Wait, people take Drunken Master for anything other than the hilarious fluff?

The ability to melee effectively with a 30' ladder (with 30' reach) strikes me as one of them. Other than that, nah.

Person_Man
2009-10-15, 02:44 PM
The ability to melee effectively with a 30' ladder (with 30' reach) strikes me as one of them. Other than that, nah.

Again, anyone can use a ladder as a weapon with a -4 penalty (although I don't know a DM who would allow it to have 30 ft of reach, even with Drunken Master). Any full BAB build will probably have an easier time of hitting compared to a 3/4 BAB Monk/Drunken Master with MAD.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 02:51 PM
Again, anyone can use a ladder as a weapon with a -4 penalty (although I don't know a DM who would allow it to have 30 ft of reach, even with Drunken Master). Any full BAB build will probably have an easier time of hitting compared to a 3/4 BAB Monk/Drunken Master with MAD.

What if it is a +3 holy dwarf-bane levitating 30ft ladder, a major artifact of the god of hights? Darn.. not improvised anymore...

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 02:51 PM
Drunken Master 4 states that it retains the properties of the weapon:


Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length, and improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts. Finally, large objects with broad, flat surfaces (such as tables) can be upended to become improvised tower shields.


So yea, you could use a 30' ladder as a 30' reach weapon, while Mr FullBABX couldn't. Not saying its the greatest ability in the world, but when you have little to work with, you gotta take what you can get and use it to the fullest extent you can!

Sliver
2009-10-15, 02:56 PM
Drunken Master 4 states that it retains the properties of the weapon:


So yea, you could use a 30' ladder as a 30' reach weapon, while Mr FullBABX couldn't. Not saying its the greatest ability in the world, but when you have little to work with, you gotta take what you can get and use it to the fullest extent you can!

Can you use people too? I heard Kensai can enchant themselves right? Do they still count as improvised weapons? A +1 flaming kensai?

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 02:59 PM
Insert meme about drunken masters duel wielding drunken kensai's who are duel wielding drunken kensai's who are duel wielding drunken kensai's.

Just...don't...roll...a 1. It won't be pretty.

Indon
2009-10-15, 03:00 PM
Drunken Master 4 states that it retains the properties of the weapon:


So yea, you could use a 30' ladder as a 30' reach weapon, while Mr FullBABX couldn't. Not saying its the greatest ability in the world, but when you have little to work with, you gotta take what you can get and use it to the fullest extent you can!

Now, the question is, could you use Drunken Master in conjunction with a hyper-strength build to wield the planet as an improvised weapon, thus granting you a melee reach over the entire planet?

Furthermore, if you used the planet as an improvised melee weapon, what would happen if you broke it?

Edit: I think in conjunction with War Hulk, this tops the Locate City bomb!

Keld Denar
2009-10-15, 03:02 PM
Earthquakes are just Chuck Norris using the earth as an improvised weapon. Take 5743897563489573453d6 + 1d4 damage.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 03:02 PM
Now, the question is, could you use Drunken Master in conjunction with a hyper-strength build to wield the planet as an improvised weapon, thus granting you a melee reach over the entire planet?

Furthermore, if you used the planet as an improvised melee weapon, what would happen if you broke it?

Edit: I think in conjunction with War Hulk, this tops the Locate City bomb!well first you'd need to have flight.

Sploosh
2009-10-15, 03:08 PM
Earthquakes are just Chuck Norris using the earth as an improvised weapon. Take 5743897563489573453d6 + 1d4 damage.

That d4 has got to go.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 03:12 PM
Insert meme about drunken masters duel wielding drunken kensai's who are duel wielding drunken kensai's who are duel wielding drunken kensai's.

Just...don't...roll...a 1. It won't be pretty.
?
http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/7820/strongkevin1tl.jpg

But indeed, the d4.. Its just too much. How would you nerft the DM to make it more balanced? Like a druid.. Its white because I am ashamed.

Indon
2009-10-15, 03:13 PM
There is no D4. Chuck Norris would have at least an effective Monk level of 1, which would raise his unarmed damage to a D6.

Edit: To make myself clear, when Chuck Norris uses a weapon, it uses his unarmed damage - because Chuck Norris is a weapon.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 03:20 PM
because Chuck Norris is a weapon.

Yet trying to wield him would give you 101 negative levels for a year and a day, and will get you roundhouse kicked.

Indon
2009-10-15, 03:24 PM
Yet trying to wield him would give you 101 negative levels for a year and a day, and will get you roundhous kicked.

Not to mention his Ego score.