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xPANCAKEx
2009-10-18, 08:47 PM
is there any sort of guide as to what races are worth their LA and what arn't

things like whispher gnomes are often refered to as being "powerful for a +0" or even "too powerful" and some are underpowered (and to some respects it does depend on what class you play), but does anyone have a list/guide?

Mando Knight
2009-10-18, 09:18 PM
Dwarf, Water Orc, Human.

Glimbur
2009-10-18, 09:24 PM
Humans are sweet due to the bonus feat. The extra skill/level is sometimes nice. Other races that get a bonus feat, like Strongheart Halflings or Azurin, are also good.

Dwarves get a Con bonus and lots of abilities. Some of these are bonuses to saves, specifically versus poison and spells.

Water Orcs get nice boosts to physical stats at the expense of some mentals.

Beyond that... depends what you want. A Grey Elf might be a nice wizard due to the Int bonus, but that Con penalty hurts a lot. Generally races don't get a bonus to a casting stat and LA +0.

There's some abuse possible with types: Elans are aberrations which allows some odd feat choices; there are Outsiders with 1 or 0 LA that let you abuse Alter Self, being not Humanoid makes you immune to X Person spells, etc. These are more niche.

tl;dr Hard to summarize, Humans et al are nice for the feat.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:24 PM
My favorite casting races: Grey Elf, Fire Elf, Lesser Tiefling, Whisper Gnome, Human.

The above are all for wizard. No doubt there's a different set for other classes, but I suspect human is going to be in the top five more often than not, simply because of how useful an extra feat is for setting up combos.

aje8
2009-10-18, 09:37 PM
Best General Races IMO: Stronheart Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Human, Water Orc

More specific stuff like Dwarf and Grey Elf are good sometimes..... but those are the big 4 of races IMO. Almost anything you can do with another race can be done almost as good or better with one of those.

Examples:
Wizard: Strongheart Halfling
Fighter: Water Orc
Dex-Based Melee Combat: Whisper Gnome

tyckspoon
2009-10-18, 09:45 PM
I don't know if anybody has compiled one, but generally speaking:

A 'strong' race will have one or more of-
A bonus to a primary stat, especially one used by an already powerful class or of very broad importance, like Con (Gray Elf, Dwarf, Dragonborn)
Very general bonuses that you can apply to many things or just anything at all (Humans are the prototypical example, with a general bonus feat and a free skill point.)
Specific bonuses to things that are very common (Halfling bonus to all saves, Dwarf bonus against spells and spell-likes, Small Size bonuses to hit and AC)
Specific bonuses to things that are already good options (Whisper Gnome bonuses to stealth skills, regular gnome bonus to Illusion save DCs)
Useful abilities that are otherwise difficult to acquire (Raptorans for mundane flight, Thri-kreen for extra arms, Elan for immediate action PP uses)
Usually no LA. LA 1 or 2 is tolerable if the LA Buyoff rules are used (especially if the game is starting at a higher level and you can begin with the adjustment already paid off.)

Tyndmyr
2009-10-18, 09:49 PM
Without LA buyoff, LA is almost never worthwhile. High LA races are pretty much never worthwhile regardless of buyoff.

The above is especially true for casting classes. It doesn't much matter how nifty the stat boost are when you're half a dozen caster levels down, trying to survive.

Edit: I would add Dragonwrought Kobold as a relatively decent race too. It happens to give more options than most races, and Ive seen them used for a few interesting combos. It's no automatic pick, but it's something fun to look at, and consider what you could do with it.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-18, 10:44 PM
Half-minotaur is pretty powerful for a melee build due to an odd phrasing.
'Apply template, and if templated creature is a size category larger than regular, apply stat changes in accordance with size changes'. Or something along those lines.
So you get +X str for the template. And possibly +Y str for going up a size category.

Trying to remember the specifics of the race, but I think the winged elves (Avariels) had a better flight than the raptorans glide. Though their stat changes might not have been as good.

Defiant
2009-10-18, 10:57 PM
If we're not evaluating only from a caster level (meaning that any non-caster = automatic eternal suck forever), then some races are pretty good.

The pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm) is just amazing for a rogue. And it's even more amazing for a gestalt rogue//wizard if LA can go on one side.

SoD
2009-10-18, 11:00 PM
Trying to remember the specifics of the race, but I think the winged elves (Avariels) had a better flight than the raptorans glide. Though their stat changes might not have been as good.

Well, raptorans have the same stat modifications as humans, ie, none.

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:02 PM
Half-minotaur is pretty powerful for a melee build due to an odd phrasing.
'Apply template, and if templated creature is a size category larger than regular, apply stat changes in accordance with size changes'. Or something along those lines.
So you get +X str for the template. And possibly +Y str for going up a size category.

Trying to remember the specifics of the race, but I think the winged elves (Avariels) had a better flight than the raptorans glide. Though their stat changes might not have been as good.Their stats are pretty good if you can avoid taking damage.
I believe they get -4 con.

Mongoose87
2009-10-18, 11:10 PM
What book are Avariel in? FR campaign setting?

herrhauptmann
2009-10-18, 11:13 PM
Elves of Faerun or something along those lines. Softback book, should have been during the days of 3.0, maybe right before 3.5.

Set
2009-10-18, 11:23 PM
My opinions only

Good: Human, Strongheart Halfling, Dwarf, Lesser Planetouched (esp Lesser Aasimar!), Lesser Drow

There are specific situations where a Halfling, Whisper Gnome, Water Orc, Illumian, Changeling or Dragontouched Kobold (with the Races of the Dragon web enhancement extras) allows you to do some cool stuff as well.

Other races are almost never good choices, like the 1/2 Orc, Hobgoblin, Goblin, MM Kobold (w/out Races of the Dragon stuff) or Tiefling. LA is almost never worth it, unless you have buy-off, and Racial Hit Dice and / or monster class levels balance terribly, IMO.

Dixieboy
2009-10-18, 11:26 PM
What book are Avariel in? FR campaign setting?

I believe it's called "Races of Faerun".

herrhauptmann
2009-10-19, 12:12 AM
I believe it's called "Races of Faerun".

Could be, but the time I saw it, it was an elf specific faerun book. Complete with saying that elves were originally outsiders from a different plane.

BooNL
2009-10-19, 05:14 AM
, Lesser Planetouched (esp Lesser Aasimar!), Lesser Drow

Where are these from actually? I've been looking forever.

A lot of the races suddenly become good if you remove the LA. Hobgoblins and Blues are excellent examples, the only reason they have an LA is because they are an exotic race.

Catfolk (RotW) and Dromites (XPH) are pretty good for their LA (+1).

Warforged (MM3, ECS), Mongrelfolk (RoD) and Dragonborn (RoTD) are pretty good LA0 races.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 05:48 AM
Player's Guide to Faerun, I believe.

I love me some halfling (racial sub levels are fun), and strongheart's the best.

For one universally deemed OP?

Jermlaine (MM2). Serious dex and wisdom boost, and LA 0.
(Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6)

Add in Tiny size, and they can be ornery buggers.

hamishspence
2009-10-19, 05:49 AM
Races of Faerun is a Hardback, as I recall there is no softback called "elves of Faerun" or anything like that.

I don't think Monsters of Faerun (which is a softback) had Avariels, nor did the few other softbacks (Silver Marches, City of the Spider Queen, Magic of Faerun, Lords of Darkness)

Zincorium
2009-10-19, 06:56 AM
Anthropomorphic bat, for wis based casters.

Anthropomorphic baleen whale, for melee'rs.

Yeah, you might be making the Petting Zoo People group, but you'll be successfully min-maxed.

Dixieboy
2009-10-19, 06:58 AM
Anthropomorphic bat, for wis based casters.
.

That thing so has to be a misprint.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-19, 02:48 PM
Races of Faerun is a Hardback, as I recall there is no softback called "elves of Faerun" or anything like that.


Then what 3.0 Faerun book was printed that dealt specifically with Elves?
It came out as part of a print line with Magic of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun.

Telonius
2009-10-19, 03:30 PM
Warforged are fairly good for Artificers (particularly with the racial substitution levels).

Mr. Mud
2009-10-19, 03:39 PM
Depending on what you LA Buyoff, most of the anthropomorphic classes are good, for their respected ability score. Nothing gamebreaking (suually) but still most are pretty solid.

also, +$0.02

:smallbiggrin:.

hamishspence
2009-10-19, 03:41 PM
Then what 3.0 Faerun book was printed that dealt specifically with Elves?
It came out as part of a print line with Magic of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun.

Lost empires didn't arrive till part-way through 3.5.

I can't think of a book that dealt specifically with elves- aside from Races of Faerun, which deals with other races too- and my collection is pretty extensive. (Races of the Wild deals with elves, raptorans, and halflings, but is 3.5 and not Faerun-specific.)

3.0 Faerun books I know of:

FRCS
Monsters of Faerun
Magic of Faerun
Lords of Darkness
Silver Marches
City of the Spider Queen
Faiths and Pantheons
Races of Faerun
Unapproachable East

3.5 Faerun books I know of

Underdark
Players Guide to Faerun
Serpent Kingdoms
Shining South
Lost Empires of Faerun
Champions of Ruin
Waterdeep: City of Splendors
Champions of Valor
Power of Faerun
Dragons of Faerun
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Cormyr- The Tearing of the Weave
Shadowdale- The Scouring of the Land
Anauroch- The Empire of Shade

These are all the books with rules in- aside from a couple of really thin 3.5 paperback adventures that I have heard of but haven't read.

Talya
2009-10-19, 03:43 PM
Beyond that... depends what you want. A Grey Elf might be a nice wizard due to the Int bonus, but that Con penalty hurts a lot. Generally races don't get a bonus to a casting stat and LA +0.


On a lowish point buy, you can make use of them just the same.

For example, for a human, 18 int, 14 con costs 22 points of their point buy (16 and 6). For a grey elf, those same abilities only cost 20 points (10 and 10). Similarly, a star elf sorcerer is going to benefit from the +2 cha, -2 con.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-19, 03:44 PM
For the low, low cost of +2 LA (pray for buyoff), one could run a Goliath Half-Minotaur and get:
Str: +16 (+4 race, +4 template, +8 size)
Dex: -4 (-2 race, -2 size)
Con: +8 (+2 race, +2 template, +4 size)
Int: -2 (-2 template)
Wis: +2 (+2 template)
Cha: +0
AC: +1 (-1 size, +2 natural armor)

Large
10 ft reach
40 ft ground speed
Acclimated
Mountain Movement
Powerful Build
+2 (racial) Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen
Darkvision: 60 ft
Scent
Track
1d8+Str Gore
+4 to escape Maze
always know north

One could even up the ante and make said character a PsyWar for Expansion nonsense with a spiked chain or something. If races get placed into ranks like classes have been, both the race and template have to be at least Tier 2.


Goliath:
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con
Medium size
30 move
+2 Racial bonus to sense motive
Acclimated: No penalties from high altitude
Powerful Build: treated as one size larger when beneficial
Mountain Movement: Standing long and high jumps treated as running start, accelerated climb without penalty
LA +1

Half-Minotaur:
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis
+1 size to small or medium sized giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid (+8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Natural Armor, -1 AC/Attack)
+10 move speed if size increased
+2 to Natural Armor
Darkvision 60 feet
Scent
+2 Racial bonus on Search, spot, and Listen
1d6+Str gore if medium, 1d8+Str if large
+4 bonus to escape maze spell, always know which direction is north
Track as a bonus feat.
+1 LA

Talya
2009-10-19, 03:55 PM
Half-Minotaur

Considering the concept of the minotaur (half man/half bull), the idea of a "half minotaur" has always struck me as cheese! (Even though I know minotaurs in D&D are treated as a separate race, not the half-beasts of greek mythos.)

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-19, 04:20 PM
Considering the concept of the minotaur (half man/half bull), the idea of a "half minotaur" has always struck me as cheese! (Even though I know minotaurs in D&D are treated as a separate race, not the half-beasts of greek mythos.)

Oh I wholeheartedly agree! However, taking the core half-breed minotaur myth and warping it further into a race is just the sort of thing that DnD does best. Makes me wonder what a quarter-orc or quarter-cow would be statted like. :smalltongue:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-19, 04:31 PM
Lesser Planetouched (esp Lesser Aasimar!),

You think Lesser Aasimar is good; try Lesser Zenithri or Lesser Chaond... (MM2)

Also, Jermlaine/Anthro creatures have obscene Wisdom.

Finally, as Half-Minotaur is OP and in a Dragon magazine (just one of them might get approved. :D), it's unlikely to see too much play.

Set
2009-10-19, 09:03 PM
You think Lesser Aasimar is good; try Lesser Zenithri or Lesser Chaond... (MM2)

Ooh, good find! Both, like the lesser Aasimar, end up with a net +4 to their attributes, some decent resistances and a much better SLA than the Aasimar got! Those poor Tieflings. Less attribute bonuses than every other planetouched, and a sucky nerfed SLA...

(lesser) Chaond - +4 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, Acid, Cold, Sonic Resistance 5, Shatter 1/day at character level, 60 ft. darkvision.

(lesser) Zenithri - +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Electricity, Fire, Sonic Resistance 5, True Strike 1/day, 60 ft. darkvision

The lesser Duergar also could be neat, with that free Enlarge Person 1/day at 2x HD. Upon re-reading, the lesser Drow and Svirfs not really seem that hot (especially compared to a Whisper Gnome or whatnot).


Speaking of MM2, it's a good thing that Sylphs don't have an LA. 3 RHD of fey to get Sorcerer casting at HD+4, improved invisibility at will, summon a large elemental 1/day at CL 12, 90 ft. flight and -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis and +6 Cha? Yes, please.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-10-19, 09:09 PM
Dragonwrought Kobold and Dragonwrough Desert Koblold are always on my shortlist when I'm making any sort of caster or skillmonkey.

oxinabox
2009-10-19, 09:29 PM
high:
human (anything that gets a bonus feat)

Alot of the new races from races of X

Illuminum, depending on how you read it's bonus to CL, can have +2 CL at lvl 2, increasable to +3 with a feat.

that puts illuminum better than most things.

Goliath's good, powerful build