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Samb
2009-10-18, 08:04 PM
So I just had a big discussion with my group yesterday about this feat from complete mage. They feel that this feat is broken and I disagreed. If anything I felt it was a waste of a spell slot.

FIERY BURST [RESERVE]
You channel your magical talent into a blast of fire.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or
higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to
create a 5-foot-radius burst of fire at a range of 30 feet. This
burst deals ld6 points of fire damage per level of the highestlevel
fire spell you have available to cast. A successful Reflex
save halves the damage.
As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus
to your caster level when casting fire spells.
Our warmage at level 7 did this repeatingly and I didn't feel it was all that spectacular. Sacrificing your highest level spell slot to deal 3d6 indefinitely, at level 7 my half-giant psywar routinely exceeded that and my attacks only needed one successful roll to land 3d6+5 and that is before I do any techy stuff like leap attack, psionic lion charge, power attack and deep impact.

My DM and the reast of my group seem to think this completely breaks the main weakness of mages: daily limit on spells

so who was right here? help me out here

sofawall
2009-10-18, 08:06 PM
Fiery Burst is not broken. It is weak.

You need a regular attack, not a touch attack.

You sack a slot to keep it going.

Fire damage sucks.

Direct damage sucks.

What wizard is running out of spells, anyway?

EDIT: Also, the range is abysmal. You have to put yourself into charge range of roughly everything.

Pie Guy
2009-10-18, 08:06 PM
It's only broken in one way: it steals the warlocks main ability. If you don't have a warlock in your party, it's not broken at all.

tyckspoon
2009-10-18, 08:06 PM
You're right, but chances are you'll never be able to convince them of it.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-18, 08:07 PM
The range is a big thing. If your mage is in 30 feet of the enemy, you've just replaced limited spell slots with mages' other big weakness: HP. A move action and a power attack later, and your wizard is in trouble.

Of course, heavy magical defenses mitigate this. But if you're stacking Mirror Image and Concealment and Wind Wall and the like, I really doubt your group would complain so much about reserve feats.


You need a regular attack, not a touch attack.

You don't need any attack. With the lightning one, you don't even allow a save.

nightwyrm
2009-10-18, 08:10 PM
It's arguably weaker than the warlock's EB ability and the warlock's EB is pretty weak already.

deuxhero
2009-10-18, 08:10 PM
@sofawall
It's a Warmage (not wizard) actually, but it's worse because they get more spells/day. If your DM thinks anything short of Rainbow servant (or similar spell list expanding cheese) makes the Warmage powerful, either the rest of the party needs basic min-maxing, or it's hammergun time.

In general, the most frequently taken reserve feats are Touch of Healing (free healing up to half hp. Saves a lot of charges on a wand of cure light wounds/lesser vigor.) Summon Elemental (scout or trap triggerer) and minor shapeshift (various bonuses, but easily refilled temp HP is the most frequent use), not the direct damage ones.

sofawall
2009-10-18, 08:19 PM
You don't need any attack. With the lightning one, you don't even allow a save.

Was I thinking of the force one?

ericgrau
2009-10-18, 08:24 PM
So I just had a big discussion with my group yesterday about this feat from complete mage. They feel that this feat is broken and I disagreed. If anything I felt it was a waste of a spell slot.

Our warmage at level 7 did this repeatingly and I didn't feel it was all that spectacular. Sacrificing your highest level spell slot to deal 3d6 indefinitely, at level 7 my half-giant psywar routinely exceeded that and my attacks only needed one successful roll to land 3d6+5 and that is before I do any techy stuff like leap attack, psionic lion charge, power attack and deep impact.

My DM and the reast of my group seem to think this completely breaks the main weakness of mages: daily limit on spells

so who was right here? help me out here

That pays for itself after 4 rounds or so. And then he can still fireball after that. Yes, it does remove a weakness from the mage, and they really don't need any (more?) weaknesses removed. Most groups will never see this problem and won't know wth your group is talking about, since 95% of the time fiery burst just provides the warmage a way to deal minor damage when things get slow. If your group has long days with many, many encounters designed to give non-casters a chance to shine, OTOH, then it becomes a serious problem. And yeah, if the warmage is anywhere comparable to melee damage or warlock damage all day long, at range, AND gets all his usual spells on top of that, then yeah that's a bit too strong.

