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Flatulous
2009-10-17, 08:20 PM
I'm looking for ideas on how to keep a high con, low AC fighter alive.

In fact, let's assume he never tries to pump his AC. Doesn't even bother.

What measures would you take - within the standard wealth level limits- to stay alive at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level and 20th level?


This stems from my realization that at 10th level, my AC will probably be just good enough to prevent one out of 4 or 5 attacks from a typical BBEG (after spending about 40k in treasure) or I could just buy a cloak of displacement for 24k for basically the same effect. This led me to wonder how to approach making a fighter with a useless AC through several different powerlevels.

Anyway, all ideas are appreciated.

Kylarra
2009-10-17, 08:21 PM
Go for an ubercharger build with shocktrooper and live by the theory that dead things can't hit you.

Ernir
2009-10-17, 08:27 PM
Miss chances are the way to go for this. Assuming the primary plan of there being nothing alive close to you fails. :smalltongue:

How magically inclined is your fighter? Zero, or have you managed to squeeze in UMD ranks or a caster level somewhere?

Chrono22
2009-10-17, 08:34 PM
Get a magic item that casts greater mirror image on you x/day. At the least, it reduces the chance you'll be hit by an attack by 66%. It will be more effective (and cheaper) than having a high AC.
Get a magic item that casts blur on you x/day. Since you have concealment, you are no longer subject to sneak attack damage (or precision damage, for that matter).

Starbuck_II
2009-10-17, 08:37 PM
I'm looking for ideas on how to keep a high con, low AC fighter alive.

In fact, let's assume he never tries to pump his AC. Doesn't even bother.

What measures would you take - within the standard wealth level limits- to stay alive at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level and 20th level?


This stems from my realization that at 10th level, my AC will probably be just good enough to prevent one out of 4 or 5 attacks from a typical BBEG (after spending about 40k in treasure) or I could just buy a cloak of displacement for 24k for basically the same effect. This led me to wonder how to approach making a fighter with a useless AC through several different powerlevels.

Anyway, all ideas are appreciated.

Shroud of the Night gives +2 deflection AC and untargetable Displacement 5 rds, 1/day only 10K (uses Shirt slot).

If you are going to have low AC get Shock trooper so you can Power attack by lower AC (might as well) instead of hit penalty.
Wealth issues:
Now 5th level has 9K so can't afford miss chances that are potions or scrolls.

I suggest UMD (Use Magic Device) skill with scrolls of Displacement, G. Invisibility, etc. You have to buy the skill with cross skills, but you can do it.

Potions of Blur (300 gp) and Displacement (750 gp) are worth investments till then. You should use them when neccesary not on weak minions unless you can afford it.

If you go this route buy a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to Cha skills like UMD) for only 4500 when can afford it.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 08:37 PM
Most Fighters are fine without AC. The two principal ways about it:
- Kill opponents before they kill you.
- Stop opponents from reaching you.

For the first one, you want a charger. Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior]+Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer] is a great basis for insane damage. One level of Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian [Complete Champion] gets you Pounce meaning your damage output just shot through the roof. Use Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) with one or two Extra Rage [Complete Warrior]-feats and profit of the extra attack.

If you feel like it, add the Mounted-feats in Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge; with a Lance, your x3 multiplier on charges means very few things will survive. Add Valorous weapon [Unapproachable East] and yeah, things will die. Basically anything not either Epic or with sufficient defenses to make you just miss (pick up Pierce Magical Concealment [Complete Arcane] to penetrate most of those, btw) will be mincemeat. Reach weapon is good; Lance if doing mounted charge, otherwise something that is also solid defensively like Guisarme, Glaive or Spiked Chain. Principal requirements:
- Reach
- Two-handed


For the second one, you'll want Combat Reflexes. Then you focus on getting a huge threatened area (unfortunately feats increasing your reach are "EWW"; Book of Vile Darkness/Horror has Deformity: Tall, which increases your reach and Lords of Madness has Aberrant Reach which works likewise, but both turn you into a physical abomination; therefore I just suggest reach weapon + Enlarge Person), a way to stop opponents like Improved Trip or Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill), along with means to get as many things to cause AoOs as possible:
* Mage Slayer [Complete Arcane] makes Defensive Casting impossible.
* Thicket of Blades-stance [Tome of Battle; accessible with two feats] makes movement, even Tumbling and Spring Attack, without AoO impossible.
* Robilar's Gambit [Player's Handbook II] makes opponents provoke an AoO if they attack you; combined with the above charging, you will win the trade of blows.
* Karmic Strike [Complete Warrior] enables you to make an attack if opponent hits you; only problem is that it has bad feat requirements and only works if they hit (Robilar's Gambit works if they miss too).
* Defensive Sweep [Player's Handbook II] makes opponents provoke AoO if they don't move. Guess how many opponents can move in your threatened area?
* Overpowering Attack [Player's Handbook II ACF] makes you give up your iteratives for double damage on your primary attack and AoOs. Normally poor, but an AoO build might just find use for this.
* Deft Opportunist [Complete Adventurer] gives you +4 on AoOs. That has to be useful, right?
* Hold the Line [Whatever] gives you AoO whenever someone charges you. Useful, if somewhat redundant with Thicket of Blades. It gives you a second AoO vs. the same guy, but how much focus vs. a single thing do you really need?

Finally, some defenses against the most common problems with no AC:
* Elusive Target [Complete Warrior] allows you to negate Power Attack from a single opponent; given Power Attack is the easiest way to punish you for not having AC, this is nice.
* Close-Quarter Combat [Complete Warrior] gives you an AoO if someone tries to grapple you. Is nice. Though not all that good compared to the other feats listed thus far.


Remember that the best defense is still not letting anyone hit you in the first place. Get Cloak of Minor Displacement (20% miss chance), Ring of Blinking (50% miss chance and if you have Pierce Magical Concealment, it doesn't affect you) or some such along with good saves (Resolute [Complete Champion] ACF helps as does Steadfast Determination [Player's Handbook II] and a huge Con and you're set).

But yeah, offense is the best defense. Best of all, it enables you to protect the other party members too by dropping opponents fast/not letting them get past you. Really, this is one of the best ways to build a Fighter in 3.5.

Haven
2009-10-17, 08:37 PM
If ToB is allowed, take Martial Study and pick up Wall of Blades is a good start. (You could even dip Warblade, or even just play a Warblade, but I suppose that might be outside the parameters of the exercise)

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-18, 03:16 AM
Miss chances are the way to go for this. Assuming the primary plan of there being nothing alive close to you fails. :smalltongue:

How magically inclined is your fighter? Zero, or have you managed to squeeze in UMD ranks or a caster level somewhere?

This. Just this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XJustX) Miss chances are powerful. I would recommend getting a cloak of displacement of some form. Eventually, certain enemies will be able to bypass some miss chances, but, having something that acts as AC, but on a separate layer is very handy. It's also a why Schroedinger wizards win: AC 8, but with three different sets of miss chances, good luck.

taltamir
2009-10-18, 05:39 AM
1. reach
2. trip
2.5. disarm
3. tons of damage (dead things can't hit back)
4. DR

1 and 2 are fairly simple and can be combined... 3 and 4 less easily doable.

Although, I would simply not ignore AC... What exactly are you GAINING from dumping AC? I mean, you can certainly play it, heck someone here is playing a campaign where all players are commoners.
But to just arbitrarily choose to ignore some of your powers just means you are gonna be weaker than you would be otherwise. A fighter can raise his AC at the cost being only a few gold, no other sacrifice.

As an interesting character though, this is certainly interesting sounding...
I would get a large creature, not with a chain, but with some TWO HANDED reach weapon that can trip... guisarme / ransaur sized for a large creature... for extra lulz get enlarge person cast on you. Or you can be medium sized and get enlarge person... Or have a trip weapon with NO range increment and get enlarge person (Which gives you reach)...

Example... An enemy charges you... they enter your range, because you have reach, they provoke attack of opportunity... make a tripping AOO, they fall down, now you get to hit them at a bonus, and they provoke some more when getting up... make sure to retrip them :)

ex cathedra
2009-10-18, 05:55 AM
1. reach
2. trip
2.5. disarm
3. tons of damage (dead things can't hit back)
4. DR

1 and 2 are fairly simple and can be combined... 3 and 4 less easily doable.

Although, I would simply not ignore AC... What exactly are you GAINING from dumping AC? I mean, you can certainly play it, heck someone here is playing a campaign where all players are commoners.
But to just arbitrarily choose to ignore some of your powers just means you are gonna be weaker than you would be otherwise. A fighter can raise his AC at the cost being only a few gold, no other sacrifice.

As an interesting character though, this is certainly interesting sounding...
I would get a large creature, not with a chain, but with some TWO HANDED reach weapon that can trip... guisarme / ransaur sized for a large creature... for extra lulz get enlarge person cast on you. Or you can be medium sized and get enlarge person... Or have a trip weapon with NO range increment and get enlarge person (Which gives you reach)...

Example... An enemy charges you... they enter your range, because you have reach, they provoke attack of opportunity... make a tripping AOO, they fall down, now you get to hit them at a bonus, and they provoke some more when getting up... make sure to retrip them :)

Spiked Chains are two handed. AC, for most classes, is actually difficult to raise to decent levels, and Shock Trooper can easily negate all of the effort you put into increasing your AC. An AC of -5 and an AC of 30 are practically the same thing when your opponent as an AB of +28.

Disarming... just don't. It's very situational and generally you'd be better off removing their head from their body than their weapon from their hands.

The third? dealing tons of damage? Not simple?
Are you insane?

I mean, Power Attack. Honestly.

taltamir
2009-10-18, 06:04 AM
Spiked Chains are two handed. AC, for most classes, is actually difficult to raise to decent levels, and Shock Trooper can easily negate all of the effort you put into increasing your AC. An AC of -5 and an AC of 30 are practically the same thing when your opponent as an AB of +28.

Disarming... just don't. It's very situational and generally you'd be better off removing their head from their body than their weapon from their hands.

The third? dealing tons of damage? Not simple?
Are you insane?

I mean, Power Attack. Honestly.

bah, everyone uses a spiked chain...
An AC of -5 and an AC of 29 are the same when your opponent has an AB of +28... but most opponents do not, and a cheap (for your level) armor really really helps. I am of the school that the shield is a waste of your time because its better to kill enemies than to increase your AC. I am just saying that if you sacrifice AC (eg, no tower shield), get something for it (eg, two handed wielding massive damage to bonus). Don't just say "I am not wearing any armor just because)... at least pay 100gp for a +4 AC armor. you have nothing to lose but the 4 AC.

dealing damage is simple, dealing enough damage to insta gib enemies is not AS simple as picking a trip weapon. To do that you need power attack and:
1. good bonuses to your attack (so power attack hits)
2. two handed weapon (should be using one anyways)
3. some good builds, like shock tropper.

anyways, you are right about the disarm thing... and grease spell disarms better than a disarm attempt anyways. and makes it impossible to get the weapon back. But we are talking gimmicky characters anyways...
You can trip a monster, usually, you cannot disarm it (well, not without resorting to puns... but that will not work in game)

Ernir
2009-10-18, 07:06 AM
The thing is... we are talking about Shock Troopering Frenzied Berserkers here, right?

