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View Full Version : Need help. BIG TIME.



Mystic Muse
2009-10-19, 04:00 AM
okay. I'm DMing a campaign for my cousins and they asked me to do an LOTR campaign. The only problem is they have no idea what they're getting into. I'm using the book version of Sauron so I think most of you know how Uber he is. That's not the problem. this is the problem.

HOW DO YOU DEFEAT HIM?!

any battle with his full forces would be hopeless. I can't think of any way to beat him short of a huge deus ex machina. Now I could shorten his forces but there's another problem. They also want to fight and kill both Gothmog and Ancalagon the black. (I told them about these two. I now regret it big time.)

another problem is in order for it to make any sense I'd have to merge it with my current campaign. Oh and half of them have a mother that has expressly forbidden religion entering into the game. I could just say Sauron is a very powerful human and Gothmog is just a monster. the real problem is not much short of a god could contend with Sauron. I have quite a few powerful dragons in the campaign if that helps. half of them are good and none of them want Sauron to rule so there's that.

help please?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 04:03 AM
Rule 1: Sauron has no stats.

He exists outside of stats. He has a weakness, but otherwise cannot be stopped.

This means that he can fistfight with a dragon and win.

He will turn the tide of battles by himself.

My advice: Play it as after Sauron's fall, pre-ring destruction. In the time of the books, but in other areas. Perhaps in areas mere weeks or days before notable events. Perhaps they have their own notable events. But run a different plot. One that complements the books.

Eldariel
2009-10-19, 04:10 AM
You could re-enact the culmination of the battle of Last Alliance; just sub the party for Elendil & Gil-Galad (and hope they're near-epic by the time they get into the fight with him; we ain't talking nobodies here). Obviously the party is gonna need to organize a huge fookin' army if they want to even have a chance at taking out Sauron. Then said army needs to perform enough to deal sufficient losses to force Sauron to personally intervene.

Then good oldfashioned fight with some heavy support to somewhat bind Sauron's magical abilities so the players can get into a physical fight with Sauron and duke it out, hopefully coming out on the top (or the whole army is gonna get squashed).


Just treat him as a power that attracts all the evil creatures to him and controls them; don't delve deeper into his essence. Just give him a physical form and leave the details obscure.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-19, 04:14 AM
Rule 1: Sauron has no stats.
.

he has a CR. Apparently somebody statted him out. his CR is "you die."

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 04:14 AM
You could re-enact the culmination of the battle of Last Alliance; just sub the party for Elendil & Gil-Galad (and hope they're near-epic by the time they get into the fight with him; we ain't talking nobodies here). Obviously the party is gonna need to organize a huge fookin' army if they want to even have a chance at taking out Sauron. Then said army needs to perform enough to deal sufficient losses to force Sauron to personally intervene.

Then good oldfashioned fight with some heavy support to somewhat bind Sauron's magical abilities so the players can get into a physical fight with Sauron and duke it out, hopefully coming out on the top (or the whole army is gonna get squashed).


Just treat him as a power that attracts all the evil creatures to him and controls them; don't delve deeper into his essence. Just give him a physical form and leave the details obscure.

Some Mutually Assured Destruction of Sauron and the party could be a win, or severe damage and retreat for both sides. Depending on the alliance army strength.


he has a CR. Apparently somebody statted him out. his CR is "you die."
LOL. This means he was not intended to directly face.

Eldariel
2009-10-19, 04:17 AM
he has a CR. Apparently somebody statted him out. his CR is "you die."

That's hardly official. Stat him out again. But yeah, let the characters gain levels. A lot of levels. Make it clear how awesome they are (that being high-level means you're more than just a man/elf/halfling/dwarf) and that they might stand a small chance at the end of the campaign with huge support. Also, make it clear that Sauron is kickass. That should be a stage for epic confrontation.

Rest should take care of itself; Phoenix's version might very well be a nice ending. But see how they perform and let that dictate how it all ends.

Killer Angel
2009-10-19, 04:18 AM
My advice: Play it as after Sauron's fall, pre-ring destruction. In the time of the books, but in other areas. Perhaps in areas mere weeks or days before notable events.

Even after the ring's destruction. A great evil lurks in the mines of Moria...

Chrono22
2009-10-19, 04:21 AM
Even after the ring's destruction. A great evil lurks in the mines of Moria...
Run with this.

JeminiZero
2009-10-19, 04:24 AM
I might be missing something here. But why can't you let them take out Sauron the movie way (i.e. drop the one ring into mount doom)?

