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FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 12:28 AM
At my last session with my D&D buddies, who are friends from high school and college, I had my first major blow up regarding D&D. I really got into it with a good friend over one line that he said to me: "We just were trying to keeping the party together."

The game is 3.5 and underwater, level 3. Originally the party was an Aventi Paladin (me), Merfolk Druid (my then pregnant friend), and three Naga (Warcraft D20) each a Ranger, Beguiler (the only evil alignment but has it hidden), & a Swordsage/Warblade (I forget which). In this setting, the Naga were defeated by the Aventi along with several other races and are basically the Nazi Germany to the Aventi's Allies. Long story short, the Merfolk Druid had to drop out due to real life issues (Jack was born on October 1st. ^.^) So my only in character ally was gone.

A session later, I was going a solo run to meet up with the Naga (They call themselves the NN). I ran into a village being slaughtered by Saguin. I had wrongly heard that they all left except for the purple cloaked leader. Instead, they were all still there but I still went for it. I was as good as dead until the DM went easy on me. Then the leader, who had just ordered the genocide of an entire village of Darfellan, asked me to give a message to my leaders which was basically "You're next." As my character, I openly refused and called him scum. The beguiler player blew up, who always has had problems with people playing paladins, and said I was basically asking to be killed. He said that my character concept was getting in the way the game and the party. Remember that.

So later that same session we halted a meeting between Drows and Saguin killing the Drow first (leaving two for interrogating and one for the Beguiler to brainwash; my Pally doesn't know what's her fate.) Then we posed as the Drow to defeat the Saguin. As with the first session, our group split up and went back to our separate bases while still not trusting each other.

Last Saturday, I somehow sensed that I wasn't going to play alot this time so I started working on a character for later session that night. First a man came into their civilization, took it over, and accused them of mutiny against the military & the king. They fought and killed a few guards, even mounted an attempt to over throw the guy but they failed. So they were forced to leave. At the same time, my commanding officer stormed into my room covered in his own blood. Captain Kirk (who's more Zapp Brannigan than anything, quite awesome though) had been almost killed by a "lady of the night". Hearing that he was being chased, he called out for me to help him escape. ...to the people that were chasing him. So I basically went out and blocked the hallway, passively as I wouldn't hurt my own people. And I was beaten and taken to a prison to be executed to send a message. It turns out that Zapp supposedly tried to kill the queen.

While being read my last rites, Kirk stormed in and saved me. It turns out that he knew nothing about what was said. He suggested we split up and I try to find a plot important item. So here I am, hiding myself from the people as an award is out on my head. The Naga happen to be in the same town and recognize me before I see them. The beguiler instantly casts sleep on me and I roll a nat 1. My character wakes up, is cuffed to a chair, and is tortured for information. Information he would have given up since these people aided him, even though they were on different sides of a past war.

After this, I was released under the basic guise of being a lesser member of the party (a free prisoner). After hearing of the plot item, they wanted to talk to Kirk. Since my character is styled to be the proto-typical JRPG main character, I lead them to him. Kirk was in the Merfolk city and was playing it up big in an inn to a bunch of the females. He suggested, for secrecy, to head up to his room.

Here's where things go horribly wrong. Capt'n says, "So you captured the Naga I suggested you go find, huh?" The beguiler instantly casts sleep on Kirk & I. I roll a nat 1 AGAIN. So now Kirk and I are tied up & tortured for information yet again. Information that was going to flow freely. And in the middle of torturing Kirk in front of my Paladin, they MAKE him order me to work with them.

I was, out of character, very annoyed with all of this. And said so, that I was basically an NPC at this point. That's when the beguiler player said "We just were trying to keeping the party together." I blew up, we got into a huge verbal fight, and he couldn't understand why I was upset that his character concept actually ruined any semblance of party bonding. My Paladin, when NOT being tortured or being sleep'd (the third time by this point), was actively helping them before all of this and even healed them.

I approached the DM about all of this and he agreed that the torturing of Kirk pretty much was unnecessary but shrugged. I spoke, separately, to the ToB Naga player who also thought it was pretty effed up but he ran with it. So now I'm stuck in a party where I'm an outcast. Meanwhile, the beguiler is starting a cult of brainwashing starting with the drow.

Was I right in being upset?

arguskos
2009-10-15, 12:42 AM
Yes, though a blow-up was not a good response (it never really is after all). My advice? Leave the group. The Beguiler's player is being a bastard and most likely knows it, especially when he's disregarding other players and giving lame excuses about it.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 12:45 AM
I don't think the campaign is headed anywhere good at this point. You should probably have a long OOC discussion about expectations and start a new campaign; or just leave the group.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 12:46 AM
Yes, though a blow-up was not a good response (it never really is after all). My advice? Leave the group. The Beguiler's player is being a bastard and most likely knows it, especially when he's disregarding other players and giving lame excuses about it.

Not an option, as I'm a DM for them (we trade every weekend) and it's just a friends spat. Besides, it's never gotten to the point where I completely stopped having fun.

arguskos
2009-10-15, 12:48 AM
Not an option, as I'm a DM for them (we trade every weekend) and it's just a friends spat. Besides, it's never gotten to the point where I completely stopped having fun.
It's ALWAYS an option. That sort of behavior is unacceptable, even between friends, ESPECIALLY between friends! If my friends ever did that to me without a warning or my permission OOC, I'd be REALLY pissed off and would be looking for blood and vengeance.

I say walk away from that game, and be clear in yours that such behavior isn't tolerated, since it ruins fun for all involved.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 12:54 AM
It's ALWAYS an option. That sort of behavior is unacceptable, even between friends, ESPECIALLY between friends! If my friends ever did that to me without a warning or my permission OOC, I'd be REALLY pissed off and would be looking for blood and vengeance.

I say walk away from that game, and be clear in yours that such behavior isn't tolerated, since it ruins fun for all involved.

See, the thing is that it's not his actions that made me mad. In fact, I was playing along with it and even pretended to get shocked. I was annoyed, yes, but not mad. At least not until the topic line came up. It's more having to do with how he views a Paladin should be played against... Well everyone else that's played a Paladin other than the Ranger player (who plays a Gnome Paladin prankster of Garl Glittergold and has a golden dragon he's raising).

No matter what we, the only two that have tried to play Paladins (the ToB Naga player and I), have been wrong in one way or another. When... I don't think what we've done have been that far off the mark. Believe me when I say, I love all these guys and our group. I wouldn't dream of leaving because they are that awesome. This was just an unfortunate incident that I had to blow out steam over.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 12:59 AM
Being upset is fine, no one likes being forced to do stuff he wouldn't want his character to do, for no reason at that..

You don't want to leave, and it's not always an option that people would want to take (I didn't. I left my group, friends, with greate unease and I still struggle to find an online gaming group.. time zones and such are a great pain).

It looks like the others just flow with it so I don't really think an OOC talk with any of them would change much, so here I think you should bend a bit and do something to change yourself. That paladin is becoming an NPC, so talk to your DM about leaving it as such and make a new character that works better with the evil beguiler, as it looks like he is setting the tone of the game. Be sure that you like the concept, but you should try to be flexible here. Or be an elf next, to be immune to sleep.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 01:04 AM
Or be an elf next, to be immune to sleep.

*Snorted very loudly at this.*

It's funny because it's true.

Yeah, I think switching out might be a better option at this point but at the same time... This game was made because the beguiler and I wanted to play an underwater game. Me for the shark mount, a la Lien, and him for the interest. Somewhere along the way, our shared interest lead to two different paths.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 01:22 AM
You could take the LE paladin variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures). Fiendish sharks.. Be of the beguiler's race or cult or w/e and have the same goal or something, so that he won't have a reason to put you to sleep, or an elf/warforged/something else so he won't be able to do so...

Edit: although the paladin would be best if you want a shark as a special mount like Lien, it does come late for a paladin (and you aren't there, or sleep wouldn't work against both you and another NPC..) so you might want to make a NE or C/LN druid..

karnokoto
2009-10-15, 01:22 AM
I can completely understand your feelings towards the Beguiler player and you were very justified in feeling that way, but blowing up at him (or anyone) is never the right response.

Our group had a similar experience recently.
We have a less-than-amiable (and very unlawful, but not to the point of being evil) rogue and an honourbound paladin-type in our group. It goes without saying they dont always get along.
Earlier in the campaign we hooked up with what was essentially Blackbeard- the scourge of the seas. Who had a teleporting pirate ship. INCREDIBLY useful, especially since we were allied with this pirate.
Our paladin was a prince of an incredibly small, incredibly dead kingdom- no one lived there. Long story. But our base of operations when not adventuring was in the old palace. Anyway, we offered a secret underground cavern that you could come in from off the sea as a safe berth for this pirate.

Story came around to where we were discussing things with what was basically the military general in a country that HAAAATES pirates. The paladin character tells this general where the pirate is and that there is a secret cavern where he makes berth.

Now, not only were we getting a cut of the booty from letting him dock there, but also free instantaneous transportation AND more political clout with the guild we all originated from. He was basically our meal ticket.
Sooo this general rouses his navy and kills the pirate and his entire fleet.
Basically the paladin caused a political fustercluck all because he was 'playing his character.'
We're all staring at him going 'whaaaat is wrong with you?' So now the rogue is planning to kill him in his sleep and my chaotic bard may not be too far away from helping the schmuck. BUT, we're nice people, and I doubt it will actually happen. None of us blew up at the ninny, although we all politely told him he had just made a huge mistake. He's one of those people that speaks before he thinks. A couple hours later he apologized after he realized what he had done.


Point is, some people just do stupid things, or make characters that totally don't fit with the party. Characters with different alignments or even players that dont actually roleplay the alignment they picked for their character.
You can always solve the situation by speaking calmly, being polite and such...I hate to use a cliche phrase but you really CAN catch more flies with honey.
Why you would want to catch flies I'm not sure, but the point stands.
As for my story, I know everyone is sitting there going 'I'm not even sure how that relates' and honestly, at this point, neither do I...but when I started typing it makes perfect sense and its a big bit of text so I'm certainly not erasing it now. 'Cool story bro' indeed :D

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 01:30 AM
You could take the LE paladin variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures). Fiendish sharks.. Be of the beguiler's race or cult or w/e and have the same goal or something, so that he won't have a reason to put you to sleep, or an elf/warforged/something else so he won't be able to do so...

I'm not so sure Ari (my paladin) would go evil as he is... a mix between Kif Kroker and Tidus from Final Fantasy. Not very likely to see a hyperactive LE Paladin bounce a ball around (Blitzball exists in this world)... Playing a new character with all those sorts of things makes sense too. I dunno, I'll see about it.

@ karnokoto: Oh I completely agree I did the wrong thing. If I could take it back and change the reaction, I totally would have. But I don't have universe changing powers so that's unlikely.

karnokoto
2009-10-15, 01:40 AM
@ karnokoto: Oh I completely agree I did the wrong thing. If I could take it back and change the reaction, I totally would have. But I don't have universe changing powers so that's unlikely.

I know a guy...

;)

Ceaon
2009-10-15, 01:44 AM
I think the DM should have been a little more active in all this. If he (she?) runs a party with a LG paladin and three Naga, in a setting like this, problems between players are to be expected.

That being said, I vote for rolling up a new character. Maybe someone related to your current character, but with a more evil, pro-Naga streak to him. Then, your current paladin can become an NPC and an enemy or reluctant ally while he works his way up in the paladin organization or whatever.

