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View Full Version : [3.5] Rewarding Players for "A Level of Commoner."



Zovc
2009-10-16, 11:31 AM
A friend and I were talking about how it seems fun to start players off as commoners (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm) for the first level (or maybe for the first session).

First of all, commoners are weak. It'd probably be better to have players start off as one of the other NPC classes (Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm), Aristocrat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm), Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm), Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm)). Either way, that's not quite the focus of this post.

A level of commoner doesn't give you very much (which is why I pointed to the other classes), so it's no big boost to just put a class level on top of that and consider the character a "strong level 1." What methods do you recommend for rewarding a character for surviving a level of "commoner."

I'd assume a good, systemic way to reward the player would be to essentially erase [class] 1 off of the character sheet, leave all the stuff it gave you, and put Fighter 1 where it was. You get some extra skill points, 4 hit points, and nothing else this way, though. The main idea here would be to keep your level of commoner from making you an epic character earlier.

I'm sure this system could be refined a little more, but how would you recommend rewarding players for surviving as commoners?

jcsw
2009-10-16, 11:33 AM
Chicken Infested Flaw.

:P:P

Kylarra
2009-10-16, 11:34 AM
Delevel it and give them improved toughness and openminded. :smalltongue:

mem0man
2009-10-16, 11:37 AM
Actually had a campaign like this one time and what our DM did was essentially start us at negative XP. When we hit 0 we got our standard character creation all over again like the Commoner thing had never happened but the skills, extra HP, saves and BAB were all there from a phantom level that never held against us for multiclassing. It was kinda fun but it was also a bit different because the level 1 class we took were based on how we played the character as the commoner/npc class level not what we originally intended.

Just remember that if your party is full of commoners, house cats, farm animals and farm work are all valid reasons to give them XP lol.

Myou
2009-10-16, 11:38 AM
Why not just start them a level 1 commoners, then, after 500 or 1,000 xp, replace he commoner level with a real class level? Then level as normal from 1.

woodenbandman
2009-10-16, 11:39 AM
^^Lol, that's like the beginning of Ogre Battle.

"What dost thou hold within thy sword?"

Cieyrin
2009-10-16, 11:54 AM
I'd let them keep the hit points and skill points and possibly grant a no-strings attached bonus feat, which is sort of what I'm doing in my Peasant Quest! thread.

Person_Man
2009-10-16, 12:14 PM
The Survivor PrC (Savage Species) requires that your highest base Save bonus must be lower then your character level. So you can either take a level of Commoner at first level and enter Survivor at second level, or you can wait until 5th level for any other class. It's a funny PrC. Over 5 levels you get Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and all strong Saves. But you also get +0 BAB at every level, and the Skills (you basically keep your previous Skill list, but only get 2 + Int per level) suck.

Still, with the right cheese it can make for some interesting builds.

AstralFire
2009-10-16, 12:31 PM
Is this a universal or optional rule?

If it's universal within the campaign, that really translates into a general bonus houserule that everyone is playing under, and I think 'conversion to Fighter level' is an excellent way to do it - that's a very good boost to melee types and the Fighter list is general enough that even a caster can benefit. If it's an optional choice, however, that depends on a few other things - for example, how easily you let people die and (if they come back) letting them start out with a higher level character who can assume the same bonus.

Averagedog
2009-10-16, 12:46 PM
I would either give them an extra feat, or + 2 to any one stat based off of their character's personality / background. In addition to the either or, I would give them the improed toughness feat of 3 + 1 per level.

Milskidasith
2009-10-16, 01:17 PM
Actually had a campaign like this one time and what our DM did was essentially start us at negative XP. When we hit 0 we got our standard character creation all over again like the Commoner thing had never happened but the skills, extra HP, saves and BAB were all there from a phantom level that never held against us for multiclassing. It was kinda fun but it was also a bit different because the level 1 class we took were based on how we played the character as the commoner/npc class level not what we originally intended.

Just remember that if your party is full of commoners, house cats, farm animals and farm work are all valid reasons to give them XP lol.

I don't see how it would be fun to be forced to play a class you didn't want to based on the fact your DM thought your personality fit. I mean, for one thing you could be screwed on ability scores, and also you can play a class however you want; for example, I can play a druid who works a mercenary and mostly a melee fighter, or as a nature revering hippy, or as a very devout man of a god of nature. However, I'd probably get Fighter, Druid, or Cleric from those.

Zovc
2009-10-16, 02:36 PM
I'm thinking about homebrewing a "0th level" for a few archetypes.

"Warrior" gets a BAB and a fighter bonus feat(?). "Expert" gets a large amount of class skills (of his choice?) with Able Learner. "Adept" gets a per encounter spell-like ability, he uses 1 as his caster level. If the Adept gains level in another class, he adds the spell to his spell list for that class as a level 1 spell, and uses his caster level from that class as his caster level for the SLA. If he gains levels in a nonspellcasting class, he uses half his class levels (rounded up*, minimum 1) to determine his caster level.

*I say rounded up because you could say that you effectively are your level +1 since you went through adventures "before you were level 1."

Perhaps using this as your base level ("starting at 0"), you get your constitution score as HP instead of using a hit die?

It'd probably be best to have a list of level 1 spells that a character can have as their spell like ability, spells like burning hands and magic missile are what I have in mind. Cure light wounds could be cool (becoming a Sorceror or Wizard, you add it to your list).

This resembles what Dijinn(_in_tonic?) was doing for G6, last I checked.

mem0man
2009-10-16, 02:45 PM
I don't see how it would be fun to be forced to play a class you didn't want to based on the fact your DM thought your personality fit. I mean, for one thing you could be screwed on ability scores, and also you can play a class however you want; for example, I can play a druid who works a mercenary and mostly a melee fighter, or as a nature revering hippy, or as a very devout man of a god of nature. However, I'd probably get Fighter, Druid, or Cleric from those.

I believe it was more or less a role playing exercise that more then effectively made all involved think as opposed to showing up with an entire 20 level plan to each session. I like CharOP as much as the next guy but OPing on the fly with something you weren't prepared for exercises your mind a bit more. It is alot nicer considering you are forced to die sometimes when you don't want to.

Telonius
2009-10-16, 03:00 PM
I'd give him a +1LA race or template for free.

Milskidasith
2009-10-16, 03:34 PM
I believe it was more or less a role playing exercise that more then effectively made all involved think as opposed to showing up with an entire 20 level plan to each session. I like CharOP as much as the next guy but OPing on the fly with something you weren't prepared for exercises your mind a bit more. It is alot nicer considering you are forced to die sometimes when you don't want to.

First of all, you don't have to charOP to have a character concept in mind, or to know that getting stuck as a rogue with dex 12, con 12, and int 20 isn't going to work. Second, I would rather have a character I like die than play a minute as a character I dislike.

Zovc
2009-10-16, 03:37 PM
Please stop trollin', we're not talking about optimization or forcing players to do thing they don't want (to a certain extent, at least).

Milskidasith
2009-10-16, 03:44 PM
Please stop trollin', we're not talking about optimization or forcing players to do thing they don't want (to a certain extent, at least).

Actually, the poster I was responding to was talking about both of those things (the DM got to choose what class they took based on how they acted, and he brought up CharOP.)

Myrmex
2009-10-16, 03:49 PM
First of all, you don't have to charOP to have a character concept in mind, or to know that getting stuck as a rogue with dex 12, con 12, and int 20 isn't going to work. Second, I would rather have a character I like die than play a minute as a character I dislike.

That wouldn't be so bad, actually. I prefer int as my highest stat on rogues. UMD means never having to worry about hitting.

20 wis, now that would suck.

Cieyrin
2009-10-16, 03:57 PM
That wouldn't be so bad, actually. I prefer int as my highest stat on rogues. UMD means never having to worry about hitting.

20 wis, now that would suck.

Sounds like a Temple Raider of Olidammara to me.

Jarawara
2009-10-16, 07:33 PM
Actually, the poster I was responding to was talking about both of those things (the DM got to choose what class they took based on how they acted, and he brought up CharOP.)

No he didn't. Look at the relevant part of the post:

"It was kinda fun but it was also a bit different because the level 1 class we took were based on how we played the character as the commoner/npc class level not what we originally intended."

He didn't say the DM chose his class for him. He said he was able to re-make the character upon reaching 1st level. And as a result of playing time as a commoner, he ended up making a different character than what he originally envisioned.

I think it would be cool to be able to remake a character after playing it for a little bit - but then again, I routinely allow that. If the player doesn't like what he had developed, I allow a 'remake' of the character to better reflect what the player now has in mind.

Jarawara
2009-10-16, 07:46 PM
As per the original idea, I've been doing that in my campaign now for some time - allowing all of the NPC classes as an 'extra' pre-level to the character.

I did it as I wanted the beginning characters to have more 'oomph', more history of who they were before they were PC's, and because I wanted more skills all around.

I don't (or only rarely) start them at NPC-only level. Instead, they may simply start at 1st level with an additional level of NPC class.

The effects of both classes stack, so a Warrior/Fighter would have a D8 and a D10 of hit points (both at max, as per any starting character), a +2 Bab, and 2x4 Plus 2x4 skill points at start. Warrior/Wizard or Warrior/Rogue are common choices, for those who want an early hp buff.

Adept is split into Adept (divine spells) and Apprentice (arcane spells), to avoid the oddity of having half-n-half of each type in the pre-level class. I sometimes restrict the use of these classes, to avoid the 'everybody gets a spell of their own' effect, but I am undecided on the issue.

Expert is chosen for those who want lots of skills, (redundant if you were going to choose Rogue). Aristrocrat is only allowed by DM option, but I usually bend if you have a good character concept.

Nobody picks 'Commoner'. :smalltongue: Pick Expert for a farmer with lots of farming knowledge.


Now one of the main reasons I do this is because I tend to have a rather tough campaign, and I have slow level advancement. Correction: I have *glacially slow* level advancement (a quote from one of my players). So to boost survival, and provide flexibility with the skill list, I found this to be a good solution. And yes, if the story works best to start really early in one's carreer, starting them with just the NPC class works too, then advance to 1st level but not counting against the total level. Heck, I started them out as children once, let them advance from there! :smallbiggrin:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-16, 07:57 PM
Please stop trollin',

Please don't ever accuse people of trolling.

Phantom level is the simplest solution, and it seems a simple enough boon. You get some skill points in random Profession skills and an extra handful of HP. Just don't let it mess with feats/epic/etc., and you're set.

Set
2009-10-16, 08:16 PM
Why not just start them a level 1 commoners, then, after 500 or 1,000 xp, replace he commoner level with a real class level? Then level as normal from 1.

That's the idea solution, IMO.

I'd allow someone with Expert levels to trade them in for Rogue levels, someone with Warrior to trade them for Fighter, etc. levels and someone with Adept to trade them in for caster levels, with some training. Having someone go from NPC 'hedge mage' to full-fledged Wizard or Cleric could be a neat story-concept.

As mentioned by someone upthread, I don't use Commoner anyway. NPCs with levels are at least Experts, if not Aristocrats, Warriors or Adepts.

jmbrown
2009-10-16, 08:41 PM
Give the character more than one level in commoner? The way I see it, two or three levels in commoner is a good starting point for a potential adventurer and they're not likely to die horribly. However, track their xp as a negative value and when they hit 0 remove a level of commoner and give them a level in a PC class. When they hit each level do the same (remove a level in commoner) until they overtake their npc class.

Elana
2009-10-17, 01:58 AM
The way I would handle this is by just letting them gain XP like someone of 1 level less.
(So based on their CR instead of actual Character level)

The XP gain they receive in higher levels should compensate for having a single level in a crappy class.


