[3.5] The Magic of Incarnum

[Zovc]

So, I read MoI last night briefly, and can safely say, I don't get it... at all.

The frist time I glanced through, I was like, "Oh, cool, they don't need magic items." I stopped there, the second time I looked at the book, I looked at the Incarnate and the chakra names/effects. The Incarnate seems to suck (poor BAB?), and so do the chakras.

Can someone explain to me what is good about Incarnum? (What about the Incarnate, I really don't get 'I've practically got magic items, but am horrible at combat!')

[Foryn Gilnith]

The only thing I've ever used Incarnum for were a few dips so I could get either a neat effect like Planar Ward, a feat like Wormtail Belt; or a dip beelining to Umbral Disciple for permanent concealment (hide checks).
Maybe Sinfire or somesuch could elaborate on the totemist's/incarnate's strategy as a single-class.

[Tavar]

Actually, due to the fact that it has several ways to boos it's attack bonus, the Incarnate can be a decent combatant. The real sucktastic class is the Soulborn.

Here's a link to the Incarnum handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0), by our very own Sinfire Titan.

Now, for a simple explanation: There are 2 main parts of Incarnum, Soulmelds and Essentia. Soulmelds are things that you can shape, thus granting you a bonus. If you invest essentia in them, you get more/larger bonuses, as detailed by the meld. You can also Bind melds to your Chakras, getting better/different effects in addition the the ones you get for shaping stuff. However, binding a soulmeld means that you can no longer use items that would have used that slot on the body.

Incarnates can be decent skill monkeys or combatants with some limited healing, depending on your choice of soulmelds. Totemists can be scary natural attacks, and basically make for a much more balanced druid. Soulborns suck due to low essentia and soulmeld gain.

[Sinfire Titan]

Totemist: Think Shapeshift variant Druid, minus spellcasting. Add in gratuitous amounts of Magical Beasts abilities, and there you go. It quite literally is the 'Build your own monster" class. They can Tank, Scout, and even do Battlefield Control (ala Dragonfire Adept). All you need to do is focus on one job at a time.



Incarnate: More of a skill monkey than anything, the upside to the Incarnate is how high the numbers can get. Its a mini-Artificer (minus broken), mixed with the Fighter (minus feats and iterative attacks). The key to playing it is to focus everything into one point. If you want to tank, play Lawful and focus on attack rolls. Have the rest of your party back you up. If you want to play support, play Good and invest heavily into Use Magic Device. If you want to replace the Rogue, Chaotic is the best alignment (sort of). Evil is for abusing the Elder Evil splat, and works best as a Glass Cannon (though your defenses can get fairly high even as a cannon).



Soulborn: Sucks. Seriously, it's almost as bad as the Divine Mind from CP. The regular Paladin is better, as is the Spinemeld Warrior PrC.



Incarnum itself in a nutshell:

Each Soulmeld acts like a "larval" form of a magic item. The character's meldshaper level is the caster level of the Soulmeld for all purposes and intents (such as suppressing them via Dispel Magic), and Soulmelds react to spells the same way magic items do (the exception is Sundering or damaging them, Soulmelds have no HP and no Hardness, and are effectively impossible to break through Sundering or similar abilities).

Essenita is like the enhancement bonus you normally put on armor and weapons. Only every soulmeld grants something different for investing essentia into it. The meldshaper has an essentia pool (which is the total amount of essentia he has, including what's been invested in the soulmelds/items) and can use a swift action to "move" essentia between his pool and any number of his soulmelds or class features (he can't do this with feats, save for the Cobalt Rage feat, but that requires a prestige class to do). He has a limit to how much essentia he can invest in a single soulmeld. Typically, it's his Character level divided by 4, but some effects can improve this value (a feat, a magic item, and two class features).

The maximum essentia capacity a standard 20th level Incarnate or Totemist character can have is 8 (Totemists can exceed this value, but only temporarily). The meldshaper doesn't need to meet the maximum capacity in order to invest in a soulmeld (he can have as little in each soulmeld as he chooses, so long as he doesn't exceed the capacity).


Chakra binds are where the system gets a little tricky. Normally, shaping a soulmeld makes it hover above the corresponding magic item slot (the Bluesteel Bracers, for example, occupy the same slot that bracers of Armor do). While a soulmeld is not bound to a Chakra, the body slot is considered open. As long as it is open, you can gain the benefits of every soulmeld or magic item that occupies that slot without penalty (but you don't get the benefits for binding the soulmelds to that chakra).