Also, why is the first advice always given "leave the group"? I'd say that's just problem-avoiding behavior and that doesn't solve anything. Even if you plan to leave a group, talking about it first is almost always better than not talking about it.

arguskos
2009-10-15, 01:50 AM
Also, why is the first advice always given "leave the group"? I'd say that's just problem-avoiding behavior and that doesn't solve anything. Even if you plan to leave a group, talking about it first is almost always better than not talking about it.
It's not always my first response, but it is when the story is one of a really bad player encounter and examples are given of bad play and inability to be a team player (the core of D&D).

In this case, since you've expanded upon the situation and illuminated that this is a highly isolated incident, I'd say talk with him, inform the DM you'd like to reroll into a more "party-friendly" role, and do so. That way, everyone wins. :smallbiggrin:

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 01:59 AM
I think the DM should have been a little more active in all this. If he (she?) runs a party with a LG paladin and three Naga, in a setting like this, problems between players are to be expected.

Well the Merfolk Druid was supposed to be my back up, but when she had to leave that set up the situation you see myself in.


That being said, I vote for rolling up a new character. Maybe someone related to your current character, but with a more evil, pro-Naga streak to him. Then, your current paladin can become an NPC and an enemy of reluctant ally while he works his way up in the paladin organization or whatever.

Honestly, I think you're (and most in the thread saying so) are right. But the masochistic side in me says that I want to see Ari to the end. Though playing an evil character that joins the Naga will most likely be the next course of action. I'm going to give one more session and if problems still arise, I'll ask my DM for a change.

Ceaon
2009-10-15, 02:00 AM
It's not always my first response, but it is when the story is one of a really bad player encounter and examples are given of bad play and inability to be a team player (the core of D&D).

In this case, since you've expanded upon the situation and illuminated that this is a highly isolated incident, I'd say talk with him, inform the DM you'd like to reroll into a more "party-friendly" role, and do so. That way, everyone wins. :smallbiggrin:

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you! I do feel your advice was a bit extreme, but it would have indeed been less so if this hadn't been an isolated event, but everyday torture.


Honestly, I think you're (and most in the thread saying so) are right. But the masochistic side in me says that I want to see Ari to the end. Though playing an evil character that joins the Naga will most likely be the next course of action. I'm going to give one more session and if problems still arise, I'll ask my DM for a change.

You could also ask your DM if you can "edit: Ari. He sees the evil around him, cracks and falls. That would make for interesting roleplaying. Since your DM allows ToB, I'm sure you can ask him to give you some special or boon for playing a fallen paladin.

arguskos
2009-10-15, 02:03 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you! I do feel your advice was a bit extreme, but it would have indeed been less so if this hadn't been an isolated event, but everyday torture.
No offense taken. I just prefer to explain my actions. The way it was presented at first, it wasn't clear if this was the last straw or some one-time offense. The former is "leave time". The latter is "talk it over, possible re-roll" time. :smallcool:

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-15, 02:18 AM
You could also ask your DM if you can "edit: Ari. He sees the evil around him, cracks and falls. That would make for interesting roleplaying. Since your DM allows ToB, I'm sure you can ask him to give you some special or boon for playing a fallen paladin.

Eh... I have a love/hate relationship with ToB. I like some of the concepts but the ridiculous dice rolls are a bit too much for me... Plus I like Ari too much and having him fall would be depressing considering he's only one of two good guys that knows all that's happened. A newer character would be better if I was to switch out.

Solaris
2009-10-15, 02:23 AM
Why not ask the other players to play a more Good-friendly party?

Sliver
2009-10-15, 04:16 AM
Why not ask the other players to play a more Good-friendly party?

Because, if after such a blow-up, it seems that he is the only one that has problems with the style of the game so far..

But you might be able to work a solution.. such as "Ari already works with you, not against you. I ready an action to smite as soon as you cast sleep next time"

Solaris
2009-10-15, 08:21 AM
Because, if after such a blow-up, it seems that he is the only one that has problems with the style of the game so far..

But you might be able to work a solution.. such as "Ari already works with you, not against you. I ready an action to smite as soon as you cast sleep next time"

From what I gather, the torture was the beguiler's idea and the other player just went along with it. The beguiler's player coerced the OP into playing the way he wanted to play. Why should the OP change, when the beguiler's just as much an offender? The OP paladin, from what was posted, hasn't really hindered play - even though he wanted to stop the beguiler from making a brainwashed cult. Heck, I'm pretty sure Ari fell simply from associating with this beguiler.
Then again, I've always had little patience for people wanking to fantasies about being the bad guy in my D&D game. It looks to me like this beguiler, who's used his magic to force the paladin's player around, is the sort of evil character who doesn't play well with others.

Glyde
2009-10-15, 08:51 AM
Out of all of this, the thing that springs to my mind the most is that he slept a third level character and a no-way-hes-first-level NPC. Sleep only affects up to 4 HD of creatures, if I understand correctly, unless there's something about the beguiler I'm missing.


Anyway, this is a case of the player being controlled by the character, not the other way around. Your beguiler friend is most certainly in the wrong in the fact that he makes assumptions that aren't true and won't listen to reason. It's possible, though, that he's only acting as he thinks his character should act.

And I wouldn't want to meet that character in a dark alley. 7 int can be a dangerous thing, I suppose.


I'm going to join the "Smite his face off" group. That's always fun.

Dacia Brabant
2009-10-15, 09:01 AM
I think if you have to make a new character then the beguiler should have to make a new one as well, since he's just as guilty of trying to dictate playstyle and course of action to the party as you are, actually much moreso, and certainly his fun should not be at another player's expense. PvP should only be allowed when both players have consented to it and are ready/expecting it.

