Haley's mother contradiction thread

[npc revolution]

I just noticed that some things that have been said about haley's mother don't quite fit together:

1. she say's here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html that her mother left her, while it says here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html that her mother went to heaven when she was young

2. in some strip or other, haley got out a set of orbs that she said she received from her mother when she was 12, but again in strip 681 haley (looking less than 12 years old) says her mother went to heaven

I think these things can be taken to mean that hayley's mother didn't die, but rather plane-shifted to heaven or something. This lends credence to the whole "Hayley's part celestial" rumour, especially when taken with what rich put in the first compilation book:
something like "hayley is sabine's opposite in more ways than are obvious right now"

of course, this whole argument goes away if you imagine that this happened:
1. mrs. starshine dies
2. mrs. starshine is resurrected
3. she gives hayley the two orbs
4. she leaves hayley

anyway, what do you guys think?

[Forbiddenwar]

Death is often referred to leaving. Particularly if the death occured unexpectedly, while being young.

I find doubtful that a couple of thieves in Graysky city would have enough funds to pay for a resurrection.

Her mother didn't give her the gems. "they came from my mother's side", (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html)meaning Haley's mother had the gems from her parents, and when Haley was 12 (old enough not to break them) her father gave her the gems.

Nope, no contradiction here.

Rich's comment in DCF is explained in his commentary in WAXPs. Sabine acts on her feelings for Nale. Haley does not act on her feelings for Elan. Opposites.

[FabuVinny]

"Haley suffers from a number of neuroses, particularly an abandonment complex that likely began with her mother's death and progressed up through a number of relationships in her youth."
-War and XPs commentary

That's the official word on the matter. I don't think it's a contradiction, even though the two mentions in the online comic don't appear to match up on the surface.

It's also Haley's self-loathing who brings up her mother. A minor difference - and Haley is too drawn in to moping about past boyfriends to discuss details - but still a difference.

[David Argall]

Death is often referred to leaving. Particularly if the death occured unexpectedly, while being young.

I find doubtful that a couple of thieves in Graysky city would have enough funds to pay for a resurrection.

Her mother didn't give her the gems. "they came from my mother's side", (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html)meaning Haley's mother had the gems from her parents, and when Haley was 12 (old enough not to break them) her father gave her the gems.

Nope, no contradiction here.

No necessary contradiction. However in 123 Haley also says "...my mother gave me..." so we do have to do a little dancing if we want to avoid thinking our writer had not yet decided when ma bought it when he wrote 123.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Death is often referred to leaving. Particularly if the death occured unexpectedly, while being young.
And particularly by those with low self-esteem. Oh, and hey, what do ya know? That's exactly the case with that comment:


It's also Haley's self-loathing who brings up her mother. A minor difference - and Haley is too drawn in to moping about past boyfriends to discuss details - but still a difference.

--


No necessary contradiction. However in 123 Haley also says "...my mother gave me..." so we do have to do a little dancing if we want to avoid thinking our writer had not yet decided when ma bought it when he wrote 123.
I can't say most people would consider it dancing to say you inherited something from a parent just because someone other than that parent held the item for safekeeping.

In any case, the orbs appear to be a one-off joke. I don't think it's meant to be subject to this level of analysis. (Consider also that the double entendre would have a harder lead-in if she got them when she was six.)

[Xesirin]

No necessary contradiction. However in 123 Haley also says "...my mother gave me..." so we do have to do a little dancing if we want to avoid thinking our writer had not yet decided when ma bought it when he wrote 123.

I'm of the fairly strong opinion that if something from pre-200 contradicts anything from the rest of the comic, (Especially pre-120) it can be considered non-canon for purposes of comparison.

That said though, Haley's mother being celestial would clear up just about all of this without contradictions.

[Ron Miel]

speculation



Her mother left when Haley was young. Ian told her, falsely, that she had died. She only found out later that Ian had lied.

Bozzok's friends on the western continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)sent Ian a letter apparently from his wife asking him to come over there.

What really happened to Mia shall be revealed in the last book.It ios related to Haley's undisclosed secret.

[bluewind95]

I've been in that situation, where something of value is given me to me by someone else rather than the person who originally intended to give it to me when I reached a certain age because that person met an untimely end. I still consider it and speak of it as given to me by the person who died. I don't think that's a contradiction. Also, speaking of the one who died as "leaving" is common enough. It's some kind of.. half-denial, I guess, and a feeling of guilt, however irrational.

[Tijne]

.. Or maybe they tried to ressurect her mother and she refused...

[Shale]

Given Haley's relatives, she might have had to steal them back from the executor of her mother's will.

[Tijne]

... or maybe her mother willing killed herself...
or knowingly put herself in a very dangerous situation for some reason or another..

[Jackson]

How do we judge the age of a stick figure? She's the height of her father's shoulder, but is drawn in the manner of a 4 or 5 year old. Which cue to choose?

In any case, somebody with extremely low self-esteem counting somebody who died as somebody who 'left' is so ridiculously common, especially in fiction, that it's not a huge surprise it happened here. Oftentimes the person left behind will ask of the person who died why he or she 'left me,' even when the death is obviously something over which the dieing person had no control. It's really not an uncommon phrase to use.

I'm not sure whether or not a strip that exists solely to perpetrate a joke, the elements of which are never seen again, and written before the story kicked in in full, should be given the weight of later strips, given how this particular story is being written (i.e. serially, one page at a time). But if we do give it equal weight, it's still not much of a struggle to read it as not contradicting Haley's mother's death.

[AxeD]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html

Celia: "Haley - I'm an outsider! I can't be raised from the dead!!"

Aren't celestials outsiders? If so, that kinda blows the "resurrection of haley's mum" theory out of the water.

I pretty much agree with the above comment, that its pretty hard to judge how old a stick figure is. She could be 12+ years old and we wouldn't definitively know.

Personally, I think that Rich (that magnificent bastard) included that "gone to heaven" line to mess with readers' heads. It's stuff like that, that explains why I love this comic so much. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

In core, it requires Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection to bring back an Extraplanar Outsider.

Spell Compendium adds the Revive Outsider spell.

Native Outsiders can be brought back the usual way.

[David Argall]

I pretty much agree with the above comment, that its pretty hard to judge how old a stick figure is. She could be 12+ years old and we wouldn't definitively know.

We can tell she is way younger than 12. 12 year old girls would be horribly insulted by being called sweet little girls and would hate the idea of holding hands with dad like a child. They are adults [except when somebody suggests they act like one or do some work or...]. So Haley is more like 6 in the flashback.

[hamishspence]

Perhaps the more usual phrasing would be:

"In my opinion, based on experience, it is unlikely that a 12 year old would react the way Haley was doing, therefore it is more likely that she is somewhat younger"

[veti]

We can tell she is way younger than 12. 12 year old girls would be horribly insulted by being called sweet little girls and would hate the idea of holding hands with dad like a child. They are adults [except when somebody suggests they act like one or do some work or...]. So Haley is more like 6 in the flashback.

Unless she were roleplaying a younger child than she, in fact, is. Which might be plausible if her father were, say, a grifter. Or what used to be called "a thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)".

[Bibliomancer]

Unless she were roleplaying a younger child than she, in fact, is. Which might be plausible if her father were, say, a grifter. Or what used to be called "a thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)".

So...Haley disguised herself as a very tall 6 year old?

I prefer the idea that her mother gave them to her around age 3 (ie before the mother died) but Haley wasn't allowed to have them until age 12 to avoid breaking them.