Upon binding a soulmeld to a chakra, the meldshaper effectively closes that body slot for the next 24 hours. No other soulmeld or magic item may occupy that body slot unless the item says ignores the Chakra bind restriction or the meldshaper has the Split Chakra/Double Chakra feat. This is akin to donning a magic item (you can't gain the benefit of a Monk's Belt and a Belt of Giant Strength without a special item or feat being involved).

There's a limit to Chakra binds, however: No individual soulmeld may be bound to more than one chakra at a time. One class feature allows you to bypass this restriction, but even that is restricted in use.

There are 11 chakra slots. Crown, feet, hands, arms, brow, shoulders, throat, waist, heart, totem, and soul. Meldshapers gain access to new chakra slots as they gain levels. The most powerful slots (arguably) are the Heart, Soul, and Totem slots.

Each chakra slot corresponds to a magic item body slot (except the Totem):
Crown: Head or Helm
Feet: Boots
Hands: Gloves, or gauntlets
Arms: Bracers
Brow: Eye
Shoulders: Cloaks, capes
Throat: Necklaces, amulets
Waist: Belts, greaves
Heart: Vests
Soul: Armor

The totem is an exception: it has no corresponding magic item slot. It can be anywhere you want it to be, but the soulmeld bound to it must be shaped on another chakra slot (binding a soulmeld to your Totem chakra does not cut off access to any other body slot).


I really should do another handbook for Incarnum. One that explains everything to the best of my grasp over the English language. I really wish I saved that old Gleemax post...

[Starbuck_II]

Soulborn sucks because they over rated full BAB.
Too little essentia/chakras.
They have few other issues, but that is main problem.

[Sinfire Titan]

Soulborn sucks because they over rated full BAB.
Too little essentia/chakras.
They have few other issues, but that is main problem.

It isn't just that. Some of the best of the Soulborn's soulmelds offer saving throws, thus they have to go through Spell Resistance. His Meldshaper level is 1/2 his class level, meaning he can't make that type of roll at the higher levels (because of how fast SR scales). His class features are also not geared towards combat (save for the feats and smite ability, but those aren't that powerful). Obviously, there's more than just this, but that's the key point. By the time he gets meldshaping abilities, his enemies have started to manifest Spell Resistance.

[Starbuck_II]

So the 1/2 meldshaper issue is another? I guess they saw him like a Pally who gets 1/2 caster.

How many Soulborn meldshapes have SR issues?

[tyckspoon]

So the 1/2 meldshaper issue is another? I guess they saw him like a Pally who gets 1/2 caster.

How many Soulborn meldshapes have SR issues?

mm.. book says "any soulmeld used to affect a creature other than the meldshaper." Which is rather horribly vague and I hope there's a clarification of it somewhere else. On its face, however, that could apply to all of the Soulborn's bonus damage options- the sonic damage from Thunderstep boots, the ranged damage bonus from Sighting Gloves, the investment bonuses for Bluesteel Bracers and Mauling Gauntlets.. I don't think these are *intended* to have to deal with SR, but the relevant text (that I can find) only says what I quoted, and getting smacked with xd4 sonic damage is certainly affecting a creature other than the meldshaper.

Edit: Soulborns also have the problem of being not especially unique even when they do finally get to start playing with meldshaping; many of their useful melds overlap with the Incarnate's list, and the unique soulborn melds can easily be cherry-picked and put to better use by an Incarnate or a Totemist using the Shape Soulmeld feat. A Totemist will get more use out of the Thunderstep Boots than a Soulborn ever will, for example.

[Dragonmuncher]

Heh, that was a pretty big nutshell.

But yeah, Totemists can be quite good. It's been said that to truly understand MoI, you should read the book twice.

The first time I read it, I was almost overwhelmed by the new system, the new classes, all of the new items... when I took a second look, I actually came here and posted, "Maybe I just don't understand Incarnum well enough... but it looks like Totemists can be very, very powerful?"

It turns out, yes. Yes, they can.

[Sinfire Titan]

So the 1/2 meldshaper issue is another? I guess they saw him like a Pally who gets 1/2 caster.

How many Soulborn meldshapes have SR issues?

