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Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 09:11 PM
Ok, I'm about to join an aquatic campaign, but I can't really pick what I want as my animal companion for a druid (I was thinking about Polar Bear.) Plus, I'd like to get a ship; everybody gets Leadership as a bonus feat, but all you start with at base is a crappy one person boat (1/3rd the statistics of a keelboat. >_<)

Here is what I have to work with:


Level 7.
Leadership (for crew members) or getting a swim speed and water breathing as a bonus feat.
Natural Bond can let me get an animal companion that has a -level at higher powers (so I can get a crocodile with no level adjustment, for example.)
150 K total, although I'd like to spend at least some on personal items. I'd probably like a lot of it to be based on the ship, though, especially if I could use the ship to keep myself safe.
And, if it matters, my rolled stats were 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 14. I was kind of lucky...


I'm completely unfamiliar with Stormwrack, and while I have the book, I've never played it, so I'm going to have more trouble with the ship thing than with the animal companion thing; I'm probably just going to go with a Polar Bear, since it seems exceptionally good, unless there is a good and more purely aquatic companion I can take.

sofawall
2009-10-17, 09:15 PM
StrongholdBuilder'sGuide.
Well, I like Sea Tigers, just because, for whatever, my book likes turning to that page.

Kylarra
2009-10-17, 09:16 PM
Elasmosaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#elasmosaurus) could be your boat.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 09:18 PM
Riding a giant dinosaur as my boat? That sounds... really awesome, actually. Then again, I'm not sure if the DM would allow it. It also might not fit that many people. :P If I did take it, what feats would you recommend it have? Improved Natural Attack? Swim By Attack?

Godskook
2009-10-17, 09:23 PM
Just require your followers be swimmers of some sort.

DFAs get a first level invocation that's relevant. And then there's races with swim speeds. I'm sure there's multiple other ways of getting it.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 09:24 PM
True, but I wouldn't have all the nifty ship items; I couldn't have cannons attached to my dinosaur... or could I?

*Thinks about that Dinowaurs game I saw on Kongregate*

Wow. That would be pretty awesome.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 09:26 PM
Why bother with a ship? You're a level 7 Druid, you can swim 21 hours (and spend the remaining 3 hours on a surface; next level you can cover all 24 hours).

Anyways, purely combat-wise, Squids and Octopuses are the most frightening things in the ocean. Squid is available on level 1. So yeah, if you don't find Tentacle Monsters icky, Squid is a friggin' awesome option.

Other than that, Sharks, Dinosaurs and company are servicable. Polar Bear is a very respectable option, but it needs magical assistance if you ever need to go underwater given it breathes air (which will probably happen a lot), meaning it's at a huge disadvantage in aquatic combat. It's also slow as far as aquatic creatures go.

It has the advantage of being completely amphibious though, being able to follow you to ground without shapechanging magic (which might be hugely disorienting for animals).


True, but I wouldn't have all the nifty ship items; I couldn't have cannons attached to my dinosaur... or could I?

*Thinks about that Dinowaurs game I saw on Kongregate*

Wow. That would be pretty awesome.

Next you'll be telling us you want it to shoot lasers out of its eyes (http://media.photobucket.com/image/mordor-vi/necesitouno/GIFs/mordor-vi.gif). Cannons are nice and all, but Squid (or big enough You as a squid) can easily crush ships; again, not being able to go underwater is a huge disadvantage at the sea. It's like not being able to fly in normal campaigns. Hell, just about and aquatic creature could destroy ships quite easily by attacking from below.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 09:27 PM
Well, I want a ship because it would be pretty awesome... plus, leadership as a free bonus feat would go to waste if I was just swimming. Also, there would be other players in the campaign, and we can pool our money on a ship, and while everybody could ride my giant dinoship, I'm not sure if they would like it.

EDIT: Also, a regular squid has one attack that does almost no damage, and another attack that has a low attack bonus and can grapple. Seems... meh.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 09:32 PM
Well, I want a ship because it would be pretty awesome... plus, leadership as a free bonus feat would go to waste if I was just swimming. Also, there would be other players in the campaign, and we can pool our money on a ship, and while everybody could ride my giant dinoship, I'm not sure if they would like it.

Surely you could just get a bunch of Merfolk followers through the Leadership? Either way, if you want the ship, I think you'd still want an aquatic companion if only because one is incredibly useful for protecting ships and spotting in water. Hell, I can't imagine you not wanting to spend a good deal of time off-board yourself.

But yeah, ships are cool. Get a submarine if you can. If not, just get as big a thing as you can and reinforce the bottom as possible; D&D surface isn't quite as safe as real world surface ('cause unlike in real world, hugely intelligent aquatic beasts exist and they aren't afraid to sink ships or hit from below).



EDIT: Also, a regular squid has one attack that does almost no damage, and another attack that has a low attack bonus and can grapple. Seems... meh.

Hm, true. I totally overlooked that the arms are rolled into one attack. It's still an insane grappler (thanks to the +4 racial bonus), but not as good as I expected. I suppose that leaves Polar Bear as the best option; just have Waterbreathing prepared a lot and teach it to dive.

You can have Giant Octopus on 10 (if you can take 3 levels higher creatures thanks to Natural Bond, that is), btw, which does have the real deal as far as attacks go.

Godskook
2009-10-17, 09:33 PM
Well, I want a ship because it would be pretty awesome... plus, leadership as a free bonus feat would go to waste if I was just swimming.

Not if you find enough reasonable ways to have amphibious followers/cohorts. You could be the group's underwater division.

Now, don't you have a game to DM?

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 09:36 PM
I could get merfolk with leadership, I suppose. I might even put one of my 18s in charisma for a bonus to my leadership score. (probably not, since that's only one more companion).

I think a large shark would be the best actual aquatic companion, but an Elasmosaurus seems pretty powerful in combat, though it can only stay underwater for 22 hours. Then again, if I have a bunch of aquatic followers, it could still fight, just not scout.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 09:40 PM
EDIT: Also, a regular squid has one attack that does almost no damage, and another attack that has a low attack bonus and can grapple. Seems... meh.

Hm, true. I totally overlooked that the arms are rolled into one attack. It's still an insane grappler (thanks to the +4 racial bonus), but not as good as I expected. I suppose that leaves Polar Bear as the best option; just have Waterbreathing prepared a lot and teach it to dive.

You can have Giant Octopus on 10 (if you can take 3 levels higher creatures thanks to Natural Bond, that is), btw, which does have the real deal as far as attacks go.


Note that Waterbreathing effectively lasts all day when cast on a single creature so while having couple of extras (in case of Dispels and such) is pivotal, just one Chained Waterbreathing makes the entire team capable of going underwater as necessary.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 10:16 PM
Admiral's Bicorne is expensive (one third my wealth) but a +5 on leadership means I get a huge increase in followers for my ship. Would it be worth it, or not? Also, how do I get a ship that works underwater?

EDIT: Also, what skills do I need to be a captain of a ship?

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 10:23 PM
You can't chain it since it's a touch spell, but I can give 14 hours of water breathing total to all creatures touched; if I have to go into combat, a ship of a few people could easily get in the water for a few hours.

You can Reach Spell it, then Chain it; you need to learn Reach Spell, of course. Same trick works with Greater Magic Fang (use Rod of Chain Spell [MiC has reasonable price]), which I warmly suggest if you get yourself an Octopus (casting Greater Magic Fang 8 times per day puts quite the strain on even the resources of a level 10 Druid).

As for Bicorne, if you get Craft Wondrous Items, sure. Otherwise, not yet. And submergible vehicles exist...in some book. There's also a spell (may be a Wizard-spell) that effectively turns a vehicle into a submarine, probably in Spell Compendium.


EDIT: Also, what skills do I need to be a captain of a ship? Also, how do I get a ship that works underwater?

Profession: Sailor is the big one. You also can't get by without Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Geography) and Survival can be handy too. And obviously, as a captain, you are assumed to be the talker of the ship too, so Diplomacy, Bluff & Intimidate (along with Sense Motive) are all relevant.

I could see Swim being quite useful, along with the skills needed to actually run the ship: Balance ('cause ships are unstable by default), Climb, Use Rope & Profession: Siege Engineer. Maybe Profession: Merchant too if you're interested in that sort of stuff. The good news is that a lot of relevant stuff (Professions, Survival & Sense Motive) are derived off your Wisdom which is pretty good.

Really, as a captain, I'd focus on having good Cha and Wis and just put some ranks in the skills for running the thing (though most are Dex-derived; Str only governs Swim & Climb and you can do most climbing by flying and swimming with Freedom of Movement + Waterbreathing or shapeshifting). Luckily most of the relevant skills are in-class (unfortunately Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive are not). You could perhaps try some feat to assist there like Nymph's Kiss (really helps with all the diplomacy skills and extra points just help overall) or some Apprenticeships or some such.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 10:25 PM
Wouldn't an Admiral's Bicorn let me hire people who could do all that? With a leadership score of 16 or 15 from it, I could get around 25 companions. It would cost a pretty penny, but I don't really need many items as a druid. I'm not really sure how generally I can recruit people, but I think I could get a few siege engineers, sailors, people who can navigate, etc. Maybe the third and second level companions could be spellcasters.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 10:33 PM
Wouldn't an Admiral's Bicorn let me hire people who could do all that? With a leadership score of 16 or 15 from it, I could get around 25 companions. It would cost a pretty penny, but I don't really need many items as a druid.

Sure, and others would do all it, but you need Profession: Sailor, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: Geography & Survival as the captain, and how the hell are you expecting anyone but the captain of the boat to do negotiations? You're not, so you should damn well take some conversational skills too (Diplomacy is in class for Druids, just FYI).

Then Balance is just a matter of convenience; the ship is rocking and nobody can stay up for you, you gotta do it yourself. The rest, yeah, other people will do them. However, it's not really inspiring to have a captain who can't tell his ropes or ballistas apart, and if something bad happens (like you get attacked which might happen quite a bit in D&D) and crewmen die, you're the ultimate backup.

Godskook
2009-10-17, 10:36 PM
@Eldariel, a Queen Amidala setup with a party-face cohort would do the trick.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 10:38 PM
@Eldariel, a Queen Amidala setup with a party-face cohort would do the trick.

Mayhap. But given Druids can afford a lot of points in mental stats thanks to Wildshape, it's generally doable, especially on higher PB, to at least max out Diplomacy.

By the way, if you're a Human, do pick up Able Learner. You'll want a lot of different cross-class skills so it really saves you points.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 10:38 PM
True. I probably don't need them maxed, just with a few ranks, correct? Profession Sailor will be maxed, and so will knowledge nature, spellcraft, concentration, swim (maybe not, since I can just pick a form that can swim,), and diplomacy which leaves me with 2/3 skill points every level to distribute to my other captaining skills.

Also, Able Learner seems to be a good idea, but how many cross class skills will I need? Bluff and such, true, but the professions are class skills and I can get by pretty well with 18 cha and a +5 bonus to all of them from my hat, plus it doesn't hurt that I also have great diplomacy.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 10:48 PM
You don't need Spellcraft maxed out unless you plan on being a Battlemage; its only use to a Druid is to identify others' spells.

Profession: Sailor, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Nature and Concentration should absolutely be maxed out. Unfortunately Geography isn't in class for you (it's used to set a course and it's gonna be a huge bummer if you botch that one up), but make do. Survival is very handy; at least get the 5 ranks, the "always know where north is" is absolutely pivotal in the open seas.

You need enough ranks in Handle Animal to train your animal companion; whatever you need to reach +10 (counting the +4 from Handling your AC) is sufficient to take 10 on the training. Maxing out Swim is a good idea; Swim is used to escape water hazards in addition to just swimming so even if you're in a swimmer form, the Swim-ranks can come in handy. Also, cross-class max Balance; it'll be really, really bad if you fall over just when the ship is attacked.


You should be able to pull off any necessary Heal, Profession: Siege Engineering & Profession: Merchant checks on your Wisdom alone. Might wanna toss a rank or two to represent your experience in these matters though.

Note that spells can cover most of what you need, but in case you end up Dead Magic, you'll want to be able to function without. And yeah, max out Diplomacy. I'd crossclass max Sense Motive if I had the points; thanks to your Wis, you can do quite alright even though it's a crossclass skill. And Intimidate and Bluff, even just a couple of points, are always handy.

Also, as a captain, Spot can be very useful given it's used to scout for land, other ships and such. Usually not your job, but it's your job to verify whatever the resident mastman saw and what to do about it.


So cross-class:
Bluff
Intimidate
Sense Motive
Knowledge: Geography
Balance


Also, Tumble is ever-useful.

Godskook
2009-10-17, 10:50 PM
I think you'll want your swim speed maxed out, unless you've got another way of getting a non-magical swim speed. The last thing you need is to be a antimagic-kill target(can wildshape be dispelled? that'd make swim even more important).

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 10:53 PM
So Able Learner seems to be my option then.

That would leave me with, at 7th level, and with stats 18 wis, 18 cha, 16 int...

80 skill points total:

2 ranks in handle animal.
5 ranks in Knowledge: Geography
5 ranks in Survival.
10 ranks in Concentration
10 ranks in Profession: Sailor
10 ranks in Knowledge: Nature
5 ranks in Sense Motive
5 ranks in Balance
5 ranks in Bluff
5 ranks in Intimidate
10 ranks in Swim

That's 72 ranks, so I have 8 ranks for spellcraft, Siege Engineering, and Merchant. Probably going to go with, say...

5 ranks Siege Engineering.
2 ranks Spellcraft
1 rank Heal.

EDIT: And then I still could use Balance and Spot. Not sure what I need to cut for that.

And then I'll go for the money minded Druid Pirate, leading his crew on wonderful adventures and killing the hell out of everything. Yay!

EDIT: Also, with 100k left, and an effective crew of 30 with leadership (though my cohort and level 3 and 2 people are probably going to be more magical repairmen and buffers than sailors), what kind of ship should I get, and what magic items and such should it have? Air weed (or whatever the 25 GP thing that lets you breathe water for 5 minutes) would be useful, I know.

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 10:54 PM
Actually, be Old. With those stats, your Str will then be 11, Con 14, Dex 14 and your mentals will skyrocket. 20 Int, 20 Wis and 18 Cha looks pretty good (I suggest it like that since Capt'n likes skill points, as we have concluded).

With your position of Captain, it only makes sense, and you'll still be physically fit enough to kick anyone's ass.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 10:56 PM
That would be impressive, I admit. I suppose I could fluff I've had a lot of adventures to build up my fortune (I wrote it as I inherited my magical hat.)

Jergmo
2009-10-17, 10:57 PM
True, but I wouldn't have all the nifty ship items; I couldn't have cannons attached to my dinosaur... or could I?

*Thinks about that Dinowaurs game I saw on Kongregate*

Wow. That would be pretty awesome.

DINO RIDERS!!!

http://woodytondorf.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/dino20riders.jpg

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 11:04 PM
That is a nice picture.

So now that I've got my skill points distributed (with the extras from 20 int, I could get max ranks in spot and upgrade my siege engineer so I autosucceed, or give myself some tumble, or both, really), I just need to buy a ship.

Also, can you tumble underwater? Tumbling sharks, whee!

Godskook
2009-10-17, 11:08 PM
Good captains don't do everything themselves. They delegate.

A dragonfire adept will probably make the best knowledge monkey you can get, freeing up 15 skillpoints right there(They get a +6 to all knowledge checks for the cost of an invocation). In a level, you can have him pick up extra invocation, and he becomes the party air conditioner, as well as the knowledge monkey(assuming your first two invocations were aquatic adaption and draconic knowledge. Endure exposure is necessary in the long run for a DFA, and you don't want to spend his higher invocation slots on it).

Can you tell I'm on a DFA kick these days?

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 11:08 PM
One skill you still lack is Use Rope. You should really get 3 ranks; with 14 Dex that allows you to Take 10 to do all the activities you need on a boat. Also, as per Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), you can trade Ride for Tumble (which is pretty obvious for a Pirate IMHO). This has no practical meaning, except it increases your max Tumble ranks, which could prove handy, but as you won't be picking up Ride anyways...

@Godskook: I'd personally want to have the capacity to do a decent job at any task; that way I can better appraise how good the underlings are doing (and who to hire for the job), I'm more like to be respected by the underlings and I can take over if some are injured or killed. Besides, have you honestly ever heard of a captain who started off as a captain? Basically all have the background of a mariner.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 11:12 PM
Good captains don't do everything themselves. They delegate.

A dragonfire adept will probably make the best knowledge monkey you can get, freeing up 15 skillpoints right there(They get a +6 to all knowledge checks for the cost of an invocation). In a level, you can have him pick up extra invocation, and he becomes the party air conditioner, as well as the knowledge monkey(assuming your first two invocations were aquatic adaption and draconic knowledge. Endure exposure is necessary in the long run for a DFA, and you don't want to spend his higher invocation slots on it).

Can you tell I'm on a DFA kick these days?

I'm planning on going straight druid, and I can't get a Polar Bear or a dinosaur if I start with a level in DFA, and well... I don't know where I'll find a giant dinosaur to tame. Polar Bear is still mechanically better, but... a giant dinosaur! If the DM allows it, I'd really like that.

Godskook
2009-10-17, 11:13 PM
I'm planning on going straight druid, and I can't get a Polar Bear or a dinosaur if I start with a level in DFA, and well... I don't know where I'll find a giant dinosaur to tame. Polar Bear is still mechanically better, but... a giant dinosaur! If the DM allows it, I'd really like that.

I was suggesting a DFA cohort, not multiclassing.


@Godskook: I'd personally want to have the capacity to do a decent job at any task; that way I can better appraise how good the underlings are doing (and who to hire for the job), I'm more like to be respected by the underlings and I can take over if some are injured or killed. Besides, have you honestly ever heard of a captain who started off as a captain? Basically all have the background of a mariner.


1.A high sense motive is all you really need to know if someone is doing their job right.

2.Are you speaking of real captains or fantasy captains? Cause if its the latter, Dread Pirate Roberts and Monkey D. Luffy both come to mind off the top of my head. Also, I'm not suggesting he drop Profession(Sailor), just the Knowledge skills. Any Know(Nature) skills that'd be picked up by a climb-the-ranks captain should be covered by Prof(Sailor).

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 11:15 PM
I was suggesting a DFA cohort, not multiclassing.

That would be a different story. Where is DFA from, again?

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 11:17 PM
I was suggesting a DFA cohort, not multiclassing.

On a ship, I'd rather get a Bard. They're pretty good with Knowledges too, particularly once you start with applications of Inspiration, and really, really kick ass with a huge crew.

Btw, I realized I didn't suggest Wildshape forms for you yet, so I'm gonna say "Giant Octopus is pretty good" now.


EDIT: DFA is from Dragon Magic and available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2).

Jack_Simth
2009-10-17, 11:17 PM
Nice rolls. As a Druid, I'd be inclined to go wtih 18 Wis, 18 Con, 17 Dex, 17 Cha, 16 Int, and 14 Str.

As a Druid, you don't really need a ship. Honestly, I'd be inclined to take the waterbreathing alternate bonus, skip Leadership, and be done with it. You're taking a penalty to your Leadership score with the animal companion anyway, and in ship-to-ship combat, Wildshape's got you covered. Plus, you know, Rusting Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rustingGrasp.htm) to disintegrate ironclads, and Warp Wood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/warpWood.htm) to render actual ships useless. Sadly, you don't have Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) available, but even the fastest ships in Stormwrack can't outrun a Porpoise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm), Shark (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm), or Squid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squid.htm), which you can be on a moment's notice (well, unless the winds are particularly good, anyway). And you just have to get close enough to the opponent ship to cast mean spells at it.

If you want to have your bases covered, pick up a Folding Boat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#boatFolding) and a Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole), so you can put it away when it becomes inconvenient (which it will, as a Druid).

As an added bonus, you now don't need to keep up all those shipboard skills.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 11:20 PM
The thing is, I want to have a ship (it's cool!), plus swimming for hours is probably considered exhausting. As well as that, there are other players, and I can't particularly see them being fine with "hey, hop on the shark's back instead of on a cool ship with 30 awesome experts and spellcasters running around doing stuff."

Eldariel
2009-10-17, 11:31 PM
Hmm, actually, now that I think about it, Cloistered Cleric would also be a better-than-Bard cohort choice for making the whole crew more efficient; they've got a good suite of buffs just as Bards do. As a bonus, Cloistered Clerics make for great spell duelists (to protect your ship from the various spells that could be very nasty surprises) thanks to their access to Divine Defiance; just get the Inquisition-domain and various other Dispel buffs (Divine Spell Power is a good one) to Dispel Magic along with Arcane Mastery (possibly though Magical Talent or just being a Gnome) and they'll be countering spells from far higher level hostile casters.

And has been pointed out, spells are a huge part of naval duels. Ultimately though, Bards probably expand your repertoire more (as Druids and Clerics have a lot of overlap) and enables more fearsome combat capabilities for the various crew members through Inspire. It's a trade-off either way. Both have Lore-like ability, Bards have Bardic Music along with buff-dedicated spell list while Clerics have a very variable spell list (thanks to Domains; one with Spell Domain as spontaneously castable could cover a lot of stuff you might otherwise miss) along with a solid bunch of defensive & buff-spells, and Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are absolutely amazing to deal with some of the skill checks in the sea.

Milskidasith
2009-10-17, 11:39 PM
I think I'd like a Bard better as a cohort mostly for fluff; a second mate (first mate is somebody else in the campaign) who sings and makes everybody better at their jobs when the going gets tough just seems to fit better than a holy scholar who is, for some reason, the second mate of a charismatic Druid pirate.

Godskook
2009-10-17, 11:44 PM
In defense of the DFA cohort, he's got the ability to knowledge monkey very solidly, as well as make a wonderful lancer-type cohort.

Specifics:

Feats:
1.Entangling Exhalation
3.Draconic Aura - Vigor
6.Extra Invocation(see invocations, projected feat)

Invocations:
1.Aquatic Adaption(Can breath water, can use breathe weapon in water)
3.Draconic Knowledge(Knowledge monkey extroirdinaire)
6.Draconic Flight(Feat: Endure Exposure, again projected choices).

Breath Effects:
5.Slow breath(Between this and Entangling, he's a debuff king)

All that involved, he can slow and entangle the enemies(at L6, through the crew), have max ranks in most relevant knowledge skills, and provide some decent battle healing for local troops. A great guy to say "cover the port side" and ignore.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 12:15 AM
Bard would be the second mate while Cleric would be the second caster; interesting dilemma. Ultimately I'd go with Cleric simply to protect the ship from enemy casters (it's pretty hard), but that's all your decision, of course.

As for ships, you really should open Stormwrack. I'd personally suggest Elf Wingship if available; you can do something about the winds and the speed of that ship is unmatched, which is pretty awesome for piracy. Of course, the problem is with getting one; it's stated that they're practically never sold to non-elves. Also, the fact that it doesn't have oars makes some perils, particularly magical hazards extremely fearsome.


Dromond would be the choice if you wanted a rowable ship, though note how it needs 100 rowers to be fully manned. This requires Leadership score of ~23, which you won't be getting in a while yet (level 11 or so with all the boosts you've got, it should be doable though) so you'd have to hire some rowers.

I wouldn't go for Ironclad even though it's the "best" ship you could get for the money; speed is where it's at for you (though hardiness doesn't hurt either) if you're a pirate.


EDIT: Deleting posts while I'm posting, are you? Now you're just making me look silly.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 12:21 AM
An elf wingship looks good, but I can't even fit everybody in it, really. I mean, with no bonuses for great renown (as a pirate, I might get that) or supernatural abilities (I'm a guy who can transform into sea animals and can do everything on a ship as well as the next guy), it's still at the max amount of crew members.

I could always say I stole the elf wingship and still deduct the cost from my WBL, though. :P

EDIT: And yeah, if I got a bard at third level, I'd still get inspire competence, while a cleric of fifth level as a cohort works out better, so it's nice. If only I could get an expanded capacity elf wingship. I have 28 followers, 1 cohort, one animal companion, at least one other player with me, and me. Assuming I can sleep underwater every day, we barely fit into the ship. Are there any ways to expand the capacity of the ship, magically or nonmagically?

Also, what items would you recommend for the ship? With 40k spent on the ship, I now have 60K left for personal items or ship items, plus whatever other players chip in for the ship.

EDIT X2: How much does it cost to hire rowers?

Jack_Simth
2009-10-18, 12:26 AM
The thing is, I want to have a ship (it's cool!), plus swimming for hours is probably considered exhausting. As well as that, there are other players, and I can't particularly see them being fine with "hey, hop on the shark's back instead of on a cool ship with 30 awesome experts and spellcasters running around doing stuff."
They all have their own ships, no?

But the ships themselves (at least, as presented in Stormwrack) are (for the most part) big, expensive targets, and they're not exactly easy to repair. You're 7th level with 14th level wealth. If your 40,000 gp, 12 section Elf Wingship gets holed once, it takes 14 days, 1333 gp, 3 sp, 3 cp to get it fixed ... assuming you're just at some random island (7 days at a dock, 3 days at a large shipyard, but the costs don't change), and can make the DC 20 Craft checks taking ten. Now, while the 150 hp, hardness-6 sections are unlikely to get fully holed at your level, you'll be progressing, and it'll become progressively more likely. Even with the 51,000 gp Admiral's Bicorne, your Leadership score (if you take the Animal Companion) is only going to be 13 (Charisma 16 or 17) or 14 (Charisma 18) - one Cohort, 11 or 16 followers. Yeah, you can run an Elf Wingship with that... barely. Don't lose anyone. With a Cloak of Charisma +6 to go with that (36k more) for another +3, you're looking at a Leadership score of 16 or 17, which gives you a decent sized crew... but then you've got little cash left for the ship itself.

If you skip the Animal Companion (as that cuts your Leadership down by 2), you'll do okay, or if you take a ship that doesn't require much of a crew (Theurgeme, 80k; watch: 1; Caravel, 10k, watch 7), you'll be fine... but bear in mind: You'll need enough followers to cover at least two watches in a day. And the ship mostly just lets you move stuff - it doesn't help much in actual battle.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 12:31 AM
If you skip the Animal Companion (as that cuts your Leadership down by 2), you'll do okay, or if you take a ship that doesn't require much of a crew (Theurgeme, 80k; watch: 1; Caravel, 10k, watch 7), you'll be fine... but bear in mind: You'll need enough followers to cover at least two watches in a day. And the ship mostly just lets you move stuff - it doesn't help much in actual battle.

Animal Companion only counts against your Cohort-level, not your Leadership score so we're talking ~19 here (Cohort-level will easily be maxed way into epic anyways) and that's before accounting for Great Renown (an old pirate? Yeah.), Special Power (Druid? Yeah.) and Stronghold/Base of Operations (your ship!); with Moves Around-penalty, that's +4 so 23 with the +6 Cloak. By the way, it may be worthwhile to also own some stronghold (maybe some small Pirates' Haven somewhere or something) if you go with a small, fast ship.

And with Elven Wingship, my only worry would again be dead magic areas with hazards; that's gonna be a pickle where you just have to jump into the water and push the ship out, which seems pretty hard without magic.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 12:34 AM
Err... having an animal companion only affects your cohort, not your leadership score. And since I can attract a 10th level cohort with my modified level, at level 7, it doesn't hurt, at all, to have a polar bear on board.

Also, stop trying to convince me not to buy a ship. It isn't going to work. I like the concept of actually sailing around on a ship. Yes, it's a big target and requires a lot to fix, but I've got clerics who can cast Make Whole to fix anything that isn't completely destroyed, in the middle of combat. The other people may have ships, they may not; one posted interest as my first mate. I want a ship that can hold my followers, move fast, and be a pirate with, and an elven wingship does just that, albeit barely.

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 12:46 AM
Btw, you could actually man a Dromond with 23 Leadership score! If you get the damnable Cloak of Charisma +6 and get a Dromond, you're set for life (and as soon as you gain levels, deaths of followers wouldn't be a problem in attracting more due to your obscene Charisma). It's also big enough to house all your Followers and then some until epic levels.

That said, if you go with a Wingship, you need some sort of Stronghold where the rest of your Followers can stay at. Or a sister ship or something. Also, note that you get some high-level Cohorts; level 5 and 6 characters can already be very competent. Suggest Wizards/Clerics for ship movement, combat and such purposes so you don't need to dedicate your own magic to keeping the ship going. Again, also extra magical protection.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 12:52 AM
Yeah, my plan was to have a cleric as my cohort, because that gets me make whole, Create Food and Water (for 15 people a day per casting, so once a day halves our food requirements), wind wall, water walk, etc. Then probably a bard as one of my level 3 followers (inspire competence!) and the rest probably sorcerers with high bluff and profession skills. The cleric would probably have maxed out knowledge (geography) and spellcraft; he'd be my advisor, navigator, and doctor.

This is way too awesome, and if this campaign sinks (hah, hah) then I'm probably going to try to find another DM just for this character, though I'll probably never find one who lets me keep the rolls or the money. >_>

Also, I don't think I'm going to get the cloak of charisma, but it could happen. By the way, how many rowers are there per set of oars? I was wondering how much it would cost to get oars of speed for the whole thing. Plus, I don't know if the DM would let me keep get the base charisma bonuses; while it makes sense, it kind of makes me OP, even if I planned for all my followers to be NPCs for repairs, fluff, and versimilitude mostly, and combat help secondly.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 01:46 AM
Oh, another question: What are good weapons for a ship? The base weapons listed seem kind of... terrible, are there any ways to get ships to do anything decent? It doesn't help that the Elven Wingship has almost no slots for things to equip. Maybe flying birds with rocks?

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 02:03 AM
Oh, another question: What are good weapons for a ship? The base weapons listed seem kind of... terrible, are there any ways to get ships to do anything decent? It doesn't help that the Elven Wingship has almost no slots for things to equip. Maybe flying birds with rocks?

It's possible to get magical siege engines. Rules are in Heroes of Battle; basically you need Mw. siege engine (which is extra 2x from the original cost) and then pay for abilities like with normal weapons.

Also, alchemical ammunition helps. That said, yeah, it's kinda silly how a decent warrior deals much more damage than even an average cannon. Great Bombard has a very respectable damage, though. Add to that some magical enhancements and you're good.

That said, I'd rather take one high-level Archer any day of the week. Hell, an Eternal Blade around level 19 could easily match many ships' firepower.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 02:06 AM
I think it would be strange if a level 19 character couldn't deal as much damage as an inanimate object. ;)

Anyway, so I can probably have one Great Bombard on my ship... which gives me a grand total of 6d10 damage every 10 rounds, and uses up my one weapon slot. If I add a firebomb, it's 6d10+3d6 and lights the ship on fire, which is kind of OK, but... it's a one shot weapon. I'd rather freaking drop rocks on it with birds (can I do that?)

Anyway, where do you get alchemical ammo? I can only find the firebomb, but other stuff would be nice.

EDIT: Also, a Kineticist would be very nice... with energy missile, it's Xd6-X damage to five sections of the ship each round. Yay for Energy Missile!

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 02:15 AM
I think it would be strange if a level 19 character couldn't deal as much damage as an inanimate object. ;)

Anyway, so I can probably have one Great Bombard on my ship... which gives me a grand total of 6d10 damage every 10 rounds, and uses up my one weapon slot. If I add a firebomb, it's 6d10+3d6 and lights the ship on fire, which is kind of OK, but... it's a one shot weapon. I'd rather freaking drop rocks on it with birds (can I do that?)

Anyway, where do you get alchemical ammo? I can only find the firebomb, but other stuff would be nice.

Heroes of Battle. It has rules for Magical Siege Engines. Also, you should be able to fire the Cannon more often with more people operating it; this is also stated in Heroes of Battle. Though it would be really helpful if they managed to not-botch the damn Profession: Siege Engineer checks.

Two operators with successful checks can fire it once per 5 rounds. And it may be possible to multitask a bit, firing even faster.


And level 19 Eternal Blade doesn't only beat one cannon; it beats multiple ships with their entire payloads quite easily. And that's assuming those 6d10 cannons and 3d10 cannons in all the mounts (quick calculation shows that an Eternal Blade Archer can reach 16 shots per round at 1d8+13 without any magic at all; Adamantine Arrows and he'll be mincemeating ships like no tomorrow and that's without accounting for counting Knowledge Devotion (through Archi/Engineering) vs. objects).

Two arrows deal average of 36 damage, which is 3 more than 1 Cannon. So he can match 9 Great Bombards being fired. Without using magic. And that's not even very good; if building for non-magical efficiency, we can actually reach 2d8+13 and if using Dragon Magazine content, that at 20 attacks per round (or 22x20 or 440 damage). I guess I'm just pissed at how inefficient it is to use siege weapons in a world with great heroes; little reason to use them or armies or anything else when a bored Wizard can wipe them all out with a snap of fingers and a high-level Fighter can just level them with 0 danger to himself by walking briskly.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 09:18 AM
So is there any better option for weapons besides getting bigger followers to blast with? Also, he's ruled out gunpowder weapons, so no great bombard.

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:26 AM
Buy wands of fireballs.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 09:36 AM
Those are prohibitively expensive and probably can't even get past the hardness on some ships.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-18, 09:42 AM
Buy wands of fireballs.
To go with Sorcerer/Wizard/Rogue/Bard followers? Could work. See if you can get them with Energy Substitution (Sonic) or Energy Substitution (Acid).

Also, stop trying to convince me not to buy a ship. It isn't going to work. I like the concept of actually sailing around on a ship. Yes, it's a big target and requires a lot to fix, but I've got clerics who can cast Make Whole to fix anything that isn't completely destroyed, in the middle of combat. The other people may have ships, they may not; one posted interest as my first mate. I want a ship that can hold my followers, move fast, and be a pirate with, and an elven wingship does just that, albeit barely.
Okay.

Alternate ships, then: The Cavalier, while not as fast as the Elven Wingship, is more durable overall (but is holed more easily), and is much less expensive to repair. A few gust of Wind spells, and maybe a harness for your swim-capable animal companion if you hit a null magic zone, and you're good to go.

As for the animal companion - the plan for a Polar Bear works great; just prep a few spells of Water Breathing, or maybe get it a Collar Necklace of Adaptation if you're worried about Dispels. Then it's got a swim speed, has no problems under water (it can breathe just fine), and you've got a Polar Bear at level 7. Plus, you know, in a level, you'll be able to become a polar bear.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 09:46 AM
Do you mean a caraval, not a cavalier?

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:47 AM
Get Eternal wands maybe?

Or if you can cheese it out, eternal wands of slightly arcane-thesis'd fireballs for acid or sonic and some other metamagic.

might be too expensive now, but worth considering.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 09:51 AM
Still seems pricey, but there aren't really better ways to do things, besides just getting kineticist companions. Yay for Energy Missile!

Godskook
2009-10-18, 10:35 AM
Get Eternal wands maybe?

Or if you can cheese it out, eternal wands of slightly arcane-thesis'd fireballs for acid or sonic and some other metamagic.

might be too expensive now, but worth considering.

Energy substitution is a +0 metamagic...

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 11:42 AM
Here's the sheet I've got worked up so far (no companions and no animal companion statted up yet):

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=159486

paddyfool
2009-10-18, 11:48 AM
My suggestions:

- Pool your funds with other players for a decent ship to share, with fun armament, and, if possible, submersability. Other people on this forum would be better equipped to advise you than I am on the details thereof, but this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117316) also had some very fun ideas.
- Get the elasmosaurus as your animal companion, call them Nessie.
- To keep with a somewhat reptilian theme... well, I don't recall if you've ever specified your race, but if you haven't, why not go Aquatic Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticRaces), and take your cohort and followers from the same race? It's not the most powerful choice, but as a straight druid with your stats you really don't need to worry about that too much, and it fits nicely with the Elasmosaurus thematically.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 11:51 AM
I'm a human, and I decided on polar bear (though I may change to a dinosaur.)

Frog Dragon
2009-10-18, 11:56 AM
Do you mean a caraval, not a cavalier?
[Obligatory Nitpick]
Caravel:smalltongue:[/Obligatory Nitpick]

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 11:57 AM
Also, what are the specifics on capsizing a ship? It says that if a ship takes a strong attack from below it can capsize, but I see no rules for how that works.

waterpenguin43
2009-10-18, 12:18 PM
Ooh, maybe you could be a legendary captain.
But anyway, put a ton of ranks into these skills:
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (geography)
Proffesion (sailor)
Swim
and a few into Use Rope.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 12:20 PM
Legendary Captain would be lovely, but... not an option, really. I've got one feat left, and I don't really know what to take; I put Multiattack in it's place, but I was thinking I could get the one that lets me intimidate enemy ships instead; I am a dread pirate.

paddyfool
2009-10-18, 12:27 PM
Ashbound, for better/longer lasting summoned aquatic creatures and water elementals?

Godskook
2009-10-18, 12:27 PM
I am a dread pirate.

But are you the real dread pirate Roberts? Also, are you left-handed?

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 12:44 PM
I am not left handed! :P

And no, I'm the Dread Pirate Johnathan Soileau.

Sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=159486

With Winston, my trustworthy polar bear (DM allowed it to be a level 7 companion starting with the stats of the brown bear, but with a swim speed.)

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=160985

Eldariel
2009-10-18, 12:53 PM
With Improved Grapple, your Bear's Grapple Mod should be +23, not +14. +9 Str, +6 BAB, +4 Large, +4 Imp. Grapple. Also, don't forget to cast buff-spells on it. At the very least Greater Magic Fang and probably Greater Resistance [Spell Compendium]. Also, you could get it Mithril Chain Barding. First of all, armored bear looks friggin' badass. Second, it has no ACP so it doesn't intervene with anything.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 01:20 PM
I forgot the strength mod entirely... my bear went from "beats most stuff at this level" to "can out grapple a giant octopus."

Also, I'm going to have some trouble making all my followers with a leadership of 19... I mean, I don't want to optimize them, but even for fluff reasons, it hurts to take stuff like Skill Focus: Craft (Carpentry). I've got my cleric cohort statted up, but I've still got nine followers to write up. Bleh. I was thinking my level 5 follower would be a kineticist psion or a wizard with energy substitution (sonic): lot's of blasty in either of them.

Question: Where are the rules for object damage?

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 02:01 PM
Energy substitution is a +0 metamagic...
Yep, that's why I said abuse some other metamagic like empower spell for example.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-18, 02:28 PM
I forgot the strength mod entirely... my bear went from "beats most stuff at this level" to "can out grapple a giant octopus."

Also, I'm going to have some trouble making all my followers with a leadership of 19... I mean, I don't want to optimize them, but even for fluff reasons, it hurts to take stuff like Skill Focus: Craft (Carpentry). I've got my cleric cohort statted up, but I've still got nine followers to write up. Bleh. I was thinking my level 5 follower would be a kineticist psion or a wizard with energy substitution (sonic): lot's of blasty in either of them.

Actually, if you're aboard ship, stuff like Skill Focus(Craft(Carpentry)), Skill Focus(Profession(Sailor)) and the like are handy things to have in your followers - you'll eventually need shipwrights to repair inevitable damage to the vessel.


Question: Where are the rules for object damage?
You can find those in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering) fairly easily.

Milskidasith
2009-10-18, 02:38 PM
Thank you!

Godskook
2009-10-18, 03:47 PM
I forgot the strength mod entirely... my bear went from "beats most stuff at this level" to "can out grapple a giant octopus."

Also, I'm going to have some trouble making all my followers with a leadership of 19... I mean, I don't want to optimize them, but even for fluff reasons, it hurts to take stuff like Skill Focus: Craft (Carpentry).

Skill focus and followers were made for each other!

A L3 human follower with Skill Focus in both spot and listen, quick reconnoiter, combined with a high wisdom makes a superb nightwatchmen(+8+wis spot/listen checks made as a free action, every round he's alive).

The problem with skill focus for PCs is that you've got so many roles to fill that its unreasonable to devote a whole feat to a single skill. Followers just don't have that problem of having to fill more than one or two roles a piece.