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Tyger
2009-10-16, 01:46 PM
In a new campaign starting up in a week or so, I am going to give a very sub-optimal character a shot... a barbarian / cleric. He has an intelligence of 6 and a wisdom of 16.

That said, I have never played a really low INT character before, and am having some small issues with how to manage his almost sub-human intellect against a higher than average insight and perception...

I can't help but think of Grimlock from the old Transformers cartoon... "Grimlock SMASH red truck robot!"

Megaduck
2009-10-16, 01:51 PM
For low Int and high Wis I always think of Dory of the Fish from finding Nemo.

Remember, that with high Wis you are very good at making the right decisions. You're also in touch with your feelings and other peoples feelings. So you'll often know what is the right thing to do but you can't figure out why.

You can play it as too stupid to fool. Your character will always see the reality of the situation and not be distracted by all the fussy little details.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-16, 01:54 PM
Hitpoints is like a box of Chocolates, you never know what you gonna get.
Forrest Gump would be a good one.
Or the idiot who blathers all the time then says something ingenious. Sifting the chaff from the wheat might be a challange for your fellow players though. Or maybe the nearly silent type, who says things only when it's important, but it will almost always be very important.
Just some ideas.

Morty
2009-10-16, 01:56 PM
I imagine a low INT but high WIS character as someone who's not a fast thinker and learner, but is firmly grounded in reality and has a strong common sense.

jmbrown
2009-10-16, 01:57 PM
You have a natural understanding of the world but lack the rational reason behind it. For example, a child knows fire is hot but they don't understand the chemical properties that create fire.

I can imagine the character doesn't speak much but when he does everyone stops to listen.

EndlessWrath
2009-10-16, 02:00 PM
Low int... your simple. To my understanding. You don't need to fuss over complications and details. You don't have to be dumb, or use the cheesey dumb voice. I had a similar character. Didn't use a lot of words, but knew what to say when to say it. You don't have to use fancy words, just the words that matter. You have unnatural ability to perceive the world correctly, but maybe you can't describe it how you should or what not. Simple, basic, but good at it.

thats my 2 cp anyways.

-Wrath

Godskook
2009-10-16, 02:01 PM
I keep going back and forth on which stat is his low one, but there's at least a pretty convincing argument for Luffy(One Piece) having low int, high wisdom, high charisma.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-16, 02:12 PM
Well…I mean…if you’re rocking six intelligence, doesn’t that mean that not only can you not read, you probably wouldn’t be able to learn if somebody taught you? And don’t you speak in monosyllables?

We’re not talking wise and noble savage here. You’re not tarzan. You are generally dumb as a brick. In fact, if you piled a couple bricks together and animated them, they would probably outclass you in trivial pursuit.

You’re not going to understand abstract concepts, regardless of how simple or complex they get. Science, magic, basic stuff like this, you will not even begin to grasp. You also won’t learn for crap. It will take forever to get you to figure out the basic concept of a lever.

SO how does high wisdom play into it? You’re stupid but…cautious, shall we say? Fire may burn, but you’ll only let it burn once. Play to the animal instinct side. You have highly honed instincts and reflexes when it comes to some things. You know when someone is getting angry. You know when there could be danger around. You know when something is going to kill you. You react on a base level to things…a symbol that some people would see as an obvious death image is something that, while you couldn’t make any analysis of it, would start setting off your fight-or-flight response.

Basically…play a dog or wolf that can talk in monosyllables and hold an axe.

Telonius
2009-10-16, 02:12 PM
The janitor from The Breakfast Club comes to mind. (He probably had an INT higher than 6, but he hits the general idea).

Basically, you have no idea what a hypotenuse is, or how to do complicated math, or what the population of Macedonia is. But you know when somebody is about to make a total fool of themselves, you know when to talk and when to shut up, and you took all the advice in "The Gambler" to heart.

Tyger
2009-10-16, 02:21 PM
Well…I mean…if you’re rocking six intelligence, doesn’t that mean that not only can you not read, you probably wouldn’t be able to learn if somebody taught you? And don’t you speak in monosyllables?

