Sudden Strike! (3.5 DnD)

[AtwasAwamps]

Another random and fairly silly question from me, I'm afraid.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to reliably use the ninja ability "Sudden Strike", which basically does sneak attack damage but ONLY when your opponent is denied its Dex-to-AC during your attack/Flatfooted (flanking doesn't count! ONLY lacking the Dex-to-AC makes your target vulnerable to sudden strike).

What are reliable ways of denying your opponent his dexterity bonus?

All books are available, though I would personally prefer avoiding Tome of Battle (just because I don't think anyone in my circle uses it and I don't want to spring it on them with no warning). I would also like ways focusing on class features/prestige classes/skills and skill tricks/feats rather than casting, though if there are good casting bonuses/gish builds that allow this, that would be pretty cool. Especially if they let me take fire shurikens.

HOORAY FIRE SHURIKENS.

[Eldariel]

Invisibility. Hiding in Plain Sight. Basically, attacking without the opponent detecting you. That and striking first on the first round of combt. It's like Sneak Attack except can't be used while Flanking. Sneak Attack (and Rogue in general) is so much better a Ninja than the Ninja-class.

[RagnaroksChosen]

i recomend going some sort of range attack it will be more reliable and if you can find a way to stay invis you should be good or for a ninja to boost wisdom so he has more invis/perday... also with the ninjas invisible ability multiple attacks do not break it...
so rapid shot and high bab is good.

[AtwasAwamps]

What about feint?

[Cieyrin]

Invisibility. Hiding in Plain Sight. Basically, attacking without the opponent detecting you. That and striking first on the first round of combat. It's like Sneak Attack except can't be used while Flanking. Sneak Attack (and Rogue in general) is so much better a Ninja than the Ninja-class.

Ninja has Ghost Step built in, which, it should be noted, doesn't end with attacks. You are invisible till the effect ends, whether that's one round later or 2 via Enduring Ki. So you can actually snipe fairly effectively as a Ninja with a Shortbow and Rapid Shot or going the Rapid Reload path with a Light Crossbow and deal slightly more respectable damage, since they aren't proficient with composite bows anyways. They probably don't have the Strength to take advantage of it if they did.

Now, this isn't to say that Ninja doesn't have it's problems (no Evasion till late? no Uncanny Dodge at all? Really?) but Rogue is probably still better in most respects.

EDIT: ninja'd.

As for Feint, it's not really that great unless you're sure you're going to be facing humanoids for the most part, at least early on. The penalties are pretty harsh till you can pump Bluff at higher levels.

A better skill to pump would be UMD to use wands of Grease to deny them Dex from being unsure of their footing. Unfortunately, UMD isn't a class skill for Ninjas (which makes little sense to me. Ninjas are supposed to be device users and not being able to is kinda lame in my book.)

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Zaq]

Feinting is an option, but it's a really inefficient one. If you don't have Improved Feint, you can only do it once every two rounds, and even if you do, it will still only get you a single attack. Just about the only way to make feinting worth it is to take the Invisible Blade prestige class from Complete Warrior (which eventually gets to feint as a free action) AND the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark, which makes your opponent flat-footed for the whole round if you hit them after feinting against them. Pretty much a poor choice in general, especially when you take into consideration the fact that Invisible Blade is a really expensive class in terms of prereq feats.

[SurlySeraph]

Yeah. If you ignore the errata saying that the Invisible Blade can only use the free action bluff once per round, it's more viable, but that's a houserule.

There's the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick from Complete Scoundrel, which lets you count an enemy as flat-footed if you tumble through his space, but it's once per encounter and doesn't let you get a full attack. If you're willing to use Tome of Battle, the Cloak of Deception maneuver lets you make your opponent flat-footed as a swift action (so you get a full attack).

[RagnaroksChosen]

O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round

[jokey665]

O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round

and only once per enemy IIRC

[Sinfire Titan]

O forgot... flick of the wrist gives you a flatfooted attack once a round

1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?

[jokey665]

1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?

flick of the wrist is a feat

[RagnaroksChosen]

1/encounter. That's a Skill trick, remember?


Negative...

Its once per round, per opponent, per combat.


Your thinking of hidden blade!

[Kaiyanwang]

Negative...

Its once per round, per opponent, per combat.


Your thinking of hidden blade!


Nevertheless, I think you can combine them, and add an ambush feat tha allow you to SS the next round.

So, if you start stealth with one attack, or with this feat, you could grant yourself the SS full attack in the next round. Sum with acrobatic backstab and you could reach 3-6 rounds of SS.

How optimal this could be depends from the power level of the group, I guess. Of course you swear twice than a rogue to slaughter someone, but I've to admit that the satisfation is maybe bigger :smallwink:

I suppose you should put your hand on any effect able to blind or add similar effects on the enemy. Dip in shadow hand could help, IIRC.

Blurstrike Weapons could help, too.

[Starbuck_II]

Anyone remember Grease and Sleet Storm? 5 ranks balance or Sudden Strike.

[Cieyrin]

Anyone remember Grease and Sleet Storm? 5 ranks balance or Sudden Strike.

I mentioned UMDing wands of Grease earlier, actually. 0_o

As for the ambush feat, it takes out a pretty significant amount of sneak dice to keep them vulnerable, so your mileage may vary on how worth it that is. Getting 5d6 sneak on one attack is probably better than 1d6 sneak across 2 or 3 attacks. Plus, it says you may sneak attack in the next round, not keep sneaking this round if you lose invis or whatever allowed you to, so it's a judgement call there, too.

[The Random NPC]

As for Prestige Classes, there is the Shadow Blade from Tome of Magic. Can't remember much of it, except thinking it was a more combat oriented version of Shadow Dancer.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I mentioned UMDing wands of Grease earlier, actually. 0_o

As for the ambush feat, it takes out a pretty significant amount of sneak dice to keep them vulnerable, so your mileage may vary on how worth it that is. Getting 5d6 sneak on one attack is probably better than 1d6 sneak across 2 or 3 attacks. Plus, it says you may sneak attack in the next round, not keep sneaking this round if you lose invis or whatever allowed you to, so it's a judgement call there, too.


Whats the ambush feat?

[AtwasAwamps]

Huh...I didn't realize that ghost step kept you invisible after attacks. Doesn't that mean that every attack you make against an opponent while under the influence of ghost step means that you can apply sudden strike dice to it?

Sorry, I am still new at mechanics.

[Fizban]

Someone was making a dual crossbow build a while back that used sudden strike. Dual hand crossbows+sudden strike+ghost step/improved invisibility+crossbow sniper (sneak attack up to 60')+ usual relaod tricks. Sudden strike on your whole full attack at decent range as long as they can't see invisibilty.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Huh...I didn't realize that ghost step kept you invisible after attacks. Doesn't that mean that every attack you make against an opponent while under the influence of ghost step means that you can apply sudden strike dice to it?

Sorry, I am still new at mechanics.

yes yes it does.

[The Random NPC]

Just got to the book, and the Shadowblade isn't really any better then just going full ninja and using ghost step.

[DragoonWraith]

Shadow Blade is a feat in ToB; are you thinking of the Shadow Sun Ninja?

I don't really know how to use that class. It's cool, but it's really bizarre and I feel like it would be really hard to actually play one.

[Bibliomancer]

Marbles also deny dex to AC unless 5 ranks in tumble and are cost-effective. I'm not sure where they're listed, though. Might be dragon magazine.

[Foryn Gilnith]

There are marbles in the Arms and Equipment Guide.
Shadowblade is from Tome of Magic. It's pretty weak, ya.

[Chrono22]

Just wanted to point this out- any type of concealment renders your SS or SA damage useless.
You might want to talk to your DM about altering that rule- I know I wouldn't be happy if one of my main class features was rendered useless by a single spell.

[jokey665]

Just wanted to point this out- any type of concealment renders your SS or SA damage useless.
You might want to talk to your DM about altering that rule- I know I wouldn't be happy if one of my main class features was rendered useless by a single spell.

It's no different than a fighter being rendered useless by "Fly." :smallamused:

[Chrono22]

It's no different than a fighter being rendered useless by "Fly." :smallamused:
Except, of course, that a fighter might be able to fly himself. In which case he's back to normal.. but if both the ninja/rogue and his opponent have concealment, the ninja/rogue is SOL.

[jokey665]

Except, of course, that a fighter might be able to fly himself. In which case he's back to normal.. but if both the ninja/rogue and his opponent have concealment, the ninja/rogue is SOL.

If the fighter can find a way to fly the ninja/rogue can find a way to true see.

[Chrono22]

If the fighter can find a way to fly the ninja/rogue can find a way to true see.
True seeing doesn't do squat against smoke or mist...

[jokey665]

True seeing doesn't do squat against smoke or mist...

gust of wind?

[Zaydos]

If the fighter can find a way to fly the ninja/rogue can find a way to true see.

I'd point out that fly is a 3rd level spell, not too hard to get. True seeing is a 6th level spell (5th for cleric) with expensive material component (250 GP) that means your wizard buddy probably won't be willing to cast it on you and magic items that grant it will be prohibitively expensive.

[Cieyrin]

Whats the ambush feat?

Persistant Attacker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Persistent_Attacker,CS).

[Darrin]

What are reliable ways of denying your opponent his dexterity bonus?


Someone has already mentioned marbles (A&EG p. 24). They work like caltrops, so they take a standard action to deploy. You can improve this by buying/training an animal with hands (monkey, ape, dire ape, etc.) to do this for you, which brings this down to a move action (handle animal check). You can improve it to a free action by getting a familiar/animal companion/wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to do it for you.

Grappling is another good way to deny someone their Dex bonus, and if you can't get get someone else in the party to grapple for you, you can train animals to grapple with the Pin trick (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a) or the Hold trick (Masters of the Wild p. 19). Something with Improved Grab such as a crocodile or one of the bears makes a good start, although you can buy a bunch of mules (large animal, +9 grapple check) for really cheap (8 GP each). Warbeasts (MM2 template) aren't that expensive, about 50-75 GP per HD, so a trained polar bear warbeast only costs 775 GP, and a trained dire bear warbeast (grapple check +23!) only costs 1075 GP.

You can be your own grappler by picking up Improved Grab yourself, either via Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian (CompChamp), Wildshape and/or Bear Warrior, Scaled Horror (Savage Species, use the Aquatic template in Stormwrack to qualify), or Scorpion's Grasp feat (Sandstorm). This gives you the option to consider yourself outside the grapple, allowing you to finish your full attack on a grappled target. Add a Blurstrike weapon, and so long as your first attack hits, all your attacks will get Sudden Strike damage.

Grease is always a favorite, but there are cleric and druid versions of it, and all three are available with one-level dips or UMD (use the Skill Knowledge feat in Unearthed Arcana/SRD to pick it up as a class skill if need be). If you don't want to ding up your BAB, Duskblade + Arcane Disciple + one of the Slime deities can add Grease to your known spells. Ghaunadaur (drow deity) has slime, and if you dig into some of the more obscure corners of the FR books, Moander (dead god of rotting) and Ilsensine (illithids) give access to the slime domain. For clerics, there's the Ice Slick spell (Frostburn, 20' square), and for tree-huggers, there's Path of Frost (Dragon Magic, a little harder to use).

Invisibility is good, but it can be difficult to keep up, and at higher levels there are too many counters (see invis, true seeing, blindsight/sense, tremorsense, lifesense, etc.). Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment feats can be extremely effective.

Outside of Ghost Step, the best way for a ninja to get sudden strike working is Blindness. There are a variety of alchemical/magic items that can blind, such as: Flash Pellets (Complete Arcane), Flashstone (Dragon Compendium, a little better than the CompArc version), Everbright weapons (MIC), Powder of the Black Veil (MIC). The absolute best blinding item is in Oriental Adventures. Eggshell grenade, dust version. A direct hit blinds the target for 1d4 rounds *no save*, and anyone else within 5' gets a Fort save.

If you're willing to dip a little deeper into a casting class, there are some great blinding spells. Glitterdust is always a favorite, but in the Spell Compendium take a look at Blinding Spittle (Druid 2). Ranged touch attack, -4 penalty, another *no save*. There's also the various fog/cloud spells, illusionary walls, and so forth. You can add the eggshell grenade to your full attack with the Rapid Shot feat.