my (male) friend (for over 7 years) is now a woman?

[littlebottom]

short disclaimer: i do not intent to insult or offend anyone, im just not used to this sort of stuff:smalleek:

i found out today, that a friend of whom i had not seen much of lately for an unknown reason has decided that he wants to be a she... he/she has been taking female hormones for a while now (i dont know how long yet, i shall find out soon i hope) but it has had definate effects on him/her, he/she is pre-op currently, and will be having the operation in about a year or so.

personally, im fine with it overall... but i cant help feeling mixed emotions over the whole thing, im sure its natural to be feeling a bit odd about it but still...

im in a mild state of shock, not having seen him/her for about a year for more than a casual glance at a distance, and he/she has been taking hormones for long enough to have started to develop breasts... im... kinda at a loss for words to describe the feeling that a friend for so long is now... well, not completely who they were before, although its the same person, the mentality is different, although the personality the same, im just so confused right now.

now, this being the playground, im sure we have people who understand this issue, hell i know several have done this themselves. but its different when its someone youve known so long for them to suddenly change... im not objecting against it, i just feel i need to share this with people who might understand... maybe im looking for comfort, i dont know, its him/her that proberbly needs the comfort right now...

(actually, come to think of it, i also feel slightly betrayed, that he/she hasnt mentioned this before, back when it was less obvious, its not like he/she could tell me instantly, but ive seen him/her about, it wouldnt of been hard to just yell at me and say they wanted to talk?)

EDIT: sorry about all the "him/her" and "he/she" stuff, but i didnt know what else to put. infact, i dont even know if they refer to themselves as a women yet or not.

[FoE]

When I read the title, I thought this thread was about how your friend was a seven-year-old boy who wanted to become a girl. Thankfully, you have been spared a barrage of stern questions. :smalltongue:

[littlebottom]

ah, sorry, ill change the title.:smallredface:

[SMEE]

Hello there. I'm one of those here who have done such thing to themselves. :smallsmile:

First, that shock you're going through now is very common. It is the kind of news no one really expects, so it's very normal for you to be confused.

My suggestion is for you to not talk much with her for the next few days until you're more at ease with the idea. If she asks, just tell her you need some time to refresh your ideas about it all.
If you can, try to keep being a good friend and address her properly whenever suitable (when she's on the so called "girl mode" or you two are alone).

If you have any more doubts, or need to vent more about this all, we're here to hear.
I'll personally thank you for dealing with this this way instead of shunning her. :smallsmile:

[Pika...]

Although I do not believe you can ever truly change your gender, I personally would try to be as supportive in any way I could because your friend will be going through a lot of changes, issues, and sadly social stigma for changing his appearance to that of the gender he/she feels he/she wants to be.

Good luck with your friendship either way.

[Pika...]

First, that shock you're going through now is very common. It is the kind of news no one really expects, so it's very normal for you to be confused.

I believe the OP is a bit surprised about the friend never trusting him with this information/side of him/her before. From your experience, could it be the OP is not considered as close a friend by this person as the OP thought?

I imagine those "in the know" would not suffer the shock as much. Or am I wrong about this?

[Icewalker]

I have a friend who has recently come to the same decision, albeit in the other direction. He now goes by male pronouns and is binding breasts and looking into the operations. I didn't find it terribly surprising, nor did it phase me particularly (although it took a bit of time to get used to the new pronouns), but I think this is because my circle of friends are the most crazy people.

I would expect that at this point your friend has opted to go by female pronouns a while ago, its worth checking, but that's what I'd assume.

[Jacklu]

I feel you pain, Little. Just recently I became reacquainted with a friend that I spent much time with growing up, but who I had not seen for a few years due to life in general. Meeting them again as a girl was a little awkward at first.

I would second Smee's advice. Give yourself a little time to let this sink in. At the same time, try not to be too hurt by them not trusting you earlier on. It can be very nerve wracking to come out with this stuff to your friends and family. Random strangers have no vested image in you as a person, but those who are close to you will often hold onto their image of you very desperately when presented with this kind of information.