We’re not talking wise and noble savage here. You’re not tarzan. You are generally dumb as a brick. In fact, if you piled a couple bricks together and animated them, they would probably outclass you in trivial pursuit.

You’re not going to understand abstract concepts, regardless of how simple or complex they get. Science, magic, basic stuff like this, you will not even begin to grasp. You also won’t learn for crap. It will take forever to get you to figure out the basic concept of a lever.

SO how does high wisdom play into it? You’re stupid but…cautious, shall we say? Fire may burn, but you’ll only let it burn once. Play to the animal instinct side. You have highly honed instincts and reflexes when it comes to some things. You know when someone is getting angry. You know when there could be danger around. You know when something is going to kill you. You react on a base level to things…a symbol that some people would see as an obvious death image is something that, while you couldn’t make any analysis of it, would start setting off your fight-or-flight response.

Basically…play a dog or wolf that can talk in monosyllables and hold an axe.


That's a bit far for a 6. "Humanlike intelligence" starts at 3. So yes, a 6 is low, but not animalistic. Granted, its on par with Trolls and Ogres, but its a bit up from signing with the chimps and grunting. :)

Toliudar
2009-10-16, 02:24 PM
I'm having good fun playing someone who has a 6 int and 18 wis (Psychic Warrior). I think of him as a very spiritual and calm presence, but who doesn't process new information very quickly, and who frequently misinterprets data. I would describe the Hulk Smash archetype as low int LOW wis.

Zen Monkey
2009-10-16, 02:28 PM
There are a couple of archetypes that you could use.

One could be the tribal shaman role, wise in the ways of the spirit world and mostly taught by oral tradition, but no formal schooling aside from talks with the wise man of your tribe. You would know about horses and your religion's story of how they came to be, but wouldn't have gotten the idea to build a cart that they could pull for people and objects.

Another could be the rural monk route, knowing your faith's tenets but not really questioning them in any logical manner. If cut off from larger civilization, you may have never needed math, science, history or come across anything of a complex mechanical design. Maybe you memorized the Tao Te Ching, but a trigonometry textbook is just meaningless symbols.

Your average farmer has what, 8-10 int? Your average farmer knows about rotating crops and the value of his harvest at the market and how to fix his equipment when it breaks. He has some technical proficiency and knowledge of his trade. Your character is only a -1 penalty behind that guy.

jiriku
2009-10-16, 02:28 PM
Basically, you'll do stupid things, but your high Wisdom means that you'll instinctively avoid endangering yourself through stupidity. You're sensitive enough to what's going on to get that you shouldn't anger the powerful king or throw the torch into the room where the lamp oil is stored.

Also, purely OOC: it's often fun to play a dumb character doing dumb things, even when you as the player know better. Be sure to do this only when it will get laughs and cause everyone else to have fun. Don't do it in situations where that would annoy or upset other players. Remember that the other players are stuck with your character, so make the experience an enjoyable one for them.

ocdscale
2009-10-16, 02:49 PM
Think of all those stereotypical "street-wise" characters that aren't the brightest bulb in the pack, but understands how things are supposed to work in their city.

You can think of a general high wisdom as being very 'life-wise'. You know where things fit in the world.
In a group of strangers, you may not be smart enough to understand the all the implications of what they are talking about, but you might have a very good sense of the power structure and who wields what kind of influence.

Or if you think about a game of chess.
Your opponent moves their knight.
Someone with 18 int and 12 wis might start with calculating the material and positional advantage of a dozen different responses then start playing those moves ahead a dozen turns before deciding on the path with the best result.
Someone with 12 int and 18 wis might start with figuring out what his opponent is trying to do, what his opponent wants him to do, think back about the tempo of the game and how his opponent is trying to win, and then counter it.

6 intelligence and 16 wisdom represents to me a character that has a very tenuous grasp on abstract thought (mathematics, language), but has an uncanny insight into the natural order of things.
You could characterize that insight as an extremely heightened instinct, a wealth of common sense, or a sixth sense about the world.

As an interesting thought experiment. Think about the kind of personality someone would have if they were stupid but had a thousand years of life experience.

