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Darkameoba
2009-10-16, 02:57 AM
What is the best was to build a ranged combat character? is it even worth it?

im talking bows/crossbows here not magic/psionic ranged stuff

Schylerwalker
2009-10-16, 03:23 AM
Well, obviously, the best classes to use when trying out ranged are the fighter and the ranger, or a combination of both. A low-level ranger/fighter has more feats than you can shake a +1 longsword at, has a respectable amount of both hit points and skill points, and actually has the BAB to HIT something with a bow.

Yes, it IS worth it. At least in my opinion. A character with a bow will do less damage than some schmuck with a greataxe, but they'll be avoiding those full attacks from the dragon, and the more spread out the party is (I.E., some guy in front and some guy in back) the less high-damaging area-effecting spells you'll be effected by. Also, because you do slightly less damage, you'll be targeted less.

Let's try a little character building. We'll assume 30 point stat buy for ability scores. So, obviously, we want a high Dexterity, a decent Strength and Constitution, and possibly an alright Wisdom and Intelligence. Charisma? Pah! I sneer at your Charisma (Unless you really want to go into some cool prestige class. ~Eye roll.~) So! Here's what we should have.

Strength 14 (6 points)
Dexterity 16 (16 points)
Constitution 14 (22 points)
Intelligence 12 (26 points)
Wisdom 12 (30 points)
Charisma 8 (Sneer!)

So, race? Well, your two best choices for a pure bow character (SCREW crossbows, my friend, screw them) are human or wild elf. Let's try human first.

Class? Hmmm. Let's assume starting at first level. Ranger! Normally I'd say Fighter, but being as you're a human, you already have that bonus first level feat, and starting out as a ranger at first level gives you three times as many starting skill points. Bam! You get Track for free, Spot and Listen as class skills (Invaluable!) good BAB, a good Reflex save(!), and a favored enemy (For that added oomph so often lacking with a ranged character; pick human if it's a normal D&D campaign, or cross-reference with your DM if something is actually more common than that. Cuz I mean...human!)

So, your first feat? Point Blank Shot. +1 to attack and damage with a ranged weapon as long as you're within 30 ft. of your opponent. Standard feat of the archer. Put max ranks in Spot (Just in case your target is hidden!), Climb and Jump (To get to those good sniping positions) and Move Silently (Again, so you can get that flat-footed shot). Stay relatively close for Point Blank Shot bonus (At THIS level, anyways), and try to stay behind cover whenever possible.

Second level? Another level of Ranger my friend! Bring on the Rapid Shot! Get an additional attack, suffering a -2 to each attack. Why is this better than two-weapon fighting? First of all, no threat of a full attack repercussion next turn. Second? Same bonus to damage with each shot; none of that off-hand attack crap! You get another 8 skill points (Human! Don't forget that extra skill point!), and your Ref save goes up a little. But Rapid Shot is the main reason you took another level in this class.

Third level, you obviously go in to Fighter! You get TWO feats (One for being third level, one for that fighter bonus feat). You take Precise Shot and Dodge. Dodge? Why Dodge you say? What a lame feat! Patience, my friend. It is of some use at 3rd level, and it is the prerequisite of the feat that will save your ass later!

Fourth level, again fighter. Take Mobility! That way, if you need to scramble out of melee to get your potshot off...bam! My AC just went up by 4! Woohoo! (Which stacks with Dodge; dodge bonuses ALWAYS stack. Isn't that awesome?) Also, raise your Dexterity by one. Doesn't do anything now, but...where else were you gonna put it? Honestly?

So, by this point you have a +8 to attack (If your weapon is masterwork, WHICH IT SHOULD BE by this point!), and do 1d8+3 damage (If it's a mighty bow and you're point blank range). Or you can get two attacks (At fourth level, I will remind you!) for +6 to attack each, 1d8+3 damage a pop, all from the safety of the backline, behind the fighter and the cleric.

Fifth level? Hop right back into ranger. Endurance? Eh, whatever. It's a free feat, and why the hell would you keep going into fighter at this point? Pah! Sixth level, you take another level of ranger. You can now cast spells (I would recommend Longstrider as your one spell per day at this point), get an animal companion (Hawk/eagle, as a spotter for your badass sniper self), and you get your sixth level feat; SHOT ON THE RUN. Oh my god. Shoot; move into cover. Next turn? Move out of cover; shoot; move back into cover. How's that for awesome?

Seventh and eighth level, keep going into ranger. You'll raise your Dex, another first level spell (Entangle?) and second level spell (Can I get a Cat's Grace! Woo-woo!) and your Improved Combat Style. Your favored enemy also goes up!

Now, if you were a wild elf, I'd say lower your Dex a bit (It would be the same) and put some more points in Int (Being a wild elf lowers your Int as opposed to Con). Then, at 9th level, take a level of wizard. Take Weapon Focus (longbow), which works for the composite and mighty composite versions of the weapon. And then, at 10th level...yup, you guessed it; Arcane Archer!

Wow, that was a lot longer than I planned on making it. I hope this helps!

Ecalsneerg
2009-10-16, 03:25 AM
Arcane Archer... or just buy magic arrows or a magic bow?

Grumman
2009-10-16, 03:43 AM
I can think of a few ways: Bloodstorm Blade lets your thrown weapons count as melee attacks, with all the normal tactics for increasing damage this allows.

Alternatively, a Spellthief 4 (or Trickster Spellthief 2) can learn Sniper's Shot. This lets him sneak attack from long range, which lets him steal another spell to power his next Sniper's Shot. Make the rest of the build the usual Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter and he'd be pretty good at harassing enemies from extreme range.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-16, 03:48 AM
Arcane Archer... or just buy magic arrows or a magic bow?

Yeah, or save money, go into Arcane Archer, and buy better armor and other defensive items? A 10th level arcane archer with a +1 bow (With other qualities, like distance and seeking, on it) is still firing +5 arrows. They don't stack, sure, but...still! Ow!

Darkameoba
2009-10-16, 03:51 AM
Schylerwalker, damn, just...damn that was incredibly useful. only have 2 questions for ya, what weapon ( i was thinking great bow, or composite great bow if they exist) and why no scout? thought it was a pretty good ranged class?

golentan
2009-10-16, 04:10 AM
Personally, I like building ranged characters as follows:

Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5/Gravy.

Make sure to take power attack, brutal throw, and power throw as feats. Bonus points for rapid shot and two weapon fighting. For your talents take Palm throw, Trip shot, and Weak Spot.

You now power attack for as much as you can get away with with a whole bunch of thrown daggers (or shuriken). These are touch attacks if the enemy is your size or bigger. You get 2 attacks with each roll. You can modify your attack rolls with strength (but lose str to damage when it's a touch attack or palm throw. No injunction against power attacking though!). And every time you do damage, you can make a trip attack (not as useful for you, but if you've got some muscle in front or are facing a flying foe this is great). And you can monty python any big dumb armor.

Eldariel
2009-10-16, 04:12 AM
First, I'm gonna have to link the unfinished-but-usable Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0).

A few quite decent ways about it:
1. Martial Archer
Martial (non-precision damage) archer taking the Weapon Specialization-line, and any fixed bonuses he can find. In Core, you pretty much have to go straight Fighter with few Ranger-levels for skills to get any damage bonuses (though Barbarian-dip boosts your Str for damage so it isn't useless).

With Completes & PHBII in the deal, this build kinda doesn't need Fighter anymore; Pious Templar [Complete Divine] gets Weapon Specialization for free on level 3 allowing you to qualify yourself for Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII]. With Barbarian-dip for Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and Extra Rage [Complete Warrior], you can reach a very respectable damage output along with skills.

There's also Order of the Bow Initiate [Complete Warrior], but unfortunately due to Rapid Shot, archer should always be full attacking making their primary class feature (Ranged Precision) completely worthless. That said, they get Close-Combat Shot on level 2, which is useful. Exotic Weapon Master [Complete Warrior] gets it with 1 level though if you're using an exotic bow such as the Greatbow [Complete Warrior].

With all 3.5 books in the mix, you can find two decent Prestige Classes just for archers. There's also a Barbarian-lookalike class in Races of the Wild called Wildrunner that gets you a Rage-like ability in 2 levels. As it's Su, you could argue it's different enough from Barbarian's Rage to be usable with Whirling Frenzy. There's also Cragtop Archer in Races of Stone that gets abilities that help you shoot really far. Unfortunately, it doesn't really get damage increases, but being able to shoot at targets from 1000' away is useful; even a big Dragon takes a round to run that far.

Finally, there's Justice of Weald and Woe in Champions of Ruin. It gets some Sneak Attack (and thus is more of a Rogue-class), Lucky Shot to get some Insight-bonuses once per day, Poison Use, ability to shoot without AoOs in melee, some spellcasting and Hide in Plain Sight. A fine PrC for archers, overall. Except it's medium BAB. DRAT! It's worth noting that there's Targeteer Fighter-variant in Dragon Magazine (also found at Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)) that gets Dex to damage and some extra attacks with a bow; must if you can use it.

Now, martial archers really want 3.0 books. There are 3 great Archer PrCs in 3.0 none of which have a real 3.5 equivalent. First, there's Deepwood Sniper in Masters of the Wild who's...a really good ranged Sniper. Gets range increment reductions, Keen arrows, critical multiplier increasements, some handy spell-likes and various other great abilities.

Then there's Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] that gets POWER SHOT on level 3 and ability to take AoOs with Bow on 8. Only way to get Power Shot short of Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Has few other handy abilities too. Should always have 3 levels of if available.

Finally, there's the real Order of the Bow Initiate [Sword & Fist]; pre-3.5, this was actually a good class! Bonus attacks, Wis+Dex to hit, Sneak Attack, Close-Combat Shot, extra Specialization, the 3.0 version is a great archer base! Too bad they had to screw it up in 3.5. There's also Weapon Master in Sword & Fist that's not really designed for archers (and thus hard to enter), but has great class features once you get in, especially if you can threaten with a bow.


Short version:
In 3.5 alone, I suggest Ranger/Pious Templar/Barbarian/Wildrunner with Fighter or Justice of Weald and Woe to finish off. One level of Cragtop Archer is a solid option too.

With 3.0, I suggest you either go Deepwood Sniper, OotBI or Peerless Archer, and either way take a look at KSB Snow Owl's Archery Builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0).

2. Tome of Battle Archer
Tome of Battle Archer is the second great option. Works at any range, kicks butt. Basically, the idea is to take the few maneuvers in Tome of Battle that work with archery and utilize them to great effect along with a class that happens to be perfect for archery.

If you can use Homebrew, you can also take a look at Martial Compendium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=804856) and the various "Falling Star"-disciplines for ranged attacks along with Sublime Way variant Ranger and such. But otherwise, I suggest one simple build:


Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade

This is a competent melee'er and an absolutely incredible archer, especially later on once you get Knowledge Devotion going, and eventually Time Stands Still. You use magic items to acquire higher level Tiger Claw maneuvers named Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose which go incredibly with archery.

Otherwise, you use your maneuvers for counters, helping out your allies (you have White Raven-access over your entire career) and to pick up the slack in melee.


The simplier build is plain Ranger 2/Warblade 18 or Warblade 20, but I find Eternal Blade way too good to pass up on. Ranger gets you the skills you need. Fighter gets nice bonus feat, and Barbarian Whirling Frenzy. 48 attacks in a turn on level 20 when he feels like it.

3. Swift Hunter
This is a Ranger/Scout [Complete Adventurer] with his namesake feat Swift Hunter [Complete Scoundrel]. Basically, you get Skirmish-damage vs. your favored enemies (even if they're normally immune) and stack Ranger & Scout-levels for Skirmish & FE. The trick here is that Skirmish is precision damage and can normally only be applied within 30'.

Ranged Skirmisher [Dragon Magazine/Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)] can increase that to 60'. Either way, you need to move 10' to activate Skirmish, which can be achieved with a DC 40 Tumble-check [Oriental Adventures], Sparring Dummy of the Master [Arms & Equipment Guide] + Use Magic Device or Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] in combination with a full attack.

Travel Devotion is by far the best way; dipping one level in Cloistered Cleric with Travel & Undeath-domains gets you 4 Travel Devotion-uses per day, enough to last you all day. This way, you can activate Skirmish all day (Travel Devotion allows moving as a swift action for 1 minute when activated). The other option is Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) which gets you the ability to attack as a Standard Action.

Swift Hunters have great damage, but I don't like them since they aren't efficient beyond close range, which removes much of the reason to be an archer in the first place. A spell called "Sniper's Shot" [Spell Compendium] removes the range descriptions, but can be tricky to acquire. By the way, Mystic Ranger [Dragon Magazine//Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php)] is a very good idea for Swift Hunters.

4. Precision Archer
More accurately, Rogue. A Rogue can be a great archer, Hiding/Invisible and shooting full attack Sneak Attacks. Not much to say here; what applies above applies here (though getting ranged Sneak Attack vs. creatures immune to it is really hard). Pick up the normal Rogue-feats like Craven [Champions of Ruin] & Darkstalker [Lords of Madness] and go to town.


So yeah, primary non-caster archers in the game here. As far as caster archers go, Cleric 20 is very good as is Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4. Archivist 20 is like Cleric, except doesn't get Domains but gets Rangers' Archery-spells. Trade-off, but a reasonable one. So yeah, there.

Overall, archers' damage relies heavily on their enchanted bow. That's why you want Greater Magic Weapon from party caster (completely obsoletes Arcane Archer outside Imbue Arrow, btw), a lot of money/bonuses on your weapon (stuff like Item Familiar, Ancestral Relic and Mercantile Background help here) and some enhanced arrows.

Regardless of what kind of an archer you are. But the above are probably the best archers available in 3.5. I'd personally go with the Eternal Blade if only for the eventual power it reaches, and the fact that it's a respectable melee combatant too.

ex cathedra
2009-10-16, 04:14 AM
Ranger/Scout with a feat called Swift Hunter. This is a common and highly effective build.

Also, Soulbows and Archivists make terrific archers.

Edit:
Eldariel, you are certainly the most thorough ninja I've ever had the pleasure of being ninja'd by.

Darkameoba
2009-10-16, 04:24 AM
I'll look into the eternal blade, sounds like fun. so does the straight up rogue build

ex cathedra
2009-10-16, 04:30 AM
The range limit on precision damage limits rogues. However, the feat Crossbow Sniper alleviates this somewhat. It lets you add 1/2 your dex modifier to crossbow damage and doubles the range at which you can deliver sneak attacks.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-16, 04:38 AM
Schylerwalker, damn, just...damn that was incredibly useful. only have 2 questions for ya, what weapon ( i was thinking great bow, or composite great bow if they exist) and why no scout? thought it was a pretty good ranged class?

It depends on the style of ranged fighter you're going to be. People have often suggested the ranger/scout combo to me. It DOES sound cool at first. The problem? The scout's major feature requires you to move at least 10 feet. The ranger's main combat feature? Requires that you stand still and make a full attack. So, if you were using the whole Shot on the Run combo, Scout MIGHT be worth going into. But it would tie up your fighter bonus feats, good Fort save from fighter (Incredibly useful), fighter hitpoints, and ranger levels as well.

Remember, if you're building a character at high level (Like, for a battle royale/arena style thing), you don't have to worry about where your levels will go. But, if you're building from the ground up, you have to go with the flow. Maybe you'll have to take a level of this or that earlier on because of something the DM threw at you.

Bunch of guys with a good to-hit-roll? Damn, I'll need to qualify for Shot on the Run quicker so I can avoid those guys with the crossbows. Bunch of guys lobbing illusions and hold spells at you? Curses, I'm gonna need to swap out that feat I was planning on taking for Iron Will.

Grumman
2009-10-16, 04:42 AM
There's also Cragtop Archer in Races of Stone that gets abilities that help you shoot really far. Unfortunately, it doesn't really get damage increases, but being able to shoot at targets from 1000' away is useful; even a big Dragon takes a round to run that far.
1000? Try 2,500 (15 165ft range increments.). Throw Distance on your composite longbow and you can shoot them from a mile away.

Eldariel
2009-10-16, 04:43 AM
Heh. I'd like to add something that I did, of course, keep in mind writing all that but didn't spell out: Getting bonuses to hitting with a bow is relatively easy. Or rather, your base To Hit tends to be quite sufficient as a focused archer, and the feats you want anyways (such as Ranged Weapon Mastery) and the ones available to you (Improved Rapid Shot) already improve your To Hit quite a bit.

Same isn't true for damage though. That's why I always focus on what you can do to improve your damage as an archer; the standard Longbow will be dealing the same 1d8 on 1 and 20, and the +5 Longbow will still only deal 1d8+5. Composite? Add your Str to that (better have high Str, btw). Bottomline, it's not very much. So your feats and build should be focused around improving your damage. Same with your weapon; in Core, my bow would be +1 Holy Frost Shock Flaming just to get damage wherever applicable; Greater Magic Weapon makes it +5 anyways.


So yeah, all of the above builds focus on getting as much damage out of the deal as possible, through precision damage, feats or just an obscene number of attacks per round to bypass this issue. Being able to attack from 1000' away is no good if the opponent's DR 15/- means you can't actually damage it.

By the way, one of the reasons I love Eternal Blade is that the class's level 2 ability allows you to ignore DR with Swift Action, usable infinite times per day. It's just what an archer wants (though the Force-enhancement on a bow does the same; I don't like relying on magic items as they're easier to take than your life).


Also, Schylerwalker's problems have all been addressed in my post. There are ways to take full attack while moving over 10'. There are also ways to take more than 1 shot as a standard action.

Shot on the Run is horrible. You need 2 other feats to get it (one of which is worthless Mobility; you can cross-class Tumble with your Dex to never provoke AoOs again, and the other is +1 AC for a guy who shouldn't get attacked that much anyways) and it means you cannot full attack.

Seeing that Rapid Shot is the big thing going on for archery, not being able to full attack really, really sucks. So yeah, I strongly suggest against that. The principal issue really is that while you might get your own ass out of trouble, D&D is a party game and your other party members aren't as lucky. And now you're dealing miniscule damage, ensuring that they will take the beatdown.



1000? Try 2,500 (15 165ft range increments.). Throw Distance on your composite longbow and you can shoot them from a mile away.

The problem isn't weapon reach, it's detection reach. You can spot targets 1000' away as a Cragtop Archer relatively easily. 15k' is a bit harder though. You really need Scrying or something to locate your targets at that point.

ex cathedra
2009-10-16, 04:46 AM
It depends on the style of ranged fighter you're going to be. People have often suggested the ranger/scout combo to me. It DOES sound cool at first. The problem? The scout's major feature requires you to move at least 10 feet. The ranger's main combat feature? Requires that you stand still and make a full attack. So, if you were using the whole Shot on the Run combo, Scout MIGHT be worth going into. But it would tie up your fighter bonus feats, good Fort save from fighter (Incredibly useful), fighter hitpoints, and ranger levels as well.


... what? That's extremely misleading.

Firstly, finding a way to move 10ft. and full attack is arbitrarily easy, and there are several guides on the topic hidden in this very forum.

Secondly, Greater Manyshot says hello and wants to be friends.

Edit:

Additionally, in any conversation about ranged character I feel that I should mention the Energy Bow. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

That single weapon solves many of the problems faced by ranged combatants (lack of damage, ammunition, incorporeal enemies, etc.) It's worth seeking out with many bow users.