Is someone NOT glad?

[Liwen]

Is there someone, anyone around the entire forums that is NOT glad to see Roy back? It's been a solid... 20 comics since he got resurrected now. yet I haven't laughed once at one of his jokes or actions yet. Even Durkon's screen time had more great moments of comedy since the resurrection. Roy is back yet somehow changed... Too focused on the main goal, not even time for good all sarcasm. it seems the entire book spent without Roy has grown the rest of the Order into such complex and wonderful characters that now Roy is failing behind.

What are your though about this?

[ThePhantasm]

I've never really found Roy funny on his own merit; he is funny in interaction with Elan and with Belkar mostly. He also plays more of the straight man to the goofy hijinks of the rest of the Order, so he isn't there so much to provide comic relief as he is to interact with the comedy in a somewhat sardonic, serious way.

[rewinn]

Is there someone, anyone around the entire forums that is NOT glad to see Roy back? It's been a solid... 20 comics since he got resurrected now. yet I haven't laughed once at one of his jokes or actions yet. Even Durkon's screen time had more great moments of comedy since the resurrection. Roy is back yet somehow changed... Too focused on the main goal, not even time for good all sarcasm. it seems the entire book spent without Roy has grown the rest of the Order into such complex and wonderful characters that now Roy is failing behind.

What are your though about this?
I'm glad Roy's back --- it's time.

But IMO you're identifying a common problem with comic novels --- as the plot advances, sometimes it overtakes the comedy.

Much of OOTS' earlier comedy came from a lack of character maturity, intra-team conflict etc. But as they grow up and get more focussed on the GOAL, it's harder to generate those little jokes.

This problem is far from unique to OOTS; for one example, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, while still brilliant, did not glow as brightly after the manic intensity of the first dozen chapters, as it stopped being a series of comedy bits and grew into something with a Plot.

I don't know if there's a solution to this problem, but the Giant is a pretty good writer.

[spargel]

Personally, I think the author should focus on comedy while still advancing the plot without making the story too serious.

[ThePhantasm]

Personally, I think the author should focus on comedy while still advancing the plot without making the story too serious.

This is an absolutely ridiculous opinion. :smalltongue:

[Puns de León]

Roy is one of my favourite characters, but that doesn't mean I laugh at most of what he says. He does most of the heavy lifting plot-wise, so the others are able to produce the jokes. He gets a few good shots in here and there, but I don't find his wry wit all that funny. It seems necessary, but the funnier and better Roy moments come when he is being a little more sincere or not trying to make a joke. Sometimes just by debriefing the team, or even simply by being there. To illustrate my point, here is my favourite Roy punchline: 460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html).

I like him a lot because he is admirable in the face of all the incompetence and setbacks he has to deal with; he's a great main character. Beleaguered, yet persevering and dutiful. Very sympathetic.

He hasn't been cranking out as many of the sarcastic quips since being resurrected because (a) he has matured and come to appreciate life a bit more after spending so much quality time with his dad (b) he's only been around for a while. Give it a little time. Belkar/Elan will drive him to justified exasperation soon enough.

[spargel]

This is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. :smalltongue:

No, an assertion would be if I left out the "Personally, I think" part.

[ThePhantasm]

*cough* Ok ok edited. "Opinion" then. :smalltongue:

[[TS] Shadow]

Nothing funny since he's come back? Dude, the "sex taint" scene was pure gold!

On topic, Roy isn't meant to be a "laugh out loud" character. He's there to provide contrast to the rest of the team, to be a moral compass, and to remind the readers what's really at stake. Let's just think for a moment. What if Roy, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius were all comic relief like Elan, Haley, and Belkar? A lot of the jokes would fall flat, because having too much comic relief in ANYTHING is bad. It stops being comedy and starts being a bunch of idiots doing crap that we don't care about (and without serious members, there indeed wouldn't be anything to care about.) If I wanted that, I'd watch Family Guy.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Plot > Comedy


Oots is a comic with a solid story. Yes it's funny most of the time. But you can't be funny all the time. Roy is the action hero coming back from the dead to set his score with the villain. There is no need for him to do cheesy comedy when you have Elan and the others doing it.

[Nimrod's Son]

the funnier and better Roy moments come when he is being a little more sincere or not trying to make a joke.
I know what you mean. I think Roy's finest hour was the hiring of Vaarsuvius in Origin; it's not exactly funny, as such, but Roy completely wipes the floor with V in that argument, and V is visibly rocked by it. It's quite a moment.

[Pilot3lite]

Maybe he hasn't said anything funny because here hasnt been that much activity since he came back. Another thing the deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) said he should refrain from "verbally lambasting his friends and foes". He might be following her advice.

[Berserk Monk]

Is there someone, anyone around the entire forums that is NOT glad to see Roy back? It's been a solid... 20 comics since he got resurrected now. yet I haven't laughed once at one of his jokes or actions yet. Even Durkon's screen time had more great moments of comedy since the resurrection. Roy is back yet somehow changed... Too focused on the main goal, not even time for good all sarcasm. it seems the entire book spent without Roy has grown the rest of the Order into such complex and wonderful characters that now Roy is failing behind.

What are your though about this?

It's been 20 comics! Roy hasn't even been in all of them. Also, Roy's never been a comical character like Elan or Belkar. He the mature, responsible character that cleans up the other's messes.

[moxproxy]

I know what you mean. I think Roy's finest hour was the hiring of Vaarsuvius in Origin; it's not exactly funny, as such, but Roy completely wipes the floor with V in that argument, and V is visibly rocked by it. It's quite a moment.

Totally! :)

:roy: "Did I stutter?" :smallbiggrin: Priceless!

[Freelance Henchman]

:roy: "Did I stutter?"

:roy: "Now get me a new table." :smallcool:

[Turkish Delight]

Personally, I think the author should focus on comedy while still advancing the plot without making the story too serious.

Personally, I think the comic needs to go even further on the path trod by Cerebus and ditch the humor entirely in favor of becoming a soapbox for bats**t crazy misogyny.

[Kaytara]

Just because this is a comedy(/drama) webcomic doesn't mean every character has to make you laugh, in my opinion. Different characters have different roles. To me, it would feel quite unnatural if Rich were clamouring to force every character to be funny without discrimination. Some characters are for that, and then some others are for something else. V, for example, hasn't really made me laugh in a long time (since I'm not one for Schadenfreude XD), but he's still my favourite character.

I do somewhat agree that the whole intra-team conflict thing has loosened up. According to Rich's commentaries, the last time that happened, he introduced Belkar's New Year's kiss and the ensuing prank war just to keep the comedic tension between V and Belkar. I'm curious what he'll come up with this time. I have a feeling V and Belkar will be the sources of tension again. Both of them have changed quite significantly and Roy (along with most of the team) wasn't around to witness it. There are bound to be rough edges, as we have seen with the whole Familiar issue.

[spargel]

Personally, I think the comic needs to go even further on the path trod by Cerebus and ditch the humor entirely in favor of becoming a soapbox for bats**t crazy misogyny.

If it can be done without so many plotholes and cliches, sure.

[Sewblon]

I've never really found Roy funny on his own merit; he is funny in interaction with Elan and with Belkar mostly. He also plays more of the straight man to the goofy hijinks of the rest of the Order, so he isn't there so much to provide comic relief as he is to interact with the comedy in a somewhat sardonic, serious way. What Phantasm said. I interpret Roy as Luke Skywalker to Belkar's Han Solo. Roy is well developed but not interesting in his own right, and Belkar is entertaining but not the heart of the story.

[theinsulabot]

dry humor is better then slap stick, and roy was a master of the deadpan snarker bit. but char develpment, takes precedence and roy is probably better for it. hope he hasn't gone completely straight man though

[Katana_Geldar]

Very often, Roy gives me the impression that he has to play the straight man, as no one else will.

[theinsulabot]

Very often, Roy gives me the impression that he has to play the straight man, as no one else will.

yeah but before he died he mixed that with snark in roughly equal doses, afterwords, other then the full frontal bit, he seems less interested.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I know what you mean. I think Roy's finest hour was the hiring of Vaarsuvius in Origin; it's not exactly funny, as such, but Roy completely wipes the floor with V in that argument, and V is visibly rocked by it. It's quite a moment.

...Please tell me what happened.

[Katana_Geldar]

V loses his temper when Roy calls him "snippy" and proceeds to blather on in a manner sort of similar to this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) but more angry and then blasts the table Roy is sitting at. Roy says V is hired and V refuses out of pride. Roy then floors V with demonstrating his knowledge of science and magic in a rather verbose manner similar to V himself.

:vaarsuvius: So...you need Fireball spells to toast the undead you expect to fight?
:roy: Did I stutter?
:vaarsuvius: A pleasure to serve under you, sir.
:roy: Welcome aboard. Now get me another table.

[Kaytara]

...Please tell me what happened. I think you deserve a more complete account. :D


:roy: Do you have any adventuring experience?
:vaarsuvius: Up until this point, I have been focusing on pure research, rather than application.
:roy: Oh! Welcome to the profession. So, what made you decide to apply to be an adventurer?
:vaarsuvius: Based on this interview, I'm beginning to think self-loathing is a likely culprit.
:roy: Do you have any skills that might be particularly useful on this mission?
:vaarsuvius: "Useful"?
:vaarsuvius: Well, let us see, I am quite a good gardener, and I have impeccable table manners and... hmm... Oh yes, I almost forgot, I am capable of rearranging the fundamental building blocks of the universe in under six seconds, with enough time left to move 30 feet. Is that quite useful enough for you?
:roy: Hey, buddy, no need to get snippy here.
:vaarsuvius: "Snippy"? I am not some acne-covered teenager applying for a job flipping burgers! I am capable of manipulating matter and energy on a subatomic level by speaking. A mere flick of my finger is sufficient to alter the gravitational pull of the planet. I shelve physics texts under "Fiction" in my personal library. I consider the Laws of Thermodynamics to be loose guidelines, at best.
:vaarsuvius: In short, I am grasping the reins of the universe's carriage, and every morning I wake up, I look to the heavens, and shout, "Giddy up, boy!"
:vaarsuvius: You may never grasp the complexities of what I do, but at least have the common courtesy to feign something other than slack-jawed oblivion in my presence.
:vaarsuvius: I, sir, am a wizard, and I break more natural laws before breakfast than of which you are even aware. *CRACK*
:vaarsuvius: huff huff huff
:roy: All done?
:vaarsuvius: ...
:vaarsuvius:Yes.
:roy: You're hired.
:vaarsuvius: Bah!! You are clearly only hiring me because I intimidated you intellectually, to the point where your masculine pride requires you to establish your dominance over my superior mind.
:roy: Maybe.
:roy: Or maybe I'm hiring you because I require the creation of a managed spherical energy release with a thermal signature no less than 1850° Kelvin, which can be manifested at specific X, Y, and Z coordinates from verbal cues.
:roy: I require this precise temperature because it is the minimum level at which necrotized epidermis has been proven to combust.... and I have reason to believe that my mission will require the incapacitation of multiple post-organic hostiles.
:vaarsuvius: So... you need Fireball spells to toast the undead you expect to fight?
:roy: Did I stutter?
:vaarsuvius: A pleasure to serve under you, sir.
:roy: Welcome aboard. Now get me a new table.

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, not all of us are willing to transcribe THAT much :smallannoyed:

[Lvl45DM!]

you mucked up the last two smilies...V just told roy to replace the table V smashed...makes v look alot cooler

[Kaytara]

Whooops. ^^; *runs off to edit*

[HandofShadows]

I for one am very happy to see Roy back. He is what gives the strip it's balance and drive.

[Eran of Arcadia]

Despite what David Brent said, "straight man" =/= "dead weight". Roy has a part to play in the comedy of the Order.

[Freshmeat]

I like Roy's sarcastic and witty remarks and find him to be one of the funniest characters in the comic. Of course, since he's only been recently resurrected he hasn't had many opportunities to do something funny, so I'm willing to wait a while before passing judgement. Even if the story is more plot-centric nowadays, I don't doubt for a second that Roy will still get a few good lines here and there.


Shadow;7150457']On topic, Roy isn't meant to be a "laugh out loud" character. He's there to provide contrast to the rest of the team, to be a moral compass, and to remind the readers what's really at stake. Let's just think for a moment. What if Roy, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius were all comic relief like Elan, Haley, and Belkar?

I can see people make a case for Belkar and Elan where comic relief is concerned, but I find Haley to be one of the most drama-driven characters in the entire comic.

[Querzis]

Roy isnt meant to be funny (even though hes still often hilarious). Roy is meant to be awesome, cool, smart, admirable and badass. Look, the first few strips of this comic were entertaining but I would have never read the entire comic if Roy, V or Durkon werent there. Belkar and Elan are kinda funny, I laughed often at their jokes but they are still my least favorite character in the Order (Elan being lower then Belkar since at least Belkar is also badass).

You can find funny things everywhere on the internet if you want. But you cant find awesome characters like Roy, V, O-chul or Shojo everywhere and you cant find a comic written by Rich Burlew and his absolutely amazing writing style everywhere either. By the way:


Personally, I think the author should focus on comedy while still advancing the plot without making the story too serious.

I nominate this as the most ridiculous opinion of the year.

[Freelance Henchman]

I enjoyed the comics about Roy's time in Celestia immensely. The moment where he plays with the spirit of his baby brother was very touching, and I also liked the various characters he met (Grandpa Eugene Greenhilt, Mom Greenhilt, and even Roy's Archon was really funny). That said, OOTS is in the end Roy's story, not Xykon's, not Belkar's, ROY is the protagonist. He HAD to return and I'm glad he did. He hasn't really done much so far, but then he just got frickin resurrected and likely needs some adjustment time to all the changes that happened meanwhile.

[jidasfire]

Personally, I wish we'd see more of Roy as he came across in Origin of the PCs. He was a smartass, sure, but he always stood up for the little guy and he used his brain as much as his sword. He took it on himself to help his teammates grow as people, he showed respect for NPCs and even monsters who weren't actively evil. In short, he was heroic, admirable, and still funny.

In the comic, I find Roy often comes across as arrogant, petulant, and not half as clever as he thinks he is. Yes, he usually does the right thing in the end, but not before levying an unnecessary barrage of insults out, and he still manages to ignore people and plot points out of impatience. Plus, I was bothered by his recent willingness to let Belkar die, despite defending him in the past. What happened to standing up for your teammates?

I'm not saying I want Roy to be flawless, or to stop making any sorts of jokes. I just want to see the intellect and compassion that separates him from the big, dumb fighters he hates so much show through a little more.

[Scarlet Knight]

Roy reminds me of George Burns of Burns & Allen. He gets off funny, deadpan lines while trying to remain sane in a world of crazies. So much of what Elan, Belkar, & the rest do is funnier with his exasperation.

It goes to show why the straight man always gets top billing...:smallsmile:

[rewinn]

Very often, Roy gives me the impression that he has to play the straight man, as no one else will.

Sometimes V plays the straight man.

Ambiguously.

[Sewblon]

I enjoyed the comics about Roy's time in Celestia immensely. The moment where he plays with the spirit of his baby brother was very touching, and I also liked the various characters he met (Grandpa Eugene Greenhilt, Mom Greenhilt, and even Roy's Archon was really funny). That said, OOTS is in the end Roy's story, not Xykon's, not Belkar's, ROY is the protagonist. He HAD to return and I'm glad he did. He hasn't really done much so far, but then he just got frickin resurrected and likely needs some adjustment time to all the changes that happened meanwhile. OOTS used to be Roy's story, but I don't interpret that as the case anymore. Haley is the most complex, drama-driven character at the moment, V is working hardest to overcome his/her flaws, and Belkar and Durkon are the funniest characters by far. Roy ensures that the plot shows up on schedule, but that is his only purpose at the moment.
Personally, I wish we'd see more of Roy as he came across in Origin of the PCs. He was a smartass, sure, but he always stood up for the little guy and he used his brain as much as his sword. He took it on himself to help his teammates grow as people, he showed respect for NPCs and even monsters who weren't actively evil. In short, he was heroic, admirable, and still funny.

In the comic, I find Roy often comes across as arrogant, petulant, and not half as clever as he thinks he is. Yes, he usually does the right thing in the end, but not before levying an unnecessary barrage of insults out, and he still manages to ignore people and plot points out of impatience. Plus, I was bothered by his recent willingness to let Belkar die, despite defending him in the past. What happened to standing up for your teammates?

I'm not saying I want Roy to be flawless, or to stop making any sorts of jokes. I just want to see the intellect and compassion that separates him from the big, dumb fighters he hates so much show through a little more.
This is a good point too. I think Roy lost his edge as a character around when he realized that he had been dead for 3 months, which is kind of understandable. For whatever reason the characters in OOTS who seem more like real people make less of an impression on me.

[hamishspence]

That might be due to all the time Roy has spent "offscreen".

I think it was much more "Roy's story", in Paladin Blues, and War & XPs.

[Random832]

Plus, I was bothered by his recent willingness to let Belkar die, despite defending him in the past. What happened to standing up for your teammates?

Item 1: Belkar is evil. Not just in a "pings on the paladin-dar" sense, but in the sense that he actively kills people for fun, and it's all Roy can do to get him to mostly only kill evil people for fun.
Item 2: You Can't Fight Fate (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouCantFightFate). Belkar's death was the subject of a prophecy, and Roy has no idea what will cause it, and if we can learn anything from mythology it is that if he does try to blindly flail around for a way to prevent it, whatever he does to prevent it will end up being what kills him.

[Darakonis]

Is there someone, anyone around the entire forums that is NOT glad to see Roy back?

Me.

I started off the comic liking Roy, but my like gradually transformed into dislike, until I began to dislike him ever more with each passing strip. I believe my dislike for Roy reached its peak during the Miko era.

The one joy that Roy brought me was when bad things would happen to him. His attitude, which made me otherwise dislike him, made him the most amusing character to have befall ill fortune.

I don't see Roy as heroic. He left Elan behind, and I guess that's something that has always stuck with me. I find Elan, the dashing swordsman who crashes through the window to same his damsel in distress, to be more heroic than Roy.

I don't see Roy as badass. O-Chul is, without question, the most badass character, and Roy can't come close to it. Belkar, V, Xykon... just a few of the characters more badass than Roy.

I don't see Roy as funny (in and of himself). Insulting his team mates? Xykon does a better job at that.

I don't see Roy as fighting for a good cause. To me, it seems that Roy's quest to kill Xykon has become a personal vendetta. Xykon mopped the floor with him, Roy's ego is hurting, Roy wants revenge. I just can't believe his motivation is just and true.

When I read the strip where Roy died, I actually cheered out loud.

But then... Roy's time in the afterlife made me like him again. As a character, not as someone who befalls misfortune. I don't know why -- maybe because all the stuff that made me dislike him was left behind in the mortal world. But I enjoyed reading Roy's afterlife strips.

Now that he's resurrected, I'm concerned that I'm going to start disliking him again... I was sort of hoping he would remain in the afterlife until the end of the comic, then do a Darth Vader/Yoda/Kenobi-esque appearance as a ghost at the end, congratulating his team on a job well done.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I was kind of hoping to see a little more of Eugene before Roy got raised. That guy's a hilarious dirty oldman.

[Water-Smurf]

Think of Cerebus. The comic's gotten more serious, and I personally like it that way. It still has its tones of comedy, but the characters are actually growing up and taking their situation seriously. It's an improvement on funny but meaningless comedy.

[Almaseti]

While Roy hasn't made me laugh, I enjoy seeing him anyway. I'm not sure how funny he can be without sarcasm, and I'll admit that the latest strip was more lame than anything else (that was not a punchline-worthy quip) but Roy brings good things in other ways, and the story doesn't have to be funny to be fun.

[Draz74]

Yeah ... I will never understand you people who think Roy is "a good character, but just not meant to be the funny one; he's the straight man." Most of my favorite punch lines in the comic come from Roy.

:roy: Looks like another all-nighter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html)
:roy: *skunk* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0146.html)
:roy: Your approval fills me with shame. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html)
:roy: Apparently, getting your ass kicked is now a part of this complete breakfast. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html)
:roy: So, I've met someone who is everything I thought I wanted, and I find that I really just want to kick her in the head. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html)
:roy: You know, technically, it's now ok for me to hit a girl. I'm just saying. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0236.html)
:roy: Just curious, do you get XP for killing this dramatic moment? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html)
:roy: Really? 'Cuz right now I feel like he's been too soft on crime. Yours, specifically. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html)
:roy: Oh, I'm sorry, is NOW a good time for battering things into submission? I just want to be clear on the rules here, since I'm just a big dumb fighter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)

[Holyhatred]

Roy carries the team without him the only interesting plots were those concerning team evil.

[Jackson]

To me, it seems that Roy's quest to kill Xykon has become a personal vendetta. Xykon mopped the floor with him, Roy's ego is hurting, Roy wants revenge. I just can't believe his motivation is just and true.
That's the opposite of the case. He started out with the goal of killing Xykon as a personal vendetta (which he achieved) and continued to pursue that goal because of all the reasons why it extended beyond his family's personal vendetta. It's still cool to dislike Roy, but you have to admit that it's because of your own personal vendetta, and not because of how he'd been written.

In any case, I think the latest comic was a good indication of why Roy's still a valuable member of the (his) team.

[Katana_Geldar]

Like here, when he tells his Dad off and still agrees to destroy Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html)

[Kaytara]

In any case, I think the latest comic was a good indication of why Roy's still a valuable member of the (his) team.

Yep... Plan B: "Let the Meat Shield Go First" :smalltongue:

[Katana_Geldar]

I thought that was when they set somehting on fire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, #686 shows Roy still is heroic...

[Freelance Henchman]

I'm really looking forward to Roy using Eugene's caster-pwning move to pwn a caster.

[Jackson]

Yep... Plan B: "Let the Meat Shield Go First" :smalltongue:
I thought that was plan A. Or is that running away?

[Darakonis]

That's the opposite of the case. He started out with the goal of killing Xykon as a personal vendetta (which he achieved) and continued to pursue that goal because of all the reasons why it extended beyond his family's personal vendetta. It's still cool to dislike Roy, but you have to admit that it's because of your own personal vendetta, and not because of how he'd been written.

In any case, I think the latest comic was a good indication of why Roy's still a valuable member of the (his) team.

Well, Roy's initial goal was not a personal vendetta of his -- it was his father's personal vendetta. Xykon had no idea who Roy was -- can't get much less personal than that. In fact, Roy was pretty upset at the fact that Xykon had no idea who he was, and this seemed to be the seed for his own personal vendetta with Xykon.

I admit that my opinion of Roy isn't free of bias, but my bias is based precisely on how Roy was written -- what else can it be based on? I didn't start reading the comic and decide, "hey, I'm gonna try to hate this Roy guy." Roy wanted to abandon Elan -- I'm not making that up, that's a fact. That's how Rich wrote it, just as he wrote any number of other actions/behaviors on Roy's part that have colored my opinion of Roy.

The writer writes -- it is up to the reader to interpret that writing however he/she feels. I'm not criticizing Rich's writing -- I think it's great to have characters with flaws. If Roy didn't have those flaws, he would be a boring character. Roy is an interesting character; I just don't find him to be a likable character. I don't want him written out of the comic -- but I'm routing for Xykon to beat him again.

Roy's worth as a member of the party and a character in the story goes without question -- he is definitely a valuable member of his team; even if we ignore his combat prowess, he was a great leader. And Roy is the glue that holds the plot threads together and drives the story onward.

But I feel that he could have continued to fulfill those purposes while in the afterlife.

[Roderick_BR]

No. I'm not. I mean, I'm NOT not glad. It was about time he came back to help put the team together, and they can finally move the plot along.
And I agree, he's not "funny" by himself, but with his interaction with the others. Me? I laughed plenty since his return, and even before he died, while he was dead... etc.

[EndlessWrath]

Is there someone, anyone around the entire forums that is NOT glad to see Roy back? It's been a solid... 20 comics since he got resurrected now. yet I haven't laughed once at one of his jokes or actions yet. Even Durkon's screen time had more great moments of comedy since the resurrection. Roy is back yet somehow changed... Too focused on the main goal, not even time for good all sarcasm. it seems the entire book spent without Roy has grown the rest of the Order into such complex and wonderful characters that now Roy is failing behind.

What are your though about this?

Roy seems to be the one who keeps the story on track. Though he can be funny, he also is the serious aspect of it. His story was developed before others were, and I think they're catching up. He had this whole story development in heaven and I think his change is he's more focused on saving the world and less on fulfilling his blood oath (although they both kinda fall upon each other.). Roy is complex, far more than we think about. We know more about his family than Elans, we know more about his background than Belkar, and just in general has improved. Less time for sarcasm, yeah, but remember the main goal is also part of his personal goal, and also...
Not all good characters have to be funny.

He's developed, and I'm glad he's back:
1) because I'm glad the story is back on track and the group is back together.
2) I sorely missed roy, and I think now the OotS has a fighting chance. This story line is a big deal and its unfolding in an interesting manner.

-Wrath

[baf]

Personally, I think the author should focus on comedy while still advancing the plot without making the story too serious.

I think the author should make the story too serious.

Do you hear me, Rich? Too serious. TOO SERIOUS. That's what you should be doing.

[theinsulabot]

I think the author should make the story too serious.

Do you hear me, Rich? Too serious. TOO SERIOUS. That's what you should be doing.

Y SO SERIOUS?

[Freelance Henchman]

I think the author should make the story too serious.

Do you hear me, Rich? Too serious. TOO SERIOUS. That's what you should be doing.

Not sure if serious.

[Random832]

Y SO SERIOUS?
Sirius (http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/Sirius.html)? Or maybe (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/sirius.html)... Surely not (http://www.sirius.com/). (don't call me... (http://www.shirley-ma.gov/)) :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

Roy's more than just a straight man for the party; he's a straight man for the entire world. He's a sensible individual in a madcap world, trying to work with some very silly people, and it gets him down. His worst moments are when the frustration gets to him (as it would anyone, really - consider how strange and frustrating Roy's life is on a daily basis!), and his best are those times when he manages to accept his place in the story as a hero. I don't just think he keeps things serious, he keeps things grounded, and that's quite necessary.

[Jackson]

I admit that my opinion of Roy isn't free of bias, but my bias is based precisely on how Roy was written -- what else can it be based on? I didn't start reading the comic and decide, "hey, I'm gonna try to hate this Roy guy." Roy wanted to abandon Elan -- I'm not making that up, that's a fact. That's how Rich wrote it, just as he wrote any number of other actions/behaviors on Roy's part that have colored my opinion of Roy.
You'll note I didn't mention Roy's abandoning Elan or dispute that in any way. Though it was nice of you to clear that up for me if you thought I was confused.

However, since you chose to bring it up again, it's worth noting that Roy's decision to abandon Elan lead to character growth, which lead to Roy becoming the type of person who would never do that again. This is spelled out by the Deva in one of the afterlife strips. However, you choose to ignore that character growth and only pay attention to the incident that sparked it. That is what I mean when I say you're basing your statements on your personal feelings rather than on the text. He's a different character than he was, and you're not taking note of that, instead treating him as a static character. Would he be a nicer person if he hadn't abandoned Elan to begin with? Sure. Is it likely he'll ever do it again? No.


Roy's worth as a member of the party and a character in the story goes without question -- he is definitely a valuable member of his team; even if we ignore his combat prowess, he was a great leader. And Roy is the glue that holds the plot threads together and drives the story onward.

But I feel that he could have continued to fulfill those purposes while in the afterlife.
See, that second paragraph (of the two quoted) directly contradicts what you wrote in the first one. He couldn't have been a great leader, a skilled combatant, a valuable party member, or the glue that holds the party and plot together, if he was an incorporeal being with no way of contacting his teammates. In your earlier post you imagined him coming back towards the end as an Obi Wan-like ghost; it should be noted what role, exactly, Obi Wan played in those films. He was not remotely analogous to Roy, even while alive.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be interesting to kill the Hero off midway through the story and keep him dead, letting his teammates accomplish everything without him. I'm just saying that that wouldn't be a very logical continuation of the story that lead up to him dieing, and it also wouldn't allow him to play the roles you've admitted he plays well.

Also, I'd like to point out that, in terms of dramatic heroics, jumping onto the back of a slaver vehicle to free a group of captured strangers would actually rank higher than jumping through a window to save the woman you love. As would challenging the most powerful magic user in the world to single combat in an attempt to turn the course of a battle, actually. There's a bit more risk involved and less personally at stake, and more of a payoff for others, you see.

All that said, it's not as if Roy's my favorite character (I don't really tend to have favorite characters). I just don't think you were evaluating him based on the text. And that's cool; it's not as though you can't. But that gives me the opportunity to contest.

[Darakonis]

You'll note I didn't mention Roy's abandoning Elan or dispute that in any way. Though it was nice of you to clear that up for me if you thought I was confused.
Let's keep this civil. There's no need for sarcasm. I have no qualms with you, and I apologize if anything I said seemed like a personal attack -- it was not intended that way.


However, since you chose to bring it up again, it's worth noting that Roy's decision to abandon Elan lead to character growth, which lead to Roy becoming the type of person who would never do that again. This is spelled out by the Deva in one of the afterlife strips. However, you choose to ignore that character growth and only pay attention to the incident that sparked it. That is what I mean when I say you're basing your statements on your personal feelings rather than on the text. He's a different character than he was, and you're not taking note of that, instead treating him as a static character. Would he be a nicer person if he hadn't abandoned Elan to begin with? Sure. Is it likely he'll ever do it again? No.

Perhaps you haven't read my earlier post in this thread, but I did, in fact, mention that I began to like Roy again during his sojourn in the afterlife. I'm not sure why; possibly due to the reason you outlined above. All I know is that I liked afterlife Roy, and I disliked pre-afterlife Roy. I don't want to dislike Roy, and I question whether what I liked about afterlife Roy will be carried over into post-afterlife Roy.

You say that Roy is a different character now -- I believe that is still to be seen. I don't know for certain that he won't fall back into his old ways, because he hasn't been in enough strips yet as a flesh-mortal. Words are meaningless -- action is what reveals character.


See, that second paragraph (of the two quoted) directly contradicts what you wrote in the first one. He couldn't have been a great leader, a skilled combatant, a valuable party member, or the glue that holds the party and plot together, if he was an incorporeal being with no way of contacting his teammates. In your earlier post you imagined him coming back towards the end as an Obi Wan-like ghost; it should be noted what role, exactly, Obi Wan played in those films. He was not remotely analogous to Roy, even while alive.

I still feel he could have fulfilled those purposes (all but the combat-oriented one). In a close-knit group of comrades, if one comrade falls, that will strengthen the resolve of the others like nothing else. Haley, who tried to fill Roy's shoes as leader, turned to him in her times of need for strength. Roy, as a symbol, as a memory, was able to continue bolstering his teammates, continue to give them purpose, direction.

And I did not imply any similarity between Roy and Obi Wan/Vader/Yoda -- take it at face value; I was simply referring to the way they appeared as ghosts at the end.


Also, I'd like to point out that, in terms of dramatic heroics, jumping onto the back of a slaver vehicle to free a group of captured strangers would actually rank higher than jumping through a window to save the woman you love. As would challenging the most powerful magic user in the world to single combat in an attempt to turn the course of a battle, actually. There's a bit more risk involved and less personally at stake, and more of a payoff for others, you see.

My previous post about heroics was written before I read 686. I was pleased to see Roy's actions in this new comic. It's definitely promising -- as I mentioned earlier, actions speak louder than words.

As for Roy trying to solo Xykon... There's a fine line between heroics and stupidity. Roy is not a stupid character, and I can understand that in the heat of the moment he didn't realize how silly jumping onto that flying dragon was, so I don't think any less of Roy because of the incident, but I certainly do not commend him for it. There's nothing heroic about a pointless death.


I just don't think you were evaluating him based on the text. And that's cool; it's not as though you can't. But that gives me the opportunity to contest.

I don't like eating cheese, even though plenty of people do. I don't think there's anything wrong with cheese; I'm glad it exists, because I like the effect it has on other foods.

I didn't like Roy, even though plenty of people did. I don't think there's anything wrong with Roy; I'm glad he exists, because I like the effect he has on the other characters and the plot.

I don't understand how you can say I'm not evaluating him based on the text. I feel as though you're suggesting that I'm evaluating him based on some made-up fantasy in my own imagination. It's just a matter of personal taste -- I don't like the flavor of Roy. He leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Invariably, not everyone will like every character an author creates, just as invariably, there is no person in this world that is not disliked by anyone. Authors try to create characters with wide appeal -- but wide appeal is not absolute appeal.

[spargel]

You say that Roy is a different character now -- I believe that is still to be seen. I don't know for certain that he won't fall back into his old ways, because he hasn't been in enough strips yet as a flesh-mortal. Words are meaningless -- action is what reveals character.


Roy abandons Elan.

Roy takes a hit for Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html)

[Herald Alberich]

Roy's worth as a member of the party and a character in the story goes without question -- he is definitely a valuable member of his team; even if we ignore his combat prowess, he was a great leader. And Roy is the glue that holds the plot threads together and drives the story onward.

But I feel that he could have continued to fulfill those purposes while in the afterlife.

You think? I don't see how.

Obviously, he can't swing a sword or lead the party while dead, so those purposes are out. And the only main-plot progress the team made while he was dead was to reunite and raise him, and look how long that took!

As for afterlife-Roy, all he did was gain some character development, give us an interesting view of Stickverse Celestia, and learn a nifty sword move that wouldn't do him a speck of good if he hadn't been raised. Sure, he followed the others around sometimes, but he couldn't do a thing to affect them or the Material Plane as a ghost, so holding plot reins and driving the story is out too.

Now that he's alive, he can actually put that character development (and sword move) to use. I for one am interested to see how it plays out.

Edit: Totally missed Page 3. Ok, you think he would have more value as a symbol than as an actual living leader. Hmm, that's interesting. Martyrs do have a way of galvanizing their followers, but ... no, I don't see it.

As I said, the only main-plot progress made while Roy was dead was entirely focused on bringing him back. I can't see the Order just giving up on that when it's so easy to accomplish and trying to fight Xykon without him. No one else has the Lawful Good drive he does to oppose the lich directly (excepting Durkon, and he doesn't have enough Charisma to lead). Carrying on in his memory would not give them that sense of purpose.

[Spiky]

Roy choosing to abandon Elan was a joke. (and led to character development and plotlines) Apparently not everyone likes all of the types of humor displayed in OOTS. Not sure why that's a big deal.

I happen to like Roy's humor as much or more than any other character's. Probably because I am similar to Roy with a very dry sense of humor. On the other end of the spectrum, I recognize Elan's humor as funny and may laugh at it, but it also annoys me. That makes me appreciate Roy's abusive comedy all the more, because I want to leave Elan behind sometimes, too.

What bothers me about the Roy-haters on this forum is they ignore scenes where Roy does what they want, esp those where he corrects his mistakes. What kind of bias is that? Blind? Really seems to be a bullying attitude, where someone must be hated, regardless of the facts. (like the fact of the existence of several antagonists in OOTS, wouldn't they be prime fodder for such hatred?) There are similar groups of forumites who irrationally hate Belkar or V, as well. It just doesn't make sense.

[Kaytara]

As for afterlife-Roy, all he did was gain some character development, give us an interesting view of Stickverse Celestia, and learn a nifty sword move that wouldn't do him a speck of good if he hadn't been raised. Sure, he followed the others around sometimes, but he couldn't do a thing to affect them or the Material Plane as a ghost, so holding plot reins and driving the story is out too.

Not really. Speak With Dead is a cleric spell. It would have been completely easy to incorporate it into the story as a means of contacting Roy if he was to stay dead forever.

However, I don't think a dead Roy could have really remained an important character in his own right, either. That would have just been difficult and awkward to pull off, since he wouldn't be able to directly participate in about 99% of what the Order would have been doing.


What bothers me about the Roy-haters on this forum is they ignore scenes where Roy does what they want, esp those where he corrects his mistakes. What kind of bias is that? Blind? Really seems to be a bullying attitude, where someone must be hated, regardless of the facts. (like the fact of the existence of several antagonists in OOTS, wouldn't they be prime fodder for such hatred?) There are similar groups of forumites who irrationally hate Belkar or V, as well. It just doesn't make sense.

While there undoubtedly are Roy-haters here (and there CERTAINLY Belkar and V-haters, and I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't make much sense), what does that have to do with the thread here? I don't see anyone actively hating Roy. Darakonis seems to dislike him, at worst, and even then not at all times.

For my part, I agree with Darakonis on a certain level. Every now and then I reread a strip where Roy is being snippy and downright mean at his friends for no reason at all other than seemingly to show off his witty non-stupid-fighter ability to come up with sarcastic remarks. Like that time when he first scries on Durkon, Elan and V, sees them broken and stressed about his death, and then proceeds to moan about how they've had the gall to start a side quest without him. And I'm just reminded what an un-nice guy he can sometimes be, and I'm glad, because I love it when characters are somewhat unlikeable - doesn't that make them more like real people? (It's probably the thing about V's fleet arc that gradually turned me into a fan of him.)

So, objectively, I recognise Roy's deficiencies. It just doesn't bother me. But then, NONE of the characters in the comic do, not even hate-fodder like Celia or Miko or Belkar or V. It's probably just my own thing, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people look at the same picture and DO feel a negative response. A matter of taste, as Darakonis said.

[Super_slash2]

He left Elan at a time when Elan was ranking higher than him in terms of usefulness, meant he actually saw what he was meant to do. He left Elan out of disgust with him but he realized that it wasn't what his principles were about. Please use some context. The fact that he should have realized that the fate of his friend was more important than his own ego is WHY he went back.

Roy being snarky is just Roy being snarky. He insults people but he backs up his true intentions with actual actions too. For example, when he hit Miko off of Hinjo. At that point, he was parroting what Hinjo said earlier. But this came IMMEDIATELY after saving his life. There are probably more examples of this (I'm not going to trawl the entire archive) but confusing his words with his actions and motives isn't a good analysis of the character. While it is true he says things specifically to hurt people, he doesn't intend for any lasting harm - which you can see from the fact that he usually insults on a event-by-event basis, as opposed to flat-out mocking them without provocation. The only person he does that to is Elan and we saw how he actually felt about him.

Roy is just one more character in the strip, actually having emotions and reactions like people in real-life would. Contrary to popular opinion, people do not always do what their principles dictate or what would be most logical or efficient. They also do it based on their emotions, experiences, fears and best of all, what they expect to happen (as opposed to what actually would). Roy jumped on the back of the dragon not because he though -

Hmmm, I could jump on the dragon, risk death and have a 1/100 chance of kiling him. Let's do it.

But what he probably thought was -

If I don't hit him now and disable him, noone else can. I have the sword, I have the responsibility and even if he takes me down, I'll get to him first.

I inferred that what his actions, words and motives. What you infer is at your discretion but I'd probably tell you you were wrong if you got something negative out of that.

People think that characters in a story, especially one with a fourth wall, somehow use perfect reasoning. And if they did, what Roy did would have been monumentally stupid. But people are not like that in real-life and they're not here.

I think what gave the most depth to his character was what he said to Celia in ghost-form, when he knew he couldn't hear or feel him, in #610. And not because he was looking out for Celia because they're an item. But because it summarized just how much thought he must have to give to things and how he realized the importance of the quest, even if people die in the process. Basically, a sign that he evolved more as a fighter and leader.

Coincidentally, #610 is one of my favourite comics of all so far.

[Asta Kask]

I thought that was plan A. Or is that running away?

Plan 'A' is when


And Roy's spirit, raging for revenge,
With an archon by his side come hot from Celestia,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[Scarlet Knight]

Good plan...

[Kaytara]

He left Elan at a time when Elan was ranking higher than him in terms of usefulness, meant he actually saw what he was meant to do. He left Elan out of disgust with him but he realized that it wasn't what his principles were about. Please use some context. The fact that he should have realized that the fate of his friend was more important than his own ego is WHY he went back. .... (snip)

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, though. You just did a great job of describing just how Roy is still Lawful Good and a plausible character. None of that changes that he has bad sides (which doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with him having bad sides, as I said earlier, I think that makes him into a more realistic character), after all, the deva herself pointed Roy's snarkiness as something negative and undesirable in a LG person, rather than just a "harmless" personality quirk. The fact that Roy insults people but still saves them when it matters doesn't make the insults any less real.

I'm just trying to point out that, for all the ways Roy is balancing out for those flaws, a reader can still dislike him because of them, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[multilis]

I don't mind mind Roy back, as I found the celestia part boring.

But I do find the storyline now boring compared to before he was rezzed. Waiting for B to die as that may be interesting.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I know what you mean. I think Roy's finest hour was the hiring of Vaarsuvius in Origin; it's not exactly funny, as such, but Roy completely wipes the floor with V in that argument, and V is visibly rocked by it. It's quite a moment.

...Now I really wish I had that book. :smallfrown:

On topic, there's a reason Roy's smiley is :roy:. He's serious, for the most part. Occasional quips like the MRS (Most Recent Strip) give him humor, but he's not Elan. A group of a half-dozen Elans would not be good right now. Or much of anytime. (Maybe I could do a comic about what that would be like...but no.)

[Spiky]

While there undoubtedly are Roy-haters here (and there CERTAINLY Belkar and V-haters, and I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't make much sense), what does that have to do with the thread here? I don't see anyone actively hating Roy. Darakonis seems to dislike him, at worst, and even then not at all times.
I don't think with one sentence I will change the course of the thread, so extra comments can be appropriate, too. And Darakonis used the word hate personally, so that was my impression.


For my part, I agree with Darakonis on a certain level. Every now and then I reread a strip where Roy is being snippy and downright mean at his friends for no reason at all other than seemingly to show off his witty non-stupid-fighter ability to come up with sarcastic remarks. Like that time when he first scries on Durkon, Elan and V, sees them broken and stressed about his death, and then proceeds to moan about how they've had the gall to start a side quest without him. And I'm just reminded what an un-nice guy he can sometimes be, and I'm glad, because I love it when characters are somewhat unlikeable - doesn't that make them more like real people? (It's probably the thing about V's fleet arc that gradually turned me into a fan of him.)

So, objectively, I recognise Roy's deficiencies. It just doesn't bother me. But then, NONE of the characters in the comic do, not even hate-fodder like Celia or Miko or Belkar or V. It's probably just my own thing, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people look at the same picture and DO feel a negative response. A matter of taste, as Darakonis said.
I think you are missing one point of Roy's personality. He is tired of dealing with Elan. Much of his commentary is because of this. And Elan isn't exactly his friend, more like his problem of responsibility. As is Belkar, though for different reasons.

[Ridureyu]

Personally, I think the comic needs to go even further on the path trod by Cerebus and ditch the humor entirely in favor of becoming a soapbox for bats**t crazy misogyny.

Hear, hear!

[Darakonis]

I don't see anyone actively hating Roy. Darakonis seems to dislike him, at worst, and even then not at all times.

People enjoy selectively reading posts and jumping to false conclusions. Thanks for clarifying that I'm not the demon some would make me out to be, Kaytara.


And I'm just reminded what an un-nice guy he can sometimes be, and I'm glad, because I love it when characters are somewhat unlikeable - doesn't that make them more like real people? (It's probably the thing about V's fleet arc that gradually turned me into a fan of him.)

I think Roy is the most realistic, believable character in OotS. Kudos to Rich for some great writing. Elan, Belkar, and Durkon are intentional caricatures; V has developed into a 3d character, but his elven and magical nature preclude me from imagining him as a real person; Haley has built up depth over time; but as I see it, Roy is the one character that I feel is most like a real person -- so maybe I feel that if I met him in real life, he's not the type of person I'd get along with.


I inferred that what his actions, words and motives. What you infer is at your discretion but I'd probably tell you you were wrong if you got something negative out of that.

Then I apologize for having a "wrong" opinion.


People think that characters in a story, especially one with a fourth wall, somehow use perfect reasoning. And if they did, what Roy did would have been monumentally stupid. But people are not like that in real-life and they're not here.

I hope this wasn't directed at me, because I stated above:


Roy is not a stupid character, and I can understand that in the heat of the moment he didn't realize how silly jumping onto that flying dragon was, so I don't think any less of Roy because of the incident

In other words: I accept that characters in stories, just like characters in real life, don't use perfect reasoning.


The fact that Roy insults people but still saves them when it matters doesn't make the insults any less real.

Exactly -- some people seem to believe that a nice act cancels out a bad act. I blame videogames like Neverwinter Nights for their point-system alignments: you can murder as many civilians as you want, as long as you cancel it out by donating to the church later :smallbiggrin:


And Darakonis used the word hate personally, so that was my impression.

My one mention of the word "hate" was as follows:


I admit that my opinion of Roy isn't free of bias, but my bias is based precisely on how Roy was written -- what else can it be based on? I didn't start reading the comic and decide, "hey, I'm gonna try to hate this Roy guy."

The word "hate" was used to satirize a hypothetical situation by means of exaggeration. If the only thing that was gathered from that post was that I hate Roy, then that's selective reading at its finest. Not only do I not hate Roy, I even said that I *like* afterlife Roy.

[multilis]

...are missing one point of Roy's personality. He is tired of dealing with Elan. Much of his commentary is because of this. And Elan isn't exactly his friend, more like his problem of responsibility. As is Belkar, though for different reasons.
And V become tired of dealing with his fellow party for a while as well. ;-)

Some might see Roy as snobbish, just as V was, for seeming to think of Elan as beneath him. (Apparently at higher lvls, Wizards>Fighters>Bards).

[spargel]

Exactly -- some people seem to believe that a nice act cancels out a bad act. I blame videogames like Neverwinter Nights for their point-system alignments: you can murder as many civilians as you want, as long as you cancel it out by donating to the church later :smallbiggrin:


Most of the people he insults tend to be the people who deserve it.

[Kaytara]

Most of the people he insults tend to be the people who deserve it.

I respectfully disagree with the idea that someone like Elan "deserves" to be snidely insulted just for being annoying. And in any case, as I said above, the Afterlife deva calls Roy out on this. "Deserving" anything is clearly not much of a factor here.

EDIT: Unless you're talking about how it should appear as less offensive and shocking to the viewer, in which case I think it's a matter of personal taste. I do, however, feel the need to mention that verbally crushing the opponent's spirit into the dust is a staple of truly horrible EVIL VILLAINS, also known as the Hannibal Lecture. That little rant Roy delivered to Miko (the rant Belkar approved of, tellingly enough) isn't too much different to the rant Xykon did to V, or to Dorukan.

[spargel]

I respectfully disagree with the idea that someone like Elan "deserves" to be snidely insulted just for being annoying. And in any case, as I said above, the Afterlife deva calls Roy out on this. "Deserving" anything is clearly not much of a factor here.


And I support Roy's insulting of Elan simply for being annoying.



EDIT: Unless you're talking about how it should appear as less offensive and shocking to the viewer, in which case I think it's a matter of personal taste. I do, however, feel the need to mention that verbally crushing the opponent's spirit into the dust is a staple of truly horrible EVIL VILLAINS, also known as the Hannibal Lecture. That little rant Roy delivered to Miko (the rant Belkar approved of, tellingly enough) isn't too much different to the rant Xykon did to V, or to Dorukan.

Pointing out the serious flaws of an arrogant idiot doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

[Kaytara]

And I support Roy's insulting of Elan simply for being annoying.

Ah. Why?


Pointing out the serious flaws of an arrogant idiot doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

Pointing out serious flaws by itself doesn't strike me as a bad thing, either.

What matters is whether you do it as part of constructive criticism or turn it into emotional and mental torture.

Unless the latter isn't a bad thing, either...?

[Zordrath]

Note, however, that he did try constructive criticism long before that (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)) and it had absolutely no effect.

[Kaytara]

Note, however, that he did try constructive criticism long before that (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)) and it had absolutely no effect.

Different situations. In the comic you linked, Roy is genuinely trying to make Miko a better person, or at least easier to deal with.

In the throne room fight, he has long abandoned any ideas about trying to change her. He's not ranting at her to change her, he's insulting her to hurt her, make himself feel better after tolerating her for so long, and get it off his chest. He's "criticising" her for his own benefit, not for hers.

If he were actually trying to make a last-minute attempt to reform her, his speech would have a quite different tone.

[Zordrath]

I didn't say he was trying to be constructive in the throne room. He obviously wasn't. My point was that insults and hostility were not Roy's first reactions to Miko's attitude, and that he did try constructive criticism long before he became so singularly hostile to her. Miko, however, informed him that he would, in fact, never get her to reconsider her attitude. A paladin never compromises and is never wrong and is above all non-paladins. In the throne room, Roy didn't try to talk her out of that mindset again because everything he knew about Miko told him that it would be futile. Maybe this was not in fact true, and maybe Miko could have been reformed in that moment. But Roy's impression that this possibility did not exist is, to me, perfectly valid, as it's based on a long string of interactions with Miko, none of which gave any indication of her being able to change her ways.

[Kaytara]

Okay, I see what you mean. I don't see how it changes anything, though. If someone truly "deserves" to be insulted, it doesn't make it right when the hero does it, it just gives him an excuse to do so. The villain has it coming, but it doesn't make what the hero does in response any less malicious.

Besides, Miko's hardly the only example. As I said earlier, he insults Elan on a regular basis, and for much less than what Miko has done. I'm not really sure what we're arguing about at this point. I was initially just demonstrating that Roy has a malicious streak, but spargel seemed to wave it off as deserved or justified or not a bad thing. I'm just still fuzzy how anyone can claim that verbally abusing people isn't a flaw of Roy's when the Lawful Good deva says otherwise.

[Zordrath]

If someone truly "deserves" to be insulted, it doesn't make it right when the hero does it, it just gives him an excuse to do so. The villain has it coming, but it doesn't make what the hero does in response any less malicious.
Hm, true. Looks like we need a more controversial topic for a full-blown argument... :smalltongue:


I'm just still fuzzy how anyone can claim that verbally abusing people isn't a flaw of Roy's when the Lawful Good deva says otherwise.
While I agree that Roy's tendency to insult well-meaning people like Elan is indeed a flaw, I think it is easy to see why the word of a Lawful Good Deva is not taken as final word on what's a flaw and what's not anymore. The Lawful Good alignment has taken some hefty beatings over the course of this story, with some of the most despicable as well as some of the most noble actions being motivated by it. It is not an unambigous indicator of what is morally right, so what the Deva perceives as a flaw doesn't necessarily have to be one.

[Darakonis]

This is interesting... I think this is further proving that all this really boils down to is personal taste.

Some people like Roy for his snide remarks, others (like myself) find they make him a less likable character.

(First, a brief note on my use of the following terminology:
"Good" (in parentheses) is the opposite of evil, in alignment terms.
Good (no parentheses) is the opposite of bad, synonyms for desirable and undesirable)

It's been proven in-comic by the Deva that being snide is not a "good" trait. Kaytara described it very accurately as "emotional and mental torture." Torture, in all its forms, is an act of evil. I'll preempt any rebuttal against the "torture" argument by saying that even if you don't consider it torture, snide remarks are never made with good intentions.

Attacking someone with a physical weapon in order to save someone else's life is an act of violence (possibly even murder) with a good intention. Even if you could think of a good intention for a snide remark, you'll be hard-pressed to find an instance in which Roy had a good intention.

(And in a D&D sense, any act of violence that doesn't take away hitpoints but nonetheless inflicts pain is essentially torture, however minor it may be.)

A snide remark would ping at the "high-school jerk" level on the Evil-scale, but it is nonetheless evil. Does that mean Roy is evil? No. "Good" characters are allowed to slip up, to have flaws. It makes Roy more believable, because he's not the goody-two-shoes Lawful Good stereotype.

In general, I think snide remarks are funny. I think Dr. House is a riot. But with Roy, it just doesn't work for me, for a couple reasons, and one of those reasons is that he's snide to Elan. I find Elan annoying, and he's far from being my favorite character, so I could understand that Roy finds him annoying. But Elan has so much respect for Roy, he looks up to him, he probably thinks of him as a big brother. He's such a gentle spirit that I find it cruel to be snide to the poor guy, regardless of how much he may "deserve it" for being annoying.

I don't think whether the snide remarks are "good" is in question, but whether people think it's a good character trait to have -- and that is just a matter of taste.

[hamishspence]

Strictly, its not quite the same thing.

Torture takes away hitpoints- unless, it is so-called Intimidating torture- which doesn't- and ranks as one of the least evil of evil acts, in FC2.

Not just that- but torture is very context-sensitive. A monk using a Pain Touch from Complete Warrior to disable an attacker, is not committing torture.

One using it on a bound enemy as either revenge, punishment, or a means of interrogation, is.

Being snide falls well short of "intimidating torture"

It might come under "humiliating an underling" (another low-rank evil act) but that would depend on how serious it was.

V's rant at Elan, at the beginning of Paladin Blues, is a much better candidate for this, than most of Roy's snide remarks.

[spargel]

Ah. Why?

Most of the Elan insults that I can remember were spoken to either the audience or to another party member, so it sounds more like Roy is simply complaining about his problems rather than trying to be a jerk to Elan.



Pointing out serious flaws by itself doesn't strike me as a bad thing, either.

What matters is whether you do it as part of constructive criticism or turn it into emotional and mental torture.

Unless the latter isn't a bad thing, either...?

Why do people here use the word "torture" so lightly?

[hamishspence]

yes- it has a very specific meaning, and "emotional humiliation" falls a bit short of it under most circumstances.

[Kaytara]

Most of the Elan insults that I can remember were spoken to either the audience or to another party member, so it sounds more like Roy is simply complaining about his problems rather than trying to be a jerk to Elan.
There are instances when the insult was spoken directly to Elan, though.


Why do people here use the word "torture" so lightly?

I'm not particular about the term. "Inflicting pain' works just as well. If using "torture" offends you because you think it doesn't fit, okay. I'm not trying to hype Roy's remarks up to something horribly damning. But when you're insulting someone, you're usually doing it with the intent to hurt them to make yourself feel better. That's what I see when I read Roy's insults - it fits particularly well with his history of trying to prove that he's not just a big dumb fighter, since he tends to self-validate at the expense of other people.

And when you're not just insulting someone to hurt them, but actively trying to hurt them as much as possible, and exploit every weak point you know to break their confidence and their spirit or get back at them for everything they did to you... hell, in such cases, I don't even see why the word "torture" should be inappropriate.

[Porthos]

But Elan has so much respect for Roy, he looks up to him, he probably thinks of him as a big brother.

It's interesting that you mention this, as Elan definetly looks at this as a Big Brother/Little Brother relationship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html).

And one of the, and yes I use this word unabashedly, tropes of the Big Brother Little Brother dynamic is the (sometime vicious) teasing that goes on from the older brother to the younger brother. In fact there's a strip (though I can't remember which one ATM) where Elan references that very trope when he claims that Roy is just teasing him.

Of course, being Elan, he immediately starts to worry when he realizes that Roy hasn't been teasing him as much as he used to, so he then wonders if Roy really still likes him. So he vows to try to be more annoying so he can get teased. Or something like that. :smalltongue:

Now the great dividing line for the relationship between Roy and Elan is undoubtedly the Bandit Arc. Before then, Roy genuinely didn't like Elan. But afterwards, his attitude softened. So much so that by the time of the Assassination Attempt at the Inn, he was willing to sacrifice his masculinity to save Elan.

It's been a slow process, but I genuinely think that Roy likes Elan now. Sure, he finds him annoying at times. But who wouldn't? :smalltongue: But just because Roy (who has a lot of his father in him) will resort to being a Deadpan Snarker to relieve his frustration, it doesn't follow that he doesn't care for Elan.

And as long as Elan is (mostly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) :smalltongue:) good with it, who are we to judge? :smallsmile:

[spargel]

There are instances when the insult was spoken directly to Elan, though.


And those are usually times when Elan deserves those insults.



I'm not particular about the term. "Inflicting pain' works just as well. If using "torture" offends you because you think it doesn't fit, okay. I'm not trying to hype Roy's remarks up to something horribly damning. But when you're insulting someone, you're usually doing it with the intent to hurt them to make yourself feel better. That's what I see when I read Roy's insults - it fits particularly well with his history of trying to prove that he's not just a big dumb fighter, since he tends to self-validate at the expense of other people.

And when you're not just insulting someone to hurt them, but actively trying to hurt them as much as possible, and exploit every weak point you know to break their confidence and their spirit or get back at them for everything they did to you... hell, in such cases, I don't even see why the word "torture" should be inappropriate.

Because it requires severe pain and suffering, physical or mental. No matter how much you exaggerate it, the emotional pain from Roy's insults is not enough to be considered torture.

[Kaytara]

And those are usually times when Elan deserves those insults.
I'm still at loss at how Elan is capable of "deserving" an insult. He's not malicious. He's probably the most pure-hearted member of the whole Order. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He does stupid things because he doesn't know any better, and his motivation is pretty much always either to help or just to have fun. Insulting him for that is like kicking a puppy.


Because it requires severe pain and suffering, physical or mental. No matter how much you exaggerate it, the emotional pain from Roy's insults is not enough to be considered torture.
I already said that I don't insist on calling Roy's insults torture. From the very beginning, my use of the word "torture" was exclusive to only the most extreme form of insults, the insults that are intended not just for self-gratification, but to actively break the victim's spirit. Only in that case do I think it can be considered torture.

And I already said I'm not trying to exagerrate things to make Roy seem worse than he is, geez. Insulting is hurting someone. That's what I'm trying to say. In the most extreme form, it can be considered a form of torture. If you think otherwise, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But my point isn't that Roy is so horrible that he tortures people, it's that he has a mean streak, and in my opinion his tendency to insult people is an example of that mean streak, rather than harmless and okay because it's somehow justified by being "deserved".

I'm pretty sure that torture in the traditional meaning doesn't need to have physical components, by the way. Psychological torture is just as much torture as breaking someone's fingers is.

Porthos... :smalltongue: That's an interesting point to bring up, but I don't think it changes anything. Just because (sometimes vicious) teasing is considered "normal" in a relationship like that doesn't change the fact that it's still (sometimes vicious) teasing. To use an analogy, humans in general have a sadistic streak. That doesn't change the idea that sadism is a negative quality. In short, the norm != okay.

[spargel]

I'm still at loss at how Elan is capable of "deserving" an insult. He's not malicious. He's probably the most pure-hearted member of the whole Order. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He does stupid things because he doesn't know any better, and his motivation is pretty much always either to help or just to have fun. Insulting him for that is like kicking a puppy.


Being stupid can be costly and dangerous.



I already said that I don't insist on calling Roy's insults torture. From the very beginning, my use of the word "torture" was exclusive to only the most extreme form of insults, the insults that are intended not just for self-gratification, but to actively break the victim's spirit. Only in that case do I think it can be considered torture.

And I already said I'm not trying to exagerrate things to make Roy seem worse than he is, geez. Insulting is hurting someone. That's what I'm trying to say. In the most extreme form, it can be considered a form of torture. If you think otherwise, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But my point isn't that Roy is so horrible that he tortures people, it's that he has a mean streak, and in my opinion his tendency to insult people is an example of that mean streak, rather than harmless and okay because it's somehow justified by being "deserved".

I'm pretty sure that torture in the traditional meaning doesn't need to have physical components, by the way. Psychological torture is just as much torture as breaking someone's fingers is.

I don't think it's ever going to be considered torture when the person being insulted can simply walk away. Roy doesn't really go out of his way just to insult someone.

[Kaytara]

Being stupid can be costly and dangerous.

How do insults help? :smallconfused:


I don't think it's ever going to be considered torture when the person being insulted can simply walk away. Roy doesn't really go out of his way just to insult someone.

Right. The "Hannibal Lecture as emotional torture" situation was hypothetical.

[spargel]

How do insults help? :smallconfused:

If he doesn't want to be insulted, he'll either leave or stop doing stupid things.

[Kaytara]

If he doesn't want to be insulted, he'll either leave or stop doing stupid things.

Ugh, are you serious? O.O Elan isn't doing stupid things on purpose! (Usually, anyway.) He is just trying to help! How exactly will insulting him improve his ability to judge what's best and what the reasonable course of action is supposed to be?!

[spargel]

Ugh, are you serious? O.O Elan isn't doing stupid things on purpose! (Usually, anyway.) He is just trying to help! How exactly will insulting him improve his ability to judge what's best and what the reasonable course of action is supposed to be?!

He'll think about his actions next time before he does them?

[Lvl45DM!]

Its called punishment and can be quite effective, though not nearly as good as positive reinforcement
Child misbehaves or acts stupidly you punish, they ar eless likely to do it again, but doesnt know the right course
child behaves well, you reward child is hugely likely to do it again

Unfortuanetly i dont think Roy's insults are effective, mostly cos they are over elans head or under Roy's breath alot of the time so it comes down to Roy amusing himself when Elan is horrifically annoying

[Kaytara]

He'll think about his actions next time before he does them?

...and just come to the same conclusions. Yelling at him for being an idiot can't exactly show him how not to be an idiot.


Its called punishment and can be quite effective, though not nearly as good as positive reinforcement
Child misbehaves or acts stupidly you punish, they ar eless likely to do it again, but doesnt know the right course
child behaves well, you reward child is hugely likely to do it again

Unfortuanetly i dont think Roy's insults are effective, mostly cos they are over elans head or under Roy's breath alot of the time so it comes down to Roy amusing himself when Elan is horrifically annoying

We're probably using completely different premises here because I'm in strong opposition of the idea that a punishment/reward system can be considered even slightly effective as far as actually raising a child. You mentioned it yourself - a child may refrain from doing the "wrong" thing in the future but they won't know why. Their critical thinking abilities aren't stimulated and at the end of the day, they don't know any better. So when they face a new situation, they're just as lost as always, and when they eventually grow up and leave, they may do things completely differently to what they were taught, when the person dispensing punishment or rewards is no longer around.

Insulting Elan may actually be the worst thing to do if Roy is trying to get more common sense into him, rather than just venting his own frustration. Actually explaining to him why things work or don't work is likely to yield better results. As we've seen with V teaching Elan about random encounters or the effective use of illusions, Elan respond well enough to actual teaching.

[spargel]

...and just come to the same conclusions. Yelling at him for being an idiot can't exactly show him how not to be an idiot.


Yelling at him doesn't seem to hurt either. Elan doesn't cry or anything whenever Roy makes a snarky comment. Only V succeeded in that, and that's because her insult was a lot more direct and personal.

[Lvl45DM!]

so Roy's the hardcase parent and V is the nurturer who lost it once...big deal youre acting like Elan is helpless...hes an adult who has picked a class BASED on the idea of insulting or mocking people in battle "brought a sword to a dagger fight"?
Elan mocks Roy as much as Roy mocks Elan
"roy has Boobies"
and then when roy is poisoned and helpless he goes further and actively humiliates and takes pleasure in it

Now im not saying Elan is bad for this...just that Roy isnt either

[Mugen Nightgale]

Err... I though it was pretty obvious that the "insults" are mostly for the sake of comedy. As Elan stupidness is just another comic tool to keep us entertained. I mean don't you really think a level 14 adventurer would be alive being utterly dumb? The Roy and Elan dynamic happens to be funny not to be analyzed.

[Kaytara]

Yelling at him doesn't seem to hurt either. Elan doesn't cry or anything whenever Roy makes a snarky comment. Only V succeeded in that, and that's because her insult was a lot more direct and personal.

So because Elan usually doesn't react badly to it, the insults are not supposed to reflect on Roy as a person?


Err... I though it was pretty obvious that the "insults" are mostly for the sake of comedy. ...

So is Belkar's mayhem. :smalltongue:


so Roy's the hardcase parent and V is the nurturer who lost it once...big deal youre acting like Elan is helpless.. ....

Now im not saying Elan is bad for this...just that Roy isnt either

Elan being an adult is something most of the Order would disagree with, I think. Perhaps less so now, but for the first 400 comics or so, certainly.
Elan is immature and childish, him teasing people or doing other childish things is part of that. Roy, in theory, should know better.

[spargel]

So because Elan usually doesn't react badly to it, the insults are not supposed to reflect on Roy as a person?


If Elan cries each time Roy insults him, and Roy keeps doing it, that would reflect a lot differently. Otherwise, the snarky comments feel more neutral rather than evil.

[hamishspence]

yes- the difference between "snarky comments" and "real humiliating insults" is illustrated when V does it.

Result- Elan bursts into tears- and Haley ticks V off.

[Asta Kask]

How do insults help? :smallconfused:

It relieves the urge to strangle Elan. At least for the moment.