Person_Man
2009-10-16, 03:08 PM
You could also just be a garden variety religious fanatic.

Poor Int:

You can't read (or rarely choose to do so). You're not curious about the world, so even if you're acutely aware of everything going on around you, you often dismiss it as being useless, pointless, wrong, etc.
You have a strict moralistic view. Everything is black and white, with no shades of grey in between.
You can't comprehend others when they challenge your pre-existing beliefs, and/or you fall back on tautological arguments that you've learned by rote.
You're nearly incapable of learning new things (your Skill Points are going to be garbage, btw) with the exception of better ways to hit things or channel your god's power.


High Wis:

Huge Willpower/Will Save. No one is going to convince you to do anything you don't agree with.
Very perceptive: After years of converting heathens, you've learned to pay close attention to how they talk and act so that you can pounce on any opportunity to bludgeon them with your beliefs (or your mace). You're also inherently distrustful of others, and think that everyone is conspiring against you, and so you keep a very close eye on they body language and listen intently to others for hints of vile plans against you.
Common Sense: You grew up in poverty and/or a very rural area, and thus have a very good sense of how to survive in nature, how to Heal injuries, how animals act, the law of the jungle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Law_of_the_Jungle), and other "street smarts" (never loan someone money because they're not going to pay it back, keep a supply of food because you never know where your next meal is coming from, etc) which are basically just a manifestation of your paranoid, myopic view of the world.

sadi
2009-10-16, 03:43 PM
I keep going back and forth on which stat is his low one, but there's at least a pretty convincing argument for Luffy(One Piece) having low int, high wisdom, high charisma.

I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

snoopy13a
2009-10-16, 03:49 PM
Clever*, great at reading people and possessing common sense but not someone you'd want doing your taxes.

I'm sure you've heard people say that they aren't "book-smart" but they are "street-smart"%? Well, the low INT, high WIS character is actually this. The problem the D&D mechanics have with this character model is that skill points are tied to one's intelligence so in a practical matter this becomes difficult.

*Cleverness and intelligence aren't the same thing.

%Usually the people who say this are neither :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2009-10-16, 04:05 PM
I'm playing an Int 10 Wis 24 Cha 5 dwarven druid right now. I play him as unhygenic, illiterate, zealous, adamant in his convictions, and argumentative--but on the flip side, he's also very very perceptive: he notices anything out of place, finds things he shouldn't, and frequently points out little inconsistencies that the more intelligent characters later take advantage of.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-16, 04:16 PM
@Person_Man
Eh. . .
I challenge the idea of a low Int seen the world in black and white, though they are by no means mutually exclusive. For an example of a character with opposite attributes, to what is being presented here, look at Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. He basically divides the world into two groups, Dumb (everyone but him) and Not Dumb (him). He is inconsiderate, and considers his needs above everyone else's, simply because they are not him.
Observing the world accurately, even in a metaphorical sense, to strikes me as a Wisdom attribute.
But Your Mileage May Vary, as a certain very addictive website says.

AstralFire
2009-10-16, 04:48 PM
Optimus Prime.

He blew himself up once rather than kill someone in a video game.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-16, 05:11 PM
Optimus Prime.

He blew himself up once rather than kill someone in a video game.

:smallsigh:

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but which version of Optimus Prime are we talking about here? :smallconfused:

Iku Rex
2009-10-16, 06:06 PM
I made a list a few years ago comparing Int with IQ. (Assuming that base Int the game world is decided randomly by 3d6.)

It looked like this:

IQ 50 or lower - Int 3
IQ 50-60 - Int 4
IQ 60-74 - Int 5
IQ 74-89 - Int 6-8
IQ 89-100 - Int 9-10
IQ 100-111 - Int 11-12
IQ 111-125 - Int 13-15
IQ 125-132 - Int 16
IQ 132-150 - Int 17
IQ 150 or higher - Int 18

Based on this Int 6 is not even mild mental retardation. There's a decent chance you went to school with someone with Int 6. He'd be bad at math and probably post in all lower case on message boards, but not "Hulk speak" stupid.

Flickerdart
2009-10-16, 06:10 PM
Based on this Int 6 is not even mild mental retardation. There's a decent chance you went to school with someone with Int 6. He'd be bad at math and probably post in all lower caps on message boards, but not "Hulk speak" stupid.
Lower caps? You mean LIKE THIS? That's not stupid, that's Death. :smalltongue:

Iku Rex
2009-10-16, 06:18 PM
Lower caps? You mean LIKE THIS? That's not stupid, that's Death. :smalltongue:Fine. Fixed. :smalltongue:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-16, 06:41 PM
I Thought You Ment Like This

EDIT: Edited to add the all-caps (GIANTITP changes it, apparently), and also to point out that "meant" wasn't misspelled on purpose. :P

Dixieboy
2009-10-16, 06:59 PM
Based on this Int 6 is not even mild mental retardation. There's a decent chance you went to school with someone with Int 6. He'd be bad at math and probably post in all lower case on message boards, but not "Hulk speak" stupid.I disagree, on the basis that a "smart" animal is int 3 if i remember correctly, he's halfway there.

ericgrau
2009-10-16, 07:00 PM
Attentive but dumb, hmm. You're aware of a great deal yet often unable to make sense of it. There are a lot of ways you could go with that. IMO pick one and stick to it.

Party member: "Ahh, a mummy. Why didn't you tell us?"
You: "Huh? I saw a guy so wounded he was wrapped from head to toe in bandages. Didn't seem like a threat. Dislocated jaw, lots of groaning, odd limp in his left leg, and dirt that must have been accumulated over ages. I thought the locked door was more important."

Animals only go up to int 2. Int 3 is still human intelligence. So please no "Grimlock smash". He's just dumb, that's it. We don't need any more annoying stereotypes.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-16, 07:09 PM
That's a bit far for a 6. "Humanlike intelligence" starts at 3. So yes, a 6 is low, but not animalistic. Granted, its on par with Trolls and Ogres, but its a bit up from signing with the chimps and grunting. :)

My mistake. But I didn't mean chimp-like. I sort of thought of it as a...well. You're really really stupid but really really good at knowing how to live. I mean that your ability to function in the world comes from honed instincts rather than any type of higher understanding.

theMycon
2009-10-16, 07:18 PM
There is, I believe, a 1 in 21.6 chance of 6 on 3d6- meaning he's in the bottom 5 percentile, or "the dumbest kid in an average class." This is far from non-functional dumb; it ain't even "Forrest Gump" dumb. This is roughly on par with "the guy who sits across from me at work" dumb.

A sixteen in wisdom is a bit further out of the ordinary- 1 in 36, or "all your friends accept you give remarkably sound, logical advice" level. Not sage wisdom, but probably better than most of us here can muster on short notice.

I'd say Calvin, from Calvin & Hobbes, is a great example of this- he's definitely not bright, but he's insightful and we can learn a hell of a lot from him.

I'd play it as "great and noticing and correlating facts, and often finds a very simple solution (direct or not), but shouldn't come up with complicated plans, as they'll come apart from his just not understanding what everyone is capable of."

Dixieboy
2009-10-16, 07:27 PM
Calvin is igh int low wis.

He knows a lot of things, he has his insightful moments, but overall he lacks common sense.

ocdscale
2009-10-16, 07:28 PM
I don't think matching the probability of rolling a certain attribute with percentile data in our world really works.

Rolling an 18 for intelligence is only 1:216 but is supposed to represent the pinnacle of human intelligence, right, not merely the top .5%?
Similarly for a 1 in intelligence, it's not as if 1 in 200 people are born with a crippling debilitating intelligence deficiency.

Iku Rex
2009-10-16, 07:51 PM
Rolling an 18 for intelligence is only 1:216 but is supposed to represent the pinnacle of human intelligence, right, not merely the top .5%?Why can't 18 be both the pinnacle of (starting) human intelligence in DnD and the top 0.5%? Not sure what your point is...

Similarly for a 1 in intelligence, it's not as if 1 in 200 people are born with a crippling debilitating intelligence deficiency.Int 3.

And yes, based on the table here (http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html), roughly 0.5% of the population have "most adults cannot cope outside of an institution" level intelligence.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-16, 08:02 PM
I disagree, on the basis that a "smart" animal is int 3 if i remember correctly, he's halfway there.

Intelligence isn't linear. It's based on d6 rolls, which are a bell curve. Int 9 is "halfway" to 18, for all that means.

IMO, the geniuses in society are those that rolled an 18... and then managed to crawl up to level 4 for a +1 bonus, and then got old for a +1/+2/+3 bonus.

boomwolf
2009-10-16, 08:16 PM
18 is the top for level 1 guy. a 16 years old.

As you CAN be level 20 commoner, 23 in an ability score IS possible.


Playing 6 INT and 16 WIS in my book is someone who, while fails to learn properly and get the hang of how to do things right, has a good perception of the "bigger picture"
He can't understand things, but he notices the facts well.

He never learns. he knows.
He can't explain how he knows, it just seems right.

Its the guy you give a math problem, and he gives you the answer, but has no clue on how to do it mathematically.

He can notice the smallest details, but cannot always understand them.
While he will be the first to notice the breeze from the wall, he might not realize a door must be there.
He sees the blood stain on the "paladin"'s cloths, and that he has no wounds, but he won't realize that the previous owner was likely killed by the "paladin" in front of him.

Aldizog
2009-10-16, 08:30 PM
There is, I believe, a 1 in 21.6 chance of 6 on 3d6- meaning he's in the bottom 5 percentile, or "the dumbest kid in an average class."
Second-dumbest. There's a 10 in 216 chance of a 6, but also a 9 in 216 chance of a 3, 4, or 5. So the 3-4-5 are roughly "bottom 5%" and the 6 is "second-lowest 5%."

If a moderately difficult puzzle is a DC 15 Int check (most people need a few tries to get it), you can still figure it out, it will just likely take you a bit longer. If you train hard at a skill, you can more than make up for your deficiencies in that area (+3 from Skill Focus outweighs the -2 from Int).

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-16, 09:12 PM
He knows and sees a lot that other character don't, he just often wouldn't realize the significance, as in the mummy example above.

He'd probably give good, but simple advice, probably equating it to something he'd be familiar with. "Right now you just need to plow the field. Once you're done with that, then you can worry about sowing," or "If you're doing all the steps right but still can't start a campfire, maybe the wood is wet." Stuff like that.

He's not monosyllabic, almost-word grunts stupid, but he's unlikely to know many big words. He might be the kind to think a lot- he's not terribly smart, but he knows it, so he works at understanding what's going on. On the other hand, he might decide that it wouldn't really do much good for him to understand what's going on because by the time he's caught up to the point when he began thinking, a whole lot of other stuff has happened, so he's always behind, at least when it comes to knowing what's going on. In that case, he might just take orders from someone he trusts without really understanding why he's doing it.

He might make dumb mistakes, but not more than once or twice. Ater the first or second time he screwed something up by saying the wrong thing, for example, he'd probably learn not to speak up unless he's asked or he's had time to think. He might take to saying "I don't know" often, even if he does, because he knows that he could say the wrong thing without realizing it. Pointing out that the dutchess has suspiciously large hands and a pronounced Adam's apple could have either positive or negative consequences, so he'd probably keep it to himself unless asked. Again, he could very well just try to follow the lead of someone he trusts without really knowing what's happening.

He'd sort of be like Sherlock Holmes, minus the ability to connect everything he sees. He could very well notice the footprint that's half "under" the wall, the splatter of ink on the floor, and the frayed rope threads nearby, he just wouldn't realize that they're all related to each other.

AstralFire
2009-10-17, 11:21 AM
:smallsigh:

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but which version of Optimus Prime are we talking about here? :smallconfused:

G1 Comics.

theMycon
2009-10-17, 11:22 AM
I've always seen intelligence as mental 'strength.'

