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View Full Version : Are any same class gestalts good?



deuxhero
2009-10-15, 07:12 PM
Would class//same class ever make a good combo? In other words, being able to take 2 alternete class features/class options. This will not be compared to other gestalt, but based on increase in power.

Clarifications
Spell slots overlaps, not stack (spells known are doubled)
Prcs and multiclassing are allowed, but you must take it on both sides (like a base class)
Pun pun/Pun pun is not valid, must gain significant power
Standard WBL
LA buyoff is allowed (but LA and hitdie apply to both sides)

For instance
Ranger//Ranger can select 2 fighting styles (Wildshape+2 weapon fighting could be interesting with improved unarmed strike) drop martial melee animal companion and slow down her favored enemy (gets twice as many favored enemies) and weapon style for enchantment spells (does not keep the standard ranger spells, but can swap them out for an ACF).

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 07:25 PM
Eh...

Let's see notables I see off the top of my head from just SRD

Druid - gains monk AC/speed+ favored enemy/track as ranger+ normal druid abilities

Bard gains AC

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-10-15, 07:25 PM
Focused Specialist Conjurer Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt on one side, Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with familiar on the other. Sure, you only get one set of the base spell slots, but you do get all those tasty bonus slots, you cast from all schools, and you can take a cheesy ACF while retaining your familiar. It's no Wizard//Factotum, but class//same class will never be the best combo.

Another idea would be Standard Fighter // Thug SA Fighter. On top of normal fighter, you gain... sneak attack. Hooray. The flip side of this coin is Normal Rogue // Feat Rogue, which is about as exciting. I'm sure Barbarians can get a bunch of different weirdo totem bonuses too.

Dienekes
2009-10-15, 07:27 PM
Sneak attack increases by increments of +2d6?

valadil
2009-10-15, 07:36 PM
Do bonus feats stack in gestalt? If so they might be useful here.

deuxhero
2009-10-15, 07:38 PM
Bonus feats yes,
sneak attack no (not for the purpose of this thread anyways)

Leewei
2009-10-15, 07:46 PM
Rogue (bonus feat variant) / Rogue (sneak attack variant) would be decent enough. Alternately, Fighter/Fighter built along similar lines.

Dienekes
2009-10-15, 07:50 PM
Bonus feats yes,
sneak attack no (not for the purpose of this thread anyways)

Awww, but it clearly says +1d6 for both. So it'd reasonably be +2d6 total.

Random832
2009-10-15, 08:09 PM
Rogue (bonus feat variant) / Rogue (sneak attack variant) would be decent enough. Alternately, Fighter/Fighter built along similar lines.

How are either of those better than straight-up Rogue//Fighter? Or SA Fighter//Feat Rogue just to mix it up a bit.

hmm... While sneak attack wouldn't stack for a SA Fighter//Rogue, It would for a Commoner 1/SA Fighter//Rogue since you're getting the sneak attack bonuses on different levels.

Anyway, it's not legal to gestalt two variants of the same class.

deuxhero
2009-10-15, 08:19 PM
eh, it's the purpose of the thread, ignore the ruling. I'd allow SA fighter/Rogue stacking as they come from separate sources.

Indon
2009-10-15, 08:29 PM
Focused Specialist Conjurer Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt on one side, Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with familiar on the other. Sure, you only get one set of the base spell slots, but you do get all those tasty bonus slots, you cast from all schools, and you can take a cheesy ACF while retaining your familiar. It's no Wizard//Factotum, but class//same class will never be the best combo.

You can also ACF out the feats on one side of that (if this doesn't already) in exchange for a set of Fighter feats, for more gish flavor.

Book Wyrm
2009-10-15, 09:26 PM
How would the ToB initiator classes work? Because a Swordsage//Swordsage could know almost every maneuver he has access to. Or better yet Swordsage//Arcane Spell Swordsage, or even Swordsage/Mo9//Unarmed Swordsage/Mo9. Without actually crunching the numbers he'd be close to knowing half the maneuvers in the book.

rezplz
2009-10-15, 09:36 PM
Commoner1/fighter//fighter.


Then they get feats on different levels... so they'd all stack...


HAHAHAH FEAT OVERLOAD :) Get every useful feat in the book, and then some.

Indon
2009-10-15, 09:40 PM
Hmm, Swordsage//Unarmed+Arcane Swordsage.

Bard//Divine Bardic Sage would be interesting.
+2 to bardic lore, divinations, and you either get two Bardic spell progressions, or you can cast Bardic spells as both arcane and/or divine at will.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-15, 09:43 PM
Commoner1/fighter//fighter.


Then they get feats on different levels... so they'd all stack...


HAHAHAH FEAT OVERLOAD :) Get every useful feat in the book, and then some.
That's when your DM tells you 'Core only' and your scheming comes crashing down unto oblivion.:smallamused:

Indon
2009-10-15, 09:45 PM
That's when your DM tells you 'Core only' and your scheming comes crashing down unto oblivion.:smallamused:

That's still 30 free HP!

Dixieboy
2009-10-15, 10:17 PM
That's when your DM tells you 'Core only' and your scheming comes crashing down unto oblivion.:smallamused:In that case you just go druid 1/fighter/fighter

sofawall
2009-10-15, 10:25 PM
Commoner is Core...

Ravens_cry
2009-10-15, 10:27 PM
Commoner is Core...
Yes, but all the good fighter feat's aren't. Not enough to fill 20 levels of double fighter feats anyway.
Off topic, but is there a feat compendium like there is a spell compendium and magic item compendium?

sonofzeal
2009-10-15, 10:29 PM
Commoner is Core...
Feats worth taking, aren't.

Ozymandias9
2009-10-15, 10:31 PM
Commoner is Core...

He was referencing the limitations on what you can do with that many feats for a fighter in core.

rezplz
2009-10-15, 10:32 PM
That's when your DM tells you 'Core only' and your scheming comes crashing down unto oblivion.:smallamused:

That's when I go Druidzilla//Clericzilla and break the game. 8) Divine metamagic persist, throw in some wildshape with natural spell... aw yeah.

Edit: Divine metamagic isn't core but you know what I mean ;P

Tyndmyr
2009-10-15, 10:43 PM
Focused Specialist Conjurer Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt on one side, Elven Generalist Domain Wizard with familiar on the other. Sure, you only get one set of the base spell slots, but you do get all those tasty bonus slots, you cast from all schools, and you can take a cheesy ACF while retaining your familiar. It's no Wizard//Factotum, but class//same class will never be the best combo.

Wouldn't two different focused specialists be ideal? I mean, provided they have different banned schools, you still get access to everything. And those bonus slots are different, since each has to be filled with the appropriate specialty school.

Utterly ridiculous amounts of spell slots.

Haven
2009-10-15, 10:52 PM
Psion//Psion would be pretty great. Powers from two different disciplines, a few extra bonus feats, and a huge pool of power points--yum.

Psychic Warrior//Psychic Warrior, possibly even more so since they were always rather PP- and power-starved. Plus, their possible pool of bonus feats is so wide that they could really take advantage of all the extra ones.

Talya
2009-10-15, 10:56 PM
Likewise, Sorcerer//Sorcerer would get a whole lot more spontaneous casting, picking different spells on each side. Would it be enough spell selection to let them batman better than non-gestalt batman?

Kylarra
2009-10-15, 10:56 PM
wilder//wilder isn't too bad either. One half gets the expanded knowledge variant and the other is standard.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-15, 11:42 PM
This sounds like an excellent instance to play a Beguiler Beguiler//Beguiler beguiler.

AmberVael
2009-10-15, 11:43 PM
This sounds like an excellent instance to play a Beguiler Beguiler//Beguiler beguiler.

Careful, much more and you'll hit the beguiler singularity.

Eldariel
2009-10-16, 12:36 AM
Barbarian//Barbarian would be pretty good for picking up all the ACFs; Ferocity & Whirling Frenzy, Pounce & Fast Movement, Improved Trip & Uncanny Dodge, Trapkiller & Imp. Trip, Street Fighter on one side, etc.

Rogue//Wilderness Rogue picking different Special Abilities and stacking Sneak Attack would be hawt!

Warblade//Warblade with double Maneuvers Known, Readied & twice the bonus feats would be pretty damn well off too, as would Crusader with doubled Delayed Damage Pool (though due to the way Crusaders gain maneuvers, the extras readied aren't that good for it).

Conjurer//Focused Conjurer picking Rapid Summoning & Abrupt Jaunt (normally competing for the Familiar-slot) would also be nice, particularly with different banned schools (you could still get access to all schools this way), Martial Wizard on one side & the various other ACFs Wizards get.

sonofzeal
2009-10-16, 12:46 AM
Careful, much more and you'll hit the beguiler singularity.
One side or the other should dip Warlock for "Beguiling Influence"

infinitypanda
2009-10-16, 12:51 AM
Bard//Bard, taking the animal companion ACF on one side and pumping IC. Take a Fleshraker and have it pounce on things.

Hashmir
2009-10-16, 02:26 AM
Cleric 1/Church Inquisitor 3/Ordained Champion 1/Divine Oracle 1/Sovereign Speaker 1/Warpriest 1/Sovereign Speaker 2/Contemplative 1/Sovereign Speaker 2/Seeker of the Misty Isles 1/Sovereign Speaker 6//Cloistered Cleric 1/etc...

Character must be a True Neutral Elf with Worldly Focus, Skill Focus (Religion) and Combat Casting. One Cleric "side" should turn undead and the other rebuke. You will need to keep full ranks in:


Knowledge (Arcana) through level 1
Spellcraft through level 1
Sense Motive through level 4
Diplomacy through level 6
Knowledge (Religion) through level 10
Survival through level 13

This is accounting for cross-class skill costs.

So, the build plan:


Level 1: You get 4 domains of your choice plus Knowledge (from Cloistered variant).
Level 2: You get the Inquisition domain.
Level 5: You get the War domain plus 1 domain of your choice (because you "already have" War).
Level 6: You get the Oracle domain.
Level 7: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 8: You get the Glory domain (for the side that turns undead) and the Domination domain (for the side that rebukes).
Level 9: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 10: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 11: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 12: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 13: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 14: You get the Travel domain.
Level 15: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 16: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 17: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 18: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 19: You get 2 domains of your choice.
Level 20: You get 2 domains of your choice.


So, at level 20, you will have the following 34 domains:


Knowledge
Inquisition
Travel
Oracle
War
Glory
Domination
27 others from the standard domain list


Obviously, Spontaneous Domains is a must.

So, what do you think?Any ideas on what to do with those last three unused levels? Any classes I missed?

(Note: Radiant Servant of Pelor doesn't get a domain until the 5th level, and Rainbow Servant requires arcane caster levels. If you allow divine caster levels instead, then you can substitute 1 level for the second level of Divine Oracle (level 7) and pick up three more levels at the end. This will grant you the domains of Good and Air, for a total of 18 domains over 20 levels. Not bad. :smallamused:)

Edit: Fixed requirements and order, fixed Sovereign Speaker. Also, I'm aware that taking Seeker of the Misty Isles is not as good as taking another level of Sovereign Speaker, but I couldn't resist. Why simplify things needlessly? :smallbiggrin:

deuxhero
2009-10-16, 08:05 AM
Sounds pretty good.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-16, 09:05 AM
Yes, but all the good fighter feat's aren't. Not enough to fill 20 levels of double fighter feats anyway.
Off topic, but is there a feat compendium like there is a spell compendium and magic item compendium?

Not sure about it. The problem of that character would be MADness, not good feats.

I'd anyway go Fighter// Feat Rogue. Skills, skill triks, and 32-35 feats at level 20 + uncanny dodge and other goodies through ACFs.

I think that a good polearm built + dragon magazine AOOs feats + charge + combat expertise could be interesting.

Hashmir
2009-10-16, 09:24 AM
Well yeah, but the whole point is to gestalt ACFs of the same class. Of course Fighter//Rogue is better than Fighter//Fighter.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-16, 09:36 AM
Well yeah, but the whole point is to gestalt ACFs of the same class. Of course Fighter//Rogue is better than Fighter//Fighter.

You are right. In short: the problem of fighter//fighter is more madness than the bonus feats combo. this was my point in topic :smallredface:

Tavar
2009-10-16, 09:38 AM
Let's see:
Wilderness Rogue/Feat Rogue using the Penetrating strike, Spell sense, spell reflection, and disruptive attack.
Gains the following skill:Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival.

Also, can take woodland stride, camouflage, and hide in plain site as special abilities. Loses: one instance of Improved uncanny dodge, 2 instances of trapsense, and one instance of Evasion. All in all, a net gain.

Hashmir
2009-10-16, 10:00 AM
I fixed the domains thing, and now I feel dirty. :smalltongue:

Fishy
2009-10-16, 10:12 AM
I'm going to give it to Bard/Bard, I think.

Half Elf Divine Bard//Savage Bard gets all good saves and a nice blend of arcane and divine spellcasting, at twice the spells known of a normal bard and basically no cost. Take the Half Elf substitution levels, and swap one of your Countersongs for Soothing Voice and one of your Suggestions for Command. Swap one of your Inspire Courages for Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic, and swap any other unnecessary bardic music abilities for Eberron's [Bardic] feats. Swap one of your Bardic Knowledges for Bardic Knack, and you now have Fascinate twice but no other duplicate class features. Rock.

EDIT: because this is surprisingly fun.

Shadowcasters^2 are a little bit ridiculously powerful. They don't get spells-per-day, so double Mystery use is even better than double Sorcery. Plus, they get bonus feats for knowing more Paths, and I haven't done the math but I think you get every Fundamental with a few to spare.

Also, Ranger 3/Monk 2/Horizon Walker. It's the basic Horizon Tripper build, except with twice the favored enemies and terrain masteries, and the ability to become a shuriken shotgun. No spellcasting. Core only. Final Destination.

Riffington
2009-10-16, 01:01 PM
Where's this "feats from both sides is legal" business coming from?
Seems to me feats are a class feature like any other, and they progress at the fastest rate of either class. Shouldn't fighter//fighter get the same number of feats as fighter?

Fhaolan
2009-10-16, 02:03 PM
Where's this "feats from both sides is legal" business coming from?
Seems to me feats are a class feature like any other, and they progress at the fastest rate of either class. Shouldn't fighter//fighter get the same number of feats as fighter?

There are some weirdness aspects of gestalt that they're 'tricking' into doing this. Mainly by taking one level in something else, so you start out as say... Rogue//Fighter, and then multiclassing into Rogue 1/Fighter (x-1) //Fighter x so that the bonus feats are alternating as you level.

At least, that's how I understand how the trick works.

Zaq
2009-10-16, 03:11 PM
Would an Incarnate's Expanded Soulmeld Capacity stack with itself? I think having MORE ESSENTIA THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR could be fun. You'd probably run out of chakra slots before you ran out of chakra binds, so it wouldn't be perfectly efficient, but you could finally have enough Essentia!

DementedFellow
2009-10-16, 05:01 PM
Am I crazy in thinking that Truenamer/Truenamer would be a viable same class gestalt?

Flickerdart
2009-10-16, 05:04 PM
Am I crazy in thinking that Truenamer/Truenamer would be a viable same class gestalt?
Yes. There's nothing they get other than more Utterances, and that's not really all that great.

Zaq
2009-10-16, 05:04 PM
Am I crazy in thinking that Truenamer/Truenamer would be a viable same class gestalt?

As someone who is currently playing a Truenamer, I can say with confidence that yes, yes you are crazy.

DementedFellow
2009-10-16, 05:07 PM
Wouldn't the extra knowledge focuses make the checks easier?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-16, 05:24 PM
Wouldn't the extra knowledge focuses make the checks easier?

You get bonuses to research not skill checks.

Zaq
2009-10-16, 05:24 PM
No, they would not. Knowledge Focus gives you a bonus on Knowledge checks. Knowledge checks are not Truespeak checks.

Riffington
2009-10-16, 11:27 PM
There are some weirdness aspects of gestalt that they're 'tricking' into doing this. Mainly by taking one level in something else, so you start out as say... Rogue//Fighter, and then multiclassing into Rogue 1/Fighter (x-1) //Fighter x so that the bonus feats are alternating as you level.

At least, that's how I understand how the trick works.

But that's not legal with anything else.
You can't do Wizard20//Fighter1/Sorcerer19 and have +20 BAB. You can't do Rogue 20//Fighter1/Rogue19 and have +20 sneak attack dice. By the same token, surely if two classes give bonus feats you'd have to take the "better" of those feats progressions?

The one plausible exception is that if you did Fighter//Wizard, you could make an argument that one gives Fighter feats and one gives Wizard feats, and those are different powers, letting you have more extra feats than straight fighter. I still don't buy that - even in that case I think you'd have to take fighter or wizard feat progression (your choice).

Xenogears
2009-10-17, 12:08 AM
But that's not legal with anything else.
You can't do Wizard20//Fighter1/Sorcerer19 and have +20 BAB. You can't do Rogue 20//Fighter1/Rogue19 and have +20 sneak attack dice. By the same token, surely if two classes give bonus feats you'd have to take the "better" of those feats progressions?

The one plausible exception is that if you did Fighter//Wizard, you could make an argument that one gives Fighter feats and one gives Wizard feats, and those are different powers, letting you have more extra feats than straight fighter. I still don't buy that - even in that case I think you'd have to take fighter or wizard feat progression (your choice).

Only if you count the bonus feats as a progression. Seeing as though one bonus feat has absolutely no effect on any future bonus feats then I wouldn't call it a progression in the same way that sneak attack or uncanny dodge is.

Random832
2009-10-17, 01:07 AM
There are all sorts of interpretations - another would be take the better of the two "progressions" (i.e. one bonus feat every second level) and combine the two classes' bonus feat lists (can choose metamagic feats... every second level)

Heck, this isn't even theoretical territory anymore - Fighter//Wizard is legal and probably common, how do bonus feats work with them?

Zaydos
2009-10-17, 01:09 AM
I'd say they get both sets of feats just like a wizard//wu jen gets both sets of spells.
Then again I thought a rogue//spellthief got both sets of sneak attack.

AstralFire
2009-10-17, 11:35 AM
There are some weirdness aspects of gestalt that they're 'tricking' into doing this. Mainly by taking one level in something else, so you start out as say... Rogue//Fighter, and then multiclassing into Rogue 1/Fighter (x-1) //Fighter x so that the bonus feats are alternating as you level.

At least, that's how I understand how the trick works.

The 'one level staggering' has never made sense to me because it's not an allowed trick for anything else except a very, very munchkiny reading of BAB that I've never seen anyone use.

However, bonus feats are not a class feature progression, and having 22 feats from the Fighter Bonus List is not nearly as broken as 20d6 sneak attack. Word usage: broken, not overpowered. 20d6 sneak attack essentially means anything crit vulnerable dies to you, no questions - anything not will likely laugh at you because in every other way you are identical to a normal Rogue and all the weaknesses that that entails.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-17, 12:01 PM
The 'one level staggering' has never made sense to me because it's not an allowed trick for anything else except a very, very munchkiny reading of BAB that I've never seen anyone use.

It doesn't work anyway. You calculate both sides as a whole and take the better progression. Wizard 10//Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9 has a BAB of +5 because the Wizard side is +5, and the Sorcerer side is +5. Similarly, Rogue 20//Spellthief 20 doesn't get +17d6 sneak attack: the Rogue side has +10d6 and the Spellthief side has +7d6, and you take the better progression: +10d6.


Heck, this isn't even theoretical territory anymore - Fighter//Wizard is legal and probably common, how do bonus feats work with them?

In this instance, they're different kinds of bonus feat: the wizard every 5's are metamagic/item creation, whereas the fighter's are fighter feats. In that vein, though, a Feat Rogue//Fighter doesn't get two feats every other level because they're the same kind of bonus feats.