Otherwise, go for the Deus Ex Machina way. Some aging epic wizard gives them a device that can take out Sauron (Created Anti-Osmium contained within sphere of force). Problem is that it will also wipe out the planet as well. They have to somehow trick Sauron off-planet and detonate it there.

Jan Mattys
2009-10-19, 04:33 AM
I have been lucky enough to have DMed the most beautiful and satisfying LOTR campaign EVER (I'm not exaggerating, even if I know this statement seems quite foolish). My players still talk about it after years.

It is an original story, it involves Sauron, it is perfectly suited for both the LOTR fans and for those who can't tell what a Nazgul is. And it's perfect for 3-5 players.

Can be played in 6-8 months (assuming one session per week).

As soon as I have an hour or so, I'll post the plot.
If you prefer to keep it secret (maybe some players of yours read the GITP forum?) and you prefer me to PM it to you, just say so.

Same goes for others interested in hearing the plot.

kamikasei
2009-10-19, 04:45 AM
Sauron is not unbeatable. As mentioned, at the culmination of the siege by the Last Alliance, Elendil and Gil-galad simply beat him up. Now, granted, this was in the glory days and Elendil was nine feet tall with an aura of coruscating light, while Gil-galad was presumably similarly more badass than Third Age elves, but still. And it's debatable whether they actually defeated him or just got him on the ground for long enough for Isildur to cut off his ring finger, which may have been the actual killing blow - it's not entirely clear. And they did die in the process.

But still.

Honestly I would just say "guys, it doesn't fit the campaign at all, amusing as it might be it's just not worth trying to shoehorn in a fight against these characters from a totally different setting with a totally different tone and assumptions".

What are the details of the "no religion" restriction? Are you not allowed to have clerics, paladins, celestials, fiends etc? That would definitely add another layer of "no" to the whole thing.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-19, 04:48 AM
As soon as I have an hour or so, I'll post the plot.
If you prefer to keep it secret (maybe some players of yours read the GITP forum?) and you prefer me to PM it to you, just say so.

Same goes for others interested in hearing the plot.

sounds good. There's no chance they'd be on here. Believe me.

I changed the party cleric to "the doctor."* nobody is a Paladin or any other divine class so it doesn't really matter. The mother doesn't want anything to do with Religion at all in the campaign.

*exactly like the cleric with a different name.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-19, 05:19 AM
I think that Sauron's combat prowess is overrated. Most of his offensive power is tied up in the One Ring. Note that anytime that he directly engaged in battle, he lost. That's why he prefers to act behind the scenes. He does best as a manipulator & schemer, not as a direct combatant.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-19, 05:32 AM
This is doomed to failure.

Alternatively, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU) or read this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612). :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2009-10-19, 05:44 AM
This is doomed to failure.

Alternatively, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU) or read this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612). :smallwink:

yeah I've seen both of these. I think I'm a better DM than the DM of the rings.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-19, 05:56 AM
Then you're just doomed to failure, I guess. Sorry. But don't feel bad! So is everybody else! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 06:02 AM
As long as you don't try to script the movie, and instead tell a parallel story that the party CAN interact with, you're fine.

kamikasei
2009-10-19, 06:32 AM
A Lord of the Rings (as opposed to "set in Middle Earth in an earlier Age") campaign in which the PCs face Sauron, Gothmog and Ancalagon in combat... pretty much shouldn't be. I think this is a greater problem than statting up Sauron. And an actual LotR campaign would have a very hard time being run without some religious elements - basically the entire plot is driven by the idea that the heroes have to trust in providence.

What exactly do the players want? You could give them an evil overlord with a magic ring, a Balor lieutenant and a great wyrm black dragon (which breathes fire) easily enough.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-10-19, 07:02 AM
I used the plot line of LotR as the basis for a Star Wars campaign...
We got bogged down before we'd finished The Hobbit-based prequel, and from that point on, the story went NOTHING like the original material.

If you're prepared to work with the themes and ideas of LotR and not try to duplicate the plot, you may have an exciting game. It's almost impossible to get the party to do what the Fellowship did - dice rolls will change the plot, let alone what the players try to do.

Anyway - how to defeat Sauron?
Sauron is essentially an ghost lich, with a special phylactery - the Ring. He can't manifest physically without the Ring. He has artefacts that extend his power (the Palantir, which allows him at will scrying, and limited casting ability through the link).
Sauron's power is mostly influence. He's almost impossible to defeat because he isn't physically present, and you have to destroy his Ring to beat him, anyway.
You'd need to invent a new way to fight Sauron, like "the Only Ghost Touch Weapon in Middle Earth" or something, if you're not going down the Ring Destroying Quest route. Even then, the Ring must be destroyed, somehow.