Wisdom is like mental constitution.
This is the way I've always seen it (with CHA being a barely tolerable substitute for dex, if you roll "creativity" in with Charisma).
Or, INT represents processor speed, WIS mental RAM, and CHA represents the graphics card.
OR, a high-INT man has a "powerful" mind, and can push through a lots of facts fast. A high-WIS has a durable mind, and will remember lots of facts and correlate & re-apply as he discovers more. A high-CHA man will not need facts, and be able to convince everyone whatever answer he has is correct; until someone figures out what is actually right.

I mention this largely because no two people will consider mental attributes to cover the exact same way. You may translate my other comments with these in mind, re-applying as fits to you.


Second-dumbest. There's a 10 in 216 chance of a 6, but also a 9 in 216 chance of a 3, 4, or 5. So the 3-4-5 are roughly "bottom 5%" and the 6 is "second-lowest 5%."You are more correct than I was, but I believe "has 10:9 odds of being the dumbest person in the room" is a better interpretation of our theoretical 21.6 student room*. I chose that example mostly to give an easy-to-get calibration, to compare it to the majority of poster's "He's basically a dog, and couldn't be taught to read."

*Or, "there's a pretty good chance there's someone with a lower INT in the room, but he's a definite possibility."


Calvin is igh int low wis.

He knows a lot of things, he has his insightful moments, but overall he lacks common sense.
I respectfully disagree. He's often shown as showing less than anyone else in the room, about anything save dinosaurs (Bats aren't bugs, being unable to perform simple subtraction, believing a beanie will allow him to fly).

However, he reliably shows quite a bit of insight & a deep understanding of emotion & the way the world works ("What are you talking about? It's your fault!" "Yeah, I know that, but since my life's pretty much in shambles right now, couldn't you just take the blame to make me feel better?"; his many interactions with Moe; the philosophical discussions on the sled). I'll admit the fact that he "never learns" with the sled seems to give weight to the low-WIS argument, but he never gets seriously hurt and always has fun; I really wish I'd done more of it as a child and consider continued sled-action a good tradeoff for temporary pain. That'd be like saying "falling in love is a low-WIS action, you'll end up hurting yourself".

Are we rolling Hobbes into Calvin's mental stats or not?

Drakyn
2009-10-17, 11:34 AM
Given that Calvin is capable of showing an enormous lack of self-awareness ("Don't you hate it when people start complaining and just won't stop? It drives me nuts! You listen politely and wonder when they're going to stop, but they don't! They just stand there going on and on and won't stop griping about the same thing over and over!"), has an incredible vocabulary for his age, is incapable of performing basic addition and subtraction without being distracted into a space fantasy, and has produced sudden bursts of philosophy either vapid or deeply sincere, I'd say trying to quantify his personality traits into these two mental categories is a no-win situation.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-10-17, 12:09 PM
I've always disliked Int as a stat for being a genius all by itself. Someone like Issac Newton in D&D stats is better represented by good values in all three categories. Int provides calculation and follow through, being able to do math in your head for example. Wis provides insight and instinct, the basis of problem solving via picking the 'right' option to begin with. And Cha (as written and I grumble about this) is that creativity in thought that can lead you to new options, where you get our ground breakers from. Somebody with just a high Int might do well in a spelling bee or math class, but history or english not as much. In contrast someone with a high Wis might do better in a school setting, able to pick answers in multiple choice easily, able to get not just an answer but the one the teacher is looking for.

I'd be so bold as to say someone like Einstein might be ill served by stating him with an 18 Int, his most known work came from considering options other people never did. That's not Int, though he was hardly dumb. I'd give him higher Wis and Cha even, then a couple of social flaws.

Anyways though back on topic, low Int and high Wis is easily the Stoic. Doesn't talk much but is absolutely unshakable, while prone to saying just the right thing that helps everybody else 'get it' and all that. Or if you wanted to do things a bit less grim, look at someone like Gourry Gabriev from Slayers. Just discount his "who's that" questions as exposition hooks and you find a guy who's often not entirely sure as to whats going on but is rarely indecisive and is prone to picking up on things others don't, like Xellos' true identity IIRC.