no monks?

[Acero]

i am not complaining, just wondering,

why haven't there been any monks? they are a very powerful class with some awesome abilities (leap of faith, qivering palm, rise of the pheonix)
and could provide alot of help. they were aupposedly monks in Azure city, but thwy all dissapeared somehow. i use a monk myself in DDO an find it the most entertaining class after playing as other (played all except favored soul)
and would love to see some in-comic

P.S. i know there was a monk in OOTPC's

[Eran of Arcadia]

Miko started out as a monk.

[Drider]

i am not complaining, just wondering,

why haven't there been any monks? they are a very powerful class with some awesome abilities (leap of faith, qivering palm, rise of the pheonix)
and could provide alot of help. they were aupposedly monks in Azure city, but thwy all dissapeared somehow. i use a monk myself in DDO an find it the most entertaining class after playing as other (played all except favored soul)
and would love to see some in-comic

P.S. i know there was a monk in OOTPC's

Miko was a monk, but i don't believe there were any others with the monk class, but they don't make a lot of sense in some settings. I don't think a desert monastery full of monks will happen, and after that, we don't know where the environment will be.

[Killer Angel]

they are a very powerful class with some awesome abilities

Hehehe, good joke. Thanks for the laugh. :smalltongue:

[Acero]

Hehehe, good joke. Thanks for the laugh. :smalltongue:

dude, monks pwn. they aren't even HUMAN when they reach level 20

Miko started as a monk, but never used the skills. if anything, she was an uncentered level 1 monk

[Zevox]

Miko started as a monk, but never used the skills.
She used stunning fist (or rather, stunning kick, since her hands were always busy holding her swords) several times, actually. And evasion, in that incident with V fireballing a batch of Ogres.

And we did see one Monk auditioning for the party in OtOoPCs. Belkar sent him home crying. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

[MickJay]

dude, monks pwn. they aren't even HUMAN when they reach level 20

Many people will tell you that it's actually a bad thing, considering how everything that works against Outisders suddenly starts working on your monk, and many of the beneficial stuff that doesn't work on Outsiders stops working. As the majority of OOTSverse is low-optimised, monks would actually have their uses, but from powergaming perspective, monks are simply weak.

[Optimystik]

Many people will tell you that it's actually a bad thing, considering how everything that works against Outisders suddenly starts working on your monk, and many of the beneficial stuff that doesn't work on Outsiders stops working.

The type-change isn't that big a detriment; The only benefit to being humanoid I can think of that would matter is ability to be raised, and monks still get that. In exchange, you lose lots of disadvantages to being humanoid, such as charm and hold person.

The biggest disadvantage to that ability is requiring 20 levels of monk to achieve it :smallsigh:

[Turkish Delight]

The most sensible place to have run across lots of monks would have been in Azure City, dropped in with all the the rest of the mish-mash of Oriental stereotypes. Interesting that we didn't see so much as a single monk taking part in the defense of the city; all katanas and armor, no Bruce Lee.

[Freelance Henchman]

There WAS a monk that almost joined Roy's group in The Origin of PCs prequel book.

He got kicked out of the party by Belkar, who had no kind words at all for the prowess and usefulness of Monks as primary warriors.

[Berserk Monk]

dude, monks pwn. they aren't even HUMAN when they reach level 20

Miko started as a monk, but never used the skills. if anything, she was an uncentered level 1 monk

Level 2, she had evasion.

[Flickerdart]

The type-change isn't that big a detriment; The only benefit to being humanoid I can think of that would matter is ability to be raised, and monks still get that. In exchange, you lose lots of disadvantages to being humanoid, such as charm and hold person.

The biggest disadvantage to that ability is requiring 20 levels of monk to achieve it :smallsigh:
Enlarge Person goes pwooooooooo.....

[King of Nowhere]

I'm not a skilled powergamer, but in my experience monks can get almost invulnerable, thanks to high saving throws and good AC.
And their acrobatic abilities can be fun to play if you aren't always fighting in a dungeon.
Ok, at low levels they sucks more than everyone else, they need ludicrous stats to work, and a fighter type of the same level will mop the floor with them, and even if they hold better against casters, a good caster is likely to still defeat a monk, but they have cool abilities to play.
Just my two copper pieces...

[FoE]

And we did see one Monk auditioning for the party in OtOoPCs. Belkar sent him home crying. :smallbiggrin:

:belkar: There, there. It's not your fault that your class fails to achieve its basic design intent.

Now get out of here before a REAL man with a REAL class decides to change the definition of 'unarmed combat'.

[ThePhantasm]

Now that I think about it, I don't recall seeing any

Chipmonks
Monkeys
or Deep Fat Friars either.

Rich should really remedy this.

[Pyron]

:belkar: There, there. It's not your fault that your class fails to achieve its basic design intent.

Now get out of here before a REAL man with a REAL class decides to change the definition of 'unarmed combat'.

:miko: *runs off to cry*

[Thanatosia]

But.... four attacks!

[Kish]

they aren't even HUMAN when they reach level 20
They don't have to be human at level 1, either...

[InkEyes]

Miko wasn't a very good monk; she didn't even roleplay her obsessive-compulsive disorder properly! She was also a terrible detective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html).

To be fair though, half the population of Azure City could've been monks and we'd never know. Rich doesn't really bother labeling every NPC that walks on panel as a monk or not. You could easily assume that every person (unless otherwise stated) has at least one level in the monk class and live in that happy bubble for the rest of your life without any proof that you're wrong.

[Indon]

Hehehe, good joke. Thanks for the laugh. :smalltongue:

The OP cites the DDO version of the Monk class, which is actually quite powerful.

The comic just doesn't have too many Monk PC's involved in the area of the story. Sometimes that's just how things go down.

[Skorj]

The OP cites the DDO version of the Monk class, which is actually quite powerful.


DDO has two simple fixes which make all melee, and monks specifically, on par with pure wizards (really).

The whole "you lose 80% of your offense if you move more than 5 feet" thing is just gone. You always get your full attack cycle, even if you're constantly running (just at -4 to hit IIRC).

The 15-minute day is dead in DDO. There is so much combat between opportunities to rest that casters use wands for many fights, and clerics use wands for a lot of the healing. Wizards and sorcs are about amazing burst "damage" (well, mostly SoLs of course, but anyhow) at strategically chosen moments, where melee is about continuous damage output.

The latter point can be made to work in PnP pretty well, IMO, if the DM just arranges for the 15-minute day to not be practical.

[The Extinguisher]

You know, if you gave monk's full BAB, they wouldn't be as terrible. Also, if you managed to roll all 18's, they rock.

[Brendan]

I play a lizardfolk Monk (hence the avatar), and I dealt, with one quarterstaff, 23 damage in one move, with average rolls and no crits at second level. This killed two goblins and very badly wounded a (i can't remember their name but the exude a stench). This was with enlarge person, though. This could easily down a third level fighter, as I had this for thirty rounds or so.

[FoE]

But.... four attacks!

To think, while the rest of us were having fun and talking to girls, you were off in the temple learning to use your "hands".

[Forbiddenwar]

A little off topic. Sparing match in my D&D group between a 5th level druid and her animal companion. And a 5th level monk.

The monk won without taking any damage.

[deuxhero]

The OP cites the DDO version of the Monk class, which is actually quite powerful.

What is DDO?

[Starbuck_II]

What is DDO?

Dungeon and Dragons Online: based on 3.5, but many improvements that should be in paper book.
Pallys can smite evil X/encounter (instead of X/day, okay it reads every 5 minutes but that almost same as once/encounter)
Full attacks can be done while moving, but with big penalty.
Etc.

[Darius1020]

Miko wasn't a very good monk; she didn't even roleplay her obsessive-compulsive disorder properly! She was also a terrible detective (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html).

I get it! :smallbiggrin:

[Foryn Gilnith]

Monks in D&D base can use unarmed strikes well when in armor. DDO monks can't.

Monks in DDO get (just going by the Compendium; haven't bought monk yet) debuffs (partial-stop casting, blindness, paralysis, etc.); buffs (stun immunity/concealment/cheaper spells to the party)

Rise of the Phoenix is a Raise Dead effect. Takes a big chunk of your HP and stuff, though.

[Sholos]

A little off topic. Sparing match in my D&D group between a 5th level druid and her animal companion. And a 5th level monk.

The monk won without taking any damage.

Was the druid allowed to use spells and/or lethal damage? Was the animal companion allowed to use lethal damage? If not, that would probably be the reason the monk didn't take any damage.

[Inhuman Bot]

Was the druid allowed to use spells and/or lethal damage? Was the animal companion allowed to use lethal damage? If not, that would probably be the reason the monk didn't take any damage.

I'm guessing the monk was using loaded die/the druid was sleeping.

[Logalmier]

dude, monks pwn. they aren't even HUMAN when they reach level 20

Mr. Monk, let me introduce you to the Malconvoker...:smalltongue:

A level 20 Monk, a Malconvoker, and Greater Planar Binding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126163)

[Acero]

Rise of the Phoenix is a Raise Dead effect. Takes a big chunk of your HP and stuff, though.

perfect dramatic sacrifice

[derfenrirwolv]

The monk is, by 3.5 rules, kind of hard to fit into a group. They're a little bit of everything. A little rogue, a little fighter. Those roles are already being filled. In addition most of the personality types you can do with a monk (extreme lawfulness) have already been taken for good (durkon) or ill (it that must not be mentioned)

Combat wise.. yes they have some design issues. Their key advantage is mobility, but their main combat ability (hitting things) requires them to stand still.

[Acero]

Their key advantage is mobility, but their main combat ability (hitting things) requires them to stand still.

that got removed

[kpenguin]

In DDO, perhaps, but not in OotS.

[derfenrirwolv]

that got removed

In d&d online or whatever you're playing, but the ootsverse is still (mostly) going by 3.5 rules.

[Acero]

they are based on the same universe.
if nothing states that i am wrong or right, it is a matter of opinion and the set of circumstances

[krossbow]

ddo monks aren't even really close to the same class as normal d&d monks. they function much like a warblade from tome of battle mixed with the monk's base unarmed damage capabilities.


in normal duneons and dragons, monks are great mooks, since they suck so much.

[Acero]

in normal duneons and dragons, monks are great moons, since they suck so much.

sorry, not a big DnD board gamer...whats a moon?

[Ozymandias9]

they are based on the same universe.
if nothing states that i am wrong or right, it is a matter of opinion and the set of circumstances

Rational observation states that you are wrong. The mechanics of the comic have pointed out the 5 foot step before. There's even a pot shot at MMOs in while we're seeing Greysky. We've also gotten references to sourcebooks, which are irrelevant to the online game.

Moreover, there's the simple fact that the comic predates DDO by 3 years, and we've seen no evidence that it's basis has changed.

[Acero]

Rational observation states that you are wrong.

indeed...my lack of caring to fact check makes me do that a lot
but in the illogical world we live in (it has no source book)
nothing is truly wrong or right.

[kpenguin]

Now you are simply dodging the issue. What made you think that the universe that the game and the comic are based on are the same? Have you seen warforged running around in the comic? Seen a reference to the city of Stormreach?

[krossbow]

sorry, not a big DnD board gamer...whats a moon?

haha, horrible typo, sorry. i mean "mooks" not "moons"
mooks being redshirts for the heroes to mow down.

[derfenrirwolv]

they are based on the same universe.
if nothing states that i am wrong or right, it is a matter of opinion and the set of circumstances

Uhm.. no. DDO is about one step up from "my little brothers homebew prestidge class" which is one step up from neverwinter nights as far as being official goes. You can't expect everyone to base their opinions on it as if they're adhering to it.

[Souhiro]

Well, Monks at low level are stuck with a weak 1D6 damage dice. When I had one, I was about grabbing a sword in order to do some decent damage.

But then, the Lv-5 come. Sure, the barbarian and his Greatsword were badass, but a monk can hit easily his flurry, and do some greater damage; and all his hits are magic damage! (Ki Strike) The barbarian can be terrific, but the Monk is still there.

But at high levels, the monk start to be badass. Inmune to all poisons, greater flurry... and the Diamond Soul!

Xykon: Mwahaha! Energy Drain!
Monk: Come, get some.

Sure, they have stupid things (¿Abundant Step? At lv 11 all they get is an stupid Lv4 Spell!!) And they seems to have suffered one of these stupid methods of balancing that destroys the class completly, like the Sorcerers (They should have the attack of a fighter, or D10 Hit Dices)

[Freelance Henchman]

Moreover, there's the simple fact that the comic predates DDO by 3 years, and we've seen no evidence that it's basis has changed.

Maybe OOTS converted to WOW rules without anyone noticing? Though I didn't see any "gold farmers" in Azure City...

[Katana_Geldar]

:belkar: Well, it's hardly their fault their classes fails to reach it's basic design intent.

[Jagos]

No, we already did that joke...

[Foryn Gilnith]

d20 modern is "based on the same universe" as our actual universe.
DDO is "based on the same universe" as D&D 3.5/OotS

You can reliably survive a low-caliber bullet shot in d20 modern. Try that in real life.

[Sholos]

d20 modern is "based on the same universe" as our actual universe.
DDO is "based on the same universe" as D&D 3.5/OotS

You can reliably survive a low-caliber bullet shot in d20 modern. Try that in real life.

Depends on where it hits you and how quickly you receive medical attention. That said, there's a lot of people who get shot and survive. There's also a lot of people who don't, of course.

[Souhiro]

I survived.

But I was wearing my bulletproof vest (Yes, I was a militar then)

[krossbow]

Well, Monks at low level are stuck with a weak 1D6 damage dice. When I had one, I was about grabbing a sword in order to do some decent damage.

But then, the Lv-5 come. Sure, the barbarian and his Greatsword were badass, but a monk can hit easily his flurry, and do some greater damage; and all his hits are magic damage! (Ki Strike) The barbarian can be terrific, but the Monk is still there.

But at high levels, the monk start to be badass. Inmune to all poisons, greater flurry... and the Diamond Soul!

Xykon: Mwahaha! Energy Drain!
Monk: Come, get some.

Sure, they have stupid things (¿Abundant Step? At lv 11 all they get is an stupid Lv4 Spell!!) And they seems to have suffered one of these stupid methods of balancing that destroys the class completly, like the Sorcerers (They should have the attack of a fighter, or D10 Hit Dices)


go punch a dragon and see how well that turns out for ya'

[Steward]

I'm guessing the monk was using loaded die/the druid was sleeping.

That sounds pretty hard. Unless the Monk was actually a reflavored Cleric playing an LA +0 Tarrasque or something....

[Omergideon]

I cannot comment on normal DnD monks, however in the Neverwinter Nights games monks are my favourite class to play. Most powerful, I do not know, but I am not a magic sort of guy. Specifically I would play a dwarven monk, dump my charisma and he generally rocked.

Specifically he was a great anti-caster guy to use. Especially in the 2nd expansion when your equipment is robbed and you can't afford anything better. Anyways, for Neverwinter 2 I took a monk, got him to level 20, made sure I had circle kick, great cleave and improved flurry on and he truly kicked ass. The high movement speed, innate magical resistance, evasion, truly obscene damage levels and immunity to so many sorts of mind control spells made him great to play. I never had a problem with the monk.

So I wonder why they are so poor a choice in DnD. Is it just that other guys are better at everything (CoDzilla and batman wizards) or do they just have innate problems?

[BatRobin]

Before the ninja invasion, Kazumi and Daigo referred to their baby as 'our little monk'.


Birth will be soon, and maybe they'll raise him as a monk?

[Flickerdart]

NWN and NWN2 have significant differences from the real game.
1. Casters are nerfed to the point where direct damage becomes the best choice. Effective range is also nerfed, which sucks for DD.
2. Power Attack is nerfed and there is no charging, screwing over Fighters.
3. Monks get a TON of magical boots, robes and gauntlets only they can use. UMD that stuff onto a Rogue, and you're insane.
4. NWN and NWN2 send a lot of mooks at you, and they have hideous AI. NWN2 especially is easy as all hell, even Monks do fine.

[Katana_Geldar]

I will say this, monks ARE starting to look slightly better in 4E, we will have more answers once PHB3 comes out

[Zevox]

Before the ninja invasion, Kazumi and Daigo referred to their baby as 'our little monk'.


Birth will be soon, and maybe they'll raise him as a monk?
...okay, lets forget for just one moment that that comment was obviously an offhand joke referencing how the baby was "kicking" in the womb, a common occurrance. How, pray tell, would two warriors - not even fighters, mind you, but the NPC warrior class - raise a child as a monk? That makes no sense whatsoever.


So I wonder why they are so poor a choice in DnD. Is it just that other guys are better at everything (CoDzilla and batman wizards) or do they just have innate problems?
Some of both. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards definitely dominate in normal D&D, beyond what a Monk could hope to achieve, but the Monk has built-in problems too.

The biggest and most obvious is MAD - multiple ability dependency. Monks require good or high scores in three abilities (strength, dexterity, and wisdom), an at least decent score in a fourth (constitution), prefer to have an average or better score in a fifth (intelligence), and only have one stat they can safely ignore (charisma). They need strength to do good damage and make up for their mediocre bab. They need dexterity and wisdom to have a good AC, and wisdom for special abilities like Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. They want constitution for hp (d8 HD is good, but won't cut it on its own). And they prefer a decent intelligence so they can actually take advantage of the variety of skills they can get. And even charisma affects two of those skills - diplomacy and perform.

Meanwhile, until the highest levels, they will never be as good at what they do as other, more specialized classes. At sneaking, tumbling, and other such dexterous combat, Rogues beat them, hands down, because they have other abilities that complement those, such as Sneak Attack. At melee combat, Fighters, Barbarians, and even Paladins beat them, hands down.

Those other warrior types have easier access to better abilities both in terms of melee capabilities and AC. Where other fighters get full bab, monks get only mediocre bab. Where other fighters can pick up a +1-+5 weapon and get an instant attack and damage bonus, monks need to get the very expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists to acquire the same benefits, and in so doing give up the chance to wear an Amulet of Natural Armor or Amulet of Health. Where other fighters can use Power Attack to boost their damage sky high, monks cannot unless they're wielding a quarterstaff, in which case they lose the unarmed-based benefits of their class, and with only mediocre bab monks are at an additional inherent disadvantage when it comes to using that feat anyway. And in terms of AC, just to have the same AC at low levels as a fighter in full plate with 12 dexterity, a monk needs 20 in either dexterity or wisdom and 18 in the other; to equal the benefits of +5 full plate, a high-level monk needs bracers of armor +8 and a 20 wisdom (though he does then get the chance to exceed the fighter's dex to AC, but is probably at a further disadvantage due to the aforementioned Amulet of Mighty Fists vs Amulet of Natural Armor problem).

Long story short, everything a monk can do, another class can do better. Kinda like Bards, except they're not that bad. The best benefits that monks get that other classes don't are Diamond Soul (spell resistance, very nice) and flurry of blows, and the latter has the problem that those extra attacks all need to hit to be worth it (which can be a problem with the monk's mediocre bab and the need for the expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists to gain magic attack bonuses, not to mention that lower level monks suffer a -2 or -1 penalty to their attacks when using flurry of blows), and in any event if they do they might still not add up to as much damage as a power attacking fighter can do.

Zevox

[Tavar]

Not arguing about your analysis of monks, but Bards can actually be decent, especially if you have access to non-core materials. In melee heavy parties, the Inspire Courage boost is good, and the Dragon Fire Inspiration can be brutal. Plus, they get unique abilities that mesh well together, unlike monks...

[Bibliomancer]

Long story short, everything a monk can do, another class can do better. Kinda like Bards, except they're not that bad. The best benefits that monks get that other classes don't are Diamond Soul (spell resistance, very nice) and flurry of blows, and the latter has the problem that those extra attacks all need to hit to be worth it (which can be a problem with the monk's mediocre bab and the need for the expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists to gain magic attack bonuses, not to mention that lower level monks suffer a -2 or -1 penalty to their attacks when using flurry of blows), and in any event if they do they might still not add up to as much damage as a power attacking fighter can do.

Zevox

Specifically, both Monks and Bards are in-between roles. However, the difference is, Bards are designed to be really good at one thing (Cha-based skills) and fairly good at other things in such a way that complements the strengths of other classes. Monks just try to be like two or three class roles at once. A Bard can help a rogue, a monk ends up competing. A bard can boost a fighter, a monk can provide a flanking bonus, sometimes. And so on. Also, Bards only really need Charisma and Dexterity, although Constitution's always useful.

[Zevox]

Not arguing about your analysis of monks, but Bards can actually be decent, especially if you have access to non-core materials. In melee heavy parties, the Inspire Courage boost is good, and the Dragon Fire Inspiration can be brutal. Plus, they get unique abilities that mesh well together, unlike monks...
True, but I tend to analyze by strictly core materials. I'm sure that with the proper non-core materials, most anything can be broken several times over.

And yeah, in response to both Tavar and Bibliomancer, Bards can be decent at providing a passive boosts and buffs to the party, but that is mainly useful in large groups. If you only have a party of 3 or 4, you generally do not want a Bard. And even in larger groups, other classes still contribute more than a Bard does - the Bard just happens to have a role it can fulfill without necessarily competing with others, the way a monk does.

Zevox

[Aquillion]

Kinda like Bards, except they're not that bad.Bards are actually not as a bad a class as everyone says they are. In core they're a bit weak, but their spell list isn't terrible and makes them excellent at using wands in emergencies; they have an excellent skill list and are nearly as good as a rogue in that respect, and so forth. They're very good for social and diplomatic situations where, for instance, sneaking, social rolls, illusions and so forth can all be used together effectively. They're also good at supporting whatever gap you need filled -- they can sneak alongside the rogue and provide some limited magical support; they can spam silence or dispel magic at the enemy so the real casters can focus on the bigger spells, and so forth. (They dispel at full CL, too, unlike Rangers and Paladins.)

They're less useful in dungeon grinds, though they can still contribute.

But more importantly, outside of Core they get some very strong PRCs and feats, capable of turning them into a decent caster, fighter, or whatever else you want while still retaining a significant measure of their versatility. They still can't compete with true full casters, but who can? Optimization experts generally rate the Bard as one of the higher core non-full-casters, partially because it's so good at qualifying for feats and PRCs that can build on its capabilities.

Monks, on the other hand... the biggest issue with monks is that defense sucks as a strategy. A party has to be able to work together, and its defense is only as strong as its softest member. If you put a fighter and a wizard together, the fighter can quickly kill anything that gets too close to them, while the wizard can use buffs / debuffs to keep enemies from doing much damage to the fighter. Everyone contributes as part of the group.

If you put a monk and a wizard together, though, the monk won't be able to do enough damage to keep up, so (unless they're optimized enough to carry it on their own or something) the wizard will have to retreat and the monk will end up having to run too.

The monk has lots of high defenses, but those don't help him contribute to the team, so he sucks -- high defenses only help you if you have a way to force the enemy to hit you instead of your teammates (as in 4e.) It doesn't do the Monk any good to be the last one standing against a bunch of monsters that he can't do enough damage to kill on his own, does it?

[kpenguin]

Bards are the best at diplomancy, I thought?

[The Glyphstone]

They're CHA primary and have access to Glibness as a spell. A Rogue could UMD a wand of Glibness and also pump Cha, but he would get less from the stat otherwise. So a Rogue and Bard are equally good diplomancers, but the Bard will, as a result, be better at other things too, whereas the rogue (slightly) impairs his other roles to focus on a secondary stat like Cha.

[Bibliomancer]

Bards are the best at diplomancy, I thought?

I thought rangers or warblades were best at diplomacy due to the ability to substitute jump for diplomacy, just like 2 kalashtar can have a dance-off to determine combat bonuses relating to morale before fighting each other.

[derfenrirwolv]

I thought rangers or warblades were best at diplomacy due to the ability to substitute jump for diplomacy, just like 2 kalashtar can have a dance-off to determine combat bonuses relating to morale before fighting each other.

Ok, D&D online has OFFICIALLY gone too far... :smallwink:

[Scarlet Knight]

...okay, lets forget for just one moment that that comment was obviously an offhand joke referencing how the baby was "kicking" in the womb, a common occurrance. How, pray tell, would two warriors - not even fighters, mind you, but the NPC warrior class - raise a child as a monk? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Zevox

The way all monks are raised... by being handed over to a monastary.

[Zevox]

The way all monkis are raised... by being handed over to a monastary.
But that's not Kazumi and Daigo raising him, then. And it'd still be ludicrous to make the assumption that a remark like that would mean they intend to send him to a monastery to become a monk.

Zevox

[Eran of Arcadia]

"Boomer" Esiason got his name from kicking his mom in utero, yet when he went on to become an American Football player, he was a QB, not a kicker. Same thing.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Unfortunately, no matter what you do, the monk is not going to win in this message board. Belkar was right, they do fail to achieve their basic design intent, that being to hit stuff it it go boom. Sure at some point they can do X number of attacks, and with a dex specialization they can do some decent damage. But, most of the time, they can't overcome a creature's DR, they can't hit it's AC, or the creature has tons more HP than the monk, so yeah. Monk go splat. For the character class that was designed to be a loner/survivor, they need help more than any of the other classes.

--from your friendly Melee Fanboy in the Playground,
QO

[derfenrirwolv]

Just because the baby on a doorstep monk is so common doesn't mean thats the only way that it happens. They could ship him/her off to monk school when he's 14 and going through a rebellious period, or he could want to become a monk despite dads objection to the classes weaknesses and send himself to the temple.

[Kurald Galain]

They could ship him/her off to monk school when he's 14 and going through a rebellious period, or he could want to become a monk despite dads objection to the classes weaknesses and send himself to the temple.

...or he could be bitten by a radioactive monk...

[Talya]

But more importantly, outside of Core they get some very strong PRCs and feats, capable of turning them into a decent caster, fighter, or whatever else you want while still retaining a significant measure of their versatility. They still can't compete with true full casters, but who can?

Well, except for the PrC that turns the bard into a full caster, with a somewhat better Spells Known selection than a sorcerer has. (Sublime Chord.)

[Optimystik]

Enlarge Person goes pwooooooooo.....

But Expansion doesn't, and psionics make more sense for a monk anyway. :smalltongue:


NWN and NWN2 have significant differences from the real game.
1. Casters are nerfed to the point where direct damage becomes the best choice. Effective range is also nerfed, which sucks for DD.
2. Power Attack is nerfed and there is no charging, screwing over Fighters.
3. Monks get a TON of magical boots, robes and gauntlets only they can use. UMD that stuff onto a Rogue, and you're insane.
4. NWN and NWN2 send a lot of mooks at you, and they have hideous AI. NWN2 especially is easy as all hell, even Monks do fine.

In addition to the above; no flying or teleportation (nerfing casters more), very limited summoning, limited metamagic, no improved spell capacity (i.e. no slots past 9th), crappy PrCs, and weak epic spells. On the plus side, there's no need to track material components (even expensive ones) or holy symbols, and weather/non-damage spells doen't interfere with casting. They are meager advantages, but advantages nonetheless.

[Scarlet Knight]

But that's not Kazumi and Daigo raising him, then. And it'd still be ludicrous to make the assumption that a remark like that would mean they intend to send him to a monastery to become a monk.

Zevox

Hmmmm, can't send him to the monastary....parents are wrong class...what to do...HA! Mail order scrolls!

:smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

that[/I] bad.

As others have pointed out, in a five man party a Bard starts to be really useful (people BADLY underrate the value of a +1 to hit IME, bardsong stacks with almost everything and lasts the entire battle with an action you can spend prior to battle start). In a five man party a Monk is GUARANTEED to be useless. Anything he can do three other people can do better.

As you pointed out they have bad MAD and serious item problems, but they have two other big problems.
1) They're a melee class with medium BAB and nothing as good as sneak attack (no flurry isn't that good).
2) Their two biggest types of bonuses are totally incompatible. Monks get lots of movement powers, and they get lots of attacks that can ONLY be used if they don't move (great).

There's also the point that the SR that appears to be the class's alleged good point at high level resists healing and buffs from your party members unless you shut it off, and I think that takes a standard action (wonderful).

Allow Flurry as a standard action and give full BAB and they're almost decent. Throw in 6 skill points a level and they'd be a fairly solid class for something that's not a full caster, but that's an aweful lot I'm adding to reach "doesn't suck any worse than the fighter".

[osaka40]

...okay, lets forget for just one moment that that comment was obviously an offhand joke referencing how the baby was "kicking" in the womb, a common occurrance. How, pray tell, would two warriors - not even fighters, mind you, but the NPC warrior class - raise a child as a monk? That makes no sense whatsoever.


Umm, what makes you think Daigo and Kazumi are NPC Warriors? Even if they may have been in the past, and that is not exactly a given, that doesn't mean they are now.

Daigo for instance is to my mind "clearly" taking his current level (6th, I believe) in monk. Being an easterner, he has the oriental monk's stereotypically shaven head, he has the oriental monk's stereotypical robes (although the fact that nobody else wears them does reinforce the rarity of monks in OotS), and thinks his his child will be a monk just like him. But to me, the clincher, as shown in 644, is that he is obsessed with the number of attacks per rounds he gets, just like every other monk D&Der out there.

[rewinn]

i am not complaining, just wondering,

why haven't there been any monks?
There were at least two monks in the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) (the ones in hooded robes) ... also seen among the ghost-martyrs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).

Among the regular troops, they might have been quite rare, as average trooper makes an ok fighter but isn't cut out to be a monk.

[Keris]

There were at least two monks in the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) (the ones in hooded robes) ... also seen among the ghost-martyrs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html).
Where does it say that they are monks? Because they're certainly mid-level paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).

[Zevox]

Umm, what makes you think Daigo and Kazumi are NPC Warriors?
...maybe the fact that that's the class that NPC soldiers take? That characters like them are the exact reason that the class exists to begin with?

As for the rest, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the quotation marks around "clearly" in that first sentence indicate you were being sarcastic and mocking some of the stupid, baseless assertions that get made around here in the many random speculation threads.

Zevox

[osaka40]

...maybe the fact that that's the class that NPC soldiers take? That characters like them are the exact reason that the class exists to begin with?

As for the rest, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the quotation marks around "clearly" in that first sentence indicate you were being sarcastic and mocking some of the stupid, baseless assertions that get made around here in the many random speculation threads.

Zevox

Re your first part, no, NPC soldiers are not automatically Warriors. Some NPCs certainly are warriors in OotS (such as the 6 levels of warrior that the late Police Chief had), but some are clearly not. For example, the Sapphire Guard are all NPCs, and are all soldiers (since they serve in the military) but I doubt *any* of them are D&D Warriors. "Warrior" is for nameless mooks. Like our beloved Police cheif - nameless, and doomed to die, despite him being very much a "character". Oh, and not a soldier, either.

Kazumi and Daigo are neither.

They are no longer nameless, and they clearly aren't mooks any more either. (Although IMO the whole premise of the Warrior class is grossly flawed, but then again, I don't play D&D any more for reasons like this)

Re your second part, the quotes are there to indicate what is "clear" to me may not be clear to others. If being sarcastic is giving the the "benefit of the doubt" I not sure I want to see what you would ascribe to me when not giving such a benefit. But you are right there are a lot of baseless speculation threads around. IMO the evidence for Daigo being a monk is quite strong, however.

[Wreckingrocc]

Sure, they have stupid things (¿Abundant Step? At lv 11 all they get is an stupid Lv4 Spell!!) And they seems to have suffered one of these stupid methods of balancing that destroys the class completly, like the Sorcerers (They should have the attack of a fighter, or D10 Hit Dices)Hahaha!

...

You're joking, right?

[Ozymandias9]

Re your first part, no, NPC soldiers are not automatically Warriors.

Kazumi and Daigo are neither.

While I do personally start with the premise that NPC soldiers are warriors when using default class fluff, we can probably infer that that is not the case for Azure City in general nor For Kazumi and Daigo in particular. While it wasn't a direct reference, Hinjo refered level 1 fighters against ghouls during the discussion of troop disposition before the Battle of Azure City. This indicates that he probably thinks of most of his troops in this fashion, and it seems reasonable to accept his impression as a good measure of the makeup of his forces. It's not ironclad cannon, but it stands up better than a default position of warrior.


(Although IMO the whole premise of the Warrior class is grossly flawed, but then again, I don't play D&D any more for reasons like this)

From game balance position, I'll admit that the warrior has issues: it's essentially a less powerful Fighter, and Fighter isn't powerful enough even under the play-test conditions of blaster mages and healer clerics (though it is less flawed under those conditions).

But in general, I like the warrior class; it can actually be used to make some interesting quasi-historical distinctions. If you're comparing it to fighter, it makes a useful contrast in skill. You can use that difference to highlight the degree of professional skill that the Greeks had over the Persians, Spartans to Helots, or even something as general as the difference between professional soldiers and militiamen. It allows you to make distinctions of combat skill without relying on level, which may inflate too fast and create a larger imbalance in a battle.

[Zevox]

Re your first part, no, NPC soldiers are not automatically Warriors. Some NPCs certainly are warriors in OotS (such as the 6 levels of warrior that the late Police Chief had), but some are clearly not. For example, the Sapphire Guard are all NPCs, and are all soldiers (since they serve in the military) but I doubt *any* of them are D&D Warriors. "Warrior" is for nameless mooks. Like our beloved Police cheif - nameless, and doomed to die, despite him being very much a "character". Oh, and not a soldier, either.

Kazumi and Daigo are neither.
Oh come on now, the Sapphire Guard were clearly indicated to be Paladins - they're by no means mere soldiers in the military, but members of an order of holy warriors. There's a big difference between that and being soldiers in the military.

And yes, Kazumi and Daigo were mooks. That they have since been named and given slightly more important positions in a subversion of the tropes surrounding nameless mooks does not change that. They were mere soldiers in Azure City's military. The only realistic options for their class are warrior or fighter, and given their low-rank NPC status, warrior is the logical conclusion. As I said, characters like them are exactly what that class exists for.


Re your second part, the quotes are there to indicate what is "clear" to me may not be clear to others.
...oh Great Cthulu, you were being serious then. All right, time to take this apart.


Being an easterner, he has the oriental monk's stereotypically shaven head, he has the oriental monk's stereotypical robes (although the fact that nobody else wears them does reinforce the rarity of monks in OotS),
This is utterly ridiculous. You're arguing that his appearance is evidence that he has changed classes. That's a completely baseless assumption. Moreover, all of Azure City are easterner-like in appearance, and the robes Daigo is now wearing is typical of eastern-style nobility, which he has just been promoted to, not of monks (see the monk from OtOoPCs - definitely a different style of robe from Daigo, mostly in that it does not go all the way over his legs, which would impede movement for a monk, but is meant to look elegant on nobility).


and thinks his his child will be a monk just like him.
This is even more ridiculous. As I mentioned earlier, that comment was a joke, referring to how the child is "kicking" in the womb, a common occurrence with pregnancies. It was in no way a serious remark about his beliefs in what his child would be like. You also added the "like him" when it does not exist at all in the comic.


But to me, the clincher, as shown in 644, is that he is obsessed with the number of attacks per rounds he gets, just like every other monk D&Der out there.
That was a joke. One any melee-oriented character might have made. Not a serious indication of Daigo's mindset. And even if it had, as mentioned, all melee-oriented characters care about how many attacks they get - that's their bread and butter combat method.

Seriously, there is absolutely no evidence for Daigo being anything but a warrior or fighter. How you could possibly believe that any of the above can be called evidence is completely beyond me.

Zevox

[Wreckingrocc]

...If he'd wanted more attacks, he'dve gone fighter or ranger and picked up some TWF.

I'll agree, that's pretty ridiculous reasoning. Robes would be a pretty bonehead garb for a monk; at the very least, they'd have many cuts to allow movement; his doesn't seem to fit that criteria.

I like how literally fans flock to jokes and take them as proof, too. xD

[krossbow]

Hahaha!

...

You're joking, right?

I think he meant the monk should have gotten those benefits, not the sorcerer. Thats a much more reasonable statement.

[Scarlet Knight]

And yes, Kazumi and Daigo were mooks. That they have since been named and given slightly more important positions in a subversion of the tropes surrounding nameless mooks does not change that. They were mere soldiers in Azure City's military. The only realistic options for their class are warrior or fighter, and given their low-rank NPC status, warrior is the logical conclusion. As I said, characters like them are exactly what that class exists for.

Zevox

It would be great if we eventually find out that Daigo's family name is Mook....

"Yes, Grandfather, tell us the story of how a Mook founded one of the great Noble houses..." :smallsmile:

[ChrisFortyTwo]

Umm, what makes you think Daigo and Kazumi are NPC Warriors? Even if they may have been in the past, and that is not exactly a given, that doesn't mean they are now.

Daigo for instance is to my mind "clearly" taking his current level (6th, I believe) in monk. Being an easterner, he has the oriental monk's stereotypically shaven head, he has the oriental monk's stereotypical robes (although the fact that nobody else wears them does reinforce the rarity of monks in OotS), and thinks his his child will be a monk just like him. But to me, the clincher, as shown in 644, is that he is obsessed with the number of attacks per rounds he gets, just like every other monk D&Der out there.

Plus, he has the escape artist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html) skill, and gets beat up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html) a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html) - he must be a monk!

[derfenrirwolv]

ALthough i will say, against a smart dm a monk does have a role as a party tank.

Fighter: Dominate, suggestion, charm person, etc will take them out in a hurry.

[Zevox]

It would be great if we eventually find out that Daigo's family name is Mook....

"Yes, Grandfather, tell us the story of how a Mook founded one of the great Noble houses..." :smallsmile:
Fortunately or unfortunately, we do know the first two letters of Daigo's last name. Da (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html). So it can't be Mook.

Zevox

[krossbow]

ALthough i will say, against a smart dm a monk does have a role as a party tank.

Fighter: Dominate, suggestion, charm person, etc will take them out in a hurry.

a swift punch will usually take out the monk just as fast. Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129171)for why a monk will NOT make a good party tank.

[Doug Lampert]

a swift punch will usually take out the monk just as fast. Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129171)for why a monk will NOT make a good party tank.

Basically, a 3.x monk is clearly intended to be a melee striker in 4th ed terms.
Their main class features are aimed at close with the enemy and make lots of attacks to do lots of damage.

This is a fine idea.

Unfortunately....

In 3.x you CAN'T close and make lots of attacks without Pounce, and there's no way in core for a monk to Pounce.

They make lots of attacks, which miss because their BAB sucks and the aren't using a magic weapon and their strength is low because they have insane MAD (and at low levels they have Flurry penalties to make sure they miss before the BAB discrepency becomes significant).

And if they do manage to hit their high damage dice totally fail to make up for not having magic weapons or high strength or two handed power attack.

They fail at their basic design goal. They're still VERY good at staying alive, the monk will be the last one killed in the TPK that results from the party having to drag along an albatros called a monk. But they can't tank because their single opportunity attack isn't going to stop an enemy from ignoring them and going around and their HP and AC don't come close to matching an actual tank.

[Acero]

so far, i believe everyone is saying that the monk is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. agreed?

[Kurald Galain]

so far, i believe everyone is saying that the monk is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. agreed?

It would seem that many people are saying the monk is a jack of no trades.

(for comparison, the bard is a jack of all trades, in that he can do multiple things and is quite good at most of them; the monk, otoh, can do multiple things but sucks at most of them).

[Acero]

It would seem that many people are saying the monk is a jack of no trades.

(for comparison, the bard is a jack of all trades, in that he can do multiple things and is quite good at most of them; the monk, otoh, can do multiple things but sucks at most of them).

okayyy. monk=bard w/ a stronger foucs to melee instead of songs

[good_lookin_gus]

okayyy. monk=bard w/ a stronger foucs to melee instead of songs and arcane spellcasting and skillmonkeying

Fixed that for you.

[Stormthorn]

The problem with monks isnt with monks so much as their not being enough cool feats and stuff for monks.

A lvl 10 monk using his fists without taking into consideration stats or feat or magic will do an average of 5.225 damage with a full round attack against AC 20.
A fighter with a greatsword will do 5.95.

The problem arises when you get feats that let fighters do four times that damage and you stick magic on his sword like +3 flaming shocking keen which you cant do to a monks fists.

If OOTS-verse isnt optamized then a lack of monks is just a style choice. If it is then the lack of monks is because by this level the fighter would be doing 100 more points of damage with his 30 str and leaping shock trooper power attacks or whatever. I dont really know all the stuff people use to minmax.

[rewinn]

Where does it say that they are monks? Because they're certainly mid-level paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html).
Their garb and equipment ... the robe with cowl covering face is how The Giant draws Azure City monks. Look at the early Miko drawings.

If you think not, tell me what they are ... and it must be consistent with Miko.

he has the escape artist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html) skill, and gets beat up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html) a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html) - he must be a monk!

Even low-level monks have no saving throw against the Need for Comic Relief.


Fortunately or unfortunately, we do know the first two letters of Daigo's last name. Da (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html). So it can't be Mook.

Zevox
It must be Da Mook!

"A buncha Da Mooks are running the city!"

[Kish]

Their garb and equipment ... the robe with cowl covering face is how The Giant draws Azure City monks. Look at the early Miko drawings.

If you think not, tell me what they are ... and it must be consistent with Miko.[/I]
Former citizens of Azure City.

What? You can't say that's not consistent with Miko. We saw the robe with cowl covering the face twice. Once, it was Miko, who considered herself almost entirely paladin. The second time, it turned out to be Belkar, after Elan had guessed, based on the robe, "One of the paladins." If you must generalize that it's how Rich draws an Azure City class, that class should be something that begins with a p and ends with aladin, not monks.

(Note: I don't believe Kazumi and/or Daigo are paladins, or monks. Warrior is possible; fighter is more likely; and if I were forced to bet, I would bet on "had warrior levels converted into fighter levels when they revealed their names.")

[rewinn]

Former citizens of Azure City.

What? You can't say that's not consistent with Miko. We saw the robe with cowl covering the face twice. Once, it was Miko, who considered herself almost entirely paladin. The second time, it turned out to be Belkar, after Elan had guessed, based on the robe, "One of the paladins." If you must generalize that it's how Rich draws an Azure City class, that class should be something that begins with a p and ends with aladin, not monks.

(Note: I don't believe Kazumi and/or Daigo are paladins, or monks. Warrior is possible; fighter is more likely; and if I were forced to bet, I would bet on "had warrior levels converted into fighter levels when they revealed their names.")

We see a LOT of Azurite paladins, garbed according to their combat specialties: mostly fighter, sometimes wizard.

Elan's guess is funny because it's dreadfully wrong.

[Shale]

They're not paladins, they're nobles, and dressed accordingly. That's the major change they went through since the invasion, not some ridiculous epileptic tree about taking a level of monk.

[derfenrirwolv]

a swift punch will usually take out the monk just as fast. Please see this thread for why a monk will NOT make a good party tank.

a d8 is only 1.5 hp less than a d10. If you play a dwarf monk you'll make up most of the difference (and the movement penalty will dissapear as you level.. seriously.. does 50 or 60 feet make a difference?) At higher level play, no one dies from HP loss, you die from loosing a save or die spell.



While most monks go for a high str dex wis and con for a tank you can just do wis dex con and pick up weapon finesse.

[Acero]

While most monks go for a high str dex wis and con for a tank you can just do wis dex con and pick up weapon finesse.

i dont know ANY monks that use STR. not much is required to get WF, and no monk that i know uses a staff. really, its a piece of wood, usually decremental, with some kind of pretty piece of glass. a weapon casters use as backup should not be a primary weapon. (some casters dont even have staves, but wands)

[AshDesert]

Considering that this has essentially become a monk thread in the OOTS section, I'm very surprised that Roland hasn't closed this yet.

Also, I tend to think that Daigo and Kazumi were 5th level Warriors, who got those levels retroactively turned into 5 Fighter levels upon revealing their name (hence, Daigo gaining enough hit points from his shiny new d10 hit dice to suddenly go from dying to fully functional upon revealing his name), and are now Fighter 5/Aristocrat 1's (maybe 2's at this point), hence their new regal robes.

[krossbow]

Considering that this has essentially become a monk thread in the OOTS section, I'm very surprised that Roland hasn't closed this yet.

Also, I tend to think that Daigo and Kazumi were 5th level Warriors, who got those levels retroactively turned into 5 Fighter levels upon revealing their name (hence, Daigo gaining enough hit points from his shiny new d10 hit dice to suddenly go from dying to fully functional upon revealing his name), and are now Fighter 5/Aristocrat 1's (maybe 2's at this point), hence their new regal robes.



this is actually a ninja thread; its why its stayed hidden

[Tavar]

... are now Fighter 5/Aristocrat 1's (maybe 2's at this point), hence their new regal robes.
Your post is actually one of the better explanations of that scene, but considering that this is the same comic that had this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html), I wouldn't be sure about them having Aristocrat levels.

[omglolnub]

Yea, I have one player in my table top group who wants to be a monk and eventually a drunken master, and I knocked him into the negatives four times in our first session.

[derfenrirwolv]

dont know ANY monks that use STR. not much is required to get WF, and no monk that i know uses a staff. really, its a piece of wood, usually decremental, with some kind of pretty piece of glass. a weapon casters use as backup should not be a primary weapon. (some casters dont even have staves, but wands)

.. ok, once again, i do NOT play D&D online, i have no idea what works or doesn't work there. I don't know what they've done to the mechanics. Everything I'm answering for is in D&D 3.5

[Pharaoh's Fist]

a d8 is only 1.5 hp less than a d10. If you play a dwarf monk you'll make up most of the difference
Of course, you can't really have a high a Con as melee characters can, since you also have to put points in Wis, Dex, and Str. Maybe Int as well, as a Dwarf does not get bonus skill points.

If you did focus on Con, you'd have less AC, which is a bad thing. Either that or you have low strength, so you can't really do damage in melee... which makes you irrelevant.


At higher level play, no one dies from HP loss, you die from loosing a save or die spell.


Orb of Fire.


I'm just going to make a general statement for the thread: it is the consensus of the charop community that monks are one of the weaker classes. This is the opinion of many experienced optimizers. I believe it is true.

[derfenrirwolv]

Of course, you can't really have a high a Con as melee characters can, since you also have to put points in Wis, Dex, and Str. Maybe Int as well, as a Dwarf does not get bonus skill points.


sure you can. You assign your stats anyway you want to. A fighter needs str and con. A monk playing tank needs con dex and wis, just one other stat.



Orb of Fire.

Bite my touch ac :smalltongue:. And since most wizards don't take point blank and precise shot, all you need to do is stand next to one of his friends for a nice +8 bonus (effectively)




I'm just going to make a general statement for the thread: it is the consensus of the charop community that monks are one of the weaker classes. This is the opinion of many experienced optimizers. I believe it is true.

Yes, but the question is are they more gimpy than the fighter? Its the battle of the limp wristed all stars.

I think it depends on the campaign. Most DM's i know like to use spellcasters as big bad guys because they're more fun and more powerful. With that said the fighter has a big chink in his armor in the form of his will save that he can't do much about. The monk has a smaller problem with mad and a small HP problem that can be compensated for. The next time i play D&D i may try it if i get some realy good stats or a cluster of ok stats.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

sure you can. You assign your stats anyway you want to. A fighter needs str and con. A monk playing tank needs con dex and wis, just one other stat.
Ok. Now, how do you deal damage?



Bite my touch ac :smalltongue:. And since most wizards don't take point blank and precise shot, all you need to do is stand next to one of his friends for a nice +8 bonus (effectively)
Quicken True Strike. First level spell + Commonly taken metamagic feat. +20 to hit. Greater Heroism, +4 to hit, along with many other benefits. Should do.



Yes, but the question is are they more gimpy than the fighter? Its the battle of the limp wristed all stars.
Consensus says they're about the same. Fighters seem to tank as high tier 5 though, while monks are low or middle tier 5.


I think it depends on the campaign. Most DM's i know like to use spellcasters as big bad guys because they're more fun and more powerful. With that said the fighter has a big chink in his armor in the form of his will save that he can't do much about. The monk has a smaller problem with mad and a small HP problem that can be compensated for. The next time i play D&D i may try it if i get some realy good stats or a cluster of ok stats.
Monk also gets 3/4 BAB as a melee class, and must either use his unarmed strikes (can't power attack well with those; low damage output), monk weapons (which aren't great), or use martial or exotic weapons like the Spiked Chain that are good, but then what's the point of being a monk?

[Zevox]

sure you can. You assign your stats anyway you want to. A fighter needs str and con. A monk playing tank needs con dex and wis, just one other stat.
No, a Monk trying to play tank effectively needs str, dex, con, and wis. Lacking any one of those and he'll either lack damage output (str), AC (dex/wis), or hp (con). Whereas a Fighter can tank much better simply by wearing good armor, having average or mediocre dex, and pumping strength and con. Plus he gets the benefits of magical weapons and armor that the Monk either can't get or needs to give up his benefits to unarmed combat to use - all those dice damage boosts to unarmed attacks and ki strike vs DR benefits don't mean a thing if you're fighting with a +3 shocking burst holy spell-storing so-on-and-so-forth sickle or quarterstaff, but stick to the unarmed attacks and you can't get the benefits of any such enchantments. Not to mention no power attacking unarmed, or with any Monk weapons other than a quarterstaff, another advantage the Fighter enjoys over the Monk; plus 3/4 bab means not only lower attack in general, but inferior power attacking capability compared to a Fighter.

Basically, Monks can tank, if they have high enough stats (which basically requires them to be rolling stats and get pretty darn lucky or use a very high number point buy), but they'll never be as good at it or have as easy of a time of becoming good at it as a Fighter. Or Barbarian. Or Paladin. Or Ranger.

Zevox

[krossbow]

I think we can all agree that monks as they stand are even weaker than a fighter. so beating this dead horse gets us nowhere, as fun as it may be.


Most people know of many houserules that seemingly fix the class; the problem being that most of these houserules have different intents behind them, which highlights the most glaring flaw of the monk class.

NO FOCUS.

The monk is a tossed together, barely working monstrosity, not unlike frankenstein's monster. The developers were not able to seemingly agree on what it was that DEFINED a monk besides punching people, and so most of its class abilities have absolutely no synergy with one another.

[Nimrod's Son]

Their garb and equipment ... the robe with cowl covering face is how The Giant draws Azure City monks. Look at the early Miko drawings.

If you think not, tell me what they are ... and it must be consistent with Miko.
When Miko takes her hood down, her cape is identical to all the other paladins. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

There's nothing to suggest those hooded paladins in the throne room are monks. They're just paladins with their hoods up. It seems more likely that ALL paladins have hooded cloaks (but most wear them with the hood down) than that the ones seen wearing hoods must be monks.