Maybe you could switch roles, have you be the jerkass anti-hero and he can be the goody-goody Pollyanna type--you could roll up a Paladin of Tyranny and he can be a, oh I don't know, how about a mermaid Bard?

*Under the sea, under the sea, there'll be no accusations, just friendly crustaceans, under the seeeaaaa!*

:smallwink:

woodenbandman
2009-10-15, 09:09 AM
Okay so you need to have a talk with this player. Be like "hey man wtf was that?" Ask him to explain his side of the story first, so that he won't get defensive, and then explain to him your side. Say "look, man. I don't want to have trouble with you. I was your ally through the whole thing. But you're really pushing it with your unnecessary torture, and if you push it much further, I'll have to retaliate. Can we try just being friends in-character?"

If he pulls something about "paladins are blah," cut him off and say "paladin is a game concept, and I interpret my paladin this way. Don't respond to what you think a paladin is, respond to my character."

I've learned how to be a paladin by playing with a player who just absolutely could not, no matter how hard he tried, be a paladin. He tried so hard in a WoD campaign to be a paladin type guy. My character was just originally rolled to be a joke character, a drunken kung-fu master, who eventually turned into a paladin (and a bearded norseman). Here's a few tips I have on being a paladin, which you may not need but may find useful to explain to this guy.

1: It's Good first, then Lawful. A paladin is a champion of good who will not stray from his moral code. He is not the local inquisitor who donates to charity. There are exceptions, though. If you, as a paladin, could save the world by breaking your moral code, you would do it and suffer for it after. I believe that a paladin should be expected to break his moral code, not by design, but just in the interest of doing the most good. That means that your DM shouldn't constantly manufacture situations where you could potentially break your code, but if you find a solution that involves breaking your moral code, if the benefits are high enough, you should do it.

2: The paladin's code fits on one side of a bar napkin. Among other things, it means that the law of the land is not the paladin's code. A paladin can break laws without falling, but he'll usually try not to.

Example: In the society in which our game was set, recreational drug use often resulted in multiple years in jail, because it was seen as a plague on society. The drug dealer I arrested was undeniably a bad man, selling his drugs that were cut with bleach. But there was a kid who didn't deserve to spend his life in jail. So I let him off with a warning he'd never forget. Illegal? Yeah. But I, being an alcoholic, was nobody to judge, and it would've been a senseless waste to put the kid away for 8 years for a bit of coke.

3: There is such thing as a lesser evil. This is huge because most paladins I've heard stories about will beat a peasant for stealing. That is horribly wrong. That peasant needs that bread or coin or whatever he stole. The good thing to do would be to offer reparations to the owner, then try to help the peasant out. (realistically I realize that you can't do this all the time, but once to establish your character should be plenty).

Example: This same guy tried to throw 2 defenseless people out into the zombie apocalypse for having relations in his house. Should they have had relations in his house? No. Is that justification for throwing them out? Only in Oceania.

4: Crime is not evil. Another huge one. A pirate does not, by default, have to be evil. He could be stealing from a corrupt person intentionally. He could be robin hood. Don't judge a book by it's cover. And don't rely so heavily on Detect Evil. Evil doesn't equal smiting. Evil can be redeemed.

The pirate in your case seemed like a pretty okay guy. Unless he happened to kill a few dozen people in cold blood and you forgot to mention it.

Sliver
2009-10-15, 09:40 AM
Why should the OP change, when the beguiler's just as much an offender?

Because the beguiler isn't having problems with how things are going on, and the other players(and DM) don't have issues with it too, so it comes down to OP against beguiler. The beguiler's player could say that this is the way he enjoys the game and the OP is trying to tell him how to play. Without someone else to be on the OP side, only he cares about what how it will roll from here.

So he can try to convince someone that the beguiler's player is ruining the game, something that won't work probably due to others just following up the beguiler's actions (saying "Yeah, you are right, he is wrong" followed by a shrug is not backing you up), or he can just deal with it himself by playing as is and solving it IC, or making a new character, or doing what he doesn't want to do and leave.

jindra34
2009-10-15, 11:35 AM
Honestly Yeah you do have a right to be pretty upset about this. Also I would advise roleplaying it out as part of the solution, your character has been kidnapped and tortured twice by someone you thought to be an ally, the same person tortured your commanding officer, and because you have someone to report to I assume your part of some sort of orginization. Go up the line in game and 'report' the beguiler to your superiors, and I'm pretty sure you can justify staying with the group to watch them and report back to said superiors. I think you get the idea, but the sad thing is that the beguiler in trying to hold the party together probably just shattered it.

hamishspence
2009-10-15, 11:41 AM
1: It's Good first, then Lawful. A paladin is a champion of good who will not stray from his moral code. He is not the local inquisitor who donates to charity. There are exceptions, though. If you, as a paladin, could save the world by breaking your moral code, you would do it and suffer for it after. I believe that a paladin should be expected to break his moral code, not by design, but just in the interest of doing the most good. That means that your DM shouldn't constantly manufacture situations where you could potentially break your code, but if you find a solution that involves breaking your moral code, if the benefits are high enough, you should do it.

2: The paladin's code fits on one side of a bar napkin. Among other things, it means that the law of the land is not the paladin's code. A paladin can break laws without falling, but he'll usually try not to.

Example: In the society in which our game was set, recreational drug use often resulted in multiple years in jail, because it was seen as a plague on society. The drug dealer I arrested was undeniably a bad man, selling his drugs that were cut with bleach. But there was a kid who didn't deserve to spend his life in jail. So I let him off with a warning he'd never forget. Illegal? Yeah. But I, being an alcoholic, was nobody to judge, and it would've been a senseless waste to put the kid away for 8 years for a bit of coke.

3: There is such thing as a lesser evil. This is huge because most paladins I've heard stories about will beat a peasant for stealing. That is horribly wrong. That peasant needs that bread or coin or whatever he stole. The good thing to do would be to offer reparations to the owner, then try to help the peasant out. (realistically I realize that you can't do this all the time, but once to establish your character should be plenty).

Example: This same guy tried to throw 2 defenseless people out into the zombie apocalypse for having relations in his house. Should they have had relations in his house? No. Is that justification for throwing them out? Only in Oceania.

4: Crime is not evil. Another huge one. A pirate does not, by default, have to be evil. He could be stealing from a corrupt person intentionally. He could be robin hood. Don't judge a book by it's cover. And don't rely so heavily on Detect Evil. Evil doesn't equal smiting. Evil can be redeemed.

The pirate in your case seemed like a pretty okay guy. Unless he happened to kill a few dozen people in cold blood and you forgot to mention it.

This is a pretty fair summary.

Where do monsters fall on this (and what kind of monsters)?

I lean toward bringing up Point 4 "evil doesn't equal smiting" for anything short of fiends.

And if the fiend is nuanced enough (and the setting allows fiends and mortals to interact peacefully, be redeemed, etc, like Planescape does) Point 4 covers them, as well.

mem0man
2009-10-15, 11:51 AM
You know how sometimes there is the evil guy in a party tht hides his alignment and works against the party in the background while seeming to be perfectly with the party objective overall? Yah, it isn't just evil people that can do that. Lawful Good doesn't always have to be out there and saintly. Just...work with the other people outside the Beguiler. You sound like you are all friends and in no way like you want to split away so it all seems like a very setting and campaign specific gripe. Turn the tables this once and fun should be had by all or at least the Beguiler will have egg on his face and an army at his doorstep.

Blue Warlock
2009-10-15, 12:03 PM
From what I can see, at least from a RAW perspective*, the Paladin and the Beguiler can no longer adventure together. The beguiler tortured people, which in the BoVD gets the always evil tag IIRC. So now your paladin is consorting with an evil character, meaning you can't stay with him or you will probably lose your paladin powers.
I would probably either roll up a new character or get permission from the Beguilers player to try and kill his character. Things can't stay the way they are without you getting severely shafted however, from a mechanical perspective and a roleplay one (you get tied up and don't get to do jacksquat)


*RAW only intended for use in a game without house rules, please consult DM if the condition persists outside of this environment. Warning: may also cause Pun Pun.

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 12:05 PM
Actually, it sounds like he was already in the party with the beguiler and actively aiding him, so by rights he should've fallen already.

Comet
2009-10-15, 12:34 PM
This is why we always discuss the themes of the game before it begins.

The GM tells the players the basics of the scenario he has planned, the players tell him and each other what kinds of characters they want to play. The whole group bounces ideas back and forth until everyone is happy with the upcoming game.
Then you pick up the dice and start playing. Everyone has characters that fit in the game and can interact with the other characters in a way that is fun for everyone at the table.

As for the OP's particular situation, I'd say go with the majority. Create a new character if you must or just adjust the old one to be more accepting towards morally ambigious actions.

You can then ask everyone to make good (as in the alignment, not quality) characters for the next campaign. Variety keeps gaming fresh.

Kalirren
2009-10-15, 02:17 PM
To the OP...Honestly, your character probably just should have smacked the beguiler up hard. After what he's seen the beguiler do, I'd not be surprised if he tried to smite evil and see if it happened to work or not. People do undergo what's called alignment -shift-, after all. Just because he scanned once and came up clean doesn't mean anything...

I can't speak for your group dynamic, but I can say that if that had happened in my group, I'm sure the beguiler's player would have understood the risk involved in both trying to keep the party together -and- pursue his character agenda. I'm fairly confident that if someone chose to act like the beguilers' player did, they would have expected some sort of conflict or showdown IC between their character and yours, and wouldn't have been bothered if you had brought that conflict to the surface.

My group prizes faithful and OOC-independent representation of IC group dynamic, but it sounds to me like your friend views these goals as subordinate to the "smooth progress" of the game, in the form of "keeping the party together". The question is, what do -you- believe? How much -are- you attached to the idea of playing an upright character? Are you willing to subordinate your character's desires to your friend's OOC desires and devise a character arc that involves falling? (You know, you really could make an awesome campaign out of that, too. Henchman betrays mastermind resulting in TPK for Team Evil is a pretty common theme, and makes for awesome storytelling.) Or are you willing to destabilize the IC group right here, right now, (and maybe the OOC one as well) to portray your character faithfully? You might have to make this choice sooner or later, even if not in this session.

valadil
2009-10-15, 02:25 PM
Because of the beguiler's actions I don't think your paladin has any reason to stick with the group. If you intend to keep playing with them, you should probably send the paladin off on his way and show up with a new character.

sadi
2009-10-15, 11:02 PM
Isn't sleep a 1 round casting time? You should probably know the spell since he keeps casting it on you, next time he starts casting it poke him with a large pointy object.

taltamir
2009-10-16, 12:57 AM
Players messing with the free will of other player's characters is a very bad thing. You are all there to play and have fun, being abused by another player is not fun or playing. There are many psycho's and *******s out there, you shouldn't play with them...

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-16, 01:20 AM
Players messing with the free will of other player's characters is a very bad thing. You are all there to play and have fun, being abused by another player is not fun or playing. There are many psycho's and *******s out there, you shouldn't play with them...

Okay, to set the scene... After this session, we played under another DM with different characters in a 3.5 homebrew world. I was playing a Soulknife, dyed pink furred tabbycat girl who was manically happy and spoke in fragments. I played, sans the Ranger player who went to raid in WoW, with all the same people and we had fun. Even the beguiler player. And apparently they liked my girl so much because I got so into character that people thought things I did out of character were her. I had people LAUGHING for me just looking at them.

:smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-16, 01:21 AM
Actually, it sounds like he was already in the party with the beguiler and actively aiding him, so by rights he should've fallen already.

Probably. But yeah, now that this sorta thing has gone down, he's gonna likely be in need of an atonement.

So, long as you've already lost, or will be losing your powers, and are in a tight spot, it's time to call on the one guy that will always help out a pally in a bind. I don't mean your diety, I mean Pazuzu.

Remember, he's not just usable for Pun-Pun, he also helps cure problems, and he does delight in "helping" Pallies. He's also quite capable of fixing your beguiler problem.


When another player screws with you, I always advise doing the same thing back.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-16, 01:33 AM
So far, I haven't fallen yet as said before with Ceaon bringing up the possibility of doing so. So far, I've assisted them pre-torture because they were familiar and my Pally wasn't a racist or.... whatever you'd call it. Post torture, I was essentially a prisoner and outnumbered by four other people (including the female Drow mindslave). My character healed one of the Nagas when he was hurt badly but that was it.

Keep in mind that they all three took part in it. The plot important item, we've learned, can only be discovered by my detect evil ability. At this point, Ari has in his mind that he will begrudgingly work with these vile men because they are all his has. He is a wanted man because of the coup in his own nation. He was apart of an organization but he was to be executed for standing by his CO or at least trying to aid in his escape while being completely unaware of the situation (which so far has been suggested that Kirk was set up for a fall from grace but saved himself).

From now on (if I find that I can stomach being the lone Good character in the party), I'm going to cross class bluff and am going to work very hard to make Ari the best he can be. So that, in the end when the plot item is found, I can bluff and/or fight all of them off (with shark included) and show them up. Or fail badly. Either way, I think it'd be interesting if I CAN actually play.

As for knowing that the beguiler is evil, Ari doesn't know. He is not aware the Drow has been basically mindraped. So yeah... blah.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-16, 01:36 AM
Well, pazuzu can be the ace in the hole, if you like. Presuming you can make the knowledge: religion check, which doesn't seem that unlikely with a paladin.

In a situation like that, it's likely to eventually get sticky at some point in time(most likely, whenever they figure out they have some way to replace you), so definitely prepare for conflict. This party is almost certainly going to implode.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-16, 01:42 AM
Well, pazuzu can be the ace in the hole, if you like. Presuming you can make the knowledge: religion check, which doesn't seem that unlikely with a paladin.

In a situation like that, it's likely to eventually get sticky at some point in time(most likely, whenever they figure out they have some way to replace you), so definitely prepare for conflict. This party is almost certainly going to implode.

Oh I'm quite aware of that. Which is why I'm going to stock pile curative items and try to get the best equipment I can & trying to get allies outside of the party to help me as well. While buffing my shark with the Celestial Mount feat. Hell, I don't even have to win. I just have to get away and riding the shark, I can do that.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-16, 01:43 AM
Okay so you need to have a talk with this player. Be like "hey man wtf was that?" Ask him to explain his side of the story first, so that he won't get defensive, and then explain to him your side. Say "look, man. I don't want to have trouble with you. I was your ally through the whole thing. But you're really pushing it with your unnecessary torture, and if you push it much further, I'll have to retaliate. Can we try just being friends in-character?"

This with your Pally advice in general is perhaps the best advice for my situation I've seen. Thank you. And no offense to anyone else!

^o^;


I think you get the idea, but the sad thing is that the beguiler in trying to hold the party together probably just shattered it.

My thoughts exactly.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-16, 09:01 AM
The plot important item, we've learned, can only be discovered by my detect evil ability.


As for knowing that the beguiler is evil, Ari doesn't know. He is not aware the Drow has been basically mindraped. So yeah... blah.

So, I think the latter problem there is answered quite nicely by the former. Though it does raise smite-tastic problems of it's own. Really, attacking party members is asking for retrobution, reguardless of alignment.

Glyde
2009-10-16, 09:55 AM
Or here's a good one. Fall to blackguard and get nice juicy thoughts of vengeance. Bluff your way all the way to the end, get to the plot-item then turn and say. "I can't detect evil."

After the various 'whats' and 'are you kiddings' you smash the plot-item and (hopefully) absorb its power for yourself, becoming the nigh godlike new BBEG. If the DM is a really nice guy, he'll love this and it would be a fitting way to show that players' actions have consequences.

Blue Warlock
2009-10-16, 11:22 AM
Wait, if you are the only one that can do jack with this plot important item, and you can only do it if you have your paladin powers, which you will only have if everyone in this group is good or neutral...

First explain it to everyone in your party OOC that your paladin is going to fall if they knowingly associate with evil characters (without your DM giving a special ruling this is RAW, it will probably convince everyone to do what you say). Then tell them that if you fall then the adventure just falls apart, you can't seek your plot important item and its all over.

Then for in character, have your paladin say that they will never serve such evil characters and that they must change their ways or some such. The characters wouldn't have to switch alignment or anything, they would only have to appear good. Then you get kind of a funny dynamic where they pretend to be good around you (perhaps sickeningly so) and all their evil off screen and without you around.

You won't be tied up anymore, roleplay will be awesome and fun, the plot will progress, and everyone gets to keep their original character concepts.

Is this win?

Kylarra
2009-10-16, 11:25 AM
If you levelup, take some ranks in bluff and then when you get to the macguffin, hand them the wrong one. :smalltongue:


... what, you're a paladin, why would you hand over the macguffin to someone who has tortured you twice.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-17, 12:09 AM
So, I think the latter problem there is answered quite nicely by the former. Though it does raise smite-tastic problems of it's own. Really, attacking party members is asking for retrobution, reguardless of alignment.

Except that he leaves only a 10 minute window per day during which he is evil. The rest of the time, he hides it during the day.


Or here's a good one. Fall to blackguard and get nice juicy thoughts of vengeance. Bluff your way all the way to the end, get to the plot-item then turn and say. "I can't detect evil."

After the various 'whats' and 'are you kiddings' you smash the plot-item and (hopefully) absorb its power for yourself, becoming the nigh godlike new BBEG. If the DM is a really nice guy, he'll love this and it would be a fitting way to show that players' actions have consequences.

Except the plot-item isn't as powerful as to give me super evil powers. And again, I don't want Ari to fall. To me, that'd be letting the Beguiler win. He'd be getting another cohort and it dooms Ari's city to remain in the hands of evil.


Wait, if you are the only one that can do jack with this plot important item, and you can only do it if you have your paladin powers, which you will only have if everyone in this group is good or neutral...

First explain it to everyone in your party OOC that your paladin is going to fall if they knowingly associate with evil characters (without your DM giving a special ruling this is RAW, it will probably convince everyone to do what you say). Then tell them that if you fall then the adventure just falls apart, you can't seek your plot important item and its all over.

Then for in character, have your paladin say that they will never serve such evil characters and that they must change their ways or some such. The characters wouldn't have to switch alignment or anything, they would only have to appear good. Then you get kind of a funny dynamic where they pretend to be good around you (perhaps sickeningly so) and all their evil off screen and without you around.

You won't be tied up anymore, roleplay will be awesome and fun, the plot will progress, and everyone gets to keep their original character concepts.

Is this win?

Well, he's not exactly "willingly" associating with them. Rather he's been forced to by his CO commanding him to work with them and the fact that they have him outnumbered. Again he's more of a prisoner at this point and not condoning all of their actions. My DM has yet to even mention Ari falling and I do not believe his situation so far has warranted falling.


If you levelup, take some ranks in bluff and then when you get to the macguffin, hand them the wrong one. :smalltongue:


... what, you're a paladin, why would you hand over the macguffin to someone who has tortured you twice.

That and complete scoundrel has some very nice notes about how to play their version of a Pally.

^.^

Glyde
2009-10-17, 12:13 AM
Fft. Ari falling would not be giving the beguiler a cohort. Evil does not always side with evil.

Though I still personally like my idea of talking to the DM to make the MacGuffin turn you into a super-evil, I'm also still fond of the one where you smite the beguiler's face into next week first chance you get. Then stand over his frightened, cowering form and bellow out about how you have given him chance after chance, and that judgement and reckoning has come - that his foul taint is no longer tolerated by the world itself.

Sure, if you smite him again into next *month* from that point, you might fall. Especially if he tries to surrender. But that will be a fall that feels really damn good.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-17, 07:09 AM
Except that he leaves only a 10 minute window per day during which he is evil. The rest of the time, he hides it during the day.

I take it from this he casts some kind of undetectable alignment thing each day, then? Well, all you need to do is identify that he is doing that, and it's pretty obvious even without pinging. Failing that, use your ten minute window.

Failing that, I hear he's been indulging in Torture, which is an always-evil act. I'm sure someone must have seen it happen...

Sliver
2009-10-17, 07:45 AM
Failing that, I hear he's been indulging in Torture, which is an always-evil act. I'm sure someone must have seen it happen...

I think the paladin, being tortured himself and all, might have seen it happen. But he is forced into working with them. Ya know, it is lawful but not really good. If you can work against that guy and still work towards the greater good, you should. If working against him would mean failing the mission and dooming a race or w/e, then yeah, you are just following around doing w/e is needed.

Kylarra
2009-10-17, 11:19 AM
Speaking of Cscoundrel, I'd say this experience is a good reason for your paladin to go into the Gray Guard prestige class.

taltamir
2009-10-18, 05:19 AM
Fft. Ari falling would not be giving the beguiler a cohort. Evil does not always side with evil.

Though I still personally like my idea of talking to the DM to make the MacGuffin turn you into a super-evil, I'm also still fond of the one where you smite the beguiler's face into next week first chance you get. Then stand over his frightened, cowering form and bellow out about how you have given him chance after chance, and that judgement and reckoning has come - that his foul taint is no longer tolerated by the world itself.

Sure, if you smite him again into next *month* from that point, you might fall. Especially if he tries to surrender. But that will be a fall that feels really damn good.

Lawful Good not Lawful stupid... granting mercy to ANYONE who asks for it no matter how evil is just stupid... it means that everyone and anyone will abuse the heck out of it "oh no mercy"! "that is what you said the last 10 times... but every time i granted it you went right back to slaughtering innocents and trying to assassinate me" "i know that, and you know that, but the paladin code requires you grant me mercy or you lose your powers, neener neener"...

Seriously the guy is evil, if he can rape your mind with his spells, you can break his face with your club... make sure to look at the spell's rules, and make the appropriate rolls to figure out what is going on... and then when you do, kill the guy for mind controlling AND abusing you.

OOC, I still think that is a player problem though, not something that is to be solved " in game"

PPS. mercy means showing compassion and mercy towards people WITHOUT them requesting it... whether a person begs for mercy or not is irrelevant. If they are incorrigibly evil, ignore their pleas and kill them. If they never once ask for mercy but are redeemable, show mercy anyways.

Glyde
2009-10-18, 09:20 AM
Lawful Good not Lawful stupid... granting mercy to ANYONE who asks for it no matter how evil is just stupid... it means that everyone and anyone will abuse the heck out of it "oh no mercy"! "that is what you said the last 10 times... but every time i granted it you went right back to slaughtering innocents and trying to assassinate me" "i know that, and you know that, but the paladin code requires you grant me mercy or you lose your powers, neener neener"...



"The code is more of a...guideline. *smite evil* *falls* *power attacks*"

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:25 AM
It actually doesn't, though you may want to consult your phylactery of faithfulness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofFaithfulness) to be sure of your DM. Acting with honor doesn't mean being stupid.


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-18, 10:40 PM
The problem, actually, is that he's one of a four-person squad (Himself, two other Naga, and the female Drow) and if Ari attacks him... Well, it'd be foolish to think he'd survive the other three.

In a random news point, I was DM yesterday... And I almost had a TPK. But thanks to one stabilize check, the party survived.... Except for the Beguiler player's character.

:smalleek:

But he was okay with it and actually started designing a new character right after the boss battle.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-18, 11:23 PM
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Anyone besides me notice there isn't a time limit on that last bolded bit?

Ari's got some punishment in mind, it seems to me. Evil isn't a puppy. You don't rub its nose in the poopy right then and there. You're not trying to teach, here.

I would totally ask your DM in private if you can start taking Gray Guard levels. Don't tell the rest of the party, though, if you can avoid it. Or you could START telling them so they spend the rest of the game crapping their pants waiting for you to rock their faces off in a wonderful coup.

EDIT: Oh I just saw the beguiler died. Does he have a grave? Your paladin should pee on it.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 11:26 PM
Grey Guard isn't bad in general, IMO. I love the fluff of it, and if I ever did play a paladin, I'd probably go into it right off.

Congrats on your problem being solved!

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-18, 11:27 PM
Anyone besides me notice there isn't a time limit on that last bolded bit?

Ari's got some punishment in mind, it seems to me. Evil isn't a puppy. You don't rub its nose in the poopy right then and there. You're not trying to teach, here.

I would totally ask your DM in private if you can start taking Gray Guard levels. Don't tell the rest of the party, though, if you can avoid it. Or you could START telling them so they spend the rest of the game crapping their pants waiting for you to rock their faces off in a wonderful coup.

EDIT: Oh I just saw the beguiler died. Does he have a grave? Your paladin should pee on it.

His character in my campaign died, sorry for the confusion.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-18, 11:34 PM
Eh, just read the first post...

Sounds to me like a major problem is the DM here. He has the power to lay down the law, and say "No, you can't torture a fellow party member," or "No, his reaction makes sense, please don't be a jerk." He also has the power to punish characters like that in game, and discipline the player of such characters outside the game. A passive DM in that situation is just as responsible for your aggravation as the problem player. It's the DM's job to make sure everyone's having a good time, and he obviously was failing.

Samb
2009-10-18, 11:55 PM
Eh, just read the first post...

Sounds to me like a major problem is the DM here. He has the power to lay down the law, and say "No, you can't torture a fellow party member," or "No, his reaction makes sense, please don't be a jerk." He also has the power to punish characters like that in game, and discipline the player of such characters outside the game. A passive DM in that situation is just as responsible for your aggravation as the problem player. It's the DM's job to make sure everyone's having a good time, and he obviously was failing.

This. Your DM is just spineless in not nipping this in the bud. Just you posting here is proof that he didn't do his job.

EndlessWrath
2009-10-19, 01:01 AM
The majority of Players play NG or CG or CN characters.. but players themselves are usually NE, LE, or CE.

....Lemme get this straight. You..are a paladin. You've been forcibly captured..multiple times...tortured..multiple times.. by people you treated as comrades... and you have yet to smite any of them? I understand the problems out of character... but rationalized in character... I would smite immediately with the hardest hit I had against the beguiler. Blatantly evil torturing a comrade paladin because his player has a grudge.

/rant.

Anyways. No.. its not a good thing to blow up on them. but you should have a serious one to one chat with this player. He's being unreasonable. He's carrying his anti-pc-paladin grudge and using his abilities AGAINST the party instead of trying to continue the campaign.
we had a similar player in my first campaign. Hated horses... and would kill any horse or pony he saw...even the ones the PCs were riding. Its just unreasonable. and its pure folly your dm allowed it. Have a chat with your players.

-Wrath

pres_man
2009-10-20, 02:14 AM
Coup-de-grace the beguiler when he is sleeping and then have the paladin commit seppuku to regain his honor. Then both you and the other player can bring in less disruptive characters.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 08:15 AM
Ya'll need to finish reading before posting, problems solved.

Now yes, I agree that in general, disruptive players need to get a party smackdown, but sometimes that can be situationally awkward.

pres_man
2009-10-20, 10:59 AM
Ya'll need to finish reading before posting, problems solved.

I may have misinterpretated what he said, but I think he was saying the player's other character died. From my impression they are running two campaigns at the same time (swapping weeks). The player that has a beguiler in one game, had his other character die in the other game (DMed by the OPer). As I said, I could have understood his statements incorrectly, and if so, I apologize.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-20, 11:03 AM
I may have misinterpretated what he said, but I think he was saying the player's other character died. From my impression they are running two campaigns at the same time (swapping weeks). The player that has a beguiler in one game, had his other character die in the other game (DMed by the OPer). As I said, I could have understood his statements incorrectly, and if so, I apologize.

No, you would be correct. In the game run by me, he was a Sorcerer/Fighter/Barbarian level 3. It wasn't deliberate so much as it was a strong challenge for the party. I even gave the option for an easy out for all to survive but they demanded that I play it straight.

That turn, his character fell.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 11:19 AM
Ah, apologies. Yeah, revert to previous advice then, mostly involving ways to get venegance on his character. Cause frankly, the pally is going to assume evilness after being tortured by him.

sdream
2009-10-27, 04:26 PM
Vengeance isn't helpful.

Just tell the whole group up front that they have two choices:

- Apologize to the paladin for past craziness, and convince him that they are not truly evil, but were just overzealous in pursuit of a goal which he also values, and then work together properly with NO MORE internal 4 on one abuse.

- Permanently Mindbend or kill the paladin, as he is now convinced that the other members are evil and must be stopped. Then come up with an alternate character you would enjoy playing with them.

But put your foot down, friends are not to be abused like enemies.