They're second to the Totemist, but there's enough good effects that offer a saving throw that it renders their best melds worthless at the mid-levels. Here's a list:

Arcane Focus (oddly sucks for a Soulborn)
Enigma Helm (no saving throw, but depends on the Meldshaper level)
Fearsome Mask
Flame Cincture
Gloves of the Poisoned Soul (a Fort save even!)
Necrocarnum Circlet (animate a 10hd Zombie at 20th level!)
Necrocarnum Shroud (level-dependent save and effect)
Necrocarnum Touch
Necrocarnum Vestments
Silvertongue Mask
Thunderstep Boots
Wind Cloak (against Tiny or smaller creatures only)


mm.. book says "any soulmeld used to affect a creature other than the meldshaper." Which is rather horribly vague and I hope there's a clarification of it somewhere else. On its face, however, that could apply to all of the Soulborn's bonus damage options- the sonic damage from Thunderstep boots, the ranged damage bonus from Sighting Gloves, the investment bonuses for Bluesteel Bracers and Mauling Gauntlets.. I don't think these are *intended* to have to deal with SR, but the relevant text (that I can find) only says what I quoted, and getting smacked with xd4 sonic damage is certainly affecting a creature other than the meldshaper.

If a Soulmeld gives you a bonus, it applies to you. If a soulmeld requires an enemy to save against an effect, then they get SR too. I derived this from the Totemist class (as having to roll SR in addition to every single attack would be absurd).

[Zincorium]

Three things to realize when judging the relative power of incarnates and totemists:

Many feats grant an essentia, and bonus essentia can be taken by any reasonably well-built meldshaper at any time feats are gained. Essentia *can* be plentiful.

Capacity is power. The totemist's bonus capacity for the totem chakra and the expanded capacity feat (which is awesomely flexible) can put a meldshaper ahead of the game- as a 2nd level totemist with that feat, you can bind a claw-granting soulmeld to your totem, spend three essentia, and have two or more +3 weapons. And it easily keeps pace as you go up (+8 weapons are possible at the end levels, as there is no restriction on enhancement).

You are supremely flexible. If you can figure out what you're likely to fight, you can equip yourself to take advantage of it's weaknesses.

[Blackfang108]

one other thing of note: Ignore the HD size while you're looking at the Incarnate and Totemist. You're going to have enough CON that even rolling all 1s will make you abount as fragile as a brick of titanium.

Example: For one game, I put together an ECL 20 Incarnate with ~22 CON(+6).

20 * 6 = 120 hp before rolling for hp. A minimum max HP of 149. I've had a frontliner with little more than that at 20.
And you'll want around a 19 CON by ECL 20 anyway, so that you can shape and bind the maximum number of melds allowable.

[Tavar]

Example: For one game, I put together an ECL 20 Incarnate with ~22 CON(+6).


That's really low for an Incarnum build. I've seen builds that reach 22 before level 10(18+2level+2item), by level 20 I'd expect to be nearing 30.

Still, you're right about their fragility. Though I think bricks of titanium are a bit more fragile.

[tyckspoon]

That's really low for an Incarnum build. I've seen builds that reach 22 before level 10(18+2level+2item), by level 20 I'd expect to be nearing 30.

Still, you're right about their fragility. Though I think bricks of titanium are a bit more fragile.

26 to 30ish would be about right, I think, especially for a Totemist. Incarnum classes aren't really completely SAD, tho, so they can't in practical terms afford the mono-focus that gets you 36 casting stat fullcasters.

[Sinfire Titan]

26 to 30ish would be about right, I think, especially for a Totemist. Incarnum classes aren't really completely SAD, tho, so they can't in practical terms afford the mono-focus that gets you 36 casting stat fullcasters.

If they care about their damage output, then no, they can't focus on Con alone. An Incarnate can get up to +50 on attack rolls before Strength, so it is kinda affordable to dump it, but they want it at least at 13 before level 3. Dex is kinda important too.

That said, the best Con score you can get without LA is Dragonborn Mongrelfolk. 18 base+6 Racial+5 levels+5 Inherent+6 Enhancement=40. A Totemist that pretends to be a Dragonfire Adept could make that work very easily.

[Blackfang108]

That's really low for an Incarnum build. I've seen builds that reach 22 before level 10(18+2level+2item), by level 20 I'd expect to be nearing 30.

Still, you're right about their fragility. Though I think bricks of titanium are a bit more fragile.

I don't remember my exact CON, I know it was at least 22. i've since lost my sheet, so I can't be sure.

But, yeah, I think it was closer to 26.

20*8=160, minimum hp=189. My Duskblade was 204 for comparison, and he was Duskblade 20/Fighter 2. (ECL 22)

Duskblade was a human and the Incarnate was a Rilkan.

[Magnor Criol]

If I remember correctly, Fax Celestis loves Incarnum. If you're curious, you could send him a PM, I think he'd have some good words of advice for you.

[Zaq]

A Totemist that pretends to be a Dragonfire Adept could make that work very easily.

Hmmm. Can you apply a DFA's breath effects to breath weapons granted by other sources? It's clearly against RAI, but is it against RAW? I don't see anything in the wording of the breath effects that would limit you... I'm not sure how HELPFUL that would be, but it would at the very least be interesting.

I'm not easily coming up with any way of really utilizing a DFA/Totemist combo that wouldn't be better off as just a straight-class one or the other, especially since DFA is so freakin' stingy with the breath effects (for good reason, maybe, but still), but it's nevertheless an intriguing concept.

Also, why would you need to get 26 or whatever CON on an Incarnate? They benefit from CON the same way every other class does, of course, but they don't need to pump it like a primary casting stat. Once they have 19, they have all the direct benefit to their soulmelds that a good CON can apply. Sure, I can see getting it to 20 because round numbers are good, and it'll certainly never HURT you to have a nice CON score, but I can't see pumping it too far past 20 unless you're already set for your other stats. Or, I guess, if you want to be O-Chul. (And really, deep down, don't we all want to be a little like O-Chul?) Still, I'd start either boosting WIS or STR at that point, or DEX if you're an archer-type Incarnate (boring, but possible). Granted, I've never played an Incarnate past level 3 or so, but still.

[Fax Celestis]

If I remember correctly, Fax Celestis loves Incarnum. If you're curious, you could send him a PM, I think he'd have some good words of advice for you.

I do indeed.

Consider thus: each morning, you make a bunch of floating, slotless items. These are soulmelds. It's a bit like legos, actually: you get the pieces to build what you want.

Then, you can turn some of these slotless items into slotted items by binding them to a chakra, thereby taking up that space on your body but gaining additional power. Also like legos, it's like building something basic.

You have a small pool of energy you can allocate between these slotted and slotless items as a swift action as often as you like. There's no lego corollary here, but consider it like a starship going "all power to forward shields" or whatever.

That's the basics. Incarnum characters make items out of soulstuff, bind them to their bodies with mystic energy, and power them with their inherent extra soulstuff (essentia).

When it comes to individual characters, take a look at the sheer numbers of natural attacks a totemist can pump out: four claws and a bite is two binds (Girallon Arms, Worg Pelt), and they can pounce with it with another bind (Sphinx Claws). You can get a slam or other various effects rather readily. Add in Urskan Greaves or Thunderstep Boots and you can add d4s of damage (and a save or stun with the latter) when you charge.

As for incarnates, consider stacking properties into a variety of bonuses. Incarnates (particularly lawful ones) can get a gigantic bonus to their to-hit inordinately easily. Similarly, an Incarnate can grab a multitude of skill bonuses (Lucky Dice, Sailor's Bracers, Acrobat Boots, etc) with a minimum of effort, and can boost the one they need that round with a simple swift action. Incarnates make terrific skillmonkeys due to that, despite being non-Int-dependent and getting 2+Int skills per level.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Oddly, Incarnum is very useful for gestalt characters, especially if you invest in a good CON score. Lots of the feats meant for multiclass incarnum characters really come into their own in a gestalt game. Incarnate/cleric, totemist/warblade, totemist/barbarian, incarnate/druid... really, meldshapers can help out just about any class.

[Starscream]

Totemist: Think Shapeshift variant Druid, minus spellcasting. Add in gratuitous amounts of Magical Beasts abilities, and there you go. It quite literally is the 'Build your own monster" class. They can Tank, Scout, and even do Battlefield Control (ala Dragonfire Adept). All you need to do is focus on one job at a time.

This. Totemists are fun, and just powerful enough to really make a difference without being broken.

[lsfreak]

You have a small pool of energy you can allocate between these slotted and slotless items as a swift action as often as you like. There's no lego corollary here, but consider it like a starship going "all power to forward shields" or whatever.

It's those little one-space "buttons" that you stick on other legos, that don't really seem to do much of anything at first glance, at least compared to the rest of the construction. Every round you can reallocate the "buttons" onto different legos, making them more or less powerful depending on what you happen to need at the moment.

[Indon]

Oddly, Incarnum is very useful for gestalt characters, especially if you invest in a good CON score. Lots of the feats meant for multiclass incarnum characters really come into their own in a gestalt game. Incarnate/cleric, totemist/warblade, totemist/barbarian, incarnate/druid... really, meldshapers can help out just about any class.

It's also surprisingly potent in high-power E6, because of the proliferation of Incarnum-boosting feats.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It's also surprisingly potent in high-power E6, because of the proliferation of Incarnum-boosting feats.

There's also the issue that incarnates tend to start off strong, then progress much like fighters. I've got a rough understanding off the class, but the starting 3d6 touch attack from lightning gauntlets does not progress well.

Both totemists and soulborns suffer from this less than the incarnate, one due to natural attacks, the other due to just always being subpar.

[Pie Guy]

And keep in mind that you have to designate a soulmeld to be in one chakra. This means that you can't have two helmets, but if a soulmeld can occupy two different chakras, you can, say, have Incarnate weapon and Necrocarnum weapon at the same time.

[jindra34]

And keep in mind that you have to designate a soulmeld to be in one chakra. This means that you can't have two helmets, but if a soulmeld can occupy two different chakras, you can, say, have Incarnate weapon and Necrocarnum weapon at the same time.

Unless you use the double chakra feat, which does exactly what it sounds like.

[Akal Saris]

One quick and easy house rule that would probably help the soulborn quite a bit would be to use the Pathfinder rules for half-casters like paladins and rangers, so instead of CL = 1/2 level, it's CL = character level minus 3 (so meldshaper lvl 17 at 20th).

The only time I've used a soulborn personally was for a character build that tried to get into the Suel Arcanamach with full BAB and no paladin levels, and the only other classes I could find with the right skills were hexblade and soulborn.

[tyckspoon]

Also, why would you need to get 26 or whatever CON on an Incarnate? They benefit from CON the same way every other class does, of course, but they don't need to pump it like a primary casting stat. Once they have 19, they have all the direct benefit to their soulmelds that a good CON can apply. Sure, I can see getting it to 20 because round numbers are good, and it'll certainly never HURT you to have a nice CON score, but I can't see pumping it too far past 20 unless you're already set for your other stats. Or, I guess, if you want to be O-Chul. (And really, deep down, don't we all want to be a little like O-Chul?) Still, I'd start either boosting WIS or STR at that point, or DEX if you're an archer-type Incarnate (boring, but possible). Granted, I've never played an Incarnate past level 3 or so, but still.

On an Incarnate? You probably won't, depending on how exactly you decide to play it. If you're going skillmonkeying, you don't need the Con all that much. If you're going to take advantage of the to-hit bonuses you can generate to do direct combat, you need it for all the same reasons every other frontliner type does. Most of your best combat soulmelds don't offer saving throws, and your DCs are based on Wis anyways.

For a Totemist, however, which is what Sinfire referenced? Save DCs are based on Con. If you want to make good use of the monster-like attacks you can get from your soulmelds, you pump Con.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hmmm. Can you apply a DFA's breath effects to breath weapons granted by other sources? It's clearly against RAI, but is it against RAW? I don't see anything in the wording of the breath effects that would limit you... I'm not sure how HELPFUL that would be, but it would at the very least be interesting.

A Gestalt DFA//Totemist would be able to apply Breath Weapon effects to the Totemist soulmelds.


I'm not easily coming up with any way of really utilizing a DFA/Totemist combo that wouldn't be better off as just a straight-class one or the other, especially since DFA is so freakin' stingy with the breath effects (for good reason, maybe, but still), but it's nevertheless an intriguing concept.

That's the idea really, you do one or the other depending on what you need to cover. If you need the occasional melee character, the Totemist works just fine. If you just need BC, then DFA is the better option.


Also, why would you need to get 26 or whatever CON on an Incarnate? They benefit from CON the same way every other class does, of course, but they don't need to pump it like a primary casting stat. Once they have 19, they have all the direct benefit to their soulmelds that a good CON can apply. Sure, I can see getting it to 20 because round numbers are good, and it'll certainly never HURT you to have a nice CON score, but I can't see pumping it too far past 20 unless you're already set for your other stats. Or, I guess, if you want to be O-Chul. (And really, deep down, don't we all want to be a little like O-Chul?) Still, I'd start either boosting WIS or STR at that point, or DEX if you're an archer-type Incarnate (boring, but possible). Granted, I've never played an Incarnate past level 3 or so, but still.

Str is more important. Wisdom is nearly useless to the Incarnate (despite boosting Save DCs; oddly enough Incarnates have the least number of soulmelds that offer a saving throw).