i made a class and rolled a natural 1

[Itous]

hi all i'm tryin to make a lower grade version of true necromancer to play as a base class this is what i have so far

Bard BAB progress table
Monk saving throw table
Bard Class Skills
Sorcerer Spells per day table
access to 1 arcane school (being in this case necromancy)
and 2 domains as a cleric

the feel i'm going for is

"i will support as much as i can" *something happens where you can not longer support*
"ok time for some melee"

for convinence i have kept the HD the same as the bard but a 1d6 isn't designed for melee aswell as +0 BAB and hardly any spells, can someone please help me correct this horrible problem

skills and skill points are as bard

i am currently thinking should i bump up the hit dice to 1d8 like a monk's this way his increased Hit Dice make up for his lack of such a wide spell casting choice?


anything will help i feel, i play tested it and got killed horribly

thanks all


(i know sometimes when i explain things it doesn't always come out clear so if something is unclear please say what is unclear and i will try to patch it up)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You're looking for a necromancer playable from level 1? Do yourself the favor and find a copy of the 3.5 book Heroes of Horror and look up the Dread Necromancer. It does exactly what you're looking for.

With what you've got you'll have the following problem: Necromancy isn't the strongest of schools at low levels, and you have no class abilities to back you up.

I'd really recommend the Dread Necromancer.

[Itous]

i've looked at dread necromancer and honestly it just seems off some how i don't have a copy of it to hand is there a wiki page on dread necromancer though?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Nope. Copyrighted content and all that.

Can you tell us a little more of what you're aiming for with this class idea? Currently your problem is that you can't really make a new, effective, interesting class by just slapping on abilities from other classes. You'll need something new, and for that we need to know what you're trying to do here.

[Itous]

as i said before i'm tyring to make a support class of some kind the class is trying to be reflective of how i play

normally in game i like to support as much as i can without getting my hands dirty, but once that is done i love to jump right into the middle of a hot combat situation and beat the tar out of some bad guys.

now with just necromancy, and the evil and death domains, there isn't really much support there not to mention no melee aspects with 1d6 hit points and no base attack bonus so its litrally back to the drawing bored.

so support then jump into combat its how i like to do things.

i am fond of te school necromancy as i have many custom spells made and apporved by my DM but instead of being over multiclassed with bard 1 level in barb several in sorcerer and monk i just need to find a way to condense the points that reflect my style of gaming and merge it to prevent myself from over classing.

[Jogi]

as i said before i'm tyring to make a support class of some kind the class is trying to be reflective of how i play

normally in game i like to support as much as i can without getting my hands dirty, but once that is done i love to jump right into the middle of a hot combat situation and beat the tar out of some bad guys.

now with just necromancy, and the evil and death domains, there isn't really much support there not to mention no melee aspects with 1d6 hit points and no base attack bonus so its litrally back to the drawing bored.

so support then jump into combat its how i like to do things.

i am fond of te school necromancy as i have many custom spells made and apporved by my DM but instead of being over multiclassed with bard 1 level in barb several in sorcerer and monk i just need to find a way to condense the points that reflect my style of gaming and merge it to prevent myself from over classing.

Sounds hella lot like a cleric. Supports then goes melee.

[Itous]

yeah how ever my religious views normally trasfer into the game which is
"i have no religon" or when i feel more rebelious "Nerull" as my chosen god and like i said i have a flare for writting necromancy spells so if i could get necromancy arcane spell list and death and evil domains that would make me very happy, how ever i feel there just isn't enough support there and even with the cleric abilities and progression tables, its still not right, i easily spent a good 8 years of my life studying martial arts, also if i saw undead i wouldn't turn them (and i honestly don't know what Rebuke is) i would just use an arcane necromancy spell "control undead" and turn the tides in my favor

i have always felt like my characters saving throws should be balanced like a monk's but with out litrally splicing classes together i have no clue in hell how i'm going to pull it off.

as i said my whole splicing classes thing left me with an underpowered melee and caster combo class, its challange rating was about 1/2

if i go with the monk BAB progression table that should solve my problems of combat, bump the Hit dice up to 1D8 should also work (in theory) then i just have the spell problem, for a caster its WAY under powered even using the BoVD LM and PHB i didn't have enough 0 level spells to fill out my cantrips, so i threw in some of my own material.

also with a arcane spell list dominant that is normally designed for draining people it doesn't provide much support so i think now the thing that needs to be done is simply re-work the spell list.

my two favrioute arcane school are necromancy and illusion both of which can be powerful if you know how to use them

how ever illusion can't really be used at low levels to support anyone, unless your making a distraction, it seems to me enchantment and transmutation are other schools i should consider having how ever i don't know now if this will make me over powered, even though i have cut down my spell list hugely

with the saving throws, skill lists, hit dice, progression tables it might seem a bit much.


its just these nibbly bits that get me.


what do you think? does that seem more suited, this way its more like a cleric who is more like a bard (seeing as a bard doesn't need a god to belive in but can heal anyway) throws in the melee aspects i'm looking for and the spell aspects, but like i said i don't want to make it over powered or underpowered like before.

[Zaydos]

Rebuke Undead makes them scared of you and gives some bonus to attacks against them and I don't remember the exact effect, but if your cleric level is twice their effective hit dice they are absolutely controlled, no save, permanent control. It can be sweet for an evil necromancer.

[Itous]

wow that does seem cool

so to be sure you mean if your a level 2 cleric and you rebuke a level 1 undead, i would be able to control it becuase my HD are double its HD?

----EDIT----


infac Rebuking does sound more effective for what i'm looking for for my class.

also i have a mate bringing over a copy of heroes of horror so i will check out dread necromancer then, there is a version of it on DnD wiki, not sure if its the same though, i doubt as it was mentioned earlier it was copyrighted

[Itous]

Djinn thanks very much for pointing me in the right direct with heroes of horror, the spell list of dread necromancer is fantastic its exactly what i was after. but i feel it still needs to be edited some how as its hit dice and base attack bonus aren't what i'm looking for, unless you can sujest some builds that will allow me to cast more then one spell per round.

i am thinking keep the saves the same but replace the d6 HD with d8 and give it a monk's base attack progression table that seems much more the feel i was going for.

i was also thinking about replacing all DR's with bard class features.

what do you think?
i could easily take spell resistance as a feat at level 1 to have the same effects.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I wouldn't recommend doing that, as the Dread Necromancer is already a pretty decent class. In order for those changes, you'd have to lose some stuff.

I'd say that for a loss of 1 spell per day of each level (so a 2-3-4-5 progression instead of a 3-4-5-6) you might be able to get away with it. The Bard features, on the other hand, I'd avoid.

[Itous]

Dread Necromancer is a good class i will admit but the whole point of this post was to get help with my origonal class i failed badly at, so far i am happy with the spell selection list from dread necromancer aswell as progress, so i will use that and add in 0 level spells this way you can clear a few necro cantrips with your DM to give you a bit more of a nudge.

how ever with spell casters you can only use so many spells per day and seeing as i wanted someone who could jump into a fight at a moements Notice i changed the Hit Die to 1d8 as even a 1d6 caster is still under powered.


at levels 1,2,3,5,6,8,11,13,16,18

i removed the following class features of dread necromancer and replaced them with other things

1: Charnel Touch ---> Bardic Knowledge
2: Lich Body DR 2 ---> Bardic Music, Counter song
3: Negative energy Burst 1/day ---> inspire courage +1
5: Fear Aura ---> Inspire Competence, Rage
6: Scabrous Touch / 1per day ---> Inspire Courage +2
7: Lich Body DR 4 ---> Suggestion
8: Negative Energy Burst ---> Rage 2/Day
11: Lich Body DR 6, Scabrous Touch 2/day ----> Inspire Greatness, Song of freedom
13: Negative energy Burst 3/day ---> Rage 3/day
15: Lich Body DR 8 ----> Craft Ring
16: Scabrous touch 3/day ---> Craft Magical arms and Armor, Mass Suggestion
18: Negative energy Burst 4/day ---> inspire courage, inspire heroics


what do you think of the new list?

rage is there to fill in a few blanks in gaps caused by the removing of most class skills also to aid in the melee aspect of the new class.

item creation feats are there for personal benefit to the lich, the way i see it if your going to turn into an undead you should really awake to your new lair filled with shiney and power items you have created and that will aid you in your undead form.

some of the things i have removed are watered down versions of lich abilities, how ever there are feats avalible to take that have similar effects, such as spell resistance.

i am thinking maybe there shouldn't be a penalty in casting as it is dominantely a caster. (in terms of self presivation you will only use melee as a last resort this is why yo uget rages at higher levels) but you are also fighting magic for your allies aswell with some class abilitys thrown in there from bard.


what do you think of this now?

1d8

monk BAB progression table,
Dread necro spell list, casting progress and saving throws.

removal of watered down and useless class feats and replaces with better ones i feel are more appropriate for the class i am trying to build.


what do you think of it now?


In response to Jogi, its sort of a necrotic cleric with a very bardish feel, the only thing this is missing happens to be healing spells but thats why gygax gave us potions.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

All you're doing is powering up an already decent class. That doesn't make for a balanced end result, especially since you kept the Lich template at level 20 (which is what most of those class abilities build up to). Additionally, you're talking of adding custom spells to a restricted list, which will also only serve to power up the class. Finally, you've removed the Charnal Touch ability, but kept later abilities tied to it. Why?

Here's a thought.

Change Hit Dice to d8
Change Base Attack Bonus to the Monk's
Remove Lich Body, Fear Aura, Fortification, Mental Bastion, Craft Wondrous Item, and Lich Transformation (completely removing the "becoming a lich" aspect)

Grant Charisma to AC when wearing no armor, the Monk's AC progression, and the Monk's unarmed damage progression.
Allow Charnal Touch abilities to be activated with unarmed attacks (on no more than one attack per round, with the same uses/day as normal).
Grant a Ki Strike-like improvement to unarmed damage.
Remove 1 spell/day from each level.
Otherwise don't change spellcasting at all.

You now have a Necromancer fueled with necrotic power, able to wade into combat and lay some unholy smackdown on his foes. He's not AS good a mage, but he's a much better fighter, and able to hold his own in a fray.

This is probably also a little stronger than the default Necromancer, although I'm not certain. What you suggest, however, seems random, cobbled together, and to strong. A "Necromancer/Cleric/Fighter/Bard" just combines to many options to be a viable, balanced character in a non-gestalt game, unless you're willing to sacrifice raw power for versatility, which it doesn't sound like you are.

[Itous]

whoa, i sensed some hostility in that last post, don't get me wrong i'm not trying to piss anyone off i'm just looking for the right class, i would be looking to add to my own spells yes that is true that is why i kept the advanced learning from the dreadnecromancer as it allows you to add spells you have created through research and experimentation.

i do like your version much better as i have said before i am not good with making classes, how ever i am looking to at least get counter song, bardic knowledge, fascinate, bardic music and suggestion, what could we cut down from that another spell per level thing?

i think if we drop some of the monk abilities and some DN abilitys it could work like the carnal touch attack thing, i really don't see why that is there, monks AC progression i have never been a fan of but keeping the unarmed damage progression is fine with me

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sorry if there seemed to be hostility...it wasn't intended. I was honestly curious about your intentions, and trying to make a point about balance to someone trying to assemble their first class. I sometimes come off as abrasive, but I rarely mean it. :smallbiggrin:

Here's the deal: the Bard is a well-balanced class. It gets a 3/4 BaB, moderate spellcasting, good skill points, and Bardic Music (which is quite a strong ability, all in all).

The Dread Necromancer is a well-balanced class. It gets poor BaB, poor skill points, strong necromantic spellcasting, and a bunch of undead-flavored abilities of questionable value for a spellcaster. It also specializes in legions of undead.

Combing the two as you suggest gives us a 3/4 BaB, d8 Hit Dice, strong spellcasting class with a powerful, often-usable ability...that has the potential to empower all it's minions. It's just a little to useful without sacrificing some of it's main source of power: spellcasting. In order to achieve some balance, something meaningful should be sacrificed, not something you wouldn't use anyway.

Anyway, I'll let someone else take it from here. I've said my part, but, in the end, it's your game.

That said, I'm probably better at critiquing wholly new classes: if, at any point in the future, you try your hand at creating a whole new class, abilities and all...well, drop me a line and I'll be more than happy to take a look. :smallbiggrin:

[Itous]

thanks dude, its cool i know what you mean you say something and it comes out the wrong way.

maybe removing the lich abilities like you said and keeping the saves and BAB as you sujested why not just buff up the hit points and fiddle with the skills then give it unarmed strike, it will make it more durable in combat, maybe it makes more sense to do the 2 -3 -4 casting as sujested, give it 1d8 or 1d10 and keep everything else as it is?

but with out someone to bounce back and forward with i'm useless at making stuff best i can do is spells and monsters :/