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DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 02:14 PM
I'm doing a small Gestault game (only 3 people, rotating DMing)...

Anyway one of the players has Utility covered (Cleric/Bard)

The other is playing (Shaman/Druid)

I played a spell caster last endeavor so this time I want to be someone tough as nails...

I was thinking knight/Pally (evil variant)

Any other suggestions?

Also just to add to the fun, we are all evil and we are fighting in a post apocalyptic zombie world.

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 02:16 PM
Warblade//Psion

I would strongly recommend against pairing a melee class with another melee class, you would be sacrificing a lot of gestalt's power doing that.

Wings of Peace
2009-10-19, 02:25 PM
How optimized are you looking for and what style of tough as nails? I ask because if you wanted to just be pure damage I'd say go optimized Lion Totem Barb on one side and whatever you like on the other. If you want to be tough as nails utility however I'd say something like Fighter/Psychic Warrior mixed with some Sword Sage dip and some Telflammar levels combined with the Knock-Down feat would let you be a tripping beast with still reasonable hitpoints.

Edit: What books available btw?

DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 02:44 PM
Assume all books...I am trying to keep it simple though...The God Wizard I just made took most of my desire to optimize right out from under me...We start tonight and I have to make a character still.

The party position left is tank, I figure this will be simple in comparison to a caster, and give me a new perspective on the game...

I thought about wizard/duskblade or something...but I'd basically be my character from last game with AC and quickens...Very nasty, but very much like what I just did...My normal play style in RPGs is either control casting or healing...So I'm trying to do something new here and just be a meat shield..preferably a meatshield who deals substantial dmg. I'd play something like Barb/Knight but the alignments conflict...Barb/Fighter is what I'm really looking for, but I'm reluctant to do it just because of its rep for being insano.

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 02:50 PM
"Tank" is a really ... suboptimal way of playing, but ...

Druid// something would work. just grapple the hell out of whatever you want.

DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 02:53 PM
Can't take druid, it's already in use...that's another stipulation of our game...I'm last to choose and I can't take anything they have.

Taking a look at warblade right now..I wish they put hitdie and stuff online...all my books are at home.

Gnaeus
2009-10-19, 02:56 PM
Kylarra is exactly right. Gestalting double melee loses a lot of the power of gestalt.

Every good gestalt build should really diverge on the 2 sides. Knight doesn't give you much of anything that Pally can't already do. If you don't want to be a full caster (like Pally/Sorcerer, which works very well), maybe Pally/Warlock or Pally/Dragonfire Adept for some caster utility without having to keep up with a spell list. Pally/Rogue or Pally/Factotum would let you skillmonkey. Pally/Swordsage or warblade are also better than pally/Knight.

Depending on how your DM works level adjustments, things with LA or monster classes can also work well on one side of the equation. Draconic Pally is straight up better than Pally/Knight, for example, and Half Dragon Pally 3 is way better than pally3/Knight 3.

Riffington
2009-10-19, 02:56 PM
How "zombie" are the zombies? If it's not all undead, fighter/Barbarian//rogue does insane melee damage (you can tank with full sneak attack dice). You also get to be useful outside of combat with that combo since you have the rogue's skills...

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 02:56 PM
Sigh. I'll go back to recommending Warblade//Psion. Gestalting two martial classes is honestly just a waste.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-19, 02:57 PM
Can't take druid, it's already in use...that's another stipulation of our game...I'm last to choose and I can't take anything they have.

Taking a look at warblade right now..I wish they put hitdie and stuff online...all my books are at home.

They did. It was a previewed class. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 03:01 PM
How "zombie" are the zombies? If it's not all undead, fighter/Barbarian//rogue does insane melee damage (you can tank with full sneak attack dice). You also get to be useful outside of combat with that combo since you have the rogue's skills...

I assume they are going to be full blown zombies...there should also be other things to kill, but zombies will be a persistent theme.

DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 03:04 PM
They did. It was a previewed class. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

Ohh I see they hid it down there at the bottom... D12, that's nice...and scions can cast in armor, that's also very nice.

Only thing I'm worried about is that the DM of my last game gave this whole rant about how he won't DM Psionic characters..ext. None of us are very experienced players...So I'm not sure if the other guys will see it as me trying to be over powered :smallannoyed:

Kylarra
2009-10-19, 03:06 PM
Warblade//Archivist then :smallbiggrin:

Riffington
2009-10-19, 03:12 PM
I assume they are going to be full blown zombies...there should also be other things to kill, but zombies will be a persistent theme.


Only thing I'm worried about is that the DM of my last game gave this whole rant about how he won't DM Psionic characters..ext. None of us are very experienced players...So I'm not sure if the other guys will see it as me trying to be over powered

Hmm, then consider Fighter/Barbarian (or Warblade*)//Beguiler.
With Arcane wrath, you can funnel many of those beguiler spells into extra damage. But when social stuff comes up, you can do all kinds of fun things with the leftover spell slots. Since you're totally spontaneous, you never have to worry about picking spells or anything. And up against zombies... well, they never get to disbelieve illusions, so you can make them do all kinds of fun things.

*If people are inexperienced and are worried about overpowered, avoid warblade. It looks overpowered. Fighter/Barbarian is in reality just as strong, probably even stronger than warblade once you add in the gestalt thing. But the advantage of warblade is that it's just so much fun.

Edit: Fighter//Swordsage is just strong by the way.

Gnaeus
2009-10-19, 03:21 PM
What about Paladin//Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror). Evil paladin + DR. Take a reach weapon to hit people with but if they get close finish them with touch attacks. Make those zombies your slaves :-).

DudestMonk
2009-10-19, 04:03 PM
Warblade/Psion should be sick...Ran it by the guys, Don't think they care.

Any suggestions for a specialty?

Seer sounds good as does Shapper and Telepath

paddyfool
2009-10-19, 04:10 PM
It's a bit late as you've worked it out, but Warblade//Factotum or Warblade//Rogue would also work very well with the Int synergy and, in the latter case, sneak attack dice on top of all the nasty stuff Warblade dishes out.

Faleldir
2009-10-19, 04:14 PM
For extreme toughness and similar fluff, I suggest a Dread Necro// Crusader with Tomb-Tainted Soul and Battle Caster.

Zovc
2009-10-19, 04:48 PM
Duskblade//Beguiler could be cool.

Wings of Peace
2009-10-19, 04:56 PM
By any means necessary get a reach weapon, get the power Expansion, and take Improved Trip and Knock-Down. Do just that and you will be able to pin/tank/rock the world with reasonable competence. And that is just during AoOs. And that's assuming you don't pay a mage to cast Permanent Enlarge on you as well. :]

Edit: To this end I would like to toot the Psychic Warrior horn again as a secondary to Warblade. If you are aiming to be oriented towards tanking those bonus feats are going to open alot of nice options for you. Nothing wrong with Psion mind you but given what you are doing as a personal style choice I like the extra goodies I can get with Psychic Warrior. Especially since I'm not a big fan of the War-Blades bonus feat list :\

daken201
2009-10-19, 05:28 PM
i am playing a gestalt melee guy right now. he is Barb/warblade great sinergy with iron heart surge and frenzy berserker. or take goliath and the feat that lets you grow a size catagory when in rage and go barbarian/warblade and drop levels of warblade for warhulk paint yourself green and go around uttering the words "dont make me angry, you wouldent like me when i am angry"

the great thing about the goliath warhulk is that when you are not raging you dont have to deal with the no time to thing ability of the warhulk, cause you dont apply for the class anymore.

Charlie Kemek
2009-10-19, 06:32 PM
psychic warrior//cloistered cleric sounds fun. tons of wis synergy, bonus feats galore, 6+int skills, spells, psionics, expansion, divine power, etc. this thing would be beastly!

Wings of Peace
2009-10-20, 06:59 AM
psychic warrior//cloistered cleric sounds fun. tons of wis synergy, bonus feats galore, 6+int skills, spells, psionics, expansion, divine power, etc. this thing would be beastly!

Lets not forget a Monk's Belt or dip of Monk + a dip of Shiba Protector for Wis to AB, AC, and Damage :smallsmile:

Fluffles
2009-10-20, 09:15 AM
What template are allowed? Insectile is a great one if you are going for pure damage (6 arms lets you wield a 6 handed weapon to deal 2d6+(3.5*Str mod) with a Medium greatsword, no enhancements).

If you are allowed to be a genetic experiment made by an insane wizard, Be a Insectile Half-Ogre, Half-Dragon. This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=149811) is a character I'm using for an arena, and I typically open up with an Emerald Razor (Makes the attack a touch attack) with a full power attack to deal 4d6+90 damage, with an attack bonus of +25.

My main maneuver's depend on the fight, but Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Emerald Razor, Bounding Assault/Pouncing Charge, and Wall of Blades/Iron Heart Surge.

So if you hit that's a guaranteed DC 15 fort save vs. Massive damage. Per hit. (At level 12 anyways, at 11 I was dealing quite a bit less than that due to a rules misreading, so I was dealing in the 70s and 80s instead of the 90s).

Also if you wield a Great Axe instead of a Great Sword, you can deal 3x damage on a crit instead of x2. I currently hold the record in the arena for 2nd highest damage with a single hit(First goes to an uber charger who critted for about 500 ish damage), and 1st for most damage in a round.

DementedFellow
2009-10-20, 09:17 AM
Why not Artificer/Truenamer?

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-20, 09:23 AM
Warblade//Archivist then :smallbiggrin:

So your answer to someone trying to avoid being overpowered... is suggest something even more powerful?

Kylarra
2009-10-20, 10:29 AM
So your answer to someone trying to avoid being overpowered... is suggest something even more powerful?
Well, archivist is a lot easier to limit the powers of than psionics are, plus it's "still" vancian casting so it's not an "unknown" power system.

It's a bit moot now, but if the DM feels psionics are overpowered, then just switch tactics. He's already got a druid and a cleric in the party anyway.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 10:34 AM
Warblade//Psion is good, but not overpowered. The problem is being perceived as overpowered. If a more powerful combination is perceived as not-overpowered, and is played in a manner so as to be not-overpowered, the problem is averted.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-10-20, 12:41 PM
My best combo was a Wizard/Cleric Necromancer.
I can't remember the built, but from feats and variant rules I gained Create Undead at 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell slots.

Kulture
2009-10-20, 12:51 PM
I've been meaning to try out ubercharger Frenzied berserker combined with cleric.
If it's evil, you can lead a whole knight wedge into the charge.
If you're good you can buff yourself up before you frenzy and butcher everything in short order.

I also plan to use a Half-farspawn souleater in conjunction with ubercharger.
Not optimised, I know, but souleater gets quite nice bonuses when it has eaten in the last 24 hours.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-10-20, 01:03 PM
I've been meaning to try out ubercharger Frenzied berserker combined with cleric.
If it's evil, you can lead a whole knight wedge into the charge.
If you're good you can buff yourself up before you frenzy and butcher everything in short order.

I also plan to use a Half-farspawn souleater in conjunction with ubercharger.
Not optimised, I know, but souleater gets quite nice bonuses when it has eaten in the last 24 hours.

If you're going to cast, isn't there a wizard PrC for barbarians? It would probably be more beneficial to be a wizard since I don't believe you can normally cast when frenzying and raging.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-20, 04:52 PM
Kylarra is exactly right. Gestalting double melee loses a lot of the power of gestalt.

Every good gestalt build should really diverge on the 2 sides. Knight doesn't give you much of anything that Pally can't already do. If you don't want to be a full caster (like Pally/Sorcerer, which works very well), maybe Pally/Warlock or Pally/Dragonfire Adept for some caster utility without having to keep up with a spell list. Pally/Rogue or Pally/Factotum would let you skillmonkey. Pally/Swordsage or warblade are also better than pally/Knight.

Well... sorta. Yes, they need to be very different, but in general, there's a list of fairly specific things to consider:

1) Action Economy: While you may have twice the class features, you've still got just your normal compliment of actions - which means you can't be a Full Attacking Barbarian while you're Flesh to Stone spewing Wizard. Pick one side that has a lot of stuff you plan on spending your actions on during combat (active), and one side that has a lot of boosts/bonuses that don't require an action, or that require a very minor action (passive). Swift-action spells, long-duration buffs, sneak attack progression, save boosts, AC boosts, and such will generally be under the "passive" category, while combat magic, attack boosts, weapon proficiencies, and such will generally be under the "active" category. There's a few things that can be in either - BAB, for instance; it's Active if you're using it for Full Attacks, it's Passive if you're using it to boost your standard-action class features that require an attack roll. Pick classes accordingly. The Druid//Ninja, for instance, gets long-duration buffs (Druid, effectively passive), Wis to AC (Ninja, requires no action), Sudden Strike (Ninja, no action), invisibility (ninja, Swift action), and lots of attacks from Wild Shape (Active, requires a full-round action, generally), and all good saves (combo of both). The Druid//Ninja does very well on this score. The Wizard//Cleric, on the other hand, while it looks good at first, has stuff it needs to be doing on it's standard action every round (spells), and doesn't do so hot.
2) Attribute Distribution: While you may have twice the class features, you'll generally end up with the same wealth and the same attribute spread as a single-classed character. This means you'll want to look for classes that have similar stat requirements, or where one side's class features deal with the stat requirements for the other. For instance, the Ninja//Druid works quite well - the Ninja gets a lot of Wisdom-based stuff, and the Druid gets a lot of Wisdom-based stuff - the Ninja//Druid can get by very well on just Wisdom and Constitution. Compare to the Wizard//Cleric, who needs Dex (AC), Wis (Clerical casting), Int (Wizard casting), and Con (HP). The Wizard//Cleric isn't going to do so hot.
3) Complementary vs. Overlap: Look for things where the strengths of one side will cover the weaknesses of the other - The Druid has a poor Reflex save, but a good Will and Fort save. The Ninja has a good reflex save, but poor Will and Fort saves. The Druid//Ninja gets all good saves, making it much harder to target with magic (no one save is a good target for an opposing caster). Compare to the Wizard//Cleric: There's a bad reflex save there, right out of the box. They both have a good will save, they both have full casting.
4) Be aware of class feature limitations, and how they interact: The Druid's armor pretty much goes away in wildshape. The Ninja's AC bonuses (and much of it's class features) go away in armor. The Druid//Ninja can be in animal form all day and not need to worry about armor at all. Compare to the Wizard//Cleric: The Wizard's casting suffers from Arcane Spell Failure, and thus can't wear armor without going through quite a few hoops. The Cleric gets heavy armor proficiency. The combination has the limits of both classes.
5) Be aware of power curves. At low levels, high HD, high BAB, melee-style classes tend to dominate the game (good start on the power curve, but a bad end). At high levels, Full Casters tend to dominate the game (bad start on the power curve, but a good end). Skill-based classes (such as the Rogue or Ninja) tend to have a fairly even power curve. The Cleric//Wizard will be a poor choice at low levels, but a good choice at high levels. The Ninja//Druid is a skillmonkey (average power) at low levels, and is a Full Caster (decent power) at high levels. Unless you don't expect to hit mid to high-levels, always have a Full Caster (note: this category includes Psions, Artificers, and similar variant-casters) on one side of your gestalt. Unless you're starting at mid to high levels, make sure you've got a skillmonkey or melee-capable class on one side.


Depending on how your DM works level adjustments, things with LA or monster classes can also work well on one side of the equation. Draconic Pally is straight up better than Pally/Knight, for example, and Half Dragon Pally 3 is way better than pally3/Knight 3.
Do note that this pretty much also requires you're starting at levels above 1st (unless the DM's cool with Savage Cheese Species style progressions), which may or may not be the case.

avr
2009-10-20, 06:02 PM
A Binder//Barbarian could be a fun tank with some spells. Vestiges can give you useful feats or utility stuff like invisibility - you won't need to bind Amon to spit fire or whatever.

Androgeus
2009-10-20, 06:41 PM
Warblade//Factotum has some synergy in the int department.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-20, 06:50 PM
I was thinking about something like this:

Drow Warlock/Hellfire Warlock // Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage
With the Devil bloodline from UA and Vow of Poverty (optional).

Thoughts?

avr
2009-10-20, 07:46 PM
Anima Mage is practically the definition of a dual-caster progression PrC, which generally isn't available to gestalt characters, and a drow caster doesn't look likely to be tough as nails which the OP asked for.

ravenkith
2009-10-20, 08:03 PM
Some ideas:

1. Sneaky Warrior of Gawd
Cleric (Trickery, Magic) 20//Rogue 15/Dread Commando 5

The one that can really do it all, this is a well-balanced build.

Features:
+ d8 HD throughout
+ 3/4 BAB
+ Full cleric spell progression
+ Rogue UMD use for arcane spells
+ 8 skill points per level
+ Most skills are class skills
+ Sneak dice
+ Heavier armors worn while retaining rogue abilities
+ Full cleric turning

2. The Untouchable
Whisper Gnome Monk (Int to AC, Variant: Sleeping Tiger) 6/Rogue 14//Wizard 3/Master Specialist (abjurer) 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7, using anti big folk feats for ac boost, Ascetic rogue for unarmed damage.

Concentrates on acquiring as much defensive power as possible, in the form of self buffs and ac bonuses.

Features:
+ 3/4 bab
+ Full arcane casting
+ Extremely defensive class and racial features
+ Extremely mobile

Note: this build would theoretically specialize in using touch-delivered incapacitation spells (tasha's hideaous laughter/ghoul touch/otto's irresistible dance) in combination with sneak attack punch flurries, for a different flavor of wizard than normal.

3. Mind & Body as One
Monk(Int to AC) 20//Psion 20

Another well balanced build, but with a more offensive outlook. Uses psion powers to buff and heal primarily, with the occasional attack power thrown in.

Features:
+ d8 HD throughout
+ 3/4 bab
+ Full Psion casting

4. One charismatic sonof a B****!
Paladin (Of Freedom) 2/Rogue 3/Warlock 15//Sorceror 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Mage of The Arcane Order 4/Fate Spinner 4

This one is just for fun.Uses magic to get close to an enemy and overwhelm it's defenses with one massive attack with any weapon that is close at hand. Works extremely well with the feat that allows you to sacrifice spells for bonus to hit and damage (arcane strike). Depends on charging your weapon with your warlock eldritch blast.

Features:
+ 7d10 + 13d6 HD
+ 3/4 BAB
+ Cha to saves
+ Full sorc casting
+ 2d6 SA
+ Warlock damage dice (invest in a weapon)

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-20, 08:09 PM
Anima Mage is practically the definition of a dual-caster progression PrC, which generally isn't available to gestalt characters, and a drow caster doesn't look likely to be tough as nails which the OP asked for.

D'oh! :smallfrown:

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 08:09 PM
Simple but effective: Psion 20//Factotum 20.

Completely Int-based, gets lots and lots and LOTS of extra actions, and has one active and one passive class (factotum doesn't require an action for most of its goodies). There's also no overlap on any of its abilities (HD, BAB, bonus feats, etc). The only problem I've found is with feats; factotums want tons of Fonts of Inspiration, and psions are feat-starved, generally.

Slightly more complicated: Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4//Factotum 6/Psion 1/Factotum 2/chameleon 10/Warblade 1.

Gets full manifesting, excellent BAB, Tons of extra actions, decent spellcasting and a floating feat, is excessively versatile, and gets a little mid-level maneuver goodness near the end.

Milskidasith
2009-10-20, 08:18 PM
1. Sneaky Warrior of Gawd
Cleric (Trickery, Magic) 20//Rogue 15/Dread Commando 5

The one that can really do it all, this is a well-balanced build.

Features:
+ d8 HD throughout
+ 3/4 BAB
+ Full cleric spell progression
+ Rogue UMD use for arcane spells
+ 8 skill points per level
+ Most skills are class skills
+ Sneak dice
+ Heavier armors worn while retaining rogue abilities
+ Full cleric turning

No synergy with stats; rogue's want dex for ranged attacks, full armor removes the need for dex. UMD isn't useful when you are already slinging around spells, and if you are going for UMD why get the trickery domain when rogue covers it? It doesn't give HD or BAB increases, and neither the cleric or the rogue give anything huge to each other passively (you can use long term buffs as a cleric... but you were going with UMD anyway, so who cares about having casting if you want buffs, and who cares about SA if you are a primary divine caster?)

This one isn't that great, honestly.


2. The Untouchable
Whisper Gnome Monk (Int to AC, Variant: Sleeping Tiger) 6/Rogue 14//Wizard 3/Master Specialist (abjurer) 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7, using anti big folk feats for ac boost, Ascetic rogue for unarmed damage.

Concentrates on acquiring as much defensive power as possible, in the form of self buffs and ac bonuses.

Features:
+ 3/4 bab
+ Full arcane casting
+ Extremely defensive class and racial features
+ Extremely mobile

Note: this build would theoretically specialize in using touch-delivered incapacitation spells (tasha's hideaous laughter/ghoul touch/otto's irresistible dance) in combination with sneak attack punch flurries, for a different flavor of wizard than normal.

Once again, SA isn't great for a primary caster, and adding damage dice to wizard spells isn't great. While you have high AC, your HP itself isn't great, and your synergy is, again, bleh, although not so much as normal. Also, why go monk 6? There's nothing good there; I'd go monk 2 for Int to AC and then go for Factotum for more defensive abilities (And, in fact, sneak attack, since you love it so much.)

This one once again kind of meshes, but you can't flurry with wizard spells, and wizards probably aren't trying to SA with spells, and you aren't particularly good at fort saves. It lets you go up close and probably not get hit, true, but why would a wizard want that?


3. Mind & Body as One
Monk(Int to AC) 20//Psion 20

Another well balanced build, but with a more offensive outlook. Uses psion powers to buff and heal primarily, with the occasional attack power thrown in.

Features:
+ d8 HD throughout
+ 3/4 bab
+ Full Psion casting


Once again, why so many levels of monk? Two levels of monk and then going factotum gets you the same HD and BAB you seem to think is useful for casters (Why, I have no clue, at all) and also gets you even better int synergy. Plus, Psions are the ur blasters; it doesn't make sense to try punching things when you can, in fact, blast things much better.


4. One charismatic sonof a B****!
Paladin (Of Freedom) 2/Rogue 3/Warlock 15//Sorceror 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Mage of The Arcane Order 4/Fate Spinner 4

This one is just for fun.Uses magic to get close to an enemy and overwhelm it's defenses with one massive attack with any weapon that is close at hand. Works extremely well with the feat that allows you to sacrifice spells for bonus to hit and damage (arcane strike). Depends on charging your weapon with your warlock eldritch blast.

Features:
+ 7d10 + 13d6 HD
+ 3/4 BAB
+ Cha to saves
+ Full sorc casting
+ 2d6 SA
+ Warlock damage dice (invest in a weapon)

This doesn't have 3/4 BAB; you get full from the Paladin, in fact. And once again, I ask... why so many different abilities? 2d6 SA is nothing for a level 20 build, warlock isn't useful when you are casting, etc. The paladin dip is good for the saves, but the rest of the left side is... why bother?

Xenogears
2009-10-20, 09:16 PM
Cleric 20//Fighter 3/Paladin 2/Shiba Protecter 1/Whatever 12

Cleric side for personal buffs, take the Serenity feat to change the paladin powers to wisdom based (mostly for the wis-to-saves), Shiba Protecter gives you wisdom to attack and damage, then pop on a monks belt for wis to AC.

If you have access to it then according to the X to Y thread there is a PrC that gives you wis to HP that'd fit in nicely with this. If your DM rules that the monks belt doesn't give wis to ac then just go swordsage for the last 12 levels. In fact do that anyway probably.

In the end you get full clerical casting, wisdom to AC, Saves, Attack, and Damage (all of those are in addition to the normal bonus' not replacements), and other various benefits.

ravenkith
2009-10-20, 09:22 PM
Ok.

The OP asked for something that:
1. Was not overpowered
2. Could mix it up in melee (was tough)
3. Fit with his party
4. Wasn't reliant on arcane spells, having just finished a standard spell-hurler type

Granted # 4, however his party BADLY needs a serious arcane resource of some sort, as well as some sort of skill monkey/trapfinder since the other players are running a shaman//druid and a cleric//bard.

Rogues should almost NEVER do ranged attacks.

Remember, he wants to play as a tanky type, not as a caster type. He wants something 'tough'. The great saves of the cleric and rogue combined, plus the d8 HD, as well as the heavier armors capable of being worn all combine to make this a tough nut to crack (especially if he casts spell resistance on himself at higher levels).

That said, since he doesn't want to rely on spells for dealing damage, he needs an alternate source: that's where SD come in. Using summons to get flanks, or invisibility/greater invisibility at higher levels, means he will always be getting bonus damage without having to sack feats to do it.

While he is a primary divine caster, that only means that he can use wands and scrolls of spells that are on his list.

With UMD, he can now use wands and scrolls of spells on ANY list, both divine AND arcane.

(there are some spells that do not appear on both, y'know).

UMD is great for what it is...but there are times when you just cannot, for the life of you, get a scroll or a wand of that one spell you really want. For a stealthy warrior type, spells such as disguise self, invisibility, polymorph any object, time stop, spell resistance and antimagic field tend to be fairly useful, and should probably be things you have guaranteed access to.

As for the everything else, remember that the OPs stated primary goal is to build something that is extremely tough, can act as a demi tank while filling out his party's needs, and not demand that he spend all his time casting.

Hence the convoluted builds.

Shinizak
2009-10-20, 09:45 PM
Sorcerer/Barbarian. It's a good buff and attack class, or a good boom and attack class.

Milskidasith
2009-10-20, 09:57 PM
Rogues should almost NEVER do ranged attacks.

Really? I mean, you can get good damage output with melee, but "never" is a pretty strong word, all things considered. HiPS is easy to get in Gestalt and lets ranged attacks be pretty awesome.


Remember, he wants to play as a tanky type, not as a caster type. He wants something 'tough'. The great saves of the cleric and rogue combined, plus the d8 HD, as well as the heavier armors capable of being worn all combine to make this a tough nut to crack (especially if he casts spell resistance on himself at higher levels).


Ok, the thing is, a "tanky" type should probably have something more going for it than "OK HD, no AC bonuses, and armor proficiency." Hell, why use heavy armor when you are a rogue; it hurts a lot of your skills.


That said, since he doesn't want to rely on spells for dealing damage, he needs an alternate source: that's where SD come in. Using summons to get flanks, or invisibility/greater invisibility at higher levels, means he will always be getting bonus damage without having to sack feats to do it.


Which goes against your whole "no arrows" thing. Still, with UMD, he doesn't need to be a cleric to get summons. Plus, without rapid summoning, he's spending a round to summon cannon fodder and then attacking; not a good choice, really.


While he is a primary divine caster, that only means that he can use wands and scrolls of spells that are on his list.

With UMD, he can now use wands and scrolls of spells on ANY list, both divine AND arcane.

(there are some spells that do not appear on both, y'know).

However, what you ignored was that a rogue can already cast the useful divine spells from UMD, making cleric dead levels. If you aren't using it for casting... why not just go with barbarian? Rage and D12 HD, what's not to love?


UMD is great for what it is...but there are times when you just cannot, for the life of you, get a scroll or a wand of that one spell you really want. For a stealthy warrior type, spells such as disguise self, invisibility, polymorph any object, time stop, spell resistance and antimagic field tend to be fairly useful, and should probably be things you have guaranteed access to.

You know that if you are UMDing every god wizard spell that makes wizards into better melee fighters than actual melee fighters, you should probably just realize it's not worth getting any melee class abilities. I mean, for god's sakes, Time stop? Melee characters can't even use time stop, except for positioning.


As for the everything else, remember that the OPs stated primary goal is to build something that is extremely tough, can act as a demi tank while filling out his party's needs, and not demand that he spend all his time casting.

Then why was every one of your builds "Give him 20 levels of spellcasting gestalted with fairly weak, non meshing, not so great at tanking classes?"

I mean, if he doesn't want spellcasting, don't give him spellcasting. Give him tankey abilities. Warblade//Factotum = decent int synergy, nice saves, good damage output, good tankiness, and the occasional SLA. That took me all of... err... no time to think of, and is better at the OPs proposed role and less complicated than all the builds you listed.


Hence the convoluted builds.

You still ignored the lack of synergy and the fact that giving every build full casting with some minimal tanking abilities (or none, with the rogue) when he doesn't want to be a groups caster-monkey but does want to tank is kind of the opposite idea.

All of your arguments fail to even address the main points I made; the roles you wanted for the character just didn't work. An Int to AC monk combined with a psion doesn't make you a tank, it lets you get a decent, but not amazing, AC bonus and you're only useful feature is manifesting, so you are still a primary caster. You take six levels of monk when two levels of monk and a few of factotum are better in almost every possible way. Etc. Those things are purely mechanical issues, because by subbing in factotum for monk (which you seem to love) you get more tanking ability, more all around utility, and you still don't change the role much because Factotum is purely passive.

ravenkith
2009-10-20, 11:32 PM
...stuff...

You've said a number of things that make me question whether or not you know what you are talking about.

First, for instance, dread commando mitigates (completely, IIRC) the problems rogue faces with heavy armor.

Second, what is this obsession you have with archery whenever I'm talking about sneak dice...? Are you under the impression that sneak dice only work with ranged attacks? Or have you forgotten that:
1. Sneak attack doesn't work beyond 60 ft
and
2. Ranged attacks in melee provoke aoos and thus are a Bad Idea.

Third, the 'stats synergy' issue isn't: With this build, you need Wisdom (16+), Intelligence(14+), Dexterity(12), Constitution(12+), Strength(10+) and Charisma(8+).

Fourth, Given the spells Greater magic weapon, Magic vestment, shield of faith, Spell resistance (etc.), in addition to mithril full plate and a mithril buckler or shield, AC and to hit shouldn't be a problem. Add in one of the spells that add into saves, and you'll have all of the defensive bases covered. Your relatively low hit points is easily addressed by a vigor spell, or a contigencied heal.

Bust out summon spell for the flank and you are guaranteed to be dealing decent melee damage, thanks to your sneak dice, as opposed to having to rely on your feats (which you will be short of, especially if you are going to DMM: Persist tricks, which is the obvious call).

Remember, please, that he didn't want something that was overpowered, and I was using the choices of his other group members as a measuring stick for what would be considered 'normal power level'.

Druid//Shaman and Cleric//Bard are clearly not optimal choices.

Finally, I don't have access to TOB or Cityscape. In addition, I strongly believe that casting > meleeing, and it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Draz74
2009-10-20, 11:55 PM
I vote Fighter//Swordsage. It's simple and ridiculously deadly.

Teron
2009-10-21, 05:31 AM
Warblade//Factotum has some synergy in the int department.
It's also one of the better (mostly) non-magical/psionic options, if that's your preference; the best gestalt characters tend to end up being casters with better HP, BAB, and other passive features, but this combination keeps the focus on beating things up with a stick and lets you be a badass normal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) outside of combat as well.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 05:50 AM
You've said a number of things that make me question whether or not you know what you are talking about.

As have you; for instance, Monk 20 isn't just a bad choice, it's a nearly worthless choice. Tacking on MAD to a wizard while getting Int to AC is... well, it's not worth it more than a dip just to get the Int to AC. You have a strange obssession with monks.


First, for instance, dread commando mitigates (completely, IIRC) the problems rogue faces with heavy armor.


That doesn't change the fact that if you have dex it's not worth buying armor that has a low max dex bonus, and you still lower your speed with heavy aror.


Second, what is this obsession you have with archery whenever I'm talking about sneak dice...? Are you under the impression that sneak dice only work with ranged attacks? Or have you forgotten that:
1. Sneak attack doesn't work beyond 60 ft
and
2. Ranged attacks in melee provoke aoos and thus are a Bad Idea.

I'm not under the impression that you need ranged attacks. It's just that you are acting like they are worthless, which they aren't. Hell, you have just about the worst way of guaranteeing flankers; dropping spells that take one round to cast in order to get flankers is just asking to get hit by every enemy possible. Hell, if you want the best way for easy SA dice, you cast Swift Invisibility (Can't remember if that's cleric, though, but you can UMD it.)

Additionally, the Dread Commando you listed gets Sudden Strike, which doesn't even work with flanking; they have to be denied their dex bonus. Using Hide, Move Silently, and Swift/Greater Invisibility are better ways to do that than flanking, which doesn't do a thing for Dread Commando.

There are plenty of ranged attack builds, so I don't see why you act like the only way for SA dice is using melee.


Third, the 'stats synergy' issue isn't: With this build, you need Wisdom (16+), Intelligence(14+), Dexterity(12), Constitution(12+), Strength(10+) and Charisma(8+).

That's... MAD, actually. You sacrifice dex and con because you need int and wis higher up (though why you need so much Int with a rogue is unknown), you have 10 strength even though you suggest going into melee, and you dump the ability to cast DMM spells as effectively by dumping charisma.


Fourth, Given the spells Greater magic weapon, Magic vestment, shield of faith, Spell resistance (etc.), in addition to mithril full plate and a mithril buckler or shield, AC and to hit shouldn't be a problem. Add in one of the spells that add into saves, and you'll have all of the defensive bases covered. Your relatively low hit points is easily addressed by a vigor spell, or a contigencied heal.


You know when you start defending your builds flaws with contingencies, that isn't really a good sign since those are generally absurdly broken. As for all the other spells: They don't stack with an existing armor bonus, and at level 20 if you were going for defense why would you risk being dispelled? They aren't really optimal spell choices. Shield of Faith could be OK if you don't have a deflection item, though, and SR might be OK if you didn't want to buff yourself.


Bust out summon spell for the flank and you are guaranteed to be dealing decent melee damage, thanks to your sneak dice, as opposed to having to rely on your feats (which you will be short of, especially if you are going to DMM: Persist tricks, which is the obvious call).

Using a spell with a one round casting time in melee to guarantee flankers is not a good idea, ever.


Remember, please, that he didn't want something that was overpowered, and I was using the choices of his other group members as a measuring stick for what would be considered 'normal power level'.

That doesn't change the fact your builds had little synergy and a weird obsession with monks getting Int to AC.


Druid//Shaman and Cleric//Bard are clearly not optimal choices.

Didn't mention it.


Finally, I don't have access to TOB or Cityscape. In addition, I strongly believe that casting > meleeing, and it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

And yet you complained I didn't know what I was talking about. Although I never mentioned any content from Cityscape, I'll just say this: Factotum gets casting, Int to everything, and is about an infinitely better choice than monk for... anything.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-21, 06:32 AM
Cleric 20 // Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Ardent 16

Practiced manifester will make you effectively cast as an Ardent 20.
Tashalatora will give you a lot of the bonuses monks would get anyway, up to monk 18.

Paladin will give you Cha to saves, which has synergy with Cleric and turning. Alternately, this can be dropped, in favor of a PrC (take it earlier, rather than later, to maximize your power choices as an ardent). Heirophant would be a good choice, as it doesn't advance cleric caster level, but provides useful abilities.

D8 Hit Dice
Medium Attack Progression
Fullcast on two sides. Use one for buffing, and the other for blasting...

Or use ardent to abuse action economy and get a crapload of spells off early and often. Either or.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-21, 09:07 AM
I was thinking about something like this:

Drow Warlock/Hellfire Warlock // Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage
With the Devil bloodline from UA and Vow of Poverty (optional).

Thoughts?

So if I take out the Anima Mage and go full Binder on that side, while keeping Warlock/Hellfire Warlock ; that seems a healthy build that can just about do anything. Although; anima mage is not written like the other dual caster progression classes... but I do see yer point. The "problem" is invocation choices. I already have Hellrime Blast, Eldritch Glaive, "the flight one", and The Dead Walk listed; but the last few are eluding me. I was looking for one of the other Eldritch Shape invocations, like Eldritch Spear, and possibly Eldritch Cone. I do plan on making my own magic items, so I will be dropping Vow of Poverty. One of the vestiges allows me to create magic items while they are bound.

DudestMonk
2009-10-21, 03:24 PM
I already started and am playing the warblade/psion...I dunno if I screwed up my stats or not (I literally had to make this character before I read full descriptions of the classes)...

Warblade is sick (that stance that adds 1d6 to my attacks in exchange for -2ac is insano), I just need to level and start getting a hang of the psion.

I went for the psions Con discipline (the cha one looked awesome but it didn't synergize with the warblade) and so I did:

18 con
18 str
14 dex
10 int
10 wiz
8 cha

(dwarf so that's why the numbers don't add up)

Any suggestions for feats or prestiges would be awesome...my time for researching is slim.

Rixx
2009-10-21, 03:27 PM
Fighter / Sorcerer! Pew-pew-slash-pew-pew~

metalbear
2009-10-21, 03:47 PM
I always thought a knight//crusader combo would be a good start for a tank character. While the saves are not the best, it would do a great job at soaking up damage for everyone else while dishing out some too.

Zincorium
2009-10-21, 04:24 PM
I always thought a knight//crusader combo would be a good start for a tank character. While the saves are not the best, it would do a great job at soaking up damage for everyone else while dishing out some too.

Knight doesn't add a lot- crusader is pretty wicked for a tank, but you want to add in lots of passive defenses. Incarnate or totemist can give you some very effective and very cheap buffs without distracting you from your crusadering. And with full BAB, the incarnate's bonuses to attack go from leveling the playing field to putting a big old mound into it.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 04:41 PM
I already started and am playing the warblade/psion...I dunno if I screwed up my stats or not (I literally had to make this character before I read full descriptions of the classes)...

Warblade is sick (that stance that adds 1d6 to my attacks in exchange for -2ac is insano), I just need to level and start getting a hang of the psion.

I went for the psions Con discipline (the cha one looked awesome but it didn't synergize with the warblade) and so I did:

18 con
18 str
14 dex
10 int
10 wiz
8 cha

(dwarf so that's why the numbers don't add up)

Any suggestions for feats or prestiges would be awesome...my time for researching is slim.

Wait, what? Psions are only int, unless you are playing 3.0, and warblades are a 3.5 ed class. That's just weird. Plus, warblades have a good bit of Int based stuff anyway.

Fluffles
2009-10-21, 04:51 PM
Druid || Unarmed Swordsage (If allowed, if not take 2 levels of monk, get a monk's belt and pick up Superior unarmed strike, then go all out swordsage)

KUNG-FU BEAR WITH FULL CASTING! RAWR!

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-21, 05:11 PM
I already started and am playing the warblade/psion...I dunno if I screwed up my stats or not (I literally had to make this character before I read full descriptions of the classes)...

Warblade is sick (that stance that adds 1d6 to my attacks in exchange for -2ac is insano), I just need to level and start getting a hang of the psion.

I went for the psions Con discipline (the cha one looked awesome but it didn't synergize with the warblade) and so I did:

18 con
18 str
14 dex
10 int
10 wiz
8 cha

(dwarf so that's why the numbers don't add up)

Any suggestions for feats or prestiges would be awesome...my time for researching is slim.

Um...You're using psionics v3.0. Kill it! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Beg to remake your character using the 3.5 rules instead (http://www.d20srd.org/). Swap your 14 into Con, and your 18 into Int. You'll be glad you did.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 05:12 PM
Yep. 3.5 Psions went from having Psions be the most MAD possible to being a nice, streamlined ur sorcerer. It's like a sorcerer, but more flexible and without annoying caps on the effectiveness of low level powers.

ravenkith
2009-10-21, 06:24 PM
Yet more stuff...


Okkkkkaaayyyyy then.

{Scrubbed}
1. I never once denigrated any of your gestalt combination suggestions, and in fact, my only response to them was to state that I didn't have the sources that I thought they came from, and was therefore unfamiliar with them.

I thought Factotum was presented in the Cityscape book - apparently this is incorrect. <shrug>. Dungeonscape then? It's one of the 'scape books, IIRC.

2. Heavy armor is less of an issue if you get it made out of mithril...which I recommended in the first place.

3. I said rogues should almost never concentrate on ranged only...and considering the composition of the rest of the party, you are looking at a bare minimum of three sources of possible flanking, with summons as an emergency backup, i.e. to 'guarantee it'.

4. RE: the monk situation: perhaps you should check out the variant I suggested, which, if you take the class to level six, adds an additional dice of sneak AND grants improved initiative as a bonus feat...

5. Thanks to the cleric having the trickery domain, he will have access to invisibility...which he can use to get sneak if he so chooses at low levels (as well as sudden strike).

The issues that you keep raising really....aren't issues.

One thing you have to remember is that you only get the benefit of a class for the level you take said class.

So , for instance, when you said that I had full BAB thanks to taking a couple of levels of paladin, that was wrong.

The main reasons I am fond of monk as part of a basis for gestalt is because it has good saves across the board, yields a bonus to ac, foot speed, several useful passive class abilties (including an essentially unblockable dimension door, immunity to diseases and poisons, and improved evasion), with the right variants, several useful feats, and a d8 HD, which, while not the best HD in the game, averages only two or three points less than the best.

The class is perfect for combining with arcane and psionic casters because of the powerful RTAs and useful AC bumping abilities available to those classes, and the fact that you are essentially doubling their hit die and removing the weak fortitude and reflex save issue that you face with almost all caster types.

Finally, the ultimate weakness of a wizard or a psion or a cleric is easily beaten by adding the monk class: the caster is no longer utterly useless when he runs out of spells, into something with decent spell resistance, gets into a grapple, gets silenced, has his spell component pouch stolen, enters an antimagic field, or wakes up naked in a gladiatorial arena, etc. etc. etc...

If the worst happens, as a monk, you can still beat someone to death with your bare hands if need be.

And yes, I've had DMs use any and all of the aforementioned methods from keeping me from solving their plots with the correct application of one simple spell.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-21, 07:48 PM
How about a lion totem (C.Champion?) whirling frenzied barbarian//dragonfire adept?

Load him up as an ubercharger, and given him a bunch of metabreath feats (including Quicken Breath and Entangling Exhalation), to knock out a swift-action BFC during the first round, then alternate BFC invocations to debuff and slaughtery death.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 09:49 PM
{scrubbed}

ravenkith
2009-10-21, 10:39 PM
{Scrubbed}

Leewei
2009-10-21, 10:59 PM
I'd suggest Beguiler / Swashbuckler and grab the Faerie Mysteries Initiate at some point. You get tons of skill points, good sneaky magic. Alternately to Swashbuckler, work the DMG Duelist PrC into the build. The character gets Int bonus to AC, Int bonus to HPs (replaces Con), tons of nice defensive buffs such as greater mirror image and greater invisibility, is fully effective in light armor (such as a mithril breastplate), and brings very solid crowd control into the group. Weird as it sounds, taking Monk (Kung Fu Genius) leading into Duelist might be worth considering. This adds Int to AC (again) as well as to Stunning Fist DC. You also get Evasion and strong saves. It would admittedly screw up light armor benefits.

Beguilers have rather nice access to Swift Action (even some Immediate Action) magic. Examples include greater mirror image, hesitate, halt, and swift etherealness. The build is very nice in terms of economy of action. Take Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell feats when possible to make it even better.

DudestMonk
2009-10-22, 02:23 PM
Okay so I'm not sure what has changed about Psion in 3.5? Are you saying that my primary disciplines governing skill no longer determines my extra points?

Also that was point buy and I'm 1/3rd of the DMing team and nobody cares that much so I can remake my stats (especially since we only played 1 encounter so far)

What stats should I be taking? 38 point buy...dwarf.

Something like

18 con
16 str
14 dex
14 int
10 wiz
8 cha

Milskidasith
2009-10-22, 05:04 PM
There is an online SRD that can tell you everything you need to know about 3.5 core, which includes psionics.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm

Psions don't use multiple stats. They only use intelligence. Putting your intelligence at 14 for a psion is like putting your int at 14 for a wizard, or your wis at 14 for a druid.

Psions are completely, entirely different in 3.5e, and since you are using a 3.5e class (Warblade) there is no reason to be using the much less useful, MAD, 3.0 psion.

soylentplaid
2009-10-22, 05:40 PM
Chiming in.

Someone suggested Warblade//Psion. If you want to minmax, my suggestions:

Fighter/Psion, up to level 5. Make sure you've got the prerequisites for Metamind. From there, you'll notice something: Metamind may only get +1 manifester level every other level, but it also gets +1 attack every other level. Combine this with two other classes that get those every single level, and you can get into a chain of Fighter/Metamind, Psion/Metamind, Fighter/Metamind, etc. At 17th level, you've got full attack, full manifester, and all the metamind powers.

I tried this once, and my DM shut me down on the prestige class nonsense, but still. My Fighter/Psion, evil, in plate armor and holding a legendary weapon scythe, was a murder machine. Something about opening up a full attack after (level)d10 mind thrusts and enemy-destabilizing Psychotic Breaks, while under the effects of psionic shields and damage enchancers while a Large-sized Astral Construct tore up the background. Warblade/Psion should give you similar, if not more options-filled results.

ravenkith
2009-10-22, 05:47 PM
@ Miks: In all seriousness, I truly believe that the cleric rogue combo I suggested would be effective without necessarily being broken.

With that in mind, I have to ask: who do you think would win in a straight up fight that took place on a featureless plane of stone between the warblade//factotum and the cleric//rogue?

Who do you think would be able to survive more equivalent-level challenges?

Who do you think would add more to the party as it stands?

The last one is pure debate, but the other two are possible to test, if you're interested...

Level 1, 10 and 20 builds would be needed in order to test thoroughly, of course.

Interested?

Fluffles
2009-10-22, 06:19 PM
Shape shifting Ranger/master of many forms // Swordsage

It will give you decent power and lots of fun (kung-fu bear!). But Druid would be better with Nat spell. Though that it generally considered OP'd. But you can cut down on the buffs and hit your party tank with a bite of the Werebear to shut him up about your strength.

Milskidasith
2009-10-23, 12:02 PM
Miks: In all seriousness, I truly believe that the cleric rogue combo I suggested would be effective without necessarily being broken.

True, it would be effective. However, there is a lot of overlap and room for improvement; rogue grants no HD or BAB improvements on a cleric, and it has very few passive abilities (evasion) and some stepping on toes, considering evasion ruins the clerics armor proficiency (rogue//cloistered cleric eliminates those issues, but then you rely on dex in a melee build like you wre giong for.)


With that in mind, I have to ask: who do you think would win in a straight up fight that took place on a featureless plane of stone between the warblade//factotum and the cleric//rogue?

Obviously the cleric, because a cleric alone could beat any non tier 1. The problem with that is that it's not comparing anything; when comparing which class you should gestalt with a set class, you would compare, say, warblade//rogue and warblade//factotum or cleric//rogue and cleric//factotum. (And cleric isn't too hot with Factotum, though it can be useful if you have the points for INT.)


Interested?

Since I never suggested Warblade//Factotum (well, I may think it's a good idea, but I just posted edits to your build, which included neither), no. However, I would be interested in going with the psion//factotum against the psion//monk, but let's take that to the Test of Spite thread, shall we?

industrious
2009-10-23, 01:03 PM
Warblade/rogue, perhaps with a dip in swashbuckler or duelist

Sneak Attack + Martial Stance(island of blades) = add half your rogue level to melee attacks, and manuevers.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-23, 04:41 PM
A bardificer? Maybe taking bard into sublime chord?

It's the ultimate support character (and could probably out-everything everyone else anyway, if he so chooses).

Riffington
2009-10-23, 08:43 PM
Obviously the cleric, because a cleric alone could beat any non tier 1.
I don't see how that's obvious at all. The rogue gives cleric very little synergy (more just options), whereas factotum gives warblade a fair amount of synergy*. The featureless plain further nerfs the rogue while greatly assisting the factotum//warblade in a "win initiative, kill with damage on the first round" strategy.

Milskidasith
2009-10-23, 08:45 PM
I don't see how that's obvious at all. The rogue gives cleric very little synergy (more just options), whereas factotum gives warblade a fair amount of synergy*. The featureless plain further nerfs the rogue while greatly assisting the factotum//warblade in a "win initiative, kill with damage on the first round" strategy.

A cleric at level 1 would lose, sure. A cleric at level 10 would have more than enough methods of being buffed; DMM persist, for instance. At level 20, it's no contest, because at that point it's cheap and easy to craft your own contingent spells. Even without contingencies, the cleric could easily afford to get a +10 CL on Holy Word/Blasphemy and just instakill with no save.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-23, 10:14 PM
I always thought it would be cool to play an artificer // psionic artificer, from Magic of Eberron, the one that gives you all the psionic item creation feats. If the craft reserves stack, you would be quite the item factory.

oxinabox
2009-10-23, 10:31 PM
Totemist//Barbaian?
I just want to try out totemist in gesthalt...
(swap barb. for som, ToB)

Riffington
2009-10-24, 10:24 AM
A cleric at level 1 would lose, sure. A cleric at level 10 would have more than enough methods of being buffed; DMM persist, for instance. At level 20, it's no contest, because at that point it's cheap and easy to craft your own contingent spells. Even without contingencies, the cleric could easily afford to get a +10 CL on Holy Word/Blasphemy and just instakill with no save.

I don't understand. To get the time to craft a contingency or use persist, you need to run and find a hiding spot first. Which a flat featureless plain of stone doesn't really offer. If you assume that the cleric gets to start off with the contingency or the persisted-buffs (ie they have time to prepare for the arena), then you have to assume that the warblade//factotum also had time to find someone to sell him contingencies and persisted-buffs. The cleric just has a slightly higher wealth to spend on items since his buffs/contingencies were cheaper in GP (but more expensive in feats).

And the factotum should win initiative. It's kind of their thing. Well, that and being cheese in gestalt.

Milskidasith
2009-10-24, 10:25 AM
Err... Ok, if you want to assume that the cleric can't have contingencied spells, we can just assume that the warblade doesn't have any equipment. With no equipment, the scale still tips in favor of the cleric, since, well, spells don't need any.

Exterminatus
2009-10-24, 10:49 AM
How well would a Ranger20//Sorcerer 20 go according to 32pt. buy and WBL?

Riffington
2009-10-24, 12:07 PM
Err... Ok, if you want to assume that the cleric can't have contingencied spells, we can just assume that the warblade doesn't have any equipment. With no equipment, the scale still tips in favor of the cleric, since, well, spells don't need any.

They can obviously both have contingencied spells. The total value of their equipment (including spells up) should clearly be equal (except that the cleric can have the "I have a feat" discount).

As a separate issue, the warblade wins without equipment or spells up. Sure, since he's unarmed, all his damage is subdual... it still is a KO before the cleric gets first action.

Milskidasith
2009-10-24, 12:10 PM
Depending on the range, of course. And the availabity of immediate action spells that eliminate your ability to attack. And, of course, if you can actually knock the cleric out in one hit.

Riffington
2009-10-24, 12:21 PM
Depending on the range, of course.
Sure, fair point. There certainly exist ranges at which summoning wins (depending on the contingencies selected. Indeed, if we're allowing contingencies it really kind of boils down to who picks the better set of contingencies, not what class you are).


And the availabity of immediate action spells that eliminate your ability to attack.
I was under the impression that you can't use immediate actions while flatfooted?


And, of course, if you can actually knock the cleric out in one hit.
At low levels that's tough but clerics are easy prey anyway. At high levels, with the factotum giving an extra action and the warblade doing lots of damage, it's not as hard. There may be a midlevel sweet spot where the cleric does well though.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 12:22 PM
How well would a Ranger20//Sorcerer 20 go according to 32pt. buy and WBL?
By the base stats it's "okay", D8 HD, good saves all around, good BAB. Ranger isn't terribly great to begin with though, and you're introducing another stat that needs to be pulled up. You'd generally do better gestalting a ranger with a cleric or other wis-caster.

Gnaeus
2009-10-24, 01:45 PM
I think ranger//sorc is just fine. Wisdom doesn't need to be very high with a ranger. You only want it high enough to use wands and relevant spells on your list, ranger save DCs won't matter. Perhaps a 12 wisdom, with a +2 item by level 11, or 11 with +2 by level 8, +4 by level 14 are very doable. At 32 Point buy, you could take Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16 and be fine.

It is a particularly good combo if you are a wildshape variant ranger, looking at a build like Ranger5/MoMF10/Natures Warrior 5//Sorcerer 20. Then your build could be Str 8, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18. Drop your level 4 attribute + into wis and you are great.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 01:56 PM
I think ranger//sorc is just fine. Wisdom doesn't need to be very high with a ranger. You only want it high enough to use wands and relevant spells on your list, ranger save DCs won't matter. Perhaps a 12 wisdom, with a +2 item by level 11, or 11 with +2 by level 8, +4 by level 14 are very doable. At 32 Point buy, you could take Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16 and be fine.

It is a particularly good combo if you are a wildshape variant ranger, looking at a build like Ranger5/MoMF10/Natures Warrior 5//Sorcerer 20. Then your build could be Str 8, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18. Drop your level 4 attribute + into wis and you are great.
It's not particularly bad as a combo, just not particularly optimal either.

sonofzeal
2009-10-24, 02:18 PM
I think ranger//sorc is just fine. Wisdom doesn't need to be very high with a ranger. You only want it high enough to use wands and relevant spells on your list, ranger save DCs won't matter. Perhaps a 12 wisdom, with a +2 item by level 11, or 11 with +2 by level 8, +4 by level 14 are very doable. At 32 Point buy, you could take Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16 and be fine.

It is a particularly good combo if you are a wildshape variant ranger, looking at a build like Ranger5/MoMF10/Natures Warrior 5//Sorcerer 20. Then your build could be Str 8, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18. Drop your level 4 attribute + into wis and you are great.
Kylarra's right, it's not bad so much as, well, an odd choice with no special synergy. The Ranger side doesn't help the Sorc side work besides decent BAB/HD, the Sorc side doesn't help the Ranger work unless you've got some real plan for spell choices, the major advantage of Ranger (Wildshape) is already covered by Sorc (Polymorph), and the result has stats all over the board. Even if you can make it work, you're putting extra effort for only moderate gain.

Gnaeus
2009-10-24, 02:26 PM
Kylarra, not every gestalt needs to be (2 of the 3) wizard//warblade//factotum.

Ranger//Sorcerer has a good chassis (saves, hp, BAB). It has a powerful acting class (sorcerer). It can heal itself. It has good skill points with a good selection of skills. It is likely to have utility in the vast majority of combat and non-combat situations. It is a solid gestalt combo.

Milskidasith
2009-10-24, 02:29 PM
Kylarra, not every gestalt needs to be (2 of the 3) wizard//warblade//factotum.

Ranger//Sorcerer has a good chassis (saves, hp, BAB). It has a powerful acting class (sorcerer). It can heal itself. It has good skill points with a good selection of skills. It is likely to have utility in the vast majority of combat and non-combat situations. It is a solid gestalt combo.

That's kind of like saying Druid//Commoner is a good gestalt combo... it's got a powerful chassiss (two good saves, d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, full casting). It has a powerful acting class (Druid). It can heal itself. It has decent skill points with a good selection of skills. It is likely to have utility in the vast majority of combat and non-combat situations. It is a solid gestalt combo.

In both cases, one class adds almost nothing to the gestalt while the other carries the weight. Granted, ranger gives full BAB and slightly better HD and skills to a sorcerer, but... that's about it. You could pick just about anything to get that.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 02:32 PM
Kylarra, not every gestalt needs to be (2 of the 3) wizard//warblade//factotum.

Ranger//Sorcerer has a good chassis (saves, hp, BAB). It has a powerful acting class (sorcerer). It can heal itself. It has good skill points with a good selection of skills. It is likely to have utility in the vast majority of combat and non-combat situations. It is a solid gestalt combo.Ironically none of the above were suggestions I made in this particular case?

All I suggested was to choose a caster with a stat synergy so that you're reducing the amount of MAD in your build. Yes, you can do it, by no means is it a poor combination like Fighter//Barb or the like. Switching Sorcerer for say Cleric (cloistered probably) will remove your need for charisma, give you 9th level casting still and by taking magic domain can still do most of the other caster tricks.

Gnaeus
2009-10-24, 02:36 PM
Kylarra's right, it's not bad so much as, well, an odd choice with no special synergy. The Ranger side doesn't help the Sorc side work besides decent BAB/HD, the Sorc side doesn't help the Ranger work unless you've got some real plan for spell choices, the major advantage of Ranger (Wildshape) is already covered by Sorc (Polymorph), and the result has stats all over the board. Even if you can make it work, you're putting extra effort for only moderate gain.


That is absolutely not true.

A good gestalt combo should either cover the holes of a primary side, or augment the primary side in a particular way. In this case, ranger covers holes. It fixes a sorcerers HP, BAB, weak saves, and poor skill points. It does most of this in a passive way that doesn't require any particular investment.

Polymorph doesn't remotely cover Wildshape, unless you are planning a high tier combo that gives you persisted polymorph at a reasonable level. A sorcerer cannot get Polymorph until level 8 (and at level 8 only if that is his only lev 4 spell). Polymorph cannot give extraordinary qualities. It lasts for minutes, so it probably has to be cast in combat. Shapechange makes wildshape obsolete, but 9th level spells make everything obsolete.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-10-24, 02:52 PM
Rogue/Warlock with Hideous Blow, either invisibility or reliable access to flanking (The Dead walk for wolf skeletons?), a big two-handed weapon, and a level or two of fighter somewhere.
Big damage.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-24, 04:26 PM
Rogue/Warlock with Hideous Blow, either invisibility or reliable access to flanking (The Dead walk for wolf skeletons?), a big two-handed weapon, and a level or two of fighter somewhere.
Big damage.

Not so much on the hideous blow, it blows hideously. Sub it out for eldritch glaive. HB only allows you one attack per round (standard action to activate) vs. EG granting full attack. HB requires a regular melee attack vs EG requiring a melee touch attack. HB is dependent upon a weapon vs. EG transforming an eldritch blast into a melee weapon form with reach.


I'm a big fan of [anything]//Binder/[Appropriate PrC] Binders have HD/BAB/Saves or a cleric. They mesh very well with any class. (Barbarian is especially good, since vestige abilities are (su) and can be used while raging.

Vestiges usually grant a good number of passive abilities that can really round out a gestalt character, and their action oriented abilities can add diversity to a build.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-10-24, 09:22 PM
Not so much on the hideous blow, it blows hideously. Sub it out for eldritch glaive. HB only allows you one attack per round (standard action to activate) vs. EG granting full attack. HB requires a regular melee attack vs EG requiring a melee touch attack. HB is dependent upon a weapon vs. EG transforming an eldritch blast into a melee weapon form with reach.
Problem with Eldritch Glaive is that I don't have the Dragon magazine or whatever that it's in.


I'm a big fan of [anything]//Binder/[Appropriate PrC] Binders have HD/BAB/Saves or a cleric. They mesh very well with any class. (Barbarian is especially good, since vestige abilities are (su) and can be used while raging.

Vestiges usually grant a good number of passive abilities that can really round out a gestalt character, and their action oriented abilities can add diversity to a build.
The above problem applies to this, as well. for me. :smallfrown: