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AtopTheMountain
2009-10-16, 09:03 PM
In almost every D&D setting, there is a steriotypical (did i spell that right?) Lawful Good god/goddess of Honor, Chivalry, etc. for example, Heironeous in the original 3.5. My question is this: In the 3.5 version of Forgotten Realms, what is/are the main deities that have this basic theme?

dragonfan6490
2009-10-16, 09:05 PM
Helm, IIRC would be the FR equivalent to Heironeous.

arguskos
2009-10-16, 09:06 PM
Tyr (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) is the LG god of justice. Torm (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Torm) is the LG god of paladins. Helm (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Helm) is the LN god of watchers and protectors.

Cedrass
2009-10-16, 09:08 PM
I think Torm is the guy you're looking for.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Torm

Set
2009-10-16, 09:40 PM
In almost every D&D setting, there is a steriotypical (did i spell that right?) Lawful Good god/goddess of Honor, Chivalry, etc. for example, Heironeous in the original 3.5. My question is this: In the 3.5 version of Forgotten Realms, what is/are the main deities that have this basic theme?

Torm is the most perfect fit.

Bane would most fit Hextor (or his son Xvim, perhaps even more so), although Torm and Bane don't have the same sibling relationship that Heironeous and Hextor share.

Tyr is a justice god, but would, in Greyhawk terms, be kind of like a synthesis of Heironeous and Rao, while Helm is right out, being non-good and not at all chivalrous, being perhaps a little more St. Cuthbert-y.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-16, 09:54 PM
Dude, the most important question of all has gone unanswered!


(did i spell that right?)

Since you asked, the proper spelling is "stereotypical" :).

hamishspence
2009-10-17, 10:01 AM
Tyr is a justice god, but would, in Greyhawk terms, be kind of like a synthesis of Heironeous and Rao, while Helm is right out, being non-good and not at all chivalrous, being perhaps a little more St. Cuthbert-y.

I saw Tyr as a little more "St Cuthbert-y" since (at least in the Dragon articles on St Cuthbert), he has very strong good tendencies, even if he is close to the borderline, and he is focussed very heavily on justice.

I think Pholtus might be closer to Helm- justice without mercy.

Helm is often described as "heartless": he is more LN without any Good tendencies, than St Cuthbert is.

So- Tyr and Torm are both fairly close to the "justice-loving paladin god" archetype, but Tyr is a bit more "Judge" and Torm a bit more "Adventuring Hero"

AslanCross
2009-10-17, 10:18 AM
I'd think the more correct term here would be archetypal rather than stereotypical, actually.

Torm is the closest to Heironeous in terms of valor in combat---he did sacrifice himself once to destroy Bane's avatar during the Time of Troubles.

On the other hand, Tyr also died fighting off a demonic invasion in the transition to 4E, but many people believe that never happened, along with his whole "Tyr Loves Tymora" arc.

Navigator
2009-10-17, 07:54 PM
As per Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings (pg. 9), Heironeous converts to Tyr or Helm.

bosssmiley
2009-10-18, 06:04 AM
Tyr (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) is the LG god of justice. Torm (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Torm) is the LG god of paladins. Helm (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Helm) is the LN god of watchers and protectors.

And not even their own worshippers can tell them apart. :smallwink:

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 06:47 AM
And not even their own worshippers can tell them apart. :smallwink:

Torm and Helm that is, mostly because both of their symbols is a gauntlet.

They are also all part of that "Holy trinity" thing they and ilmater (I believe) have going.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-18, 02:59 PM
Torm and Helm that is, mostly because both of their symbols is a gauntlet.

They are also all part of that "Holy trinity" thing they and ilmater (I believe) have going.

The holy trinity is actually Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater, with I think Helm or Lathander coming in every now and then giving aid.

My vote would have to go for Torm for being the closest to Heironeous, though.

hamishspence
2009-10-18, 03:59 PM
As per Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings (pg. 9), Heironeous converts to Tyr or Helm.