Now if they need to take more than a single level things could get tricky.

Maybe counting NPC levels only as half levels.
(You probably get more warriors than fighters that way)

Reluctance
2009-10-17, 03:38 AM
What do you expect the players to do with their commoners? Is the goal of this to start them out as even weaker than normal first level characters, or is it to have a prelude before they get their adventurer on? Either way, there might be better ways to go about what you want.

First level in D&D already feels like you just fell off the turnip truck, with the heroic feel only really picking up some time around level 3-5. If you want to catch the experience of people caught in a situation without gear or preparation, just start everybody off strapped for cash. If your players are up to playing characters unprepared for the adventuring life, they'll be just as able to do so with apprentices caught in dramatic events. If they're not up to it, they'll be playing farmhands with the keenest military minds you've ever seen.

If you want a prelude, to hell with what the rules say a commoner should have and just role-play it. Exposing fragile prelude characters to lethal situations is bad form, so the only real dice-rolling you might do is stat checks. If you want to bribe the players for taking the first session out as a prelude, give them some free skill ranks or roleplaying XP based on what they did. And if you want to especially ensure that your players feel tied to the campaign, give plenty of downtime between adventures for the PCs to establish other interests. The greatest warrior in the land teaching his son to follow the family way is can be as character-defining as the moment a young farmhand first picks up a sword, after all.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-17, 05:46 AM
Hey look: a homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6527724#post6527724) for just this sort of situation.

Apply as needed, and watch the fun factor spike if your players aren't munchkin tools. :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2009-10-18, 01:26 AM
The Survivor PrC (Savage Species) requires that your highest base Save bonus must be lower then your character level. So you can either take a level of Commoner at first level and enter Survivor at second level, or you can wait until 5th level for any other class. It's a funny PrC. Over 5 levels you get Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, and all strong Saves. But you also get +0 BAB at every level, and the Skills (you basically keep your previous Skill list, but only get 2 + Int per level) suck.

Still, with the right cheese it can make for some interesting builds.
Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7125840&postcount=6). :smallbiggrin:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-18, 01:29 AM
Aren't level 1 characters presumed to have years and years of training in their class? I seem to remember the PHB talking about being, for instance, 2d4x10 years older because you're a wizard.


On the flip side, some classes, such as sorcerers, get their powers during puberty

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-18, 08:18 AM
For humans, classes take either 1d4, 1d6, or 2d6 years to train. Sorcerer is 1d4, representing either late onset (that's 1d4+15 years of age) or learning how to not randomly kill people.
A wizard human could be young as 17.

Cieyrin
2009-10-18, 10:30 AM
For humans, classes take either 1d4, 1d6, or 2d6 years to train. Sorcerer is 1d4, representing either late onset (that's 1d4+15 years of age) or learning how to not randomly kill people.
A wizard human could be young as 17.

Damn Harry Potter Wizards, thinking magic is easy and stuff.

Coppertop
2009-10-18, 10:43 AM
Damn Harry Potter Wizards, thinking magic is easy and stuff.

Actually, I see Harry Potter Wizards as Sorcerers; natural inborn talent honed by years of adorable scampery at a classic British boarding-school setting. There's even mention of bloodline arguments in the PHB, the more I think about it, the more it makes freaking sense. And HP was first published in 1997, and the 3rd Edition Core was introduced in 2000...

I know that's not the point of this topic (and that there's no real connection :smallbiggrin:), but you can't stop me. This is the interneeeet!

Jergmo
2009-10-18, 11:00 AM
+1 Adamantine Farming Implement of Bane: Plants! :smallfurious:

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-18, 12:07 PM
How about, if they take a level of commoner and +1 "effective" LA (meaning they're a level behind, not even including the level of commoner), and can survive, they get a feat at every odd level? 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc, AND get a double-share of treasure? And maybe stat-boosts at every even level, rather than every 4.