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oxinabox
2009-10-19, 09:22 PM
So I just realised my character has +7 dex mod...
He's proficient with all armour, but no shields.
His arcane casting is limited to medium armour though.

Currently he has a +2 Keeled master work Mithral Full plate.

I can knock his encumbrance backdown to light load. (i just need to put this money on the the fighter...)

And i can proable sometime in the future afford any armour.
So what should i be looking at?

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 09:27 PM
Is he using a 2 handed weapon? If not, Masterwork Buckler (and mithral given your an arcane caster) is a free +1 ac +2 dex, there is no armor check penalty (or arcane cast failure if mithral) and thus no non proficient penalty.

What level (or class for that matter) is he to have a... 24? dex and still be a caster anyways?

Iku Rex
2009-10-19, 09:39 PM
"Keeled"?
"Masterwork mithral"?


Assuming DnD 3.5:

Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) is probably the best choice. Remember, you can add more abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities) to the "+3 chainmail".

Other than that, nightscale (+2 armor, +10 max dex) or spidersilk (+3 armor, +8 max dex) from the FR Underdark book are good.

oxinabox
2009-10-19, 09:39 PM
Ohh, a mithral breastplate +2 would be slightly better (1 point) better,
and the dm would probably let me retrain battle caster (cast in medium).

+2 Leather comes out the same.
Assuming max dex all armour is +7-+9...

Claudius Maximus
2009-10-19, 09:40 PM
Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) seems right up your alley.

Edit: It seems like somebody posted that information before I did.

oxinabox
2009-10-19, 09:43 PM
"Keeled"?
"Masterwork mithral"?
Sorry, all mithral is master work...
Keels from stormwrack: +50 gp, reduced penalty to swim checks by 2






Assuming DnD 3.5:

Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) is probably the best choice. Remember, you can add more abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities) to the "+3 chainmail".

Other than that, nightscale (+2 armor, +10 max dex) or spidersilk (+3 armor, +8 max dex) from the FR Underdark book are good.
Celesital is good, i wonder if i can find a discount one without fly. ( I fly all day)

Iku Rex
2009-10-19, 09:54 PM
Keels from stormwrack: +50 gp, reduced penalty to swim checks by 2I actually had Stormwrack open on the armor section when posting. :smallbiggrin:

(I was checking the max dex of sharkskin - +6, so not good enough.)


Celesital is good, i wonder if i can find a discount one without fly. ( I fly all day)Unlikely. Specific weapons and armor are generally package deals. Still, depending on how you're getting flight the fly from the armor could give you better speed and maneuverability for a few minutes.

Ormagoden
2009-10-19, 09:56 PM
Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) seems right up your alley.

Edit: It seems like somebody posted that information before I did.


Nice find! I like! Is that from Exalted deeds?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-19, 09:57 PM
There was something called Bondleaf Wrap from Arms and Equipment (3.0 source, but never updated). It only had a +1 Armor bonus, but no Maximum Dex Bonus. Mind you, it isn't 0, but -, indicating you can have as high a dex bonus as you like.


Nice find! I like! Is that from Exalted deeds?

From the SRD, actually. Follow the link you quoted...

Ormagoden
2009-10-19, 10:00 PM
There was something called Bondleaf Wrap from Arms and Equipment (3.0 source, but never updated). It only had a +1 Armor bonus, but no Maximum Dex Bonus. Mind you, it isn't 0, but -, indicating you can have as high a dex bonus as you like.



From the SRD, actually. Follow the link you quoted...

I guess that juicy max dex just eluded me all these years...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-19, 10:14 PM
Mithril Chain shirt allows for a +6, which is pretty solid. There's gotta be an enchantment out there for it.

Even so, padded armor is max dex 8, and really, it's there for armor enhancements.

savenger
2009-10-19, 10:19 PM
Mithril chain shirt, add the nimble bonus (MIC I think) which increases max dex, by 1 (if I remember correctly).

Cieyrin
2009-10-19, 10:26 PM
Celesital is good, i wonder if i can find a discount one without fly. ( I fly all day)

Millennial Chainmail from the MIC is basically stripped down Celestial Armor. Only restriction is you have to be CG, CN or NG to get it treated as such. It's 8,150 gp as opposed to 22,400 gp. Yay for Relics!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
Mithril Chain shirt allows for a +6, which is pretty solid. There's gotta be an enchantment out there for it.

Even so, padded armor is max dex 8, and really, it's there for armor enhancements.

Nimbleness is a +1 enchantment from the MIC to increase Max Dex to +7 on that Mithril Chainshirt.

Milskidasith
2009-10-19, 10:30 PM
Why is a +1 max dex bonus a +1 enchantment? I mean, couldn't you just, you know, get +1 to the armor?

Well, it does make it apply against touch attacks, so I guess it is somewhat more useful.

deuxhero
2009-10-19, 10:33 PM
Because Nimbleness stacks with greater magic vestment and another +1 bonus does not?

Milskidasith
2009-10-19, 10:38 PM
That works too. So it's a +1 to AC if you need it, and helps with magical buffs. Not great, but always better than a +1 if you are wearing armor not up to your max dex.

Myrmex
2009-10-19, 10:39 PM
From the SRD, actually. Follow the link you quoted...

So it wasn't published in a prior WotC book?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-19, 10:41 PM
So it wasn't published in a prior WotC book?

Originally published in the DMG for 3.5

Cieyrin
2009-10-19, 11:18 PM
That works too. So it's a +1 to AC if you need it, and helps with magical buffs. Not great, but always better than a +1 if you are wearing armor not up to your max dex.

It also reduces ACP by 2, if you care.

dragonfan6490
2009-10-19, 11:36 PM
In Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might, there is an armor enhancement called Graceful, it is a +1 enhancement that removes the maximum dex modifier for your armor. Another enhancement from that book I think is called Casting, and it removes the Arcane Spell Failure from the enchanted armor.

gdiddy
2009-10-20, 02:08 AM
Sigh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-20, 02:43 AM
Sigh. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor)

Expensive, and cannot be the target of Magic Vestments.

Kylarra
2009-10-20, 03:00 AM
Didn't someone posit the idea of adding the armor enchantments to a normal set of clothing making them legal targets for MV as well as granting an armor bonus like bracers?

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 03:24 AM
Didn't someone posit the idea of adding the armor enchantments to a normal set of clothing making them legal targets for GMV as well as granting an armor bonus like bracers?
Yeah, that would be me. But I don't know of any Greater Magic Vestment.

1) Start with the right clothing.
Scholar’s Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus if you cast Magic Vestment:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13 already) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

olentu
2009-10-20, 03:27 AM
And of course I contend that as the trick depends completely on a DM giving a favorable ruling it is perhaps a good idea to note that one would need to get a DM to agree that an outfit of magically enchanted clothing is regular.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-20, 03:30 AM
And of course I contend that as the trick depends completely on a DM giving a favorable ruling it is perhaps a good idea to note that one would need to get a DM to agree that an outfit of magically enchanted clothing is regular.

I concur. When your method involves gaining approval for custom/reslotted items, you begin to wander out of safe territory.

lesser_minion
2009-10-20, 03:43 AM
Expensive, and cannot be the target of Magic Vestments.

Actually, Magic Vestment works on any outfit of clothing - unless you plan for your character to be otherwise naked, there shouldn't be a problem (although the bonus-stacking rules could interfere)

I don't actually see a DM arguing that enchanted robes of any kind are not 'regular' clothing.

There are so many interpretations of the word 'regular' possible that I don't see how it could conceivably have been meant as a restriction.

And if any real problems came up, bracers form part of an outfit of clothing, so you could argue that the enhancement should apply to them equally.

Devilboy
2009-10-20, 06:53 AM
Nightscale, from Underdark.
Expensive, but gives you base of +2, and max dex of +8

Or if truly proficient with all, Spidersilk (also underdark)

+3 AC base, +8 max dex, -1 ACP, but masterworked removes that, but it is exotic.

Doesn't change anything from your current for now, but if you gain dex, spidersilk is better.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-20, 07:19 AM
Actually, Magic Vestment works on any outfit of clothing - unless you plan for your character to be otherwise naked, there shouldn't be a problem (although the bonus-stacking rules could interfere)

I don't actually see a DM arguing that enchanted robes of any kind are not 'regular' clothing.

There are so many interpretations of the word 'regular' possible that I don't see how it could conceivably have been meant as a restriction.

And if any real problems came up, bracers form part of an outfit of clothing, so you could argue that the enhancement should apply to them equally.

The contention lies in the reslotting of the bracers of armor to be a robe of armor. Requires DM approval, and a lot of DM's don't.

Sharkman1231
2009-10-20, 07:31 AM
Mage Armor is always pretty good, +4 AC, lasts for hours, no dex maximum. You also said you were an arcane caster. Though useually I keep my dex at +6 and get enchanted mith chain shirt.

Meh...:smallannoyed:

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 07:47 AM
The contention lies in the reslotting of the bracers of armor to be a robe of armor. Requires DM approval, and a lot of DM's don't.
There is no contention if you follow the RAW. No reslotting or DM approval is required, as this is a standard location for an armor bonus per Magic Item Compendium Table 6-11: Adding/Improving Common Item Effects.
Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items

One of the most frustrating roadblocks to using interesting, unusual magic items is that they take up body slots that you need for an ability-boosting item (such as gauntlets of ogre power), a ring of protection, or another must-have item. To address this issue, Magic Item Compendium presents official rules for adding common item effects to existing magic items.

oxinabox
2009-10-20, 08:00 AM
Mage Armor is always pretty good, +4 AC, lasts for hours, no dex maximum. You also said you were an arcane caster. Though useually I keep my dex at +6 and get enchanted mith chain shirt.

Meh...:smallannoyed:

I said i had the feat to cast arcane spells in medium armour.
I don't have any arcane spells though, let alone mage armour...

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 08:23 AM
Celesital is good, i wonder if i can find a discount one without fly. ( I fly all day)

Fly (CL 5) 1/day is worth 5400 gp (5*3*1800 * 1/5), making the adjusted price 17,000 gp. Talk to your DM and a friendly NPC crafter. But do check the maneuverability on your all day flight. Fly (good) from the fly spell is far better than fly (average). If you're hovering in mid air or turning on a dime with fly (average), then stop cheating man :smallbiggrin:. See flight rules for more info.


There is no contention if you follow the RAW. No reslotting or DM approval is required, as this is a standard location for an armor bonus per Magic Item Compendium Table 6-11: Adding/Improving Common Item Effects.
All custom items require DM approval, since these are guidelines not rules. And yes the guidelines are highly abusable and DMs should make a decision on every item.

deuxhero
2009-10-20, 09:34 AM
All items period requires dm approval, that doesn't stop the rest of the topic.

Ormagoden
2009-10-20, 09:42 AM
Nimbleness enchantment on Celestial Armor = +9 Max Dex. That's BEASTLY!

Glimbur
2009-10-20, 09:48 AM
Gnome Twistcloth from Races of Stone? Only +1 armor bonus, but Max Dex of -. Also, if you drop the Exotic Armor Proficiency on it you get the armor bonus from it to your Touch AC too.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 11:25 AM
All custom items require DM approval, since these are guidelines not rules.
You're incorrect. These are explicitly marked as official rules in Magic Item Compendium, as I quoted earlier. The new rules are there so that no DM negotiation is required; any character with the appropriate item creation feat can add a magic property on the list at the cost stated.

Cieyrin
2009-10-20, 11:41 AM
Nightscale, from Underdark.
Expensive, but gives you base of +2, and max dex of +8

Or if truly proficient with all, Spidersilk (also underdark)

+3 AC base, +8 max dex, -1 ACP, but masterworked removes that, but it is exotic.

Doesn't change anything from your current for now, but if you gain dex, spidersilk is better.

Actually a bit incorrect.

Nightscale is Armor +2, Max Dex +10 and no ACP, which means that you don't have to bother with Exotic Armor Proficiency, as there's no ACP to impede your movement or rolls.

Spidersilk is Armor +3, Max Dex +8 and -1 ACP. As you've said, masterworking reduces it to 0 but, again, you don't have to bother with EAP, since there's no ACP to slow you down in the slightest.

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 12:21 PM
You're incorrect. These are explicitly marked as official rules in Magic Item Compendium, as I quoted earlier. The new rules are there so that no DM negotiation is required; any character with the appropriate item creation feat can add a magic property on the list at the cost stated.

Oh the rules that let you add stats to different items. Whoops that's fine. I thought you were talking about making robes of armor (not modifying other robes). Though even then if MIC is allowed, then slots don't have much meaning for +X's and the DM would probably let such things fly without prior approval.

Celestial armor is still better than the above two since armor (chainmail) + dex = 13. Those options might be cheaper though.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 12:51 PM
Oh the rules that let you add stats to different items. Whoops that's fine. I thought you were talking about making robes of armor (not modifying other robes).
I am talking about making robes with armor bonuses, which can be either magical or nonmagical to start.
Table 6-11: Adding/Improving Common Item Effects presents a list of common item effects, from ability score enhancement bonuses to energy resistance, and the price to add that effect to an item. There's a specific footnote for adding armor bonuses:
Cannot be added to any item that already provides a (nonmagical) armor or shield bonus to AC. So you can have plain robes, or magical robes that don't have armor enhancement, such as Robe of Bones (Dungeon Master's Guide, 2,400 gp); it doesn't matter. What you can't add a magical armor bonus to would be a gnome twist cloth robe, because that already has a nonmagical armor bonus.

olentu
2009-10-20, 01:19 PM
I am talking about making robes with armor bonuses, which can be either magical or nonmagical to start. There's a specific footnote for adding armor bonuses: So you can have plain robes, or magical robes that don't have armor enhancement, such as Robe of Bones (Dungeon Master's Guide, 2,400 gp); it doesn't matter. What you can't add a magical armor bonus to would be a gnome twist cloth robe, because that already has a nonmagical armor bonus.

That is not really my point in any case.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 01:31 PM
I fail to see the reasoning behind the caveat for "DM approval" then. Basically, you're not any more subject to DM approval for that than you would be for any other standard item.

Sure, DMs could just opt to ban all of MiC or whatever, but there isn't any RAW reason why this would require any more DM approval than anything else.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-20, 01:35 PM
Bracers of Armor provide an enhancement bonus to Armor. So does Magic Vestment. Bonuses of same type do not stack. You cannot get a Robe of Armor (much in the same way as a Bracer of Armor re-slotted) and expect Magic Vestments to stack with it, although you could get perfectly mundane robes and cast Magic Vestments on them.

technophile
2009-10-20, 02:06 PM
Bracers of Armor provide an enhancement bonus to Armor. So does Magic Vestment.
Your reasoning is incorrect. Bracers of Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#bracersofArmor) provide an armor bonus. Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm) provides an enhancement bonus to your armor or shield.

Whether Bracers of Armor count as "a suit of armor or shield" is the question; by bonus types, they should stack.

A Robe of Armor would count regardless of the question about Bracers, since Magic Vestment specifically provides an exception for "regular" clothing.

Eloel
2009-10-20, 02:08 PM
No. Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus. Magic Vestment provides an enhancement bonus to your existing armor bonus, thus they stack.

It provides an enhancement bonus to your armor's bonus. Bracers of Armor is NOT armor (but IS an armor bonus, so it doesn't stack). You don't have 2 different armor bonuses.

Edit for an Edit:


Whether Bracers of Armor count as "a suit of armor or shield" is the question; by bonus types, they should stack.

They're not 'a suit of armor or shield', unlike chainmail bikinis, their armor bonus is fully magical.

technophile
2009-10-20, 02:09 PM
Right, I edited to correct that. :)

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 02:23 PM
They're not 'a suit of armor or shield', unlike chainmail bikinis, their armor bonus is fully magical.
The rules do not make distinctions between nonmagical and magical armor bonuses for the point of stacking them with other types of bonuses. Armor bonuses and enhancement bonuses to armor are different types, and thus the rules say they stack.

Roderick_BR
2009-10-20, 02:40 PM
Consider non-armor vestiments as having base AC 0 (zero). That's what you enchance with MV. And no, you can't stack it with bracers of armor any more than you can stack bracers and full plate.

An interesting item I found in some book(MIC or DMG2), is a suit that pretty much works as an improved Robe of the Archmagi, with AC armor of +8 instead of +5, and a few other abilities. And it's a body slot, freeing your shoulders slot for somenthig else. A sweet deal for casters if they can pay for it, since the body slot usually is not used by them.

Anyway, I second the gnome twist robe. Since it's skill penalty is 0, you get no problems from it. Getting the proficiency feat makes it's bonus count against touch (to a maximum of +6, sadly) but still nice. Else, just get some other AC booster, and use the twist robe to get others powers.

technophile
2009-10-20, 03:10 PM
The rules do not make distinctions between nonmagical and magical armor bonuses for the point of stacking them with other types of bonuses. Armor bonuses and enhancement bonuses to armor are different types, and thus the rules say they stack.

Right, but the text of Magical Vestment specifically says it applies to "a suit of armor or a shield" or a "regular set of clothing".

Bracers are none of those things (goes the argument) and thus MV doesn't apply to Bracers of Armor.

Cieyrin
2009-10-20, 03:10 PM
An interesting item I found in some book(MIC or DMG2), is a suit that pretty much works as an improved Robe of the Archmagi, with AC armor of +8 instead of +5, and a few other abilities. And it's a body slot, freeing your shoulders slot for somenthig else. A sweet deal for casters if they can pay for it, since the body slot usually is not used by them.

Y'mean Vest of the Archmagi from the MIC? It's nice but really expensive, if all you want it for is armor. Plus it fills the Torso slot, not the Body Slot, FYIBTW.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 04:44 PM
Wow that's some pretty powerful stuff. Using this logic a fighter with a tunic of armor +8, with permanent magic vestment +5 and a dexterity of at least 20, would be better protected then a fighter in +5 full plate.

I wonder if the cost for Permanent Magic Vestment (+5) is more then a +5 bonus to your armor?

Hm well lets find out!

Permanent Magic vestment (+5) is:
3spell level x 20 CL x 2000 = 120,000gp
vs.
+5 bonus to armor is 25,000gp

wow. Also:

64,000gp for +8 tunic of armor vs. 2000gp for master work full plate

Still:
184,000gp for +13 AC armor that has no ACP, arcane magic failure, and no weight seems about right, and lets you move your full speed AND full dex bonus.
Vs.
27,000gp for +13 AC armor, Max dex bonus of +1, -6 ACP, 35% Arcane spell failure, weights 50 lbs, and speed of 20ft or 10ft, AND takes a long time to don.

Yeah... wow. I wonder if one could add Soulfire to such an item?

Cieyrin
2009-10-20, 05:11 PM
Yeah... wow. I wonder if one could add Soulfire to such an item?

Just because it has an armor bonus doesn't mean that you can add armor special abilities to them. Of course, this depends on whether we're using the rules mentioned in Arms and Equipment Guide, which allows Bracers of Armor to replace armor bonuses with armor special abilities. By proxy, you could reasonably apply the same to a different item with armor bonuses like the Bracers but that's up to DM fiat at that point.

oxinabox
2009-10-20, 06:20 PM
. But do check the maneuverability on your all day flight. Fly (good) from the fly spell is far better than fly (average). If you're hovering in mid air or turning on a dime with fly (average), then stop cheating man :smallbiggrin:. See flight rules for more info.

.

Flight, good.
Forever.
Nasty (hb) WIld magic surge, giving the whole party the perminate ability to fly.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 08:47 PM
Using this logic a fighter with a tunic of armor +8, with permanent magic vestment +5 and a dexterity of at least 20, would be better protected then a fighter in +5 full plate.
You're running past the rules here. There is no such thing as Permanent Magic Vestment. The Permanency spell cannot be applied to Magic Vestment, and any attempt at duplicating that spell in item form must instead use the enhancement bonus formulas for creating magic items.

Along the same line of thought, my air castle is taller than your air castle. :smallwink:

Paulus
2009-10-20, 11:31 PM
You're running past the rules here. There is no such thing as Permanent Magic Vestment. The Permanency spell cannot be applied to Magic Vestment, and any attempt at duplicating that spell in item form must instead use the enhancement bonus formulas for creating magic items.

Along the same line of thought, my air castle is taller than your air castle. :smallwink:

Wow I actually forgot about this here for a moment... same argument, two different threads. Adding Magic vestment as a continuous spell to an item has a cost given to it, as I showed up in my previous post, determine the item price. Spell level x Caster level x 2000gp with addition based on time of the spell for per/hour, minute, rounds etc. Once you have the determined item price, simply figure out which feat you would need. Since it's a regular item (tunic) and not really armor, you'd need Craft wondrous item. Then just half the total price, and 4% of the Xp, and the days as shown above - get your DM to approve it- and viola! Shirt with the spell Magic Vestment forever and ever!

or... you know. Don't. For whatever reason. I've no real explanation, that how it works as far as I know, but i am probably wrong. As it has been proven, I lack all ability to argue with Mr. Curmudgeon, please pay me no mind.

~Tra la la la *gets on the swing set*

gdiddy
2009-10-21, 02:22 AM
Monk belt?

oxinabox
2009-10-21, 04:19 AM
Monk belt?

I have wisdom natuarlly zero.
Buit then i started taking chameleon lvls so imediately got a +4 wisdom item.
so my wis mod is +2...
that cut down celestial armour lookks good.
Once i sell of my old armour and get it built up to +3...

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 05:13 AM
The rules do not make distinctions between nonmagical and magical armor bonuses for the point of stacking them with other types of bonuses. Armor bonuses and enhancement bonuses to armor are different types, and thus the rules say they stack.

Enhancement bonuses boost armor bonuses, then you compare total armor bonuses from each source. In the end you have an armor bonus and an armor bonus and they don't stack.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-21, 05:42 AM
The rules do not make distinctions between nonmagical and magical armor bonuses for the point of stacking them with other types of bonuses. Armor bonuses and enhancement bonuses to armor are different types, and thus the rules say they stack.

Correct. But the enhancement bonus must be to armor. And the rules DO make distinctions between Armor and Wondrous Items.

Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus. They are not, however, armor. They are a wondrous item. These are seperate classes of magical gear, and are treated as such.

Robes of Armor provide an armor bonus. They are not, however, armor. They are a wondrous item. These are seperate classes of magical gear, and are treated as such.

As such, by RAW, they do not qualify for an enhancement to armor, any more than you can charm a Dire Lion with Charm Person.

For the same reason, Bracers of Armor cannot have Armor enhancements, such as silent moves.

In other words, you can't mix and match from the wondrous item section and the Magical Armor section, any more than you can add +1 and flaming to Beads of Force.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-21, 06:15 AM
Robes of Armor provide an armor bonus. They are not, however, armor. They are a wondrous item. These are seperate classes of magical gear, and are treated as such.

As such, by RAW, they do not qualify for an enhancement to armor, any more than you can charm a Dire Lion with Charm Person. Apparently I missed some part of the RAW here. Please point out to me where it states that wondrous items cannot have enhancement bonuses to armor. They can have armor bonuses, natural armor bonuses, enhancement bonuses to natural armor, deflection bonuses, sacred bonuses, profane bonuses, and even dodge bonuses, as demonstrated by specific examples of WotC-created wondrous items. I've found no part of the rules that restricts what types of bonuses wondrous items can have.

For the same reason, Bracers of Armor cannot have Armor enhancements, such as silent moves. The rules contradict this point explicitly. Bracers of Armor can indeed have armor enhancements like Silent Moves or Fortification. See Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130. As this point is disproven, and you're using "the same reason" to conclude robes cannot have enhancement bonuses to armor, I think you've invalidated all of your arguments.

wormwood
2009-10-21, 07:29 AM
I said i had the feat to cast arcane spells in medium armour.
I don't have any arcane spells though, let alone mage armour...

Wait, wait, wait... you're telling me that you actually took a mediocre (at best) feat to allow you to cast arcane spells in medium armor and you can't cast spells at all? Now why in the hells would you do something like that? I just have to know, unless it's a big secret, what class(es) are you? You have an obscene dex, full armor proficiency, and it looks like you're planning to have arcane casting at some point (maybe).

Did nobody else think this was odd?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-21, 07:52 AM
Apparently I missed some part of the RAW here. Please point out to me where it states that wondrous items cannot have enhancement bonuses to armor.
Magic Armor and Shield Special Ability Descriptions

Most magic armor and shields only have enhancement bonuses. Such items can also have one or more of the special abilities detailed below. Armor or a shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

This is taken from the SRD section on Armor enhancements. Armor and shields may have the enhancements listed in the following section. It allows that. It does not allow wondrous items to do so. This means, by default, they do not. If a specific item does, then it is an exception.

Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed.

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.Anything in there for customizing them? That is SRD, rules for crafting wondrous items. It is primary source. Anything else in the RAW that disagrees with the above method, without explicitly being listed as an update to the above rules, is wrong. As these are 3.5, and thus, more recently published than the Arms and Equipment guide (which is 3.0), they take precedence.


They can have armor bonuses, natural armor bonuses, enhancement bonuses to natural armor, deflection bonuses, sacred bonuses, profane bonuses, and even dodge bonuses, as demonstrated by specific examples of WotC-created wondrous items. I've found no part of the rules that restricts what types of bonuses wondrous items can have.Other than the explicitly laid down allowed rules for crafting in the Magic Item Compendium, any item created is a custom item, which, by default, requires DM approval. The guidelines for creating items with sacred, profane, dodge, and other bonuses are NOT rules. They're guidelines, and they explicitly declare themselves as such.

Further, WotC-created items are the only items that exist, by RAW, other than items explicitly allowed created by rules (not guidelines). Examples include: Scrolls. Armor and shields with armor and shield enhancements. Weapons with weapon enhancements.

The rules don't restrict it because those rules don't talk about what you can't do. They tell you what they can. If they didn't tell you that you can do it, you can't. No arguing that all orcs can fly at a speed of 300 because the rules don't say they can't.


The rules contradict this point explicitly. Bracers of Armor can indeed have armor enhancements like Silent Moves or Fortification. See Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130. As this point is disproven, and you're using "the same reason" to conclude robes cannot have enhancement bonuses to armor, I think you've invalidated all of your arguments.
Using 3.0 tertiary rulebooks to contradict 3.5 SRD and 3.5 item creation rules in the MIC is suspect at best.

The 3.5 sourcebooks and SRD are more recently printed, and are primary source. If a tertiary source disagrees with primary source, it's wrong. These are the rules of the game we play.

EDIT: And while it is the same reason, it does not disprove the argument. A specific exception to the rules does not change the way that the rules function, in general.

It would be like arguing that since the Enlarge Breath feat can stack with itself, then that must mean all arguments that say Enlarge spell cannot stack with itself are disproven.

Different entries, different abilities, different limits and restrictions.

oxinabox
2009-10-21, 08:04 AM
Wait, wait, wait... you're telling me that you actually took a mediocre (at best) feat to allow you to cast arcane spells in medium armor and you can't cast spells at all? Now why in the hells would you do something like that? I just have to know, unless it's a big secret, what class(es) are you? You have an obscene dex, full armor proficiency, and it looks like you're planning to have arcane casting at some point (maybe).

Did nobody else think this was odd?
Heh Heh Heh
That's exactly the effect i was hoping for...

I've said i before, and I'll say it again:
"Never argue matters of RAW with Curmudgeon, He's always Right"
take from that what you will



warlock, with the feat Medium armour proficeny, wich dm let me retrain now that i have class levels in a class wich grants full armour proficency.

Willis888
2009-10-21, 09:32 AM
Bracers of Armor +5 and Robes +5 don't stack. Only Dodge bonuses stack, and both the above items give an Armor bonus.

Rings, cloaks, belts, and helmets all tend to give Deflection bonuses and will not stack.



Wow that's some pretty powerful stuff. Using this logic a fighter with a tunic of armor +8, with permanent magic vestment +5 and a dexterity of at least 20, would be better protected then a fighter in +5 full plate.

Until they get caught flat footed - you need the feat Uncanny Dodge and a Dex of at least 30 to make it work with Robes or Bracers +5.

If your Dex is between 18 and 30, a Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt can be optimal and will add 4 AC with 0% Arcane Spell Failure.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-21, 09:39 AM
In one of the (gasp!) 3rd party Ultimate Equipment Guides we have what amounts to Pantyhose of Armor +1; it adds an untyped armor bonus to AC that is written to stack with other armors. It can be enhanced like other armors (though Enhancement bonuses to armor do not stack) but you can add funny stuff like Fortification, slick, etc to help get out of sticky situations. not recommended for male characters other than performing Bards. :smalltongue:

Spidersilk is a good option, and can be worth the proficiency feat.
Amulet of natural armor does stack with existing natural armor, as it now states: "Adds a +x bonus to existing natural armor".

Cieyrin
2009-10-21, 11:46 AM
Using 3.0 tertiary rulebooks to contradict 3.5 SRD and 3.5 item creation rules in the MIC is suspect at best.

The 3.5 sourcebooks and SRD are more recently printed, and are primary source. If a tertiary source disagrees with primary source, it's wrong. These are the rules of the game we play.

I don't see anywhere in the DMG or MIC that refutes that you can't have armor special abilities on Bracers of Armor as outlined in Arms and Equipment, though, either. This only applies to Bracers of Armor, it should be noted. Using that reasoning for items with similar bonuses would fall outside of RAW and be up to the DM in question. It's reasonable to do so, though, I'd say.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-21, 02:33 PM
Other than the explicitly laid down allowed rules for crafting in the Magic Item Compendium, any item created is a custom item, which, by default, requires DM approval.
Robes (body slot items) with armor bonuses follow the rules in Magic Item Compendium on pages 233-234, and thus require no special DM dispensation, as long as the robes do not have any nonmagical armor bonuses already.

Using 3.0 tertiary rulebooks to contradict 3.5 SRD and 3.5 item creation rules in the MIC is suspect at best.

The 3.5 sourcebooks and SRD are more recently printed, and are primary source. If a tertiary source disagrees with primary source, it's wrong. These are the rules of the game we play.
1) There is no disagreement. The rule in Arms and Equipment Guide is not contradicted by later D&D publications.

2) Your viewpoint on this matter is in error, per official Wizards of the Coast rules. Quoting from the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide on page 4:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. So Arms and Equipment Guide is an approved secondary source in D&D 3.5. Magic Item Compendium is also an approved secondary (not primary) source in D&D 3.5. There is no designation of "tertiary" source in the rules, though that's commonly used to refer to materials from third-party publishers. Here are the official rules regarding primary and secondary sources.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. You'll note that publication date does not enter into this statement.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 02:50 PM
The confusion comes b/c putting special enchantments on bracers is not given as an option in core (and therefore probably not allowed). Another book allows it, so if your DM allows that book or house rules it in it's fine.

It seems more or less like a reasonable house rule at first even w/o owning the book, except that it helps mages. I mean bracers are usually a bad idea for them due to mage armor, but now they can get all kinds of other enchantments instead. Even other classes wear armor can now get bracers with special +X enchantments at a lower price than it would be to put them on their (already enchanted) armor. So in reality this rule introduces some of the power creep (creep not uber brokenage) that splatbooks are famous for. Something to be aware of maybe, but it's not so OP that your group shouldn't allow such things at their option. Alternatively the DM could impose limitations to prevent stacking abuse in w/e situations he chooses, and give an intentional power boost to everyone else.

Cieyrin
2009-10-21, 03:04 PM
The confusion comes b/c putting special enchantments on bracers is not given as an option in core (and therefore probably not allowed). Another book allows it, so if your DM allows that book or house rules it in it's fine.

It seems more or less like a reasonable house rule at first even w/o the book, except that it helps mages. I mean bracers are usually a bad idea for them due to mage armor, but now they can get all kinds of other enchantments instead. Even other classes wear armor can now get bracers with special +X enchantments at a lower price. So in reality this rule introduces some of the power creep (creep not uber brokenage) that splatbooks are famous for. Something to be aware of maybe, but it's not so OP that your group shouldn't allow such things at their option.

A +1 Soulfire Mithral Buckler costs 26,165 gp, as opposed to the 25,000 gp of +1 Soulfire Bracers of Armor, so slight savings, I suppose.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 03:08 PM
It's a LOT more once you get a +5 buckler and then +1 soulfire bracers on top of that. Sure the +1 is wasted, but overall you save money.

Btw, we're way off topic aren't we. :smallbiggrin:

Cieyrin
2009-10-21, 03:11 PM
It's a LOT more once you get a +5 buckler and then +1 soulfire bracers on top of that. Sure the +1 is wasted, but overall you save money.

Btw, we're way off topic aren't we. :smallbiggrin:

It's not any different than splitting stuff between your armor and your shield or, if you go light armor, to add in a dastana or a chahar-aina or both. The bracers just further split it up, though you couldn't use them at the same time as a dastana, given they both fill the bracer slot.

And yeah, this is a long way away from where this thread started.:smalltongue: