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Merk
2009-10-15, 10:01 PM
Hello all,

I recently came up with a character concept of a lawful good skeleton wizard. I had been since wondering about how I might create a skeleton race that is suitable for players in a standard 3.5e D&D campaign. I did check Libris Mortis, but nothing there appealed to me. This is one of my attempts, and I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions:

Skeletons: Roleplaying

Most skeletons are created as the mindless tools of amateur necromancers, but some skilled necromancers can reanimate skeletons (and other types of undead) with full sentience and memories of their former lives. Ostensibly, necromancers who are capable of this are quite powerful and have their own agendas for creating such undead. By default, a sentient skeleton is under no particular compulsion to serve its master, and under certain conditions may be able to leave its creator. Skeletons generally retain whichever personality, and thus alignment, they possessed in life.

Skeletons, moreso than many other races, are feared and discriminated against. A typical skeleton will find that common humans fear her, necromancers revere her, and self-righteous "holy warriors" want to slay her. In a more diverse or cosmopolitan society, however, many skeletons are able to enjoy a relatively stable life.

The dark magic that animates a skeleton simulates many aspects of its former life. It can, to an extent, replicate physical systems such as sight. It can allow the skeleton to exert force and even increase its own strength and dexterity. Skeletons do not need to sleep, eat, drink, or breathe. Although it is highly dependent on the skill of the creator necromancer, the dark magic that animates a skeleton typically lasts for at least a couple of centuries. Skeletons tend to have a long history relative to the other races considering their former lifespans, and thus have viewpoints that are tempered by time. They share a lot with elves in that regard.

An important point of distinction is that a skeleton is not necessarily a lich. Some skeleton spellcasters call themselves liches, but lich in a technical sense refers to a spellcaster that facilitates his or her own reanimation through the use of a phylactery. Skeletons typically do not seek undeath (most souls prefer a peaceful rest) and do not possess a phylactery.

By and large, skeletons act as they did in their former lives. Skeletons run the gamut of alignments, although their existences are largely ruled by evil magic. After being reanimated, skeletons often pick up where they left off in their former life, but some decide to use the reanimation as a new starting point and make changes. Many skeletons have been known to pick up "Second Names"; pseudonyms conceived post-reanimation in part to disguise their past human (or elven, etc.) identity.

Living Undead Subtype (Ex)

Skeletons are undead creatures that fall into the "Living Undead" Subtype. A living undead is a specially created sentient undead creature whose powerful animating dark magic emulates many aspects of life. A living undead has the following features:

A living undead determines its Hit Dice, Base attack bonus, Save bonuses, and skill points from the class(es) it selects.
Traits
Unlike other undead, a living undead has a constitution score (the dark magic emulates this capability instead of actual musculature and body structure).
Unlike other undead, a living undead does not have low-light vision or darkvision.
Unlike other undead, a living undead is not immune to mind-affecting spells or abilities.
Living undead cannot heal damage naturally.
Unlike other undead, a living undead is vulnerable to sleep effects, paralysis, critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, and ability drain.
Immunity to wounding, poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickness, and death effects.
Living undead are affected by spells/effects that target living humanoid creatures as well as those that target undead. For example, Charm Person can charm a living undead, and Detect Undead can find a living undead. Living undead automatially gain Tomb-Tainted Soul as a bonus feat, regardless of alignment.
Living undead can be turned or rebuked by sufficiently powerful clerics or paladins, but receive +4 turn resistance.
A living undead can be raised/resurrected. This returns the "slain" character back to a living undead state -- s/he cannot revert to a pre-undead living form.
A living undead at 0 hit points is disabled, as a living creature. From -1 to -9 hit points, a living undead is inanimate and cannot take actions, although it does not continue to lose hit points as a living creature does. At -10 hp, a living undead becomes "dead" and is slain as a living creature is. (A skeleton collapses into a pile of bones)
A living undead does not need to eat, breathe, or sleep, although it can still gain benefits from consumable spells/effects such as Heroes' Feast and potions. A living undead wizard must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells (Some actually undergo a process resembling sleep during this time and may even get grumpy if they are disturbed, but nonetheless they are not required to sleep to function properly).

Skeletons: Racial Traits

Undead Type (Living Undead Subtype).
-2 Strength, +2 Wisdom. Although a skeleton's musculature is nonexistent, resulting in less forceful blows, most skeletons gain perspective from additional centuries of false life.
Medium: As Medium undead, skeletons have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Skeleton base land speed is 30 feet.
Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning. Skeletons lack flesh and internal organs.
Light Fortification (Ex): Critical hits and sneak attacks (and similar effects) have a 25% failure rate regardless of whether they hit.
Skeletons have a natural claw attack that deals 1d4 damage.
+2 racial bonus to Knowledge (History) checks. Skeletons have lived up to an entire life previous to their current existence, and so have a good grasp on important events of the past.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any, except for secret languages. A skeleton typically remembers all of the languages it spoke in its previous life.
Favored Class: Any. Skeletons typically continue whichever class they possessed in life. However, skeleton clerics may not choose to channel positive energy or turn undead (they still may have nonevil alignments).


What do you think? How does this skeleton variant stack up against humans, elves, etc.? Would you play a character of this race? What would you change about it?

Milskidasith
2009-10-15, 10:07 PM
I might take this because I'm immune to fortitude saves, but I'd generally rather a human if I'm not getting any ability mods.

Icewalker
2009-10-15, 10:13 PM
So, can be turned, no Con to hp, but DR 5/bludgeoning and a few nice immunities, as well as some interesting side effects.

I'm suspicious of the balance, but not sure myself.

arguskos
2009-10-15, 10:19 PM
Uh... there is no listing of actual TYPE. Do they have the Undead type, but with the listed alterations? Or do they fall into another type? :smallconfused:

Anyways, I like them in general, just curious about the type.

Navigator
2009-10-15, 10:39 PM
My 2 cents
I'd just give them turning resistance +4 instead of the will save stuff. If you do that, you make the DM decide what the DC is for a cleric's turn attempt.

Magic circle of protection against evil normally does not repel undead, unless they are summoned.

Maybe offer an option that allows you to retrain one of your existing feats into one that allows you to benefit from the corpsecrafter and one additional construction feat (like nimble bones).

The +2 to knowledge (history) bothers me a little. This would be appropriate for old skeletons, but nothing guarantees that the skeleton is super old. Suppose you wanted to play an adventure where everyone in the party was freshly animated.

I don't see any problem with giving them the +2 dex they'd normally get from the skeleton template, or even the natural armor.

Aside from critique
From a purely mechanical standpoint, they are fairly easy to kill. The first real turning cleric you run into will dust you (or try to several times), it takes only a 2nd level spell to "dominate" you, and your hit points are seriously lacking without constitution. Though, none of these things are a result of your write-up, just things I would have to worry about as a skeleton PC.

Merk
2009-10-15, 11:23 PM
Uh... there is no listing of actual TYPE. Do they have the Undead type, but with the listed alterations? Or do they fall into another type?

Anyways, I like them in general, just curious about the type.

Good question. I'd probably cast them as Humanoids (or whatever type Humans fall into) with quasi-undead properties so that Charm Person and other effects that would otherwise work on other PCs would work on them.


My 2 cents
I'd just give them turning resistance +4 instead of the will save stuff. If you do that, you make the DM decide what the DC is for a cleric's turn attempt.

Magic circle of protection against evil normally does not repel undead, unless they are summoned.

Maybe offer an option that allows you to retrain one of your existing feats into one that allows you to benefit from the corpsecrafter and one additional construction feat (like nimble bones).

The +2 to knowledge (history) bothers me a little. This would be appropriate for old skeletons, but nothing guarantees that the skeleton is super old. Suppose you wanted to play an adventure where everyone in the party was freshly animated.

I don't see any problem with giving them the +2 dex they'd normally get from the skeleton template, or even the natural armor.

Aside from critique
From a purely mechanical standpoint, they are fairly easy to kill. The first real turning cleric you run into will dust you (or try to several times), it takes only a 2nd level spell to "dominate" you, and your hit points are seriously lacking without constitution. Though, none of these things are a result of your write-up, just things I would have to worry about as a skeleton PC.

+4 turning resistance is probably a better alternative. I'll implement that.

Magic Circle was a poor example due to lack of my knowledge of the spell specifics, but the idea is that any spell that considers alignment treats Skeletons as Evil regardless of alignment. A better example might be that a cleric that casts Protection from Evil receives the +2 AC and saves bonuses against skeletons (as the bonuses apply to attacks/effects of all Evil creatures, not just summoned creatures).

Although a skeleton character implies a former life, mechanically, the character is created normally at 1st level -- a skeleton chooses a class, feat, gets 4x skill points, etc. S/he does not have to "retrain" feats, and thus could have Corpsecrafter or any other feat at level 1, assuming prerequisites are met. 1st level skeletons may represent any of the following: two lifetimes worth of skill accumulation, a relatively peaceful lifetime followed by an undead period of learning, or the revival of a great adventurer who is only beginning to recall his/her skills. In any case, the abilities, class features, etc. of the former life are not taken into consideration at all during character creation. This variant is mainly intended for those who want to play a skeleton from the start of the campaign.

I can understand why the +2 history bonus is questionable. It's a bit specific, though I'd say that a skeleton's average age is considerably older than a human's average age. Depending on the type of skeleton a player chooses, it might be appropriate to swap it out for a comparable bonus.

+2 Dex / +2 Natural Armor seems fair compensation for losing out on bonus HP due to no Con. I'll implement that.

Skeletons definitely have a marked weakness to good clerics, though I don't think the "dominate" effect will work if the skeleton is designated as a Humanoid type rather than an undead type. The HP is also lacking but hopefully with added AC from Dex and natural armor, and some DR, it will be defensively a bit better off.

Ziegander
2009-10-15, 11:40 PM
+4 turning resistance is probably a better alternative. I'll implement that.

If the Skeleton isn't actually Undead, then it can't be turned. In fact...


Skeletons definitely have a marked weakness to good clerics, though I don't think the "dominate" effect will work if the skeleton is designated as a Humanoid type rather than an undead type. The HP is also lacking but hopefully with added AC from Dex and natural armor, and some DR, it will be defensively a bit better off.

...as you mentioned, Command Undead won't work on them either. If they aren't Undead as a type then nothing at all that specifically effects Undead is going to be usable on them. Corpsecrafter included.

It might be easier to say that for the purposes of such spells as Detect Undead, Hold Undead, and Command Undead, but also Hold Person, Charm Person, and Dominate Person the Skeleton is considered Humanoid. From there I would simply say that the Skeleton is Undead but with the other modifications you made.

Aside from the oddity with type the balance seems to work for me. You're rather frail, but the Natural Armor bonuses and DR help to balance that out.

Kuma Kode
2009-10-16, 08:31 PM
Undead tend to be rather frail due to lack of Constitution, but they also have d12s to balance that out. Perhaps mention that the skeleton's HD gained from class increases by one type, with a d12 getting a +1 bonus/level? That would make them a bit more durable.

Or, their Charisma modifier applies to their hit points, implying that the creature's self-identity enhances their animating magic, making it stronger and holding them together better.

Just some ideas.

Cogwheel
2009-10-18, 11:02 AM
I love this idea. In all honesty, it seems a tad overpowered - I can't say exactly what it is. Maybe it's the natural armour. I might just be over-cautious, though. That said, I've always wanted to play undead without going through too much trouble for it - the easiest option at the moment, the Necropolitan.... isn't easy. So I'm incredibly grateful for this.

Oh, and I suggest reimplementing crit/stun/paralysis immunity. From a balance perspective, it makes no sense, so ripping out some other abilities instead may be best. From a fluff perspective, though... well, stun and paralysis? Maybe you can justify it. Crits, though? What vitals can a skeleton have? I suppose you could just hit it really hard... maybe light fortification against piercing/slashing weapons or something like that? Maybe even just against piercing damage? I don't know, it's just a thought.

In any case, thanks again for this. Great idea :smallbiggrin:

Merk
2009-10-18, 12:09 PM
It might be easier to say that for the purposes of such spells as Detect Undead, Hold Undead, and Command Undead, but also Hold Person, Charm Person, and Dominate Person the Skeleton is considered Humanoid. From there I would simply say that the Skeleton is Undead but with the other modifications you made.

Good point. I've edited the template to say pretty much that.


Or, their Charisma modifier applies to their hit points, implying that the creature's self-identity enhances their animating magic, making it stronger and holding them together better.

I like this idea. In fact, I think I'll have it so that wherever a living creature would use its constitution score or modifier (fort saves, hp, concentration, etc.), skeletons will use charisma instead.


I love this idea. In all honesty, it seems a tad overpowered - I can't say exactly what it is. Maybe it's the natural armour. I might just be over-cautious, though. That said, I've always wanted to play undead without going through too much trouble for it - the easiest option at the moment, the Necropolitan.... isn't easy. So I'm incredibly grateful for this.

Oh, and I suggest reimplementing crit/stun/paralysis immunity. From a balance perspective, it makes no sense, so ripping out some other abilities instead may be best. From a fluff perspective, though... well, stun and paralysis? Maybe you can justify it. Crits, though? What vitals can a skeleton have? I suppose you could just hit it really hard... maybe light fortification against piercing/slashing weapons or something like that? Maybe even just against piercing damage? I don't know, it's just a thought.

In any case, thanks again for this. Great idea

Hmm. If I'm going to add charisma modifier to HP, then DR and natural armor may be overdoing it. I think it makes sense to kick the natural armor, as DR already covers the defensive bit of "but I'm made out of bones!"

I always imagined that stun/paralysis effects work a little bit like an Immovable Rod, and so it wouldn't necessarily require muscle mass to prevent things from moving. 25% fortification does make sense, though I think it's fair to say that some joints in the skeletal system are more fragile than others and are responsible for joining multiple areas, so a hit directed at such a joint would be really damaging.

I'm glad you can find a use for this!

sigurd
2009-10-18, 01:38 PM
Seems like a cooked up gimme for a Necromancer.

+2 levels Necromancer, Immunities, damage reduction, full movement, protection from normal skeletal weaknesses (turning), full class progression with no LA or Racial HD, Dark Vision, No eyes to blind, no lungs to protect...

Its not like constitution is likely to be great for a spell caster anyway. No con score is better than a negative one.

Can they be raised? Do they 'die' at 0? -10?
Do they breath, eat, sleep?


If they're going to come back from the grave what about their past lives? What about overcoming the significant destruction of being rendered a corpse\skeleton. Whose spirit inhabits the bones?

Are the walking dead robust in your game world? Most combat stats are only for the length of the encounter, they don't represent the days\nights of wandering\adventuring.

How bout.

-2 int, -4 wis, -4 char, -2 str. Movement 20'

Then add everything else. I really can't see how a skeleton that achieved sentience would not suffer from their living physical statistics.

or

-4 all stats but only -2 on one stat of players choice. No constitution score, 2 levels undead (d12 hd). Phylactery, as a lich. Dedication to some sort of greater power that grants turn resistance. Phylactery is holy item that cannot be handled by other undead. Sleeps the sleep of the dead - 8 hrs in 24 but can delay sleep up to 3 days. Defenseless in their sleep until waking time. Pain in direct sunlight (no damage though).
+2 necromancer caster level.
Undead type, successful turn can mean destruction of body (not phylactery). Rebuke resistance +4.



I think it would be easier to find stats for a ghost that animates a corpse rather than a skeleton. At least ghosts aren't necessarily the products of a necromancer who probably only wanted cheap labour\cannon fodder.


s

Merk
2009-10-18, 03:04 PM
+2 levels Necromancer, Immunities, damage reduction, full movement, protection from normal skeletal weaknesses (turning), full class progression with no LA or Racial HD, Dark Vision, No eyes to blind, no lungs to protect...

Its not like constitution is likely to be great for a spell caster anyway. No con score is better than a negative one.

Can they be raised? Do they 'die' at 0? -10?
Do they breath, eat, sleep?


If they're going to come back from the grave what about their past lives? What about overcoming the significant destruction of being rendered a corpse\skeleton. Whose spirit inhabits the bones?

Are the walking dead robust in your game world? Most combat stats are only for the length of the encounter, they don't represent the days\nights of wandering\adventuring.

I think it would be easier to find stats for a ghost that animates a corpse rather than a skeleton. At least ghosts aren't necessarily the products of a necromancer who probably only wanted cheap labour\cannon fodder.

I wouldn't call 30 ft. speed and turn resistance huge assets -- most races get 30 ft. speed, and most aren't even vulnerable to turning in the first place. I can definitely see there being a case for a level adjustment, though. I'm trying to design this for LA +0, so the best solution from my perspective involves taking away toys so that I don't have to add racial HD or LA. Darkvision isn't incredible, but not having eyes or lungs is pretty big. While they don't have eyes per se, effects that block vision in general, like some of the fogging spells, can definitely affect skeletons.

I added in a rule for stat generation that prevents from dumping a low stat into constitution, but with Dark Vitality, skeletons will probably end up being sturdy enough.

Skeletons do not eat, breathe, or sleep. They are follow normal rules for death and dying (unconscious at 0 HP, dying at -1 to -9 HP, "dead" at -10 HP) and raise/resurrection (which restores them to their skeletal form), with the exception of reincarnation.

Considerations about past lives and spirits are highly dependent on the type of character. There are multiple ways of approaching it -- maybe one skeleton is a seasoned warlord who was killed in his prime, and is now regaining all of his forgotten sword techniques from his previous life. Another might have lived the majority of her life as a farmer, and after her reanimation, decided to learn divination magic. Maybe another lived as a thief, died and rose as a skeleton, and continued on as if it were nothing but a bump on the road. As for the trauma of destruction and reanimation, most new skeletons require some time to "adjust" to the fact that dark magic now governs their bodies and existences. In some cases, it can take days or even months for a skeleton left to its own devices to simply figure out how to move -- eventually, though, a skeleton learns to guide its body as if it had its original muscular system intact. Skeletons who fought with physical strength in their former lives find themselves the most disoriented by the transformation. In this case, necromancy defaults to re-uniting a spirit with its corpse. It would be theoretically possible to reanimate a corpse with a foreign spirit, but it would need to be done intentionally.

This type of skeleton requires the concept of D&D's typical skeleton to be expanded -- yes, amateur necromancers still raise mindless skeletons as cheap service. However, advanced necromancers see and can leverage the potential of more powerful skeletons.

I don't want to impose penalties on a skeleton's mental ability scores, at least from a role-playing standpoint, as liches (essentially self-raised skeleton mages) get a +2 bonus to each score.

Zaydos
2009-10-18, 07:29 PM
The problem is no Constitution score gives a massive list of immunities (any Fort save that doesn't affect objects) and with hp from Charisma that's a significant advantage right there. Then they get +2 Dex, no stat penalty and even with the change to how stats are generated nobody dumps Con to begin with. They also get a +2 CL to necromancy spells and DR 5/bludgeoning. This makes the class excellent for... well pretty much everything. You're trading a bonus feat (which is good) and skill points for +2 Dex, a bonus with necromancy, DR, and immunity to most fort save effects. While the bonus feat is good it's not that good.

Then you have Dread Necromancer, if allowed in the game, which completely break this. Even though they don't gain as much from some of its aspects (specifically DR as it doesn't stack with their existing DR X/magic and bludgeoning) they're first level feat is almost always Tomb Tainted Soul which allows living creatures to be healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy. Then they get Charisma to hp which makes them much tougher than normal (normally Con is their secondary stat because of hp and even then its +2 or 3, now it is +10 because of how caster's max their casting stat). Speaking of which they make excellent members of any Charisma based class, sorcerer, paladin, bard, and even rogue from Core; and the list expands outside (warlock would also be really fun).

While I like the concept (it's been fond to my heart for more than 10 years now) currently they are significantly stronger than humans at most any class. The problem is: skeletons do need DR thematically, and they do need Charisma to hp or they die too easily. The CL to necromancy while thematically nice is just overkill, and the Dex bonus is a little much too. So I think you've given it a good try but there are some problems, so sorry if I came off harshly. I'd like to see the concept work, and I look forward to the finished version, but I think that it still needs some work for the aforementioned reasons.

Zovc
2009-10-19, 12:23 AM
Does the skeleton sleep?

How cool would it be for the party's warrior (always fully covered in armor) to be a skeleton and not have the (good) cleric know?

Rainbownaga
2009-10-19, 02:16 AM
At first I was thinking this inferior to the necropolitan, but I forgot that that was a template; The only problem I see is that the benefits seem to be too good at low level and not particularly useful at higher levels.

As for the turning, people seem to forget the 'bolster' ability of negative energy clerics (and dread necromancers).

sigurd
2009-10-19, 08:45 AM
Its an interesting concept but it seems to have little of the horror of being undead and its negatives.

Level Adjustments do work. This might be a case where they are the better way to go.


S

Galliard
2009-10-19, 11:06 PM
Interesting concept.. have you considered making it a template instead of a full on race?

Antariuk
2009-10-20, 07:17 AM
Interesting idea to use skelettons as race, looks good!

I don't know if you already used it, but in the 3.5 Archives on wizards.com is an article about a skeletton templete you may find useful for ideas: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20010126a

Merk
2009-10-21, 03:36 PM
Skeletons 2.0 are up! This iteration borrows a lot from Eberron's "Warforged" race, including my needing to invent a "Living Undead" subtype of undead. I think this version is more balanced (at least with respect to the warforged and hopefully to humans as well). The biggest change from before is the re-institution of a Constitution ability score, which I think fixes a lot of the potentially over-powered effects of skeletons in the last iteration (namely the wide immunity to fort save effects and charisma-oriented classes having too much HP).


Does the skeleton sleep?

How cool would it be for the party's warrior (always fully covered in armor) to be a skeleton and not have the (good) cleric know?

Yes and no. A skeleton does not need sleep to function, but the dark magic animating them can emulate sleep. Some are used to sleep and will get grumpy if woken up prematurely. Also, skeleton wizards and similar casters still need their 8 hours of rest to prepare, during which period they are effectively defenseless.


At first I was thinking this inferior to the necropolitan, but I forgot that that was a template; The only problem I see is that the benefits seem to be too good at low level and not particularly useful at higher levels.

That's a good point. Hopefully Skeletons 2.0 are a bit better about that (Light Fortification seems at least decent at any level). I will point out that plenty of core races also have bonuses that scale poorly (e.g. +1 attack bonus to kobolds/goblinoids/orcs -- how often do you fight those at 20th level?)


Its an interesting concept but it seems to have little of the horror of being undead and its negatives.

Level Adjustments do work. This might be a case where they are the better way to go.

I would love to add in ways for skeleton characters to experience the horror of being undead, though I'd add that vulnerability to turning and instant destruction via good clerics is pretty terrifying in its own right. In addition, assuming you're a skeleton in a party of more traditional races, the cleric who probably has a wand of Cure Light Wounds will be scrambling to find ways to heal you, especially if s/he cannot channel negative energy. From a roleplaying standpoint, skeletons (and other undead) are more hated and feared than even the fiercest orc barbarians or gnoll savages. At least monstrous humanoid races can be reasoned with, traded with, and worked into urban societies. Undead are associated with mindless automatons of destruction, and so suffer greater stigma. Being undead pretty much paints a sign on your forehead that screams "destroy me" to many self-righteous agents of "Good" such as over-bearing paladins and clerics -- even if you yourself are saint-like in conduct.

A level adjustment might work, but hopefully skeletons won't need it any more. I wanted this version to be playable from level 1.


Interesting concept.. have you considered making it a template instead of a full on race?

Yeah, that was one of the first decisions I made. Since my character concept involved starting out as a skeleton (with a human backstory), I decided to develop a race. I might make a similar template for characters who are interested in a reanimation in the middle of a campaign.


Interesting idea to use skelettons as race, looks good!

I don't know if you already used it, but in the 3.5 Archives on wizards.com is an article about a skeletton templete you may find useful for ideas: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20010126a

Thanks! I did check out the skeleton template, which is why they have DR 5/Bludgeoning.