the coinage problem

[deaincaelo]

I know I'm new here, but I've been playing D&D for a long time. With each edition i feel like they knock out one kink in the system and create two more. I'm trying to work everything out to something consistent and sane. I would appreciate feedback on all my post here.

Coinage:

coins are of a standard weight and purity. In a game running on the gold standard, hyperinflation and rampart dungeneering has destroyed the economy, and you might as well feel free to use your source book for weights and costs. However, this may not always play well. Nor does it make a great deal of sense. Rational coinage is the basis of a rational economy, and it will be discussed here.

The main property of coins concerning adventurers, beyond how much they have, is how much they weigh. Weight is a main way of reigning in character wealth. A silver standard coin should weight abut 1/100 lb, or twice the weight of a dime. A high wealth game with a strong monetary system might have especially pure coins of half the weight. A gold standard game, with rampant debasement, coins could easily be twice the weight or more. Additionally, coins from different sources eras and area will very widely in wieght and purity. This gives the DM leeway as needed.

For 3.5, coins were a base 10 (10 copper to a silver, etc.) and coins were 50 to a lb. This led to a problem where a decent mid level magical item could easily require 50 pounds of platinum to purchase. conversely, should the DM want to restrict loot by weighing it down in copper, a pc can still manage to haul a great deal of it. The same 200lb of coinage that the pc has to be ready to carry around anyway, in copper, is a good 10 plat. To fix this, you either need to add more levels of coinage, or modify the exchange rate. Therefore, the silver standard should be base 100 (100 copper to a silver, 100 silver to a gold, etc). Keeping all goods and items the same value in copper, This has the net effect of moving all items price (in gold) two decimal places to the left-it's equivalent in silver. This also conveniently makes all coinage on the loot tables the same, in silver, as it was in gold. Loot other then money is unaffected by this change, other then having resale value in silver, as it all has the same relative value.

Converting other systems and items:

sometimes items from different sources are a bit unbalanced when it comes to cost. There are probably better resources out there to do so. However, If this is the only resource at your disposal here's my suggestion: try to standardize wealth by level and power. If a silver is the standard of coin, then the +1 longsword at 10 g might be considered the standard of items. Its a good solid item for levels 1-3. Item cost should increase geometrically every for effective levels. So at lvl 4, a +2 weapon may be appropriate to an adventurer that has scrimped and saved up 40g and so on. especially powerful items, artifacts, and most items that vastly out level the PC should be impossible to buy but may be earned.

[Chrono22]

I concur. There are some other benefits too- GMs need not overload their campaigns with unreasonable amounts of currency just to abide by the WBL guidelines. And a pile of treasure will seem all the more valuable if items in the game don't cost upwards of a million gold...
Also, if WotC had followed a similar model for in-game costs, they could have marketed fake currency for use in module/game events...

[Jergmo]

Hrm. To solve the problem of a crapton of coinage everywhere, I just divided wealth and prices of armor/weapons/etc. by 6. *Shrug*

With this, with a single silver piece, you could buy like 50 chickens.

[deaincaelo]

yes, but that's still 100 copper.

[deuxhero]

I would use an Adamantine/Mithral/copper/iron standard in a world overrun with gold. The metals given have uses other than being shiny (helps them retain value)

[Doc Roc]

My players generally carried their wealth in diamond dust for a variety of reasons.

[arguskos]

I actually have increased the coinage standards well beyond gold and platinum at higher levels of currency.

My coinage runs thusly:
10 Copper = 1 Silver
10 Silver = 1 Gold
10 Gold = 1 Electrum
10 Electrum = 1 Platinum
10 Platinum = 1 Mithril
10 Mithril = 1 Adamantine
10 Adamantine = 1 Force Coin (a piece of force smushed between two slivers of iron)

As you can note, gold is hardly on the top of the scale. Most exchanges are held in gold or electrum, with some few largeish purchases being held in platinum or mithril. If someone breaks out a coin in adamantine or force, the purchase in extremely expensive.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

10 Silver = 1 Gold
10 Gold = 1 Electrum

I do something similar when it comes to extending the scale, but wouldn't electrum be between silver and gold, seeing as it's an alloy of the two (entirely aside from the fact that prior editions went copper-silver-electrum-gold-platinum)? :smallconfused:

[arguskos]

I do something similar when it comes to extending the scale, but wouldn't electrum be between silver and gold, seeing as it's an alloy of the two (entirely aside from the fact that prior editions went copper-silver-electrum-gold-platinum)? :smallconfused:
Electrum is naturally occurring, but in a smaller amount than gold and silver normally. Smithed electrum isn't as valuable, for the impurities that can be found in it. That value is for the naturally occurring stuff, not the artifically created stuff. :smallwink: Good catch.

[Chrono22]

Electrum is naturally occurring, but in a smaller amount than gold and silver normally. Smithed electrum isn't as valuable, for the impurities that can be found in it. That value is for the naturally occurring stuff, not the artifically created stuff. :smallwink: Good catch.
And how would someone go about telling the difference between an artificially made gold/silver coin and your typical naturally occurring electrum coin?

[arguskos]

And how would someone go about telling the difference between an artificially made gold/silver coin and your typical naturally occurring electrum coin?
What, you don't have moneychangers, who check for these sorts of things? :smallwink:

I've put a reasonable amount of thought into the currency system in my settings, and this makes a reasonable amount of sense to me. A fairly rare, naturally occurring alloy should be more valued than simple gold.

As for actually determining the difference, I don't have enough knowledge to determine how that works. I just don't know how that would work, but I'm willing to bet it can be done, and that in a pseudo medieval society, they'd know how to determine smithed alloys from the natural deal. If you have advice about such a thing, please, let me know, it'll help me understand such things better. :smallsmile:

[Bogardan_Mage]

What, you don't have moneychangers, who check for these sorts of things? :smallwink:

I've put a reasonable amount of thought into the currency system in my settings, and this makes a reasonable amount of sense to me. A fairly rare, naturally occurring alloy should be more valued than simple gold.

As for actually determining the difference, I don't have enough knowledge to determine how that works. I just don't know how that would work, but I'm willing to bet it can be done, and that in a pseudo medieval society, they'd know how to determine smithed alloys from the natural deal. If you have advice about such a thing, please, let me know, it'll help me understand such things better. :smallsmile:
Well, when magic exists there's a fairly obvious answer to any "how" question. There's also the Archimedes method, depending on why exactly natural electrum is so much more valuable than gold and silver mixed together. Which brings me to my question, why on earth should natural electrum be 20 times as valuable as artificial electrum when, rarely occuring in nature or not, it's still the same freaking alloy! If the value is derived from the precious metal content, which appears to be the case, there is no reason for any merchant to value a naturally occuring alloy above what is essentially the exact same stuff except mixed in a silversmith's shop rather than primordial earth.

[Mongoose87]

You could always simply convert to the gold standard. Each kingdom backs their bills with gold, people only actually carry paper money. Or, better yet, leave it in gold, but have adventurers ravage various nations' economies when they bring their dragon's horde of gold in for a shopping spree. As an economics major, I'd like to see more real-life economics in DnD.

[cheezewizz2000]

Electrum is naturally occurring, but in a smaller amount than gold and silver normally. Smithed electrum isn't as valuable, for the impurities that can be found in it. That value is for the naturally occurring stuff, not the artifically created stuff. :smallwink: Good catch.

Smithed electrum would be significantly less impure than the naturally occuring stuff. For a start the ratio of gold:silver in naturally occuring electrum would vary from deposit to deposit and also within a deposit itself. How hard the resultant alloy would be a very "quick and dirty" way of testing the value, with more gold rich electrum being softer. Also, with smithed electrum there would be less copper/palladium/platinum in it. Gold and silver are relatively easy to refine and so a mix of the two made in a smithy would be far less impure.

Trust me. I'm a Geologist :smallcool:

[Ashtagon]

The geologist knows of what he speaks :smallwink: Artificially-alloyed electrum will generally be purer than naturally-occurring electrum for the same reason that refined iron is purer than iron ore.

My normal approach...

Coins are generally 100 copper = 10 silver = 1 gold. A standard coin is 1/50 lb (very slightly lighter than a UK pound coin, which is 1/48 lb).

Above that value, large sums of money are either transported as "letters of credit" (a precursor to modern banknotes), 1-lb ingots of precious metal, or cut gemstones (which can be easily examined for size and quality).

Incidentally, platinum was first referred to by Europeans in 1557. At that time, it was noted that the metal could not be molten by any current technique. That wouldn't happen until 1784. It melts at 1768 C, much higher than gold (1068 C) or even iron (1538 C). Because of all this, I do not allow for platinum coins. The usual technology won't allow for platinum to be worked, except by magic, and I don't like the idea of magic being required for the basics.

----

For those who want to use real-world numbers to set relative values of metals, wikipedia to the rescue...

As of 5 June 2009, platinum was worth US$1263.00 per troy ounce. Gold is currently valued at 1,049.80 (hello recession :smallmad:); it was around 700 a year ago.

As of October 2008 silver is about 1/75th the price of gold by mass. Silver once traded at 1/6th to 1/12th the price of gold, prior to the Age of Discovery... In 1980 the silver price rose to an all-time high of US$49.45 per troy ounce. By December 2001 the price had dropped to US$4.15 per ounce, and in May 2006 it had risen back as high as US$15.21 per ounce. In March 2008 silver reached US$21.34 per ounce.

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/cu/cu.asp

Copper seems to hover around 2.8 USD/lb. Note that the prices in the above paragraphs are per troy ounce (1 lb = 14.5833333 troy ounces).

----

tl;dr price summary:

platinum: USD 1263 / troy oz (18,418.75 USD/lb)
gold (last year): 700 / troy oz (10,208 USD/lb)
silver: 17.31 / troy oz (252.44 USD/lb)
copper: 2.8 USD/lb

Relative values approximately 1 : 2 : 80 : 6400 (80 cp = 1 sp; 80 sp = 1 gp; 2 gp = 1 pp).

Copper isn't even in the same league. Not by a long shot.

[Ashtagon]

It just occurred to me that if you want to make relative values semi-realistic, you could replace all rulebook price tags to read "sp" instead of "gp", and use 100 copper = 1 silver and 100 silver = 1 gold.

[arguskos]

Eh. Fair enough. I'm stupid I guess. I'll strike electrum from my coinage list, and simply move on from there. Probably easier that way anyways, since my players never really care about the economy beyond "we buy stuff" and "we sell stuff". :smallsigh:

[lesser_minion]

As for actually determining the difference, I don't have enough knowledge to determine how that works. I just don't know how that would work, but I'm willing to bet it can be done, and that in a pseudo medieval society, they'd know how to determine smithed alloys from the natural deal. If you have advice about such a thing, please, let me know, it'll help me understand such things better. :smallsmile:

The simplest way to handle electrum being more valuable than gold in your campaign would be to assume that the chemical composition of it is still unknown. That way, the people making electrum into coins just see a rare material that isn't gold.

I'm pretty sure the ninja geologist is right, however - a lot of work goes into purifying things, even when they occur freely instead of being found in ores. If you're going to make electrum coins, you're probably going to want to remove some of the impurities first.

I'm not sure if I can think of anything that would make things extremely obvious - magical detection might be the only way to tell the difference between the coins.

Otherwise, chemical tests might be known for coins from electrum deposits mined in particular areas. Unfortunately, that would be based on specific impurities implying that the electrum came from a specific area, which, as the ninja geologists have pointed out, might be a problem.


It just occurred to me that if you want to make relative values semi-realistic, you could replace all rulebook price tags to read "sp" instead of "gp", and use 100 copper = 1 silver and 100 silver = 1 gold.

Erm... that was in the opening post.

[Chrono22]

Eh, wouldn't they figure it out the first time they put it through a crucible? The silver, gold and other impurities would separate. It's not a big leap to realize that if you break electrum down and get gold and silver, that it might be a combination of gold and silver. And there are ways to determine what a material is aside from magic or sophisticated science.
Also on the disparity of pure gold/silver/copper- countries don't make pure copper, silver, or gold coins. If they did, the coins would be too soft to survive the rigors of business and trade. A pure gold coin wouldn't have a discernible face, wouldn't stack well, and probably wouldn't retain its shape. So, other elements are mixed in to keep coins from tarnishing, losing shape and detail, and from breaking apart.
So, you can have a gold coin in one country, which has a lower gold content than a gold coin of a different country. Or a gold coin of a country that doesn't even exist anymore, which has an unknown % of gold in it. Moneylenders must make a killing in D&D...

[Ashtagon]

Erm... that was in the opening post.

oops.

Seemed like me and he came to the same conclusion by different routes.

[lesser_minion]

Eh, wouldn't they figure it out the first time they put it through a crucible? The silver, gold and other impurities would separate. It's not a big leap to realize that if you break electrum down and get gold and silver, that it might be a combination of gold and silver. And there are ways to determine what a material is aside from magic or sophisticated science.

That's true. It's evidently too early in the morning to expect me to be thinking.

A particular sample of electrum could have magical properties relating to its exact composition, although why it would then be minted into coins is a mystery.

That's about the only other reason I can really see for it being more valuable than gold.

[Haarkla]

I just reduced the weight of coins to 1/150th of a pound.

[deaincaelo]

it seems like a lot of people came to the same conclusion, and results, a variety of different ways. one of the reasons I like my method is because copper become a little more reasonable to carry around, in small amounts. I like the idea of people carrying around change in case they need a mug at the bar, for example.

I havent found a reasonable way to account for inflation as wealth is sequestrated and recovered from dungeons. I would say, as common as that is, most people know to wait out any spikes caused by adventurers.

re: Ashtagon- Metallurgy in D&D is much more advanced then the middle ages. They're able to forge constant quality steel wihtout folding, for example. Dwarves, low-level enhancements, and a variety of other common techniques would allow for platinum to be minted into coins. The blessings common for medieval peasants would actually affect thier work, making them better. or not, it is your campaign.

additionally, while coins might be called copper, silver, and gold they would really be stable in relation to each other alloys. I imagine a strong currency with no debasement might literally have coins alloyed with the other metals in proportion to maintain solvency. The price of gold during the gold standard was relatively stable.


So, you can have a gold coin in one country, which has a lower gold content than a gold coin of a different country. Or a gold coin of a country that doesn't even exist anymore, which has an unknown % of gold in it.

Right, this is how DM's can control loot from an encounter. Let's say the party kills the dragon sleeping on a pile of gold but can only carry 100 lbs of coinage apeice. they grab the big gold coins with a face they don't recognize. After hauling it back to town they find out that the long lost kingdom of whatever debased thier coinage right before it fell. Instead of 10,000g each they might have 1,000- or even less.

the electrum problem- in that specific campaign, natural eletrum contains traces of Mithril, Adamantine, or some other rare metals that cannot be minted normally into coins.

[Triaxx]

Dragonlance had an interesting solution with steel coins.

Personally I always use ingots instead of coins. Prices are weight of ingots, instead of value of coins. Instead of a 'register', the shopkeeper has a scale which he sets to the cost and then they add ingots until the scale balances out. Works well and stops a lot of robberies. Carrying out fifty gold coins or 500 silver isn't a challenge. Carrying 700 pounds of Gold and Silver Ingots requires some planning.

[Ashtagon]

the electrum problem- in that specific campaign, natural eletrum contains traces of Mithril, Adamantine, or some other rare metals that cannot be minted normally into coins.

Their metalworking techniques are advanced enough that they can forge platinum, and they apparently have the technology to make pure (or essentially pure for coinage purposes) mithril and adamantine coins, and yet they can't alloy in trace amounts of those two metals into a mix of gold and silver? At this point, I'd be happier believing electrum coins contain unobtainium. This just strains believability.

Between differences in how rare the various metals are between the real world and the campaign world, and differences in the purity of the coins actually minted, I'm quite happy to accept anything between a 10:1 and a 100:1 difference between gold and silver coin values.

Dragonlance's steel piece standard was just screwy. "What's that? The 50-lb suit of platemail costs 1000 steel pieces? Hmm, if I melt it down, I get enough metal to make (50x50) 2500 coins. Well, I'll take two dozen, thank you sir!"

Big value purchases historically tended to be by letters of credit, or by ownership rights on plots of land. Add in ingots of precious metal and gemstones, and I don't see any obvious gaps in the money system.

[Amadi]

Aluminium would also make sense as a coin between gold and platinum:

"Before the Hall-Héroult process was developed, aluminium was exceedingly difficult to extract from its various ores. This made pure aluminium more valuable than gold. Bars of aluminium were exhibited alongside the French crown jewels at the Exposition Universelle of 1855, and Napoleon III was said to have reserved a set of aluminium dinner plates for his most honoured guests."

[Lysander]

Here's something that might help. Coins were often impure - a "gold" coin might only have a small percentage of gold in it.

So an electrum coin with a known value (perhaps stamped with a royal seal and guaranteed with a certain amount of silver and gold) would be more valuable and have more gold and silver in it than either a "gold" or "silver" coin.

Pure gold coins don't make sense either. Gold is soft and a 24k gold coin would wear away quickly. Pure gold would probably be carried as ingots or bars.

For large transactions instead of metal people might carry letters of credit.

[lesser_minion]

Their metalworking techniques are advanced enough that they can forge platinum, and they apparently have the technology to make pure (or essentially pure for coinage purposes) mithril and adamantine coins, and yet they can't alloy in trace amounts of those two metals into a mix of gold and silver? At this point, I'd be happier believing electrum coins contain unobtainium. This just strains believability.


In my campaign at least, the only real difference between mithral and silver is in terms of the magical properties possessed by mithral

There is no reason under those circumstances for the amount of mithral involved to be trace, and at 10 pp = 1 mp, it could be a good justification for ep being more valuable than gold pieces, regardless of the ability of smiths to just make the stuff.

Adamantine is just iron. It's only remarkable in its supernatural hardness and sharpness, and some myth about it coming from meteorites.

I can't really see it being made into coins because it certainly isn't pretty enough.

The most famous Roman coins (sestertii, denarii and aurei) were the Roman form of copper, silver and gold pieces respectively.

I vaguely remember the relative values as being:

4 sestertii = 1 denarius 100 denarii = 12 aurei




But Wikipedia seems to think that it was more along the lines of 1 aureus = 100 sestertii, with the possibility of half gold pieces as well.

In all cases, the value of the coins was higher than their precious metal content.

[Copacetic]

I have found the real secret to trying to make the wealth system make sense is to mix things up. Don't hold all coins to the standard "gp". Make some bigger, some smaller, some more pure, some less pure. Have them based on different materials, hell make some up if you want to. Chunks of amber, hunting trophies, and live-stock make excellent choices for un-coin based society.

[Shpadoinkle]

If players need denominations larger than platinum pieces, I just use gems.

[Set]

I use copper, silver, gold, mithral (replacing platinum entirely) and then adamantine bits.

Beyond that, you can use that old Gygaxian standard 'trade bars' of various metals, weighing between one and five lbs. (A 1 lb. trade bar of mithral would be worth 200 mithral or 2000 gp. A 5 lb. trade bar of adamantine would be worth 1000 adamantine bits, or 100,000 gp.)

There's also gems, which all seem to have very specific values in the fantasy world, which I blame on the Gnomes, who have a very scientific measuring system for gems, jewels and semi-precious stones that they update and distribute through the land (as it's also been adopted by dwarven, human and halfling finesmiths and moneylenders, although the elves have been resistant...).

If I need a coin beyond adamantine bits, I can add orichalum, a ruddy magically-resonant fantasy metal that is never found naturally, but only in the ruins of a specific fallen civilization, where it is melted down and used as coinage. But that's never been an issue yet. Upping the value of coinage, or adding an intermediary coin, say, brass or cold iron, between copper and silver, could be an option.

Mithral coinage is preferred by elves and halflings. Adamantine bits by dwarves. Other races have their own quirks, and in gnomish run communities, coins include tin and iron, with 'larger-than-gold' purchases sometimes being handled with flasks of mercury of varying sizes, valued at 25 gp. / ounce.

Dwarven mints use coinage of brass, bronze, steel and electrum, all made at very specific alloy densities, because of their deep dislike of counterfeiting and 'coin-shaving.' In a dwarven community, you first visit the money-changer, who will give you the best deal you'd otherwise get, as local dwarven merchants will turn up their nose at pure metals, only accepting local alloys (not because they wouldn't happily take your gold under the table, but because the local guilds and counting-houses have a merciless protection racket going on that could get the dwarf run out of business if he is caught breaking guild rules!).

Elves don't have specific institutions of this sort, and are prone to wild exaggerations, depending on their mood. One elf might produce a finely-detailed elven silver coin and regale you with a tale of it's ancient provenance and the legendary craftsman who made it, attempting to convince you that it's an objet d'art worth a hundred gold pieces to a collector (despite having a pouch full of them), while another might have in place of a belt pouch a tiny quiver-looking satchel holding fine miniaturized arrows tipped and fletched with gems and precious metals, which he says are the coin of his realm, made by sprites. When dealing with elves in a financial transaction, caveat emptor applies, and haggling isn't just an option, it's expected, with the elf happily telling you of the items storied provenance (which may or may not be entirely fiction) and stories about the crafters life experiences (which also may or may not be made up on the spot) in an attempt to drive the price up.

Given the supernatural value of cold iron and silver, it might be an interesting fantasy world in which those two metals are more valuable than gold. Gold doesn't fight off demons or wound lycanthropes, nor is it used as a material component in magic circles of protection, after all!

[Bogardan_Mage]

Dragonlance had an interesting solution with steel coins.

Personally I always use ingots instead of coins. Prices are weight of ingots, instead of value of coins. Instead of a 'register', the shopkeeper has a scale which he sets to the cost and then they add ingots until the scale balances out. Works well and stops a lot of robberies. Carrying out fifty gold coins or 500 silver isn't a challenge. Carrying 700 pounds of Gold and Silver Ingots requires some planning.
Surely such a system would very quickly evolve into paper money? In fact, that's pretty much what happened in the real world. Why carry around 700 pounds of bullion when you can carry around a bank certificate redeemable for 700 pounds of bullion?

[Lysander]

Surely such a system would very quickly evolve into paper money? In fact, that's pretty much what happened in the real world. Why carry around 700 pounds of bullion when you can carry around a bank certificate redeemable for 700 pounds of bullion?

And eventually fiat paper money that's only valuable because the government says it is.

[Mongoose87]

And eventually fiat paper money that's only valuable because the government says it is.

Actually, it's only valuable because we listen when they say it is.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Actually, it's only valuable because we listen when they say it is.

...which works fine in D&D, because when high-level adventurers tend to become the government, you listen to them or else. :smallwink:

[Set]

Banker's notes in D&D have enchantment spells on them, so that you can't accept one without forking over it's noted value in coin, goods and / or services.

"What's that?"

"It's basically a Scroll of You Owe Me 1000 GP."

[Antariuk]

Interesting ideas in here, thanks for the enjoyable read!

I tweaked coinage in my game a while ago, but I'm not finished with it yet. As first step I used the already mentioned ratio of per-100 instead of per-10 between gold, silver and copper.

What I also want to try out is to introduce differtiation between commodity money, say face-value coins like gold, and fiat money which relies on a state, kingdom or whatever to have a value. Although this is a lot more complicated than standard D&D gameplay, I think it could be fun to watch the results within the current gameplay (if you think of such events as war or magical devastation).