Let's say we are level 10. We Rage, Frenzy, and Shock Trooper to the max. Our base AC is now -6, assuming we are medium-sized. (Just narrowly more difficult to hit than the broad side of a barn, which has AC -8.)
Sure, we can get a breastplate, and we can put 12 in Dex, and we can put on an amulet of natural armor +1 and a ring of protection +1. It's cheap and easy, and barely any reason not to.

You know what?
A wizard of equal level and size, with Str 8, attacking in melee with a weapon with which he is not proficient - he is still going to hit us on a natural 2.
Now consider how hard it is going to be for CR10 monsters. Expect something in the range of +15 to +20 to hit. =/

Of course we could try much harder to get our AC up. But seriously, even if you can get it to the point where equal-CR monsters won't autohit, do you think it'd be worth the trouble? Wouldn't it be easier to just spend the resources on doing something else?

As soon as Shock Trooper enters the picture, AC just stops being a line of defense you can depend on...

Kumori
2009-10-18, 08:33 AM
This. Just this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XJustX) Miss chances are powerful. I would recommend getting a cloak of displacement of some form. Eventually, certain enemies will be able to bypass some miss chances, but, having something that acts as AC, but on a separate layer is very handy. It's also a why Schroedinger wizards win: AC 8, but with three different sets of miss chances, good luck.

I've never heard of a schroedinger wizard. Can you elaborate on the whole 3x miss chance thing?

Kilmrak
2009-10-18, 08:44 AM
just take imp. toughness every time you get a feat, if your human thats 19 feats at level 20. that means an extra 380 hp. that should help keep you alive.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-18, 08:48 AM
I've never heard of a schroedinger wizard. Can you elaborate on the whole 3x miss chance thing?
Schroedinger Wizard: Mostly derogatory term used to describe the Wizards that are proposed in online disputes on the power of Wizards vs. other classes. So called because the Wizard's spell selection tends to vary based on what challenge is posed to the wizard, and because the Wizard's spell selection adapts seemingly instantaneously to the challenge, regardless of whether or not the Wizard would reasonably know it's coming.

As to the three different sets of miss chances? You're looking at Displacement, Mirror Image, and Blinking, generally.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-18, 08:49 AM
I've never heard of a schroedinger wizard. Can you elaborate on the whole 3x miss chance thing?

Just as you don't know if his cat is alive or dead until you open the box the schroedinger wizard has an undefined spell selection until the encounter you're debating is fixed, it's an internet discussion problem with comparing classes and responses since so much of the wizards strength is tied up with how well he's prepared.

The three times miss chance comes from stacking different kinds of protective buffs that give different ways of reducing the likelyhood of your wizard getting hit. Say you've got a level 10 wizard with Dex 12 and no armour, he'll still be harder to hit than a fullplate fighter with a tower shield if he stacks enough of them onto himself.

Blink, Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, etc.... together they add up to better protection than blowing a huge stack of WBL on +AC items.

Flatulous
2009-10-18, 11:02 AM
This forum is great. Thanks for all the excellent points and quick responses.

Being a barbarian/fighter (NOT going into frenzied berserker, just sticking with fighter) who wants to charge often, I'm looking at -4 AC routinely anyway, which makes it even harder to plan for a useful AC. If I get enlarged it's even worse ...

And Ernir is right, I ran some of the numbers and at every level, I would have to blow nearly all my treasure on AC in order to get it so that on average a typical monster would miss me about 25% of the time, BEFORE the charging/raging/enlarging penalties to AC. After a raging charge, there's really no way they'll miss. Ever. I'd rather just get an item of Blur for WAY cheaper and they'll miss just about as often only I'll have lots of good items to help me kill them too.

The core SRD has formulas for making custom spell-based magic items and it looks like a 4/day mirror image item would be ~8k. That seems well worth it.

Flatulous
2009-10-18, 11:06 AM
Get a magic item that casts greater mirror image on you x/day. At the least, it reduces the chance you'll be hit by an attack by 66%. It will be more effective (and cheaper) than having a high AC.
Get a magic item that casts blur on you x/day. Since you have concealment, you are no longer subject to sneak attack damage (or precision damage, for that matter).

Hi Chrono, excellent tip about the sneak attack damage. Doesn't "precision damage" mean critical hits? and if so, I can't find any rules about being unable to score a critical against opponents with concealment. If it doesn't mean critical hits, what other types of damage are "precision damage"?

If I go this low AC route, avoiding criticals and the like will be important since they'll pretty much auto-confirm.

Flatulous
2009-10-18, 11:10 AM
1. reach
2. trip
2.5. disarm
3. tons of damage (dead things can't hit back)
4. DR



High DR would be great but it's awfully hard to get and costs even more than boosting AC. I think just getting more HP and healing would be a lot cheaper. But maybe that's wrong.

Other than adamantine armor, Armor Specialization feat, and the Stoneskin spell, I can't think of any good ways to boost DR to a meaningful level, and the cost of doing those is probably better spent on HP and healing.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-18, 11:27 AM
I think everyone has this down. I didn't read everything but let me elaborate as to why you should use spiked chain over any other reach weapon. Spiked chain can hit adjacent enemies, regular reach weapons can't.

Also, concealment never stacks. Displacement doesn't either. though they can stack with eachother and two 50% miss chances are better than a super high AC.

And Improved Toughness can only be taken once. As does any other feat that doesn't say it can be taken more than once.

My work here is done.:smalltongue:

Godskook
2009-10-18, 11:38 AM
Hi Chrono, excellent tip about the sneak attack damage. Doesn't "precision damage" mean critical hits? and if so, I can't find any rules about being unable to score a critical against opponents with concealment. If it doesn't mean critical hits, what other types of damage are "precision damage"?

Precision damage: Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-18, 11:44 AM
If by 'fighter' you mean 'martial warrior,' then might I suggest a psychic warrior? I regularly dump AC as soon as I get access to concealing amorpha, and don't bother with it much at all after I hit the greater version. (Heck, one of my flaws is invariably Vulnerable; a -1 to AC is nothing when they have to roll 4 or 5 different times just to hit me.)

Along with what's been suggested so far, there's also the blur armor enhancement (from Magic Item Compendium), and astral projection (which can be gotten as early as level 7 for wizards and psions, or level 10 by psychic warriors) via polymorph/metamorphosis and either the Metamorphic Transfer or Assume Supernatural Ability feat. Who cares if you get hit if you can just come back to life? There's also the clone spell and any number of ways to get cover (making an animated Tower Shield potentially worth it, though there are other ways).

There's always the Shape Soulmeld feat (from Magic of Incarnum), which can get you access to things like the fellmist cloak (for concealment against ranged attacks) and the soulmeld (apparition ribbon?) that makes you ethereal (easiest thing to do is to end your turn in mid-air via a jump, and you're rather difficult to hit without abjurations or force damage).

ericgrau
2009-10-18, 12:13 PM
Wand of greater mirror image is 21,000 gp. Other items mentioned so far are also in the high thousands. Cloak of minor displacement is 24,000 gp for only a 20% miss chance. AC easily gives 70% miss chance (more if you try hard) if you use a variety of cheap sources. That's much better bang-for-buck than most (all?) suggestions so far until around 15th level (and beyond 15 still more bang, usually). Miss chance is expensive.

Grab shock trooper, kill fast and hope for the best from there. If anything spend your money on damage and speed; i.e. go for broke on offense and give up on def. If you can persuade a friendly caster or otherwise grab cheap miss chances then fine, but don't waste money on expensive magic items for it. Greater invisibility is a superb option, for example.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 12:45 PM
Hi Chrono, excellent tip about the sneak attack damage. Doesn't "precision damage" mean critical hits? and if so, I can't find any rules about being unable to score a critical against opponents with concealment. If it doesn't mean critical hits, what other types of damage are "precision damage"?

If I go this low AC route, avoiding criticals and the like will be important since they'll pretty much auto-confirm.

Precision damage means damage like Sneak Attack, Skirmish and so on. This is the key phrase in SA:
"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. "

As for criticals, you'll want Greater Fortifications eventually.


DR is not worth it; it's even less so than AC. AC can be pimped out with the right builds to levels where it's worth it. DR, frankly, can't.

But honestly, the whole "Don't let them hit you"-thing? Yeah, that.

Requiem Star
2009-10-18, 12:54 PM
Roll a barbarian.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-18, 02:49 PM
I've never heard of a schroedinger wizard. Can you elaborate on the whole 3x miss chance thing?

Schroedinger wizard generally gets brought up during discussions that a wizard is better due to X being available. That, and people don't know what he actually has prepared until combat starts. This can be accomplished to some degree with Uncanny Forethought.

For the miss chances, you have (Greater) Mirror Image, Displacement, and (Improved) Blur or Invisibility. For fun and profit, I also like to add the Swiftblade to the mix so that, no matter what, someone will have a 50% to out and out miss me.

EDIT: Ninja'd twice. This is what I get for skimming.

Anyhow, as has been mentioned, netting yourself these tools will be a little expensive. The Invisibility boost can come from a caster willing to help you not get hit. Cloak of Displacement is pricey, so, yeah, unless you've got some War Weaver shenanigans going on with your caster, you'll probably be out of luck on that and Greater Mirror Image for a while.

Toliudar
2009-10-18, 02:59 PM
For survivability in melee in high levels, I'll also suggest the Starmantle Cloak from BoED. It's expensive at 132,000, but it gives you total immunity to non-magical sources, and an easy reflex save to reduce magical melee sources' damage by half. I've seen rulings both ways on whether this also applies to sneak damage, energy damage, etc that tags along for the ride with the sword swing.

bosssmiley
2009-10-18, 04:31 PM
Accept that a flouncy shirt fighter is a dead man above ~6-8th level, and plan accordingly. The system maths just does not allow fighters to eschew their intended class strengths (turtling in heavy armour), and turtling itself eventually becomes irrelevant as a strategy in the game as written.

Rogue is the flouncy shirt archetype in D&D, not fighter (or any of the "I'm an unarmoured fighter" joke classes, like Swashbuckler). Monk also flailed blindly in roughly the right direction, but ultimately failed as a class for lack of power, utility and flexibility.

Certain archetypes cannot play the game beyond certain levels. Green Arrow can only play in the same game as the Green Lantern if the DM is fudging.

@V: I'm saying that a fighter who chooses not to play to all his designed class strengths becomes irrelevant as a combat threat a few levels earlier than a fighter who does play to his class strengths. Both ultimately get to play bag-man for the casters; the flouncy shirt guy just gets to that point earlier.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 04:36 PM
Accept that a flouncy shirt fighter is a dead man above ~6-8th level, and plan accordingly. The system maths just does not allow fighters to eschew their intended class strengths (turtling in heavy armour), and turtling itself eventually becomes irrelevant as a strategy in the game as written.

Huh...? Are you saying a Fighter not focusing on AC is worse than a Fighter maxing out on AC?

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-18, 05:22 PM
AC is near-worthless at higher levels unless you pump it crazy-go-nuts. Since monsters gain HD, attack bonuses, and Str much faster than most fighters are capable of countering with AC, you're better off spending a minimum on AC and focusing on miss-chances instead.

Playing as a wild-shape ranger, totemist, a ToB class or a psychic warrior will let you cover that particular base (and lots of others) much more easily, since they're using class features to augment what a fighter would have to waste GP on (and they can use their GP to pump that even higher if they want).

sofawall
2009-10-18, 06:03 PM
Accept that a flouncy shirt fighter is a dead man above ~6-8th level, and plan accordingly. The system maths just does not allow fighters to eschew their intended class strengths (turtling in heavy armour), and turtling itself eventually becomes irrelevant as a strategy in the game as written.

Rogue is the flouncy shirt archetype in D&D, not fighter (or any of the "I'm an unarmoured fighter" joke classes, like Swashbuckler). Monk also flailed blindly in roughly the right direction, but ultimately failed as a class for lack of power, utility and flexibility.

Certain archetypes cannot play the game beyond certain levels. Green Arrow can only play in the same game as the Green Lantern if the DM is fudging.

@V: I'm saying that a fighter who chooses not to play to all his designed class strengths becomes irrelevant as a combat threat a few levels earlier than a fighter who does play to his class strengths. Both ultimately get to play bag-man for the casters; the flouncy shirt guy just gets to that point earlier.

Bosssmiley, meet Shock Trooper. And Wrathful Healing.

-22 AC when you charge. You would have, what, 9 full plate + 5 magic + 5 Deflection + 5 Natural + 4 dex + 10 base. 16 AC, and that's after spending ~170,000 gp, and before anything like Rage that you might have that would lower AC further. Seems to be not really worth it.

I think scrapping AC is a good choice, myself.


EDIT: Gleaming + Minor Cloak of Displacement + Ring of Blinking (miss chance mitigated with Riverine)= 0.8*0.8*0.5=0.32 chance to be hit, for a much reduced cost. Add in other sources, like smoke or fog or whatnot, maybe custom rings/use at will items of concealing amorpha or some such thing.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 07:17 PM
I'm looking for ideas on how to keep a high con, low AC fighter alive.

Full plate, shield, and high Con. Sounds like the best of all worlds. Not having a low AC was always my worry when playing wizards.

sofawall
2009-10-18, 07:21 PM
A shield? Seems silly, to me.

ex cathedra
2009-10-18, 07:24 PM
An animated shield, obviously. Now it's at least a slotless waste of wealth.
Fighters don't really.. get high AC. They just don't have the ability, unlike wizards, archivists, and any build with charisma-to-AC three or so times.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 07:25 PM
A shield? Seems silly, to me.

Hey, moving from a 2 to a 1 AC isn't bad... and a magical shield can move you farther.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 07:26 PM
Full plate, shield, and high Con. Sounds like the best of all worlds. Not having a low AC was always my worry when playing wizards.

So...you hamper your mobility & give up your damage output for...what? Just a Full-Plate and a Shield isn't going to cut it for AC around level 10 so you are back to investing half your WBL on it.

Why not, instead, just wear a Padded armor or Mw. Studded Leather or a Mithril Chainshirt or a Mithril Breastplate that doesn't get in the way? This way you don't at least give up anything for no gain and have an armor to enhance with important abilities like Greater Fortifications, Soulfire, Displacement, Greater Healing and so on.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 07:32 PM
So...you hamper your mobility & give up your damage output for...what? Just a Full-Plate and a Shield isn't going to cut it for AC around level 10 so you are back to investing half your WBL on it.

Bah, you only lose about 3 points of movement, and nothing if it's magical. A 2-handed sword only does 1 more point, on average, than a long sword (against medium creatures; it's got 4 points against large or better), and it's hella slow... even with Two-handed style specialization, it's a point slower for a given magical plus. AND it's 70 times more likely that a random magical sword will be a long sword. 70 times. That's too much to ignore.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 07:34 PM
Bah, you only lose about 3 points of movement, and nothing if it's magical. A 2-handed sword only does 1 more point, on average, than a long sword (against medium creatures; it's got 4 points against large or better), and it's hella slow... even with Two-handed style specialization, it's a point slower for a given magical plus.

You should label your posts with a warning. Though I personally actually like TWF there; the extra attack is pretty hard to come by with otherwise.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 07:36 PM
You should label your posts with a warning. Though I personally actually like TWF there; the extra attack is pretty hard to come by with otherwise.

Yeah, but you have to be a ranger or dump a bunch of slots into TWF to make use of two longswords. Sword and Board is good from the get-go, and allows you to go Mastery.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 07:50 PM
Yeah, but you have to be a ranger or dump a bunch of slots into TWF to make use of two longswords. Sword and Board is good from the get-go, and allows you to go Mastery.

Meh, damage over everything! But yeah, TWF obviously gets better only bit into the game.

nightwyrm
2009-10-18, 07:56 PM
Bah, you only lose about 3 points of movement, and nothing if it's magical. A 2-handed sword only does 1 more point, on average, than a long sword (against medium creatures; it's got 4 points against large or better), and it's hella slow... even with Two-handed style specialization, it's a point slower for a given magical plus. AND it's 70 times more likely that a random magical sword will be a long sword. 70 times. That's too much to ignore.

It's not about the weapon dice. Weapons dice becomes irreleveant at higher levels. It's all about the 2:1 damage you get from power attacking with a 2-handed weapon.

Splendor
2009-10-18, 07:57 PM
NonDetection Spell: Warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells...
See Invisibility is a divination spell

NonDetection ring made by 20th lv caster = DC 31 for See invisibility
3rd lv spell * 20th lv caster * 2,000 gp = 120,000gp

Greater Invisibility Ring
4th lv spell * 7th lv caster * 2,000 gp = 56,000

so for 176,000 gp you're invisible and most people cannot see you with see invisible.

Note: See invisible items in the DMG are created with the lowest caster lv (5th) so they don't even have a chance of seeing you.

sofawall
2009-10-18, 07:57 PM
Hey, moving from a 2 to a 1 AC isn't bad... and a magical shield can move you farther.

So, are we talking the same system? The OP is using terms that most people here associate with D&D. Therefore, I suspect it's D&D. The OP is talking about a Low AC being bad, not good. This says it isn't an edition earlier than 3rd. Cloak of Displacement is different in 4e (it has a bonus for one, i.e. Cloak of Displacement +3), so I suspect it isn't 4e.

Therefore, it seems to be either 3.0 or 3.5, and I don't think in either of those editions you can go from 2 AC to 1 AC by adding a shield, and call it "not bad".

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 07:57 PM
It's not about the weapon dice. Weapons dice becomes irreleveant at higher levels. It's all about the 2:1 damage you get from power attacking with a 2-handed weapon.

Yeah, you missed a few things in my post. Power attacking doesn't really come into what I wrote.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 07:58 PM
That's why I told you to put a warning there.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-18, 08:00 PM
That's why I told you to put a warning there.

There's one in every post, actually.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 08:02 PM
You mean in every signature; IMHO signature is not a part of a post, but an addition. Then again, given nobody ever reads signatures, I don't know why we even bother having them (I tried looking your first 3 rows for it and found nothing; I had no way of knowing you hid it in the last line).

sofawall
2009-10-18, 08:02 PM
There's one in every post, actually.

There are thing he is talking about that do not exist in AD&D. Therefore, there is no reason for AD&D advice to be given. Therefore, it was assumed to be not given.

My above post says the edition was, in fact, specified, just not directly.

nightwyrm
2009-10-18, 08:08 PM
There's one in every post, actually.

People read other people's signatures?

ericgrau
2009-10-18, 08:14 PM
In spite of myths, AC scales exactly with level, using the same portion of your wealth at all levels. The myth comes from poor AC optimization. All you need to do is mix multiple cheap items, rather than 1 expensive one. I've figured it out down to the gp before.

But the point of my previous post was that concealment items are not even close to worth the gp cost involved. Just get a friendly caster to buff you instead of using items, forget about defense entirely (AC, miss chance, or otherwise) and pump offense, and/or maybe there's some obscure splatbook protection item. But items like the cloak of minor displacement are lousy.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-18, 08:26 PM
as early as first level, you can use Martial Study and Martial Stance to pick up any shadow hand maneuver you qualify for and then take Child of Shadow as the stance. as long as you keep moving you have a miss chance.

It's a nice and quick way to go about things when there's no way you'd be able to afford a like powered item.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-18, 08:36 PM
In spite of myths, AC scales exactly with level, using the same portion of your wealth at all levels. The myth comes from poor AC optimization. All you need to do is mix multiple cheap items, rather than 1 expensive one. I've figured it out down to the gp before.


Perhaps you would care to show us then? I've seen you say this exact same thing before but I've never actually seen the calculations for it.

ericgrau
2009-10-18, 08:46 PM
It's out there somewhere I think. Do a search and do the work yourself. I don't post long 20 level calculations every time there's a twice daily AC thread. Heck, posting it more than once (or even at every single level) isn't a highly productive use of my time. Simply mix armor, shield (optional), ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose prism ioun stone. Get cheapest +1 at each level. For example boosting armor from +2 to +3 is 5k, while amulet of natural armor from +1 to +2 is 6k. Better to up the armor first. All those add up to 21 AC over 20 levels, not counting misc boosts like mithral, stats, certain spells, feats, etc. Compare cost to wealth by level. Viola, there's your answer. Give it a try at a few levels and see for yourself.

I do happen to have a PM on hand with an example:



You have posted repeatedly that AC is fairly easy to boost. I generally don't see it, but since I'm bulding a Swift Hunter using Travel Devotion to move+Full Attack, I decided to try for AC so I might survive despite the moderate HD. I'm running into a wall and need help. Light Armor is my max allowed(Skirmish), and with a +5 Dex, Light Armor is fine normally due to a Mithral Chain Shirt(new items might be hard to find later, so I'd prefer to have something I can grow into), but after spending nearly all my money(starts with 15,000, +2 Dex item, +1 Mithral Chain, Amulet of NA, Ring of Protection, Skirmish), I'm still only hitting AC 23. A Buckler could maybe boost that 2 points higher, but at the cost of -1 AB and another grand. How do you say AC can be made viable at this point?

What level are you? 15,000 is appropriate wealth for a 5th or 6th level character. A difficult fight for a party of 4 level 6 characters might be CR 8 which means 1 CR 8 monster or 4 CR 4 monsters or etc. I did a search on CR 5 monsters and here are the attack bonuses from the first 10: 9,9,9,13,8,12,11,8,9,13. The average is about 10, which means you already have a 60% miss chance (miss on roll of 12 or lower). The above items you have listed add up to 10k, or a little over 11k with the buckler. Adding the +1 buckler gives you a 70% miss chance. Which means you get hit 30% of the time instead of 40%, which is significant. If you're fighting one handed, there's no penalty to AB. It's only when you go TWF that you get a -1 AB and only to the hand holding the buckler. If you're not proficient with bucklers you get -1 AB from the armor check penalty, but you can get around that with a masterwork buckler since it has no armor check penalty.

Fighting defensively with at least 5 ranks in tumble gives you a +3 AC but a -4 AB. That drops your chance of getting hit from 30% to 15%. That really helps if you're in trouble, but obviously you won't hit much either. It's better used against things with low AC so you can still hit and/or not enough AB to overcome your AC. You might want to single attack then tumble away or total defense for +6 AC (again, if you have 5 ranks in tumble) then tumble away.

For the future you simply get whichever AC upgrade is cheaper. For example +2 armor/buckler costs 3k more (1k => 4k), while a +2 ring of protection is 6k more (2k => 8k). So you get +2 next. And +3 for that matter, since +2 to +3 only costs 5k (4k => 9k). Next comes a dusty rose prism ioun stone for 5k, then finally the +2 ring. In character you need to find a magic item crafter to do the upgrade, and it takes 1 day per 1000gp of cost. You pay the difference between the original item and the upgraded version.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-18, 11:47 PM
Mirror image: Strength - Very high miss chance.
Weakness - Nonvisual sight or True seeing negates.

Invisibility: Same as above, except available in a ring.

Superior invisibility: Same as above, except most nonvisual sight won't work.

Blink: Good Miss chance (20-50%), available in a ring.
Need: See invisibility and ghost touch to bypass.

Blink is probably the mainstay.

Either ubercharge or super-stasis lockdowns. Stand Still/Trip/Reach builds, mage slayer if you can get it.

This will let you AoO any caster, limiting effective actions. Stand Still will let you limit melee. With good enough reach, you can hold down a battlefield, provided there aren't more than a few enemies.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-19, 11:36 AM
There are thing he is talking about that do not exist in AD&D. Therefore, there is no reason for AD&D advice to be given. Therefore, it was assumed to be not given.

My above post says the edition was, in fact, specified, just not directly.

I don't see a thing that can't refer to another edition in the OP.

sofawall
2009-10-19, 12:51 PM
{Scrubbed}

Fluffles
2009-10-19, 01:31 PM
Wand of greater mirror image is 21,000 gp. Other items mentioned so far are also in the high thousands. Cloak of minor displacement is 24,000 gp for only a 20% miss chance. AC easily gives 70% miss chance (more if you try hard) if you use a variety of cheap sources. That's much better bang-for-buck than most (all?) suggestions so far until around 15th level (and beyond 15 still more bang, usually). Miss chance is expensive.


What level do you play till? 8? A high Miss Chance will beat AC 90% of the time above level 10.

Fire Giant has a +20 to hit, 11 headed Hydras have a +16 to hit, and a Legendary Tiger has a +29 to hit.

Now lets look at our level 10 fighter.

10 Base + 10 (+2 Full Plate) +3 (+1 Shield) +2 (Ring of Deflection) = 25 AC. The giant will hit you 25% of the time, the hydra will about 60% of the time, the tiger will hit 95% of the time.

The Giant gets 3 attacks per round, the gets 11 attacks, and the tiger gets 2+rake.

AC or Miss chance? Take your pic.

Not to mention that miss chances can still block a nat 20.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-19, 01:57 PM
I don't see a thing that can't refer to another edition in the OP.

AD&D, i.e. 2E and its ilk, has lower AC as better. D&D, i.e. 3.5, has low AC as bad. If a fighter that doesn't try to pump his AC has low AC, that's 3.5.

But you did have the warning there, to be fair.

Paulus
2009-10-19, 02:09 PM
I have heavily considered making a fighter with maximum (read: insane) Dexterity and Intelligence. Dexterity is a less used combat stat, yet is perfect for most fighting types who 'racial' will never be as big and strong as most of the things they face. Being able to dodge and damage on one stat is a pretty big advantage, but I have yet to fully find a good way to use this for a fighter.

I'm testing the theory on my Factotum right now, but I would love to see it in practice for a fighter. Melee just seems to have the short end of the stick honestly.

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but you can always dip Swashbuckler for free Weapon Finesse. Two more levels and you get Str, Int, and Dex to dmg. Not too shabby depending on where you are going. Food for thought.

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 02:11 PM
I don't see a thing that can't refer to another edition in the OP.Context is important though, and contextually unless you're deliberately misinterpreting things, it's pretty obviously not AD&D.

Telonius
2009-10-19, 02:26 PM
All right, so we're throwing all armor out the window? Bump your saves as high as you can get them, and get immune to as much as you can.

Be a Warforged. Gives you plenty of immunities to start with, as well as fortification. Take two levels of Monk. Get either Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk. After level 2, run away from that class as fast as your feet can take you. You lose one point of BAB and a couple HP, but gain good saves and Evasion. Then, EWP Courtblade and one level of Swashbuckler for Int to damage on Finesse weapons. Then, three levels of Paladin for Divine Grace and immunity to fear.

After that, you have 14 levels to play around with. Maybe take a few Paladin levels to milk the class for all it's worth. Take a few of Fighter, maybe a few of Knight for the d12.

Deepblue706
2009-10-19, 02:52 PM
What level do you play till? 8? A high Miss Chance will beat AC 90% of the time above level 10.

Fire Giant has a +20 to hit, 11 headed Hydras have a +16 to hit, and a Legendary Tiger has a +29 to hit.

Now lets look at our level 10 fighter.

10 Base + 10 (+2 Full Plate) +3 (+1 Shield) +2 (Ring of Deflection) = 25 AC. The giant will hit you 25% of the time, the hydra will about 60% of the time, the tiger will hit 95% of the time.

The Giant gets 3 attacks per round, the gets 11 attacks, and the tiger gets 2+rake.

AC or Miss chance? Take your pic.

Not to mention that miss chances can still block a nat 20.

Miss chances are great and all, but why are you assuming that a Fighter would only have those things available for an encounter 4 levels above the suggested CR (assuming he's alone in those fights)? That kind of battle ought to only be taking place once out of every ten encounters, so I think it's safe to assume the Fighter can blow some money on potions to get the miss chances for the fights where he really needs it, while retaining good AC and also being able to budget other useful items.

I would also suggest that instead of a +2 deflection item, that fighter ought sooner get a +1 deflection, +1 natural armor and +1 sacred/insight bonus to AC. Those three items amount to 6,500, while the +2 item costs 8,000.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-19, 03:51 PM
Miss chances are great and all, but why are you assuming that a Fighter would only have those things available for an encounter 4 levels above the suggested CR (assuming he's alone in those fights)? That kind of battle ought to only be taking place once out of every ten encounters, so I think it's safe to assume the Fighter can blow some money on potions to get the miss chances for the fights where he really needs it, while retaining good AC and also being able to budget other useful items.

I would also suggest that instead of a +2 deflection item, that fighter ought sooner get a +1 deflection, +1 natural armor and +1 sacred/insight bonus to AC. Those three items amount to 6,500, while the +2 item costs 8,000.

Yes, but for 2000 more (10K) he can get 1/day untargetable Displacement (Shroud of the Night, did I mention since it isn't targetable you are effectively invisible).
+2 Deflection and 1/day Displacement is a steal for 10K.

Fluffles
2009-10-19, 04:27 PM
Miss chances are great and all, but why are you assuming that a Fighter would only have those things available for an encounter 4 levels above the suggested CR (assuming he's alone in those fights)? That kind of battle ought to only be taking place once out of every ten encounters, so I think it's safe to assume the Fighter can blow some money on potions to get the miss chances for the fights where he really needs it, while retaining good AC and also being able to budget other useful items.

I would also suggest that instead of a +2 deflection item, that fighter ought sooner get a +1 deflection, +1 natural armor and +1 sacred/insight bonus to AC. Those three items amount to 6,500, while the +2 item costs 8,000.

I'm assuming a party.

And this whole argument is leaving out touch attacks. (Which is what I do with my Warblades, Emerald Razor + PA max = pain. Lots of pain)

And a lot of spells don't need an attack roll, but the miss chance will still apply.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-19, 06:01 PM
Avoidance is the key. Start by staying out of melee, which means you'll be an archer. Then you mostly need to worry about avoiding ranged attacks yourself. A Ring of Evasion and a decent Reflex save will do well against ranged spells like Fireball. The usual things like Ring of Blinking will work to give you a miss chance, but also consider taking Deflect Arrows. You can reduce the feat cost with Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerūn) to grant Improved Unarmed Strike because they're inexpensive. Gloves of Arrow Snatching (DMG) will do the job with no feats, but only 2x/day.

Deepblue706
2009-10-19, 07:18 PM
Yes, but for 2000 more (10K) he can get 1/day untargetable Displacement (Shroud of the Night, did I mention since it isn't targetable you are effectively invisible).
+2 Deflection and 1/day Displacement is a steal for 10K.

Not bad. What's the source on that?


I'm assuming a party.

And this whole argument is leaving out touch attacks. (Which is what I do with my Warblades, Emerald Razor + PA max = pain. Lots of pain)

And a lot of spells don't need an attack roll, but the miss chance will still apply.

Yes, Miss Chances are really good for those two uses. I was just trying to determine if budgeting this kind of equipment was absolutely necessary at this level. After all, if it's one huge brute that is likely to ignore your AC, they're also alone and can probably be defeated on a tactical level since you'll have the advantage of teammates, where ensuring everyone can participate in the battle would seem to me to be more-often more important than having superior defenses (for instance, I might sooner buy Boots of Speed than the above Shroud of the Night + Some Potions (or whatever), if I had 12k to spend).

Did anyone mention a way to avoid Touch Attacks on a Feat-based approach, apart from Shield Ward?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-19, 07:27 PM
Shroud of Night, from Tome of Magic. +2 deflection to AC and 1/day Dancing Shadows. Still lets them know where you are, IIRC, based on the random single square filled with lots of shadows. Just stops targeted spells and gives that nifty 50% concealment.

Flatulous
2009-10-28, 01:36 PM
A couple things I've found which seem pretty good for a fighter with low AC.

From the magic item compendium:

1. ironward crystal - gives dr 1, 3, or 5, with a cap of 10,30, or 50 hp per day prevented, and it's quite cheap.

2. crystal of lifedrinking - gain 1, 3 or 5 HP which each hit on a living creature, up to 10,30 or 50 HP per day. Again, pretty cheap.