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View Full Version : [3.5 PEACH] When You Play with Fire . . . . Ideas for Miscasting



Golden-Esque
2009-10-18, 06:13 PM
It's rather difficult to take five paces on any serious discussion board about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition without hearing about how ridiculous Wizards, Druids, and Clerics get as they level when compared to a Warrior or a Rogue.

Naturally, this brings us to the crossroads of "What to Do For Balance?" Some people are perfectly content with smashing apart Wizards of the Coast's spellcasting system, removing classic spells because they are (let's face it) over powered. Others just point to the Tome of Battle as a catch-all bible of awesome. Still others come up with complicating solutions to try and balance these classes against martial classes.

As much as I love the Tome of Battle folks, it's going to take more then flashy sword tricks to balance the casters and manifesters from the martial adepts. Because, believe it or not, unlike most spells Martial Maneuvers can fail. You roll bad on a check or attack roll and the maneuver does nothing. So, what if spells had something like this?

This is an expansion of the Spell Fail Chance already presented in the Player's Handbook. Expect instead of only applying when some mages or priests wear armor, all spellcasters have a chance to screw up their spellcasting or manifesting. After all, nobody's perfect :).

Miscasting
Neither spellcasting nor manifesting is a perfect science; people who make use of such powers (referred to as users) have to fear the chance that their powers will fail them. Every apprentice cleric or novice sorcerer has had spells fail on them from time to time, but those are the ones whose mistakes have not addled them beyond recognition. Arcane arts and psionic manifestations are more likely then divine power to suffer from miscasting, but users of magic of all kinds have much to worry about when it comes to utilizing power that was not ment for them.

Failure Chance
All users, regardless of their power, have a failure chance when utilizing their spells. They may speak the incorrect innovacation, mis-preform somatic comoponents, focus slightly too hard, or any other wide variety of mishaps. A character has a chance to fail with a spell or power equal to 10% x the Spell's (or Power) Level. This failure chance is reduced by 2% per caster or manifester level. Therefore, a 5th level wizard casting a 2nd level spell has a 10% failure chance ( {10% x 2} - {2% x 5} ).

Failure Chance Due to Armor
Wearing armor negatively impacts a caster or manifester's ability to perform their spells. The armor's bulk might put strain on the user's body, or make it more difficult to perform components of the spell, such as somatic or verbal components. Unless a character's spellcasting or manifesting class says otherwise, a character takes an additional failure chance equal to their armor's total armor check penalty x 5%.

Using the example above, if the 5th level wizard casting a 2nd level spell was wearing full-plate heavy armor (-6 armor check penalty), he or she would have a total failure chance of 45% ( {10% x 2} + {5% x 6} - {2% x 5} ).

Miscasting
When a user fails to correctly manifest a power or cast a spell, he or she suffers one of a variety of effects.

Table: Miscast Chart

{table=head] d% Roll Result | Effect
01 | Zone of Abbadon
02-20 | Backlash Allies
21 - 70 | Backlash Self
71 - 95 | Energy Backlash
96 - 99 | Fatigued
100 | Supreme Inspiration[/table]

Miscasting Effects

Zone of Abbadon:
You muddled your powers so badly that you tore a minor rift in reality. Though the rift heals nearly instantly, the backlash from the rift's opening blasts all those around you in a blaze of power. Your ability fails, causing you to loose the power points spent, spell slot used, prepared spell, or exhausting the appropriate spell level. In addition, all creatures within 10 feet per spell/power level (including yourself) take 2d6 points of damage per spell level.

Backlash Allies:
The energies you foolishly gathered and squandered lash out from your hands, striking nearby allies. Your ability fails, causing you to loose the power points spent, spell slot used, prepared spell, or exhausting the appropriate spell level. In addition, all allies within 10 feet per spell/power level immediately have the spell the user failed to cast cast upon them. They are allowed saving throws, but they are treated as being flat-footed against your miscast spell.

If the spell would have been beneficial (such as granting bonuses to attack rolls, AC, etc), then those bonuses become penalties instead (this includes bonuses from transfiguring a creature, as the ally instead becomes a grotesque mockery of itself). If the spell would have healed the creature of damage, it deals an appropriate amount of damage instead.

Backlash Self:
The energies you foolishly gathered and squandered lash out from your hands, striking you. Your ability fails, causing you to loose the power points spent, spell slot used, prepared spell, or exhausting the appropriate spell level. In addition, whatever spell you miscast is cast upon you instead. You are not allowed saving throws and any attack rolls automatically succeed against you, unless you have the Combat Casting (if the ability was a spell) or Combat Manifesting (if the ability was a power) feat.

If the spell would have been beneficial (such as granting bonuses to attack rolls, AC, etc), then those bonuses become penalties instead (this includes bonuses from transfigurating a creature, as the ally instead becomes a grotesque mockery of itself). If the spell would have healed the creature of damage, it deals an appropriate amount of damage instead.

Energy Backlash:
The energies you foolishly gathered and squandered lash out from your hands, striking random creatures around you. Your ability fails, causing you to loose the power points spent, spell slot used, prepared spell, or exhausting the appropriate spell level. In addition, you make a touch attack against all creatures within 10 feet per spell or power level of you. A creature who is hit by this backlash suffers 1d4 points of damage per spell or power level. If the miscast ability was a spell, a struck creature must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + spell level) or take 1 point of Constitution damage and become dazed for 1 round. If the miscast ability was a power, a struck creature must make a Will Save (DC 10 + power level) or take 1 point of Wisdom damage and become dazed for 1 round.

Fatigued:
By the luck of the gods, although you miscast your ability, you were able to successfully fix the problem before it went out of hand. Your ability fails, causing you to loose the power points spent, spell slot used, prepared spell, or exhausting the appropriate spell level.In addition, you become fatigued until the end of the turn, and you cannot cast any spells or manifest any powers during the following turn.

Supreme Inspiration:
Luck is on your side today. Although you muddled your spell, the effects benefited you surprisingly well. You cast your spell or manifest your power normally (manifesters cannot make a Concentration check to conceal their manifesting if this result is rolled). In addition, your spell either has its powers maximized (as the Maximize Spell or Maximize Power feats) or has its duration extended {as the Extend Spell or Extend Power feats). If the spell you cast allows a saving throw, the target automatically fails it. If the spell you cast requires an attack roll to succeed, you automatically critically hit (you must confirm the critical hit as normal).

A Look at the Game

Now that the rules are up, I'm going to go over briefly how I think this will affect each of the spellcasting and manifesting classes.

Naturally, this will have the biggest implications on the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion, and Wilder, as those classes get the highest-leveled spells and powers.

This has a moderate effect on the Psychic Warrior and Bard at lower levels, but since both classes gain new power and spell levels more slowly then the Main casters, and both of them have a smaller maximum spell level, it ends up affecting them less and less at higher levels.

This has less of an impact on Paladins and Rangers, since they are already at 4th level when they receive 1st level spells (meaning a 2% failure chance). This is intended; after all, since when were we complaining about the spellcasting abilities of the Paladin and Ranger 0_0?

Since many (not all) prestige classes work by advancing a base class's spellcasting, this has little effect on them. Those that do have their own spellcasting will treat their ECL as their caster level when determining Spell Failure chance (20th Level Blackguards with a 30% SFC on their Blackguard Spells is poor design).

Comments of all kinds are loved,
Questions will be answered,
Critiques, while heart-breaking, will be heard.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-10-18, 06:24 PM
I haven't read all the way through this (fever addled brain, sorry), and it seems like a good concept, but it seems that higher level spells fail a bit too often.

If I understand these rules correctly, then a 20th level user (-40%) casting a 9th level spell/manifesting a 9th level power (90%) has a 50% chance of failure. I don't know if it's just me, but even for higher level powers... it seems a bit too high. Only a one-in-two chance to succeed? Meh...

Pie Guy
2009-10-18, 06:26 PM
Actually, Paladins and rangers are half casters, so instead of 2% failure, they'd have 6% failure.

I don't think healing should have a failure chance, the cleric would be too worried that he'd deal damage to a dying party member.

Glimbur
2009-10-18, 06:55 PM
I disagree with your design philosophy here.

The effect of this is that sometimes wizards et al are still overpowered, and sometimes they burn actions for nothing/damage the party. But if I'm playing a wizard, what can I do besides keep casting spells?

Either the risk of a miscast is worth taking, so wizards continue being too powerful in some encounters but are less predictable, or it isn't worth the risk and no-one plays a wizard.

I feel a better (but harder to implement) idea would be reducing the power of wizard spells, and cleric buffs, and druid wildshape and animal companion, and a bajillion and one other things. Then increase the versatility of other classes so they don't just play cleanup in combat and have limited use outside of it.

Or you could just ban classes until you hit the balance point you want.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-18, 07:14 PM
If I understand these rules correctly, then a 20th level user (-40%) casting a 9th level spell/manifesting a 9th level power (90%) has a 50% chance of failure. I don't know if it's just me, but even for higher level powers... it seems a bit too high. Only a one-in-two chance to succeed? Meh...

And the other 50% of the time you warp reality to your whim, and insta kill creatures :). 9th Level Spells are the realm of gods; should a mortal really be so whimsical with those powers that they stop time and create life from nothing when it best suiits them?

If anything, the Miscast chance asks spellcasters to save their more powerful weapons until they're actually needed.


Actually, Paladins and rangers are half casters, so instead of 2% failure, they'd have 6% failure.

Your logic doesn't make sense to me. You apply your class level (for a Ranger / Paladin at 4th level, it'd be 4) and multiply it by 2% (8%). At 4th level, a Ranger / Paladin can only cast 1st level spells (10% failure), so they'd have a 2% fail chance.


I disagree with your design philosophy here.

The effect of this is that sometimes wizards et al are still overpowered, and sometimes they burn actions for nothing/damage the party. But if I'm playing a wizard, what can I do besides keep casting spells?

This is a legitimate point. However, when a martial character misses with an attack roll, they essentially burn actions for nothing. That, in my opinion, is one of the flaws of the spellcasting system; whereas a martial character can waste their actions, spellcasters often have spells or abilities that either have no chance at failing or a miniscule chance of failing.

However; I suppose melee characters have no limit to the number of times they can swing a sword (even Martial Adepts).

Pie Guy
2009-10-18, 08:15 PM
Your logic doesn't make sense to me. You apply your class level (for a Ranger / Paladin at 4th level, it'd be 4) and multiply it by 2% (8%). At 4th level, a Ranger / Paladin can only cast 1st level spells (10% failure), so they'd have a 2% fail chance.


They're half casters because each class level only causes there caster level by one half.

From the SRD:

At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.

Debihuman
2009-10-18, 09:30 PM
Why not just rely on counterspelling rather than mistcasting a spell? If PCs can just cast spells without ever being countered, of course it is going to be unbalanced. However, with counterspelling there is already a method in place to check the power of a spellcaster. I suspect that DMs who fail to use counterspelling in their games are the ones who complain about spellcasters being too powerful.

Debby

Golden-Esque
2009-10-19, 10:47 AM
Why not just rely on counterspelling rather than mistcasting a spell? If PCs can just cast spells without ever being countered, of course it is going to be unbalanced. However, with counterspelling there is already a method in place to check the power of a spellcaster. I suspect that DMs who fail to use counterspelling in their games are the ones who complain about spellcasters being too powerful.

Debby

Counterspelling as it's placed within the 3.5 Edition Rules is pretty unreliable in and on itself. First, you have to use a ready action. That means you do nothing while you wait for an enemy spellcaster to cast a spell. Second, you have to succeed on a Spellcraft check to even verify that you're able to counter the spell. Finally, you have to cast the exact spell that's being cast. This means that there's virtually no Divine Spellcasters countering the Arcane and vise versa (as only a few of those spells overlap), and Sorcerers and Favored Souls pretty much can't counter anything at all.

Even the Improved Counterspell Feat is "meh", because you still need to expend a spell whose level is one level higher then the target spell. This means when you're fighting an enemy who is the same level as you, or when 9th-Level Spell brandishing casters battle, there's always going to be an entire level of spells you can do nothing about.

And even then, that doesn't solve the issue of Spellcasters getting the edge on Martial Adepts before leaving them in the dust somewhere around the 5th Level Spells area; nor does it address Psions, unless you allow the Psicraft/Magic Transparency rule to work in regards to Counterspelling, but then the Manifest gets the short end of the stick if their 1st level Power with 5 extra expended Power Points is countered by a 1st level Spell.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-19, 11:18 AM
Why do clerics and druids suddenly get hammered by more spell failure? Arcanists aren't harmed by the ACP-based failure (Twilight Mithral shirt), but now clerics and their ilk can't cast worth half a damn. Or does having divine casting count as a specific exemption?

Baron Corm
2009-10-19, 11:51 AM
Spellcasters do have a system for failure similar to attack rolls. They're called saving throws. It would be much easier to just put saves on all spells without them to accomplish the same end. This system is not even as fair as attack rolls, because there's nothing they can do to reduce their failure chance.

If you're trying to introduce balance, a straight hit-or-miss system is never the way to go. If they hit, they're still disabling the creature in a single turn, and with celerity, before it can act. The best way to balance spells is to take out or modify overpowered ones. There should be a sticky at the top of the forum reminding people this so we don't keep having these threads every few weeks.

Milskidasith
2009-10-19, 12:19 PM
You know, I just realized this actually makes timestop more powerful... let's look at it.

You have a 50% chance it casts normally. In addition, you have a .5% chance it deals 18d6 (negligable), a 20% chance it still affects you normally, a .5% chance it is maximized, a 2% chance you are fatigued... and the rest is a chance you chain it and affect the party (actually, 21-30 doesn't have anything on the table, but I'm assuming.)

So you've got about a 15% chance Time Stop (or any other buff, for that matter) is improved massively, in exchange for about a lesser chance it fails for a negligable penalty.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-19, 03:12 PM
You know, I just realized this actually makes timestop more powerful... let's look at it.

You have a 50% chance it casts normally. In addition, you have a .5% chance it deals 18d6 (negligable), a 20% chance it still affects you normally, a .5% chance it is maximized, a 2% chance you are fatigued... and the rest is a chance you chain it and affect the party (actually, 21-30 doesn't have anything on the table, but I'm assuming.)

So you've got about a 15% chance Time Stop (or any other buff, for that matter) is improved massively, in exchange for about a lesser chance it fails for a negligable penalty.


If the spell would have been beneficial (such as granting bonuses to attack rolls, AC, etc), then those bonuses become penalties instead (this includes bonuses from transfiguring a creature, as the ally instead becomes a grotesque mockery of itself). If the spell would have healed the creature of damage, it deals an appropriate amount of damage instead.

The spell would have been beneficial to your allies. In that situation, I'd rule that it would work by stopping time only for those allies.

Thanks for the catch; affecting one's self should be 21 to 70, however, since spells are so ridiculously diverse (as your Time Stop example proves), I'm now thinking that this is not the way to go to limit the power of spellcasters.

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 03:22 PM
Because a trained fighter stabing himself 1/20 swings wasn't enough we need another house rule so that mages stab themselfs 1/20 castings?

The idea would be neat if applied to existing failure sources (such as armor) for more than "the spell fails" though.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-19, 03:26 PM
Because a trained fighter stabing himself 1/20 swings wasn't enough we need another house rule so that mages stab themselfs 1/20 castings?

The idea would be neat if applied to existing failure sources (such as armor) for more than "the spell fails" though.

Actually, yes. Spell Failure from Armor incures the Miscast Chart.

And actually, yes. Mages need to be able to "stab themselfs 1/20 castings :). That's the entire point of my argument. Magic and Psionics are too safe in Dungeons and Dragons.

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 04:03 PM
IMO, luck based stuff is never fun unless it is designed as luck base (and in that case it tends to become less based on luck)

Golden-Esque
2009-10-19, 04:57 PM
IMO, luck based stuff is never fun unless it is designed as luck base (and in that case it tends to become less based on luck)

You must dislike the d20 system as a whole. I'm sorry :(

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 05:50 PM
Luck based as in "roll 1d20, if you roll 1 you do nothing/get massively ****ed this turn" rather than "roll 1d20, if a 1 you miss this single attack and can make your other attacks fine". There is a reason stuff like that is typically caused by curses (which are fine, it shouldn't be fun to be cursed), not core mechanics.