Incorrect:

The full list from page 9:
Boccob- Azuth, Mystra, Savras, Velsharoon
Corellon- no change
Ehlonna- Mielikki
Erythnul- Cyric, Garagos, Malar
Fhalrlangan- Selune, Shaundakul
Garl Glittergold- no change
Gruumsh- no change
Heironeous- Torm, Tyr
Hextor- Bane, Loviatar
Kord- Lathlander, Tempus, Uthgar
Moradin- no change
Nerull- Cyric, Malar, Talona
Obad-Hai- Silvanus
Olidammara- Oghma, Sune, Tymora
Pelor- Ilmater, Lathlander, Torm
St Cuthbert- Helm, Hoar, Tyr
Vecna- Shar, Velsharoon
Wee Jas- Azuth, Kelemvor
Yondalla- no change


Heironeous actually converts to Torm or Tyr, and since the only other option for Torm is Pelor (who far more closely fits Lathlander) Heironeous is the closest parallel.

Also- over a period, several Greyhawk deities have been released that fit some of the slightly iffy ones better.

Ilmatar- Phieran (BoED)
Sune- Lastai (BoED)
Loviatar- Scahrossar (BoVD)
Malar- Karaan (BoVD)

There are probably other examples of closer matches than the ones given in FRCS.

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:05 PM
The holy trinity is actually Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater, with I think Helm or Lathander coming in every now and then giving aid.

My vote would have to go for Torm for being the closest to Heironeous, though.

Helm is dead, torm took his place in the trinity.

AslanCross
2009-10-18, 11:07 PM
Helm is dead, torm took his place in the trinity.

Helm was never part of the Triad. The Triad was Tyr, Ilmater and Torm.
Tyr killed Helm, Ilmater left in disgust, and Tyr was eventually killed. Torm took Tyr's place.

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:09 PM
Gah, half right.

Helm still resided in the house of the triad though, so you can't blame me for the mistake. :smallwink:

AslanCross
2009-10-18, 11:14 PM
Indeed, I can't blame anyone for confusion regarding similar deities in FR. They have like what, three gods of war who exist at the same time?

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:25 PM
I count Magluybet, Tempus, Garagos and Ilneval as Deities with "War" in their portfolio. (Even though Ao is supposed to stop any duplicates)
Then there's the gods of conquest, defense, retaliation, tactics, crusades, bloodlust, warriors and so on.

Keld Denar
2009-10-18, 11:30 PM
Greyhawk actually has a few redundant dieties as well, if you start delving into the various races of humans (Oeridian, Suel, Baklunish, Flan, Touv, etc).

I mean, Pelor may be the main core sun diety, but there is also Annam, Atroa, Azor'alq, Ehlonna, Hiatea, Iallanis, Lydia, Nola, Pholtus, Phyton, Skerrit, Stronmaus, and Tezcatlipoca.

So yea...3 gods of war is nothing...

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:38 PM
Those are just the ones with the sun "domain".

There are 21 deities in Faerun with the war "domain".

AslanCross
2009-10-19, 03:18 AM
I count Magluybet, Tempus, Garagos and Ilneval as Deities with "War" in their portfolio. (Even though Ao is supposed to stop any duplicates)
Then there's the gods of conquest, defense, retaliation, tactics, crusades, bloodlust, warriors and so on.

Don't forget Red Knight, though she technically works for Tempus.

hamishspence
2009-10-19, 04:05 AM
I think the rule is- one Greater Deity of X, per pantheon, but you can have lesser deities of X, and you can have racial pantheons separate from the "main pantheon"

Raltar
2009-10-19, 04:13 AM
Helm was never part of the Triad. The Triad was Tyr, Ilmater and Torm.
Tyr killed Helm, Ilmater left in disgust, and Tyr was eventually killed. Torm took Tyr's place.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. All of those gods are still alive and well. There was no spell plague. Everything is as it should be.

Dixieboy
2009-10-19, 05:32 AM
I don't know what the hell you are talking about. All of those gods are still alive and well. There was no spell plague. Everything is as it should be.Helm died before that.

@AslanCross: I very much did not forget her, she is the goddess of tactics/strategy and has the war domain, however "war" is not in her portfolio.