They can act like you are betraying them by coming out. Like you are killing their friend or sibling or child and trying to substitute a new person in their stead. It is one of the reason I have yet to come out to my closest friends. I am terrified that by coming out, they will not want to be my friend anymore.

If you want more advice, I might suggest stopping by the LGBT thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102566) Plenty of helpful people "in the know."

[littlebottom]

thanks to all for the advice!

i think im largely shocked about the fact that they didnt tell me sooner, not out of betrayal, but because im the kinda "go-to" guy. loads of people i know will tell me things that they would never tell anyone else, because they know they can trust me, because i actually listen and understand, and you know, sometimes you just need to tell someone who wont go running about spreading it through friends and family. so i think thats part of my problem with it. im not used to people not trusting me with these things...

im not saying its wrong that they didnt tell me though, im just saying im not used to it.

i think im gonna let it cool off over the next few days but if its unavoidable, then its unavoidable, i dont want them to think they have alienated me or something.

[Zeb The Troll]

All good advice from some that are in a better position to know than I am, but one piece of advice that I see missing (that I've learned from the lovely women here undergoing the process as well as from Alarra's research on this very subject) is that, if your friend is presenting as a woman, is already on the hormones, and is working towards the surgery, it's time to abandon the idea of this friend as 'him'. Don't dual-pronoun things. You should be using she/her all the time, even when she's not around to hear you say it. Not doing so could be interpreted as you failing to acknowledge or accept the decision she's made (and you can be certain that this is not a decision made lightly). If nothing else, doing so is a show of support from you. Being decisive on a pronoun will also help your brain settle in to the idea more quickly than if you keep flip flopping in your own head.

[Thajocoth]

My brother (18) is actually about to start that process soon. He's very very feminine, so anyone who knows him well knows on some level, so I wasn't actually surprised.

[Pika...]

All good advice from some that are in a better position to know than I am, but one piece of advice that I see missing (that I've learned from the lovely women here undergoing the process as well as from Alarra's research on this very subject) is that, if your friend is presenting as a woman, is already on the hormones, and is working towards the surgery, it's time to abandon the idea of this friend as 'him'. Don't dual-pronoun things. You should be using she/her all the time, even when she's not around to hear you say it. Not doing so could be interpreted as you failing to acknowledge or accept the decision she's made (and you can be certain that this is not a decision made lightly). If nothing else, doing so is a show of support from you. Being decisive on a pronoun will also help your brain settle in to the idea more quickly than if you keep flip flopping in your own head.

Hmm. Reminds me of how I feel about my name change.

Even now it bothers me that some family still refuses to call me by who I now am, and it always felt good when another first called me by my chosen name. I guess I felt they "accepted" it/me/whatever. Sure, NOWHERE near as big a life change, but I just felt I would comment my thoughts on it. :smallsmile:

[Katana_Geldar]

New names become familiar by usage, keep at it and it will not seem so forced.

[Totally Guy]

Pronouns are the hardest thing in this situation. I've been getting used to a friend transitioning to male. In my attempts to be careful I've made certain mistakes. In our prolonged Saturday game session we all get a bit tired sometmes and I find that I slip into programmed behaviour.

First it was "always substitute female name that must not be mentioned for male replacement name". I ended up "correcting" my cousin when she was talking about her little girl.

Occasionally I enter the mindset of "nobody is female" which on a couple of occasions had led to me referring to women I know as male which is annoying as it partially exposes the mental shortcut I've taken.

Some times I've deferred to "nobody has gender pronouns". Language becomes more complicated then.

I also remember a time where our little group were all obeying the rules but the older generation (parents of other friends) could still get away with using the old identity with out being corrected. Then I felt like I wasn't being considered an adult as opposed to any other more reasonable interpretation of this.

[bosssmiley]

I found out today, that a friend of whom I had not seen much of lately for an unknown reason has decided that he wants to be a she... he/she has been taking female hormones for a while now (I don't know how long yet, I shall find out soon I hope) but it has had definite effects on him/her, he/she is pre-op currently, and will be having the operation in about a year or so.

I hope he will be very happy as a she. Such a major life change is not a decision to be made lightly. Heck, most of us have trouble enough changing our style of dress; let alone our bodies. :smallwink:


personally, I'm fine with it overall... but I cant help feeling mixed emotions over the whole thing, I'm sure its natural to be feeling a bit odd about it but still...

I'm in a mild state of shock, not having seen him/her for about a year for more than a casual glance at a distance, and he/she has been taking hormones for long enough to have started to develop breasts... I'm... kinda at a loss for words to describe the feeling that a friend for so long is now... well, not completely who they were before, although its the same person, the mentality is different, although the personality the same, I'm just so confused right now.

It's entirely understandable that you're a little "wuh?" about the situation at the moment. Change is always disconcerting, especially change in a place or person you've known well for a long time. Mental adjustments to the new state of affairs can take a little time and effort.

Despite appearances your friend is still the person you knew 'back in the day'. They still remember the funny/daft things you did together, they probably still have the same sense of humour and taste in music/films/books/food they always did; they're just wearing a different 24 hour-a-day 'suit' now.

I'm with Han Moravec on this: so long as there's continuity of personality, they're still the same person (whatever their physical changes).

As for the whole pronouns drama thing, just ask your friend how he/she would prefer to be referred to. I mean, they're the person with the most invested in the situation, right?

If she now identifies as a woman, dresses as a woman, uses the girls' room, and has high levels of female hormones coursing about her system, it seems a bit impolite to keep on referring to 'her' as 'him' for old times' sake. If the courtesy of changing mode of address is good enough for married couples, or for simple(!) transvestites ("He's Martin during the week, but she's Sarah at the weekend."), then it's definitely good enough for someone who's really put their money where their mind is in terms of sexual self-image.

edit: Moravec, not Morevac. He beat me with a Dyson until I learnt my lesson :smallfrown: *coughs blood*

[Syka]

I know it's tough, but realize- not even her mentality has changed. If she is going through the process, and identifies as female, it's a good bet she's always felt this way on some level. The only thing really changing about her is the physical bits and the proportions of hormones. Mentally, she's probably the same.

I'm going to have to second the others about not referring to her as a him/her or he/she. She's a she now, assuming she's identifying and living as woman. If she's got the op planned, it's also good bet she's already living as a woman.


What you need to understand about coming out, even moreso about being transgender, is people view the change as making you a new person, as you seem to be under the impression. The way society treat male and female as two distinct types of people enforces that. She is not a 'new person'. She may have an altered body, but she's still the friend you had way back then. She was probably just really worried about how you'd take it, which is most likely why you didn't know. It was a few years before I found out one of my best friends was gay, 5 years before I found out another one of my friends cross dresses. Yet another friend got married and didn't tell ANYONE until she got pregnant. All of those stem from worrying about how people will react to the news. Not so much a lack of trust as just being worried that the person will then alienate them.

[Ikialev]

{Scrubbed}

[Faulty]

As Syka said, your friend there was no change in mentality. Gender identity is seperate from sex, so your friend identified as a "she" before even starting hormones, etc. Transgender people are just changing their sexes to that generally associated with their gender identity, not changing their gender or personality or mentality or anything like that.


Although I do not believe you can ever truly change your gender

Gender is different than sex.

[Quincunx]

I'm going to cut off the discussion of how the change-ee feels about this with an abrupt "It's not that relevant", because right now, it's not. We're here for the people who haven't changed, who have no intention of themselves changing, and have no idea how much to change towards someone who does change.

(deep, cleansing breath. let the exasperation out. . .let the synonyms in. . .)

Probably the best thing to do is change over pronouns entirely and immediately. This leaves you free to use the formerly correct pronoun to discuss the past and the currently correct pronoun to discuss the present. If this person has been a bit of a recluse over the past year, then that was the time in the chrysalis when the awkward pronouns would have been used, and it ended before contact was made once more. You're spared the additional pangs of having someone newly entered to your gender trying to assimilate you.

[Telonius]

thanks to all for the advice!

i think im largely shocked about the fact that they didnt tell me sooner, not out of betrayal, but because im the kinda "go-to" guy. loads of people i know will tell me things that they would never tell anyone else, because they know they can trust me, because i actually listen and understand, and you know, sometimes you just need to tell someone who wont go running about spreading it through friends and family. so i think thats part of my problem with it. im not used to people not trusting me with these things...

im not saying its wrong that they didnt tell me though, im just saying im not used to it.

i think im gonna let it cool off over the next few days but if its unavoidable, then its unavoidable, i dont want them to think they have alienated me or something.

As the "go-to" guy for a lot of my friends, I can kind of sympathize. My best piece of advice is to remember that her decision not to confide in you beforehand is almost certainly not about you. It's about her; about her being honest and comfortable with herself. Yeah, it's a pretty big decision (and that's an understatement), but it's one that's intensely personal. She might not have felt comfortable talking with anybody but her doctors and family about it beforehand. It might have totally slipped her mind to talk to you (or anybody else) about it. It might be any number of things. But it most likely has nothing to do with the state of your friendship with her.

I'd suggest that your reaction to the situation will probably have a lot more of an impact - so make sure your head's on straight before you talk to her next. Good luck!

EDIT: About the pronouns - the best way of finding out is asking. If your friend is really emphatic that "she" is the word from now on, you'll have to monitor your own thoughts a lot more closely. If a few "he's" are okay now and then while you get used to it, that's great too.

[Pika...]

Gender is different than sex.

While you could word it the other way around to the ssame affect, I get the meaning of what you mean. :smallsmile:

I just meant that science is a bit behind a "true" change, but at least we are at the point where with things like hormones and surgeries people like those mentioned in this thread can at least outwardly represent their emotional inner. I have had a number of bi and gay friends, and I am glad they ahve that option.

[Faulty]

While you could word it the other way around to the ssame affect, I get the meaning of what you mean. :smallsmile:

I just meant that science is a bit behind a "true" change, but at least we are at the point where with things like hormones and surgeries people like those mentioned in this thread can at least outwardly represent their emotional inner. I have had a number of bi and gay friends, and I am glad they ahve that option.

Gender is an identity and sex is arguably biological.

[Pika...]

Gender is an identity and sex is arguably biological.

Eh, it's the English language. I bet if I looked up Dictionary.com I'd find the same definitions for both, and then about 2-7 more each. :p


edit: But again, I get the meaning.

[Coidzor]

Then a cosmetic change is neither biological or psychological. Merely a balm that is tangential at best to how, good sirs, we are to react to such news come as a surprise. The hormonal change probably best fits, but still, is as tangent to the sine of our course.

So, she just vanished over a course of time and simply appeared less and would not initiate contact, well, that hurts, but you're not allowed to be hurt by that because she had a reason in the fear and anxiety and actual changes being brought on.

That her guise be matching that of her, well, then look you upon her and know the pronouns to use. If she resume disguise for whatever reason, then look you to that for counsel, but so long as she remain in her guise, then she shall remain so seated in your mind, as Quincunx suggested and I too lend my support.

For shock, I can recommend a lie down, with legs elevated and a blanket, but such is not the aid you need right now. 'Tis but time that can help you there, as far as my wit can rend.

[Anuan]

I have had a number of bi and gay friends, and I am glad they ahve that option.

...Did you just imply that a gay male would get a sex-change? And thus imply that transwomen are just gay men with surgery?

:smalleek: *flees*

[Pika...]

...Did you just imply that a gay male would get a sex-change? And thus imply that transwomen are just gay men with surgery?

:smalleek: *flees*


No. :smallconfused:

Key word: "Option".

I have one gay friend I can very well see having a sex change, due to his personality and such.

Then again, I had one who was so "manly" no one but another huge builder would likely mess with him. In my opinion he was clearly a man in his mind. The current one (though I have not seen him in 2.5 months...) I can see identifying as a female.


edit:
Well, to be fair, again I believe until science leaps forward again to some extent yes. A transgender male or female is still what they were, just altered.

However, if you are implying that I believe the only reason they do it is because they are homosexual and that is their only reason/reasoning? Then no.

[Anuan]

No. :smallconfused:

Key word: "Option".

I have one gay friend I can very well see having a sex change, due to his personality and such.

Then again, I had one who was so "manly" no one but another huge builder would likely mess with him. In my opinion he was clearly a man in his mind. The current one (though I have not seen him in 2.5 months...) I can see identifying as a female.


edit:
Well, to be fair, again I believe until science leaps forward again to some extent yes. A transgender male or female is still what they were, just altered.

However, if you are implying that I believe the only reason they do it is because they are homosexual and that is their only reason/reasoning? Then no.

Oh, good. Though if your gay friend had a sex-change, I'm pretty sure it would imply he was not a gay male but a straight transwoman.

[Pika...]

Oh, good. Though if your gay friend had a sex-change, I'm pretty sure it would imply he was not a gay male but a straight transwoman.

Eh, I go by biology to make processing this whle socially complicated issue easier. Until we get to the point where we can change the plumbing and get it to work perfectly (breed true) it is all up in the air to debate. Hence why I just leave it be.

It just gets me confused and causes arguments when people throw in trans-woman/man into the racial mix. Then again,ignoring it also does....basically you can't win either way, so I hope science pushes forward soon. :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

It's a mucky thing. Best not to think about the semantics of the mechanics of it anyway.

[Fawkes]

Oh, good. Though if your gay friend had a sex-change, I'm pretty sure it would imply he was not a gay male but a straight transwoman.

Oh, leave him alone. There's a billion words for this sort of thing, and the lines are ridiculously blurry. It doesn't matter to anyone except that person what words we use to describe him. If Pika knows the person as a gay male, then that's good enough for this discussion, regardless of what others may consider him.

[Pika...]

It's a mucky thing. Best not to think about the semantics of the mechanics of it anyway.

Agreed.

I am a large believe in "To each his own!".

You aren't actually hurting or affecting anyone else, then I feel you should get every right I do. :smallsmile:



However, I will honestly admit that I dislike the idea of someone not telling me what they were/are before you-know-what, but there is no way to deal with that aside from making prejudice infringing laws, so it's the only thing that kinda plays on my mind a bit. I guess it's the whole not having a choice/being told part.

Then again, I am currently pathetically desperate, so this is just my over-thinking paranoia kicking in.

[Pika...]

Oh, leave him alone. There's a billion words for this sort of thing, and the lines are ridiculously blurry. It doesn't matter to anyone except that person what words we use to describe him. If Pika knows the person as a gay male, then that's good enough for this discussion, regardless of what others may consider him.

Thanks.

At least I learned that if a friend of mine ever does the process I should ask them privately what they would like to be addressed as.

It's such a little thing I know I would stupidly overlook without noticing the importance to said person. So this thread shows me something at least.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

pronouns are the hardest part, in my opinion, especially if the changee looks like the old gender.

I have a Fem to male friend that I constantly muck up the pronouns around. Its not that I don't respect his choice, its that when I look at him, I see a female. I know he hates it, even thoug he doesn't mention it. I'm sure the ":smalleek::smallfrown:" expression on my face says I'm sorry more than any words can. I guess what I'm rambling is, "good luck with the pronouns, they are the hardest part for me."

[Pika...]

pronouns are the hardest part, in my opinion, especially if the changee looks like the old gender.

I have a Fem to male friend that I constantly muck up the pronouns around. Its not that I don't respect his choice, its that when I look at him, I see a female. I know he hates it, even thoug he doesn't mention it. I'm sure the ":smalleek::smallfrown:" expression on my face says I'm sorry more than any words can. I guess what I'm rambling is, "good luck with the pronouns, they are the hardest part for me."

Just give it time.

I remember this mentioned in psychology. Basically, when something is set in stone in your head it is hard to change it/replace it.

My aunts for instant accepted my new name years ago. However, when they see me they still process me mentally as "Little xxxxxxx". Even three years later they slip often, though they have gotten much better. Some family members do not "slip" anymore period.

[Faulty]

Oh, leave him alone. There's a billion words for this sort of thing, and the lines are ridiculously blurry. It doesn't matter to anyone except that person what words we use to describe him. If Pika knows the person as a gay male, then that's good enough for this discussion, regardless of what others may consider him.

Well, he did say "good for my gay and bi friends" or something not "good for my trans friends"...

[Pika...]

Well, he did say "good for my gay and bi friends" or something not "good for my trans friends"...

My apologies. The terminology and technicalities and such are just confusing me at this point.

[Fawkes]

Well, he did say "good for my gay and bi friends" or something not "good for my trans friends"...

So? You don't know these people. You have no way of judging what words are appropriate for them.

[Last_resort_33]

I also remember a time where our little group were all obeying the rules but the older generation (parents of other friends) could still get away with using the old identity with out being corrected. Then I felt like I wasn't being considered an adult as opposed to any other more reasonable interpretation of this.

Not the case, difference was, you listened and cared. They basically said it was a crock o ****e and they weren't going to play his "games"...



However, if you are implying that I believe the only reason they do it is because they are homosexual and that is their only reason/reasoning? Then no.
or ANYTHING to do with it AT ALL. Gay trans men and Lesbian trans women are just as (proportionally) common as cissexual* gay and lesbian people.

My husband is a transsexual man. I will tell you something for sure. The person is still the same person they always were.

The woman you are talking about has not "become" a she, she has realised her gender and has chosen to present it in a way she feels comfortable.

*trans = across, cis = on the same side, Latin I believe...

[Anuan]

My apologies. The terminology and technicalities and such are just confusing me at this point.

This is entirely understandable. It's really confusing when they're genderqueer or similar and identify as both male and female either together or as seperate genders but at the same time.

Knowing how to address/refer to the friend suddenly becomes very hard.

[AmberVael]

pronouns are the hardest part

Yes.

You're going to make a mistake at some point, and use the wrong pronoun. It isn't because you don't respect them or anything, just that it can be so confoundedly difficult to break habit both in terms of them and processing it in general.

In my experience, I made mistakes and it was my pronoun. So when you make a mistake, maybe make a really quick apology, or correct yourself, or maybe just make a point of using the correct one later. Just make it obvious that you know which is the right one, and don't make a huge fuss over it (because that just makes it more awkward).

[Moff Chumley]

Alright, Pika... here's a brief crash course.
There are two things to consider: who the individual is attracted to, and what gender they identify as. Let's go down the list:
Homosexuals are attracted to the same gender, but identify as their biological gender.
Bisexuals are attracted to men and women.
Pansexuals are potentially attracted to anyone (For instance, a man dating a transgender would be Pansexual).
Transgender is what we've been discoursing on: a (strait) woman in a man's body, or vice versa.
There are several other distinctions, but those are the main ones. A blanket term for other members of the LGBT community is typically "queer": for instance, a transgendered woman who's only attracted to particularly masculine females.

Other people will probably have several to add.

[Fawkes]

It's really confusing when they're genderqueer or similar and identify as both male and female either together or as seperate genders but at the same time.

Although if they're still particular about terminology at that point, I'd say they're just being difficult.

Also, is 'queer' an acceptable term now? I thought it was more of an insult.

[Ostien]

Although if they're still particular about terminology at that point, I'd say they're just being difficult.

Also, is 'queer' an acceptable term now? I thought it was more of an insult.

Queer has actually become an overriding neutral term. I mean there are terms like Queer Theory bandied about in academic circles. It was a whole long process where queer was re-branded and claimed by, well, the queers (not the band) :smalltongue:

[Fawkes]

Huh. Guess they took it back. Go figure.

I still think I'll avoid using it, though. Just to be safe.

[Dracomorph]

Alright, Pika... here's a brief crash course.
There are two things to consider: who the individual is attracted to, and what gender they identify as. Let's go down the list:
Homosexuals are attracted to the opposite gender, but identify as their biological gender.
Bisexuals are attracted to men and women.
Pansexuals are potentially attracted to anyone (For instance, a man dating a transgender would be Pansexual).
Transgender is what we've been discoursing on: a (strait) woman in a man's body, or vice versa.
There are several other distinctions, but those are the main ones. A blanket term for other members of the LGBT community is typically "queer": for instance, a transgendered woman who's only attracted to particularly masculine females.

Other people will probably have several to add.

Right, except that homosexuals are attracted to others of their own gender. Important point, that.

[Ostien]

Huh. Guess they took it back. Go figure.

I still think I'll avoid using it, though. Just to be safe.

I mean it still can be an insult, but its mostly tone. It's a word to consider when the situation is ambiguity as far as both gender and sexuality are concerned (and especially a combination of both!).

I like it, because the meaning is essentially "weird" and I'm fine with being weird :smallsmile:

[Moff Chumley]

{Scrubbed}

[thorgrim29]

loads of people i know will tell me things that they would never tell anyone else, because they know they can trust me, because i actually listen and understand, and you know, sometimes you just need to tell someone who wont go running about spreading it through friends and family. so i think thats part of my problem with it. im not used to people not trusting me with these things...


No experience with the matter at hand, and also utterly confused by the pronouns (we probably need a third one at this point.....). But I'd just like to add, it's been said only those you trust can hurt you, and I think that's true. If she trusted you like you say, she would have probably been terrified of coming out to you, because you negative judgment, even if unlikely, would have been much harder to cope with then that of any number of more casual acquaintances. So she probably waited until the point of no return before coming clean with you. Basically, if I'm right, she trusts you a lot, just not implicitly.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Pansexuals are potentially attracted to anyone (For instance, a man dating a transgender would be Pansexual).

Couldn't he be heterosexual?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Couldn't he be heterosexual?
Its always good to be safe.
Having been placed as a Pansexual for that sort of situation, when on a dating site, it gets really confusing.
I had gotten several PM's of "Well, I see that you're Bi. Are you okay with a transmale/female?"
Of course, the answer is yes (although, for some reason, my preference runs towards transfemales o.o). Unfortunately, though, this is not always the case.
So, a person open to dating any gender option is Pansexual.

[Fawkes]

Are you okay with a transmale/female?"

Which one of those is which?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Which one of those is which?

Transmale is a woman who becomes a man, Transfemale is a man who becomes a woman.

[The Rose Dragon]

So, a person open to dating any gender option is Pansexual.

What happens when you don't believe in the importance of gender, but rather the importance of sex, when it comes to sex?

For example, if someone will have sex with "any female" (defined as anyone with XX-allosomes and born with female genitalia - so it could be a cis-female or a FtM-transsexual), what would you call him?

On a different point, what if someone will have sex with anyone with a vagina, but not anyone else, whether that vagina is "all-natural" or a product of vaginoplasty?

Defining sexuality, a mainly physiological act, through gender, a mainly psychological construct, is not the most constructive method of doing things, precisely due to arguments like the ones above.

Also, basing it on attraction only works if it's strictly not binary or trinary. It has to be on a scale, or a chart, or a three-dimensional diagram is a much better idea. For example, I am attracted to a number of men, but I would not have sex with them, so defining me as a bisexual due to this reason would not be correct.

Where's Fritz Klein when you need him?

[Stormthorn]

Is it just me or has this thread strayed into a thread about defining gender and its relations to sexual orientation?

I had a friend whos stepfather (or mabye real father. She has too amny father for me to keep it straight) suddenly decided ot become a woman. I imagine it was a really hard thing for her to deal with. In factm i dont think she did deal with it since last i checked she hadnt talked with himher in months.
I just urge you not to have a falling out like that.

[RabbitHoleLost]

For example, if someone will have sex with "any female" (defined as anyone with XX-allosomes and born with female genitalia - so it could be a cis-female or a FtM-transsexual), what would you call him?
A hypersexual heterosexual.
Or a hypersexual lesbian, depending.


On a different point, what if someone will have sex with anyone with a vagina, but not anyone else, whether that vagina is "all-natural" or a product of vaginoplasty?
Same answer as above.


Defining sexuality, a mainly physiological act, through gender, a mainly psychological construct, is not the most constructive method of doing things, precisely due to arguments like the ones above.
Also, basing it on attraction only works if it's strictly not binary or trinary. It has to be on a scale, or a chart, or a three-dimensional diagram is a much better idea. For example, I am attracted to a number of men, but I would not have sex with them, so defining me as a bisexual due to this reason would not be correct.
I consider sexuality classifications a combination of attractions and actual sexuality.

[The Rose Dragon]

Is it just me or has this thread strayed into a thread about defining gender and its relations to sexual orientation?

This is GitP. We once had a thread with an OP about TPK that turned into a freaky evil feline cult in about ten posts.

Compared to that, this is a very logical progression.

[SMEE]

Pronouns are indeed the most difficult part.
Especially when you're tired. You will slip at some point.

I know I did with mine and some friends. If it is the case, just correct yourself and do a quick apologize.

Generally, it'll be ok to always use the female pronoun to address her even if she's in guy mode, unless there's people around who doesn't know about her situation. In this case, use the male pronoun lest you out her.

Once again, thanks for not making a big fuzz over it with your friend.
Trust me, it means a lot to her.

[Jacklu]

<.< Apparently Jacklu is weird. Because pronouns never cause me any trouble. Granted, I am unable to actually distinguish gender anymore. =P Generally speaking, tell me what to call you, and it will stick.

[Ninja Chocobo]

So, a person open to dating any gender option is Pansexual.

This just cements the idea that "transsexual" is some kind of third gender. And it shouldn't be considered as such!

[Stormthorn]

I usualy adress people as "hey you" or some other defining characterstic. "Hey only close black friend of mine!" "Hey lesbian writer chick!" "Hey philosophy major guy!"

[littlebottom]

Pronouns are indeed the most difficult part.
Especially when you're tired. You will slip at some point.

I know I did with mine and some friends. If it is the case, just correct yourself and do a quick apologize.

Generally, it'll be ok to always use the female pronoun to address her even if she's in guy mode, unless there's people around who doesn't know about her situation. In this case, use the male pronoun lest you out her.

Once again, thanks for not making a big fuzz over it with your friend.
Trust me, it means a lot to her.

heh.... erm :smallredface: thanks yourself for making me feel very embaressed:smalltongue:

i might send a pm to you sometime if theres any issues i have about this later on because of a point raised with her, to make it so i dont screw up badly and annoy her for some reason i didnt understand, proberbly nothing major though if anything at all.

[SMEE]

Feel free to PM me about it.

For obvious reasons, I have tons of experience on the matter. :smalltongue:

[littlebottom]

thanks smee, and your shoulder cat rules :smallwink:

[Mystic Muse]

tell me what to call you, and it will stick.

Call me Gorthaur the cool.:smalltongue:

[littlebottom]

i met her again today... fortunately managed to avoid pronouns :smalltongue: she smiled at me though, suppose thats a good sign as last time she looked really nervous (which is to be expected) but the fact she smiled must mean shes glad about how i reacted... i think?

[SMEE]

Aye, it's a very good sign.
She's clearly very happy about how you reacted. :smallsmile: