[3.5] Industrial Revolution!

[SirKazum]

First of all, a disclaimer - I know how the following doesn't jive with the concept of most D&D campaign settings, and most DMs would consider it as abuse of the rules. I'm okay with that, and wouldn't try it in a "normal" campaign. It's just that (1) I'm developing an idea for a campaign setting where this sort of thing makes sense and sits well with the concept and feel of the setting, and (2) you could view it as a mental exercise anyway.

OK, that said, consider the following:

1) An Everburning Torch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#everburningTorch) costs 110 gp, due to the following: 60 gp for the basic casting of Continual Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/continualFlame.htm) (2nd spell level x 3rd caster level x 10), plus 50 gp for the material component. All fine and dandy.

2) A magic device trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#crMagicTrap) that casts Continual Flame, assuming the cost of buying traps in the market follows the same logic as other magic items (i.e. twice the base materials cost, plus any extraneous costs), with automatic reset allowing it to cast the spell continually, goes for 11,000 gp (1000 gp x spell level 2 x caster level 3 = 6000 gp, plus 50 gp material components x 100 = 5000 gp). Since trigger doesn't affect the cost of magic traps, let's