IMO just limit the reserve feat to some high number like 5/day and it should provide its original intent without breaking the system when your DM sets up a super long day. On regular days 5/day will still be virtually unlimited.

Thurbane
2009-10-18, 08:31 PM
A lot of groups have a problem with any all day/at will ability. It just requires getting your head around the fact that all/day at will does not equal broken.

Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and (to a lesser degree) Binders operate on this principle, among others. Many groups are initially very weary of allowing these in their game (along with reserve feats), but in actual play, they really are not unbalanced in any meaningful way. Not broken, just different.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-18, 08:31 PM
Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts and (to a lesser degree) Binders operate on this principle, among others. Many groups are initially very weary of allowing these in their game (along with reserve feats), but in actual play, they really are not unbalanced in any meaningful way. Not broken, just different.

And Tome of Battle classes, of course.

Zaq
2009-10-18, 08:32 PM
A caster who is doing 3d6, 4d6, 5d6, or however much you get from a reserve feat, even at will, is a caster who is not single-handedly ending the encounter with Glitterdust, or Polymorph, or Black Tentacles, or Shivering Touch, or whatever.

Hell, even if you are considering a damage-dealing mage (sub-optimal, but a very real archetype), a caster using Fiery Burst is a caster who is not using Twinned Maximized Empowered Repeating Orbs of Force, or Wings of Flurry, or whatever.

By the time you hit a high enough level to even take the damage-dealing reserve feats, if you're running out of spell slots as the day goes on, you're probably being frivolous with your magic and using two spells where one will do. The reserve feats are a nice idea and I suppose can be useful if you expect to have adventuring days far longer than is typical (my group runs about 5 encounters per day, which is close to the DMG standard), but most of them aren't really worth it by the time you can get them.

The exception, I would say, would be taking a reserve feat on something like a Shadowcaster, who really does run out of spells (mysteries, whatever) even as high as 8th or 9th level, since they can't devote all of their slots to the challenges of the day (and there aren't as many always-useful mysteries as there really should be. Some are better than others at being universally applicable, but I'm getting off track). Of course, Shadowcasters can't actually take reserve feats, so the point is moot, but what I'm getting at is that even someone with a generalist Wizard's slots per day is probably not going to run out of spell slots by the time they're high enough level to actually take reserve feats. I can maybe see a wizard (not an especially good one, but a wizard) taking the fire one or the acid one at 3rd level, but doing that ties up your precious 2nd level slot for the day, and you'll get smacked with rapidly diminishing returns as you level.

Fiery burst is not broken. The only ones that are actually worth the feat are Minor Shapeshift and Summon Elemental, and those have to be balanced against, say, taking metamagic feats or feats that get you into crazy prestige classes.

sadi
2009-10-18, 08:32 PM
Let's see, lousy range, lousy area of effect, reflex/evasion based damage for a feat that you have to take after level 1 I'm sure there are worse choices but probably much better ones. Unless you don't ever get to rest to get back spells or have many many encounters a day I don't see it being worth the feat slot.

Samb
2009-10-18, 08:35 PM
Umm I don't know wizards well enough, but how can they not run out of spell? Do they have a recharge method that I don't know about at level 7?

My group honestly thinks clerics are only good for healing (none of them have DMM), and wizards are there for damage. They are not min/maxers like me and I can't convince them that wizards do more than damage.

Anyway, my DM feels that in the long run fiery burst lasts forever, deals more damage in the long run, and you can still use that spell in reserve if you really need it.

My argument is: you have to prepare a fire spell when you could prepare something better, fire damage sucks, 30 foot range means people can charge you, needs a reflex save and SR. Basically what you guys said.

I felt really lonely in there, since someone said they would even sac a 9th level spell slot for that......Now I don't play wizards that much but I know they don't have that much 9th level slots and they can do much better than 9d6 at level 17.

Myrmex
2009-10-18, 08:35 PM
If your DM thinks anything short of Rainbow servant (or similar spell list expanding cheese) makes the Warmage powerful, either the rest of the party needs basic min-maxing, or it's hammergun time.

So if your group is having fun playing low powered games, you should ruin their fun?

I've never really understood this mentality.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-18, 08:36 PM
Wait. Had a thought rereading the OP...
You're playing a Psychic Warrior, ya? What about the Warmage? What's he saying about his reserve feat?

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 08:40 PM
Was I thinking of the force one?
Yeah force one is ranged attack. Acid is ranged touch. Thunder is the worst of the lot with a melee touch.

Siosilvar
2009-10-18, 08:41 PM
Umm I don't know wizards well enough, but how can they not run out of spell? Do they have a recharge method that I don't know about at level 7?

Having more spell slots than you could possibly need.

Using your level 7, the wizard has ~11 spell slots that really matter (counting 2nd to 4th and assuming a specialist). 3 spells/encounter (using the suggested 4/day) is usually plenty.

Knaight
2009-10-18, 08:42 PM
The warlock looks at these and laughs. And the warlock sucks on a pure power basis. One would think that a generic feat that let you sacrifice a spell slot to have an at-will spell 3, 4 levels lower would be good enough, but no, we get these.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 08:47 PM
Was I thinking of the force one?

Probably, Im pretty sure that the lightening one is reflex half. I use that one in one game simply because we routinely do 7-10hr sessions that take place over one or two in game days, and I burn through spells like candy. It's okish. I use it on stuff that isn't important enough to burn wand charges on...

Frankly, a couple of eternal wands would replace it very handily, if you've got any level of money at all. It's definitely not a broken feat...it's actually one of the weaker reserve feats, due to it being fire, having a crap range, and allowing a save.

I mean, seriously, you're getting 2d6 damage if you have a level 2 spell slot locked up. You can use a heavy crossbow with tumbling bolts for 1d10+2, and you get a crit chance to boot. Also, you get to stay slightly further back.

Very few of these are that good...Id honestly retrain out of them as you get higher levels, and get more spell slots per day.

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 08:50 PM
Probably, Im pretty sure that the lightening one is reflex half. I use that one in one game simply because we routinely do 7-10hr sessions that take place over one or two in game days, and I burn through spells like candy. It's okish. I use it on stuff that isn't important enough to burn wand charges on...

Frankly, a couple of eternal wands would replace it very handily, if you've got any level of money at all. It's definitely not a broken feat...it's actually one of the weaker reserve feats, due to it being fire, having a crap range, and allowing a save.

I mean, seriously, you're getting 2d6 damage if you have a level 2 spell slot locked up. You can use a heavy crossbow with tumbling bolts for 1d10+2, and you get a crit chance to boot. Also, you get to stay slightly further back.

Very few of these are that good...Id honestly retrain out of them as you get higher levels, and get more spell slots per day.
Storm bolt has no save.

Godskook
2009-10-18, 08:50 PM
Point out that a dragonfire adept can deal 9d6 in a cone or a line, can upgrade that to 11d6, and even worse, has an at-will nuke button(55d6) that does 2*HD backlash damage(*4, if not evil). Oh, the DFA gets an at-will ability to give himself 2*HD temporary HP. He's also considered underpowered compared to casters, still. This nuke? The DC is based on constitution, so a DFA built around it would have a really high con naturally.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-18, 08:59 PM
Very few of these are that good...Id honestly retrain out of them as you get higher levels, and get more spell slots per day.

Well... Minor Shapeshift is pretty much always useful (swift-action temp HP), the ranged direct-damage ones can be useful under certain circumstances, and Summon Elemental's great if you need a quick doorstop (most things will have to stop to kill the elemental), flanking buddy, possible cursed item handler, trap-springer, or target (Crusader stance/strike, Vampiric Dagger, for uncapped healing).

Those circumstances under which the direct-damage ones are useful?
1) Hordes of mooks (Endurance!)
2) When you don't have a proper de-trapper (locate the trap with Summon Elemental, melt it with Fiery Burst or Acidic Splatter)

But yeah; mostly, they're not worth the action.

Samb
2009-10-18, 09:05 PM
So if your group is having fun playing low powered games, you should ruin their fun?

I've never really understood this mentality.

It's not about fun. It's that the DM thought it was broken and was considering to ban it. I pointed out that I didn't think it was overpowered, if anything it was underpowered and should not have to be removed.

tyckspoon
2009-10-18, 09:09 PM
Point out that a dragonfire adept can deal 9d6 in a cone or a line, can upgrade that to 11d6, and even worse, has an at-will nuke button(55d6) that does 2*HD backlash damage(*4, if not evil). Oh, the DFA gets an at-will ability to give himself 2*HD temporary HP. He's also considered underpowered compared to casters, still. This nuke? The DC is based on constitution, so a DFA built around it would have a really high con naturally.

If they're thinking Fiery Burst is overpowered they'd probably have a heart attack about a Dragonfire Adept, seeing as how their primary attack is basically Cone of (Element) at-will. Plus the ability to employ it indiscriminately by using the Resist Elements invocation to make their allies immune to it. You know it's actually not that powerful, I know it's not, but there are actually a lot of people for whom trying to face this revelation is a paradigm shifting without a clutch.

If the OP actually wants to make a comparison, I would point out that his minimum damage roll is (or can be) better than the Fiery Burst's average. He didn't say what weapon he was using- 3d6 could be a Large Greatsword or Claws of the Beast- but if he's going two-hander:
20 Strength used two-handed is 7 damage, +1 Enhancement, +1 point of two-handed Power Attack yields a minimum of 13 damage. If the group doesn't think that's overpowered, then the Fiery Burst isn't either; it would just seem to be a double-standard that magic-based characters Aren't Allowed to have all-day abilities.

deuxhero
2009-10-18, 09:09 PM
So if your group is having fun playing low powered games, you should ruin their fun?

I've never really understood this mentality.

No, Firey burst is just that weak. Even in a low power game something is wrong if it is gamebreaking.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:12 PM
Ah, storms a touch, eh? Guess that makes it slightly better.

I could see elementals being useful trap fodder/speed bumps, but that really depends on the rest of the party. If you've got good tanks and a solid skillmonkey rogue, it's a lot less important. Without them, yeah, it's a decent choice. I tend to favor flight for avoiding melee though, wherever possible.

Healings decent. As for hordes of mooks...as you get higher, hordes of mooks get easier and easier to take down en masse. Plus, I find most DMs tend to use hordes of mooks only as a changeup.

The fire reserve feat is definitely not going to break even a low power campaign. However, it's unlikely that posts on the internet will change their mind. Thus, accept their words of "wisdom", retrain the feat to something interesting, and less obviously overpowered, then grab an eternal wand or two, and perhaps a low level pearl of power. Boom, you have some endurance blasting power, at a rather cheap price.

Samb
2009-10-18, 09:18 PM
From the cursory evaluation of reserve feats I would say some are pretty useful, just not the damage dealing ones, since...... it's not that much damage and you have better thing to do with you spell slots. That being said I do like borne aloft, clutch of earth, dimensional jaunt, minor shapechange, and summon elemental seems to be what I would consider the better ones.

Clutch of earth allows you to single handedily immobilize someone for no save.... I'm not saying that reserve feats are bad just not "broken" the way my whole group was making it out to be. Some are admittedly quite decent.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-18, 09:19 PM
The Side benefit is +1 caster level. Always useful.

deuxhero
2009-10-18, 09:27 PM
Side effect isn't the best term. +1 fire spell caster level is the better half unless you have a lot of inanimate objects that need to be set on fire.

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:32 PM
Ah, storms a touch, eh? Guess that makes it slightly better.Storm Bolt (elec) is a 20' line and autohits, no save.

Acidic Splatter is ranged touch. @ 5'*spell level
Clap of thunder is melee touch.
Fiery burst is 30' range 5' burst reflex half
Invisible Needle (force) is ranged attack @5'*spell level
Winter's blast is a 15' cone reflex half

Samb
2009-10-18, 09:35 PM
If the OP actually wants to make a comparison, I would point out that his minimum damage roll is (or can be) better than the Fiery Burst's average. He didn't say what weapon he was using- 3d6 could be a Large Greatsword or Claws of the Beast- but if he's going two-hander:
20 Strength used two-handed is 7 damage, +1 Enhancement, +1 point of two-handed Power Attack yields a minimum of 13 damage. If the group doesn't think that's overpowered, then the Fiery Burst isn't either; it would just seem to be a double-standard that magic-based characters Aren't Allowed to have all-day abilities.

My math was wrong. I have a STR 20, using a large deep crystal greatsword+1 and charging. So my basic hit on a charge is really more like 3d6+7.

I have done insane things like expansion+ leap attack+max power attack+ deep impact+ psionic lion charge+ spend 2PP for deep crystal weapon to net 6d6+22 as a touch attack. My DM doesn't even bat an eyelash....... I'm better at dealing damage, as it should be. Fiery Burst doesn't change that, I am not not threatened by warmages damage at all, a rogue's sneak attack at level 7 already beats it and that's without craven or TWF.

Myrmex
2009-10-18, 09:35 PM
It's not about fun. It's that the DM thought it was broken and was considering to ban it. I pointed out that I didn't think it was overpowered, if anything it was underpowered and should not have to be removed.

No, I was replying to the advice that you should attempt to break the game.


No, Firey burst is just that weak. Even in a low power game something is wrong if it is gamebreaking.

That's still no reason to encourage ruining some1s game.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:35 PM
Ah, thats it, thanks. So, Ive been letting people save for half on me Storm Bolt. Gotta fix that.

Range is a rather persistent problem with the damage spells, then. All of those result in me being far closer to the target than I'd like.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:37 PM
That's still no reason to encourage ruining some1s game.

Dude, if Firey Burst is ruining their game, then the problem isn't with firey burst, the problem is that the other players are deliberately trying to be ineffective. Even a completely non-optimized melee type can outdamage firey burst, you'd have to deliberately try to suck to not do so.

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:38 PM
Ah, thats it, thanks. So, Ive been letting people save for half on me Storm Bolt. Gotta fix that.

Range is a rather persistent problem with the damage spells, then. All of those result in me being far closer to the target than I'd like.Agreed, I don't like the range on them, but they're kind of fun to have around.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:47 PM
I'd say they're pretty perfectly balanced(as a whole, some ARE better)...the fact that we're grumbling over their weaknesses...but occasionally take them anyway, is a pretty good sign of balance imo.

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 09:48 PM
I'd say they're pretty perfectly balanced(as a whole, some ARE better)...the fact that we're grumbling over their weaknesses...but occasionally take them anyway, is a pretty good sign of balance imo.Yeah. There are many things that break 3.X, but reserve feats aren't them, particularly not the damage ones. :smalltongue:

Samb
2009-10-18, 10:49 PM
I'd say they're pretty perfectly balanced(as a whole, some ARE better)...the fact that we're grumbling over their weaknesses...but occasionally take them anyway, is a pretty good sign of balance imo.

I see the balance but my whole group can't seem to agree with me. I try to point out that any BSF would do more but they just focus on the "cast mini fireball all day long" part......

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 10:51 PM
I see the balance but my whole group can't seem to agree with me. I try to point out that any BSF would do more but they just focus on the "cast mini fireball all day long" part......Point out that DD isn't the greatest use of wizard power and that you don't actually get into enough fights generally for it to matter?

Samb
2009-10-18, 11:03 PM
Point out that DD isn't the greatest use of wizard power and that you don't actually get into enough fights generally for it to matter?
I can't even convince the cleric to get DMM what chance do I have convincing them that mages should not be blasting?

Kylarra
2009-10-18, 11:07 PM
I can't even convince the cleric to get DMM what chance do I have convincing them that mages should not be blasting?
Well, point out that it kind of sucks at blasting too? :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 11:15 PM
If they're fixated on blasting, pick something else. My DM now has an abiding hatred of Magic Missile, and I routinely carry around something in the neighborhood of thirty wands and scrolls. I'm a whopping level six.

Look at it this way. It's a mere 750 gold for a first level wand. That's enough to cast grease as many times as you will ever have encounters in a game. For things you will want to cast a couple times a day, pick up eternal wands. These only work 2x a day, so those focused on sheer volume of blasting per day may consider them less powerful. However, they never run dry on charges, and cost only a touch more than regular wands.

Use those to take care of all your utility spells for which CL does not matter. Fill your normal spell slots with your heavy nukes. If you've got excess cash, invest in +int items and pearls of power to increase the total of heavy nukes. This allows you to simply blast at full strength every single round, if you prefer.

If you still find yourself running dry on spells, there's a feat somewhere that lets you count your bonus spells as if your int modifier was one higher than it is.

Remember, the most powerful parts of this, the standard wands and pearls of power, are core items.

SoD
2009-10-18, 11:23 PM
A friend of mine tried to convince me that he wanted to play a...some sort of class that gets a few SLA's, and that he'd use the reserve feats to blast all day with unused SLA's. I tried to point out to him that reserve feats work off spells, but he was convinced that because spell-like abilities are, well, like spells, it should work from them as well.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 11:25 PM
Nah, fraid that doesn't work, due to the pretty specific wording in the reserve feats(see, Complete Mage). It's all keyed to spell level, too, so even if it were legal, it'd be less viable since the level of spell a wizard can have uncast is going to increase....SLAs just don't do that.

SoD
2009-10-18, 11:26 PM
Nah, fraid that doesn't work, due to the pretty specific wording in the reserve feats(see, Complete Mage). It's all keyed to spell level, too, so even if it were legal, it'd be less viable since the level of spell a wizard can have uncast is going to increase....SLAs just don't do that.

Pretty much what I told him.

Set
2009-10-18, 11:27 PM
You're both right.

It does completely change the nature of the game for mages, allowing them to have something to do every round and not be trapped by the 15 minute adventuring day.

It also does pretty much suck compared to what a halfway competent member of most other classes could be doing each round.

It's a bandaid, which is helpful to those who regard a casters resource management woes as a detriment to the rest of the party (forcing them to stop and rest when he's blown his wad) and kryptonite to those who regard that very resource-management subsystem as the only balancing factor of significance on already-overpowered casting classes.

Depending on which side of the philosophical divide you stand, Reserve feats can be; 1) just what was needed or 2) totally insane, like the designer missed the entire point.

Myrmex
2009-10-19, 12:16 AM
Dude, if Firey Burst is ruining their game, then the problem isn't with firey burst, the problem is that the other players are deliberately trying to be ineffective. Even a completely non-optimized melee type can outdamage firey burst, you'd have to deliberately try to suck to not do so.

The problem is how the DM perceives the actual limits to casters. It doesn't look like Fiery Burst is causing anything more than an argument.


Look at it this way. It's a mere 750 gold for a first level wand. That's enough to cast grease as many times as you will ever have encounters in a game.

Is 1 round of Grease really that worthwhile? I guess if you like trading actions & gp for enemy actions, it's ok....

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 12:25 AM
Is 1 round of Grease really that worthwhile? I guess if you like trading actions & gp for enemy actions, it's ok....

Assumeing an ally with sneak attack die goes after you, it's doing more damage than firey burst, the item it is being compared to.

Myrmex
2009-10-19, 12:32 AM
Assumeing an ally with sneak attack die goes after you, it's doing more damage than firey burst, the item it is being compared to.

Fiery Burst is a feat, and a wand of Grease is an item.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-19, 02:25 AM
Fiery burst was pretty fun for one of my players; a cleric of pelor with only two decent ability scores and no DMM.

Full plate armor + tower shield (non-proficient) and still able to deal 2d6 damage per round when she wasn't summoning walls of dogs

Yes, it was very underpowered compared to some of the scarey stuff I've seen on these boards, but it was fun.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 02:37 AM
Common consensus = underpowered.

Let's assume a level 3 caster. He can, by holding his scorching ray in reserve, blast for 2d6 at close range.

Average output: 7

Parity with: Fighter with greatsword and no Str bonus.

Level 5 caster,By holding that fireball, he gets 3d6 at close range.

Averate output: 10.5

Parity with: Fighter with greataxe +1 and 14 strength.

Level 7 caster. Hold that orb spell for 4d6.

Average output: 14

Parity with: Fighter with Greatsword +1 and an 18 strength (1 hit only).

All of the above assume that the target fails the reflex save, and the fighter hits one attack, on a charge.

Action economy is the only true battlefield economy. Most fights have 5 rounds of time to spend. Each action you take... When you announce your round's actions... You are spending 20% of your encounter currency. Is the output worth it here? No. At low levels, you get better effect out of a crossbow, for less resources.

Thespianus
2009-10-19, 06:18 AM
All of the above assume that the target fails the reflex save, and the fighter hits one attack, on a charge.

You are missing the 5' burst. In a perfect scenario, you can Fiery Burst 4 medium creatures. Most of the time, this won't be applicable, but more often than not you can hit at least 2 medium foes.

This doesn't make Fiery Burst the end all, be all ability, but it makes it suck a little less. ;)

Also, Spell Resistance doesn't get in the way, so it's a decent weapon against a Flesh Golem, for example.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 06:27 AM
You are missing the 5' burst. In a perfect scenario, you can Fiery Burst 4 medium creatures. Most of the time, this won't be applicable, but more often than not you can hit at least 2 medium foes. Providing one of them is your party member, I agree. Otherwise, the most common tactic is spreading to flank.


This doesn't make Fiery Burst the end all, be all ability, but it makes it suck a little less. ;)Note, the above encounter assumed 1 hit for the fiery burst, and 1 for the fighter. They're also horribly unoptimized melee that equals.


Also, Spell Resistance doesn't get in the way, so it's a decent weapon against a Flesh Golem, for example.
Same is true for Orb of Fire, which is a much better weapon. Or Haste, which allows the party to engage or bypass it better.

Thespianus
2009-10-19, 06:34 AM
Providing one of them is your party member, I agree. Otherwise, the most common tactic is spreading to flank.
Well, yeah, it depends on the scenario, ofcourse, but dungeon crawls can get kinda tight.


Note, the above encounter assumed 1 hit for the fiery burst, and 1 for the fighter. They're also horribly unoptimized melee that equals. True dat.


Same is true for Orb of Fire, which is a much better weapon. Or Haste, which allows the party to engage or bypass it better. But you can't Orb of Fire all day :)

But, yes, you're right. There are a lot of better options than Fiery Burst. I just like it because it goes boom in a fun way and fits in fine with a blasting Sorcerers pewpewpew-abilities.

Also, +1 caster level on Fire spells can make a difference.

Fluffles
2009-10-19, 08:23 AM
Umm I don't know wizards well enough, but how can they not run out of spell? Do they have a recharge method that I don't know about at level 7?

My group honestly thinks clerics are only good for healing (none of them have DMM), and wizards are there for damage. They are not min/maxers like me and I can't convince them that wizards do more than damage.

Anyway, my DM feels that in the long run fiery burst lasts forever, deals more damage in the long run, and you can still use that spell in reserve if you really need it.

My argument is: you have to prepare a fire spell when you could prepare something better, fire damage sucks, 30 foot range means people can charge you, needs a reflex save and SR. Basically what you guys said.

I felt really lonely in there, since someone said they would even sac a 9th level spell slot for that......Now I don't play wizards that much but I know they don't have that much 9th level slots and they can do much better than 9d6 at level 17.

Use Wish once you hit level 17. That'll shut them up about a puny little fire damage.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-19, 08:27 AM
Fiery Burst is a feat, and a wand of Grease is an item.

Anytime I can replace a feat with a 750GP item, I'll buy the item. In terms of pure damage, it's comparable, and it's fine in terms of action economy, since the spell can easily hamper multiple opponents.

Of course, there's also the bonus that he won't need to hold his heavy spell in reserve.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-19, 08:52 AM
My group honestly thinks clerics are only good for healing (none of them have DMM), and wizards are there for damage. They are not min/maxers like me and I can't convince them that wizards do more than damage.

Either lead through example or invite them to join the Test of Spite.



I felt really lonely in there, since someone said they would even sac a 9th level spell slot for that......Now I don't play wizards that much but I know they don't have that much 9th level slots and they can do much better than 9d6 at level 17.

Point out that one casting of Resist Energy makes their sacrifice of a 9th level spell slot completely useless.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-19, 08:55 AM
Storm bolt has no save.

Storm Bolt is Reflex Half.


Fiery Burst sucks because of Energy Resistance. The CL boost doesn't matter in the least if you are playing your Wizard right.

Finally, if they are so worried about the Wizard running out of spells/day, point out that a Wizard of appropriate level never runs out of spells before resting after 4 encounters. Usually happens around 7th (Focus Specialist), but can occur as late as 11th.

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 09:52 AM
Storm Bolt is Reflex Half.
Must be in the errata then, because it's not in my book. My bad though.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-19, 09:59 AM
Must be in the errata then, because it's not in my book. My bad though.

Yes it is.


Page 47 – Storm Bolt [Addition]
Under benefits, add “A
successful Reflex save halves
damage.”