By the way, a LotR D&D game needs lots of changes to capture the feeling of the material.
Spells aren't flash-bang stuff. You should probably strip out the spell-list, reducing it to mind affecting, buffing and energy manipulating stuff, rather than conjuration and evocation.
You could adopt the "armour is damage conversion" rules from Unearthed Arcana - instead of stopping you getting hit, armour changes lethal damage to subdual, and you get knock unconscious. Frodo's mithril shirt saving him from the troll is a good example.
You'll need to adopt some sort of mechanic for corruption and temptation - evil influences work that way in LotR.

I'd recommend throwing out Clerics and Druids as core classes, and probably sorcerers. Paladins' and Rangers' spells are about the peak of magic one expects from humans in LotR, though maybe you could allow elvish Bards. In any case, you need to strip that spell list down!

The Conan d20 game has a great system for magic that might help you, but it's a big change to the D&D system.

kamikasei
2009-10-19, 07:06 AM
Sauron is essentially an ghost lich, with a special phylactery - the Ring. He can't manifest physically without the Ring.

I don't believe this is supported.

Dixieboy
2009-10-19, 07:25 AM
Spells aren't flash-bang stuff. You should probably strip out the spell-list, reducing it to mind affecting, buffing and energy manipulating stuff, rather than conjuration and evocation.

Ahem, may i remind you that gandal actually uses "spells" that do nothing but make loud noises and bright lights?

Fluffles
2009-10-19, 08:13 AM
Ahem, may i remind you that gandal actually uses "spells" that do nothing but make loud noises and bright lights?

Illusion can cover that :smallwink:

Telonius
2009-10-19, 09:28 AM
D&D does not do Lord of the Rings well at all. You have to stay true to the PHB or to the source material. There's not much middle ground. To do both, you have to have a group of players who are perfectly all right with totally lopsided racial imbalance, permanence of death, non-existence of some classes, nearly nonexistent magic items, Deus ex Machinas out the wazoo, and (most likely) a high casualty rate.

Altair_the_Vexed
2009-10-19, 09:33 AM
I don't believe this is supported.
Which? That he's a ghost, a lich, a ghost lich, or that he can't manifest physically without the Ring?

I made up the ghost lich idea to allow for him to have a phylactery and be incorporeal. The closest D&D concept to the Ring is the lich's phylactery, in my opinion. I base that on no canonical material, but the practical function of the Ring as a source for Sauron's power, which must be destroyed to finish the Dark Lord off forever.
As for Sauron being unable to manifest physically: I base that on the ambiguous form of Sauron throughout the Lord of the Rings - it's not wholly canonical that he wasn't able to take form, but appropriate for the purposes of making him harder to defeat. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron#Appearance)
It may suit the OP to have Sauron be incorporeal, or it may suit to have him be physically present in Barad-dur.
It may be useful to derive rules for Sauron's connection to the One Ring from the lich's phylactery.

Zaydos
2009-10-19, 09:57 AM
I thought the One Ring was an Item Familiar as well as his phylactery. Although it is implied in the books that Galadriel and Gandalf would both have the power to defeat Sauron permanently with the ring but be corrupted in the process. It is also implied Sauron was physical in Mirkwood in the Hobbit under the guise of "the Necromancer".

AslanCross
2009-10-19, 10:22 AM
I hate to be flippant about this, but...

Just because LOTR is a great story set in a great world doesn't mean it makes a good D&D campaign. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?cat=14)

Thane of Fife
2009-10-19, 10:45 AM
any battle with his full forces would be hopeless. I can't think of any way to beat him short of a huge deus ex machina. Now I could shorten his forces but there's another problem. They also want to fight and kill both Gothmog and Ancalagon the black. (I told them about these two. I now regret it big time.)

another problem is in order for it to make any sense I'd have to merge it with my current campaign. Oh and half of them have a mother that has expressly forbidden religion entering into the game. I could just say Sauron is a very powerful human and Gothmog is just a monster. the real problem is not much short of a god could contend with Sauron. I have quite a few powerful dragons in the campaign if that helps. half of them are good and none of them want Sauron to rule so there's that.

help please?

Well, all three of them were beaten by men and/or elves. There's no reason why high-level D&D characters shouldn't be able to take any and/or all of them. Cutting bloody swathes through armies of orcs is similarly the sort of thing which high-level characters do. Great Cleave is, what, a fourth-level feat? I think that you're overestimating the power of these individuals in comparison to D&D characters.

WalkingTarget
2009-10-19, 10:51 AM
D&D does not do Lord of the Rings well at all. You have to stay true to the PHB or to the source material. There's not much middle ground. To do both, you have to have a group of players who are perfectly all right with totally lopsided racial imbalance, permanence of death, non-existence of some classes, nearly nonexistent magic items, Deus ex Machinas out the wazoo, and (most likely) a high casualty rate.

This.

D&D does not model the world that Tolkien invented.

That being said, for adventures in the Third Age you might be able to swing it as an E6 campaign with limited classes/spell lists. Earlier ages might be slightly less restricted. As an E6 campaign, I remember GoC's attempt to build Sauron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71869) from a while back that I thought was interesting, but I'm not enough of a homebrew/crunch guy to know how it'd play out.

Glass Mouse
2009-10-19, 11:17 AM
Do the players want to be classic heroes?

Otherwise, make them work for Sauron! They could be evil, or neutral, and run around, doing his bidding. Conquering the world probably takes a lot of work.

Actually... If they do want the hero-bit, make them work for Sauron, anyway. Then give them the opportunity to backstab him via cunning and stealth.

He'll never know what hit him :smallamused:

SmartAlec
2009-10-19, 12:16 PM
I think that Sauron's combat prowess is overrated. Most of his offensive power is tied up in the One Ring. Note that anytime that he directly engaged in battle, he lost. That's why he prefers to act behind the scenes. He does best as a manipulator & schemer, not as a direct combatant.

To be fair to the guy, every time he ends up fighting, he ends up fighting one or more of the greatest epic heroes of whatever age he's in. And he still slew Gil-Galad before Elendil managed to bullrush him off a cliff.

It's worth noting that LotR doesn't deal in 'hit points' - if you fall 100 feet, you're dead, it doesn't matter how tough you are (although even after the fall, Isildur still needed to deliver the coup-de-grace). Same for the Witch-King, for example - he got stabbed right in the face, that'll kill anyone.

Anyhow. In the Third Age, the problem for budding Sauron-hunters is simple: there are very few beings of the caliber of Luthien or Elendil left (Elendil was eight feet tall, you know!). We're talking heroes of the Iliad-Odyssey-upon-this-day-he-slew-1000-men kind. Galadriel, maybe. Glorfindel is something of a pacifist ever since he returned from across the Sea, so he's out. Maybe Gandalf could give him a straight-up fight if he wasn't bound by the restrictions placed upon him. There simply isn't anyone else.

So no matter how high the PCs climb, they'll always lack that spark of epicness that the heroes of bygone ages had that allowed them to stand toe-to-toe with these demigods and fight them to the end, because the PCs were born in the Third Age, when that sort of thing had almost faded away.

Glass Mouse
2009-10-19, 12:41 PM
It's worth noting that LotR doesn't deal in 'hit points' - if you fall 100 feet, you're dead, it doesn't matter how tough you are (although even after the fall, Isildur still needed to deliver the coup-de-grace). Same for the Witch-King, for example - he got stabbed right in the face, that'll kill anyone.

That's called a critical hit and a failed fortitude save :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-10-19, 12:52 PM
That's called a critical hit and a failed fortitude save :smallbiggrin:

While hit by "Bane: You And You Only"-weapon.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-19, 01:06 PM
Do the players want to be classic heroes?

Otherwise, make them work for Sauron! They could be evil, or neutral, and run around, doing his bidding. Conquering the world probably takes a lot of work.

Actually... If they do want the hero-bit, make them work for Sauron, anyway. Then give them the opportunity to backstab him via cunning and stealth.

He'll never know what hit him :smallamused:

yeah. I unfortunately can't do this. their parent also said "no evil." so that's out. plus I don't like evil campaigs anyway. not my style.

Paulus
2009-10-19, 01:10 PM
I think people are looking at this the wrong way.

Sauron is unkillable etc etc etc it's hopeless to fight him etc etc etc. Okay then, make him killable. I don't really see a problem here. You'll know what power level your players can handle after they've played for a while, when it comes time to fight Big Soury, stat him down to their level. The players won't care if you do this, they will just be happy to fight and hopefully beat him. They won't care if you are specifically true to the book or movie or whatever. They won't care if Soury could destroy an army or not, they want to fight him, so let them fight him. You are the Dm, Soury has nothing on you. Stat him yourself, keep it in the D&D rules, why bother going outside them? limiting your players? You're playing D&D with LotR's style not LotR with D&D style. Why over complicate it? That doesn't sound fun and when it stops being fun, it stops having any appeal. Especially for younger players.

Now, if you aren't comfortable with making Soury so weak without a reason, pull a DM trick, make a character from the book/film (whichever they like more) come alive and/or an item that strikes at soury and weakens him enough so the PC's can now take him on- possibly at the loss of his life or of the items one time use.

Either way remember not to outshine the players, and remember it's just a game, so have fun!

Solaris
2009-10-19, 01:30 PM
Now, if you aren't comfortable with making Soury so weak without a reason, pull a DM trick, make a character from the book/film (whichever they like more) come alive and/or an item that strikes at soury and weakens him enough so the PC's can now take him on- possibly at the loss of his life or of the items one time use.

Mm, deux ex machina. No. I recommend not doing that. It'll feel cheap and make the players feel cheated.

I'm with the crowd that's saying "Do it after the Fall, but before the destruction of the Ring." Or even better, do it after the destruction of the Ring. If you have them face Sauron manifested in physical form and they go at him in a straight-up fight, they should lose. There's nothing wrong with having your players play it smart, just don't bludgeon them over the head with the Dark Lord until they're ready to face him and imprison him once more.

BigPapaSmurf
2009-10-19, 01:51 PM
It's not that hard, just don't fight Sauron directly,

Personally I would do this...,
1)Start with the Hobbit storyline, the PCs can be hired by the Dwarves or recruited by Gandalf for the journey to Lonely Mountain. This can easily be a 3-5 session adventure. Trolls, Moria/saving Bilbo, Wargs/Orcs and finally defeating Smaug. It will only work if you rewrite the story a bit, can't have the PCs know exactly whats coming. Obviously they should not be allowed to kill Bilbo in his sleep and take his Mythril armor.

2) Their interactions with the major players like Gandalf should lead them to believe that they are no match for the truly scary things like a Balrog. Get them in an 'assissting the major players' mentality'. They can or should have no knowledge of Sauron whatsoever until you give them hints about it...Elfsong about a Dark Lord for example.

3) The time before the LOTR storyline can be filled with other thematic adventures, like having the Steward of Gondor hire them to find the Palantir or braving Fangorn for some reason or another. Spy missions to the southlands which lead to the discovery of the amassing armies, a mission to find the last of the line of Numinor and warn him, which will lead you into the LOTR adventures.

4) By now they should be strong enough to be on par with the likes of Legolas and Gimly, they could help the hobbits to Bree, help defend them at the Graveyard and Wethertop, Rush Frodo to the healers etc.

They should never be directly in contact with Sauron or need to.

Paulus
2009-10-19, 01:58 PM
Mm, deux ex machina. No. I recommend not doing that. It'll feel cheap and make the players feel cheated.

Then go with the first suggestion.

-\(o_O)/- *shrug*

Zeta Kai
2009-10-19, 02:44 PM
For the record, the old D&D Wiki has a number of usable monsters for a LotR campaign. Here are just a few of the more notable ones:

Balrog (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Balrog%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Barrow-Wight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Barrow-wight%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Eagle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eagle%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Ent (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ent%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Fell Beast (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fell_Beast%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Goblin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Goblin_Warrior%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Huorn (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Huorn%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Mūmak (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/M%C3%BBmak%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Nazgūl (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Nazg%C3%BBl%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Orc (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Orc_Warrior%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Uruk-Hai (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Uruk-Hai_Warrior%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)
Watcher in the Water (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Watcher_in_the_Water%2C_LotR_%283.5e_Creature%29)

Delwugor
2009-10-19, 03:47 PM
This is doomed to failure.

Alternatively, watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU) or read this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612). :smallwink:

Warning DO NOT READ THIS BLOG AT WORK. Forget NSW, it was so %^^%( funny that I was almost in tears trying not to laugh out loud.

Love what happened to Gollum, we did something like that to an old GM. Lesson learned. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2009-10-19, 04:08 PM
I actually read this (DM of the Rings) after reading Darths and Droids- and I liked it.

Magnor Criol
2009-10-19, 09:27 PM
I'm not going to say whether you should or shouldn't do an LotR, that's been argued enough here. I'm just going to recommend, strongly, that if you do do LotR that you A) not try to reproduce the plot of the books, and B) above all else, DON'T let your players upstage, sidetrack, or otherwise debate with you about "they didn't do that in the story" or "that's not how they would have done it."

LotR is like Star Trek in that it's such an established and thoroughly defended creation, any deviation is likely to be met with resistance - so as long as any LotR nerds at your table think you're trying to reproduce the books, they're going to fight you every step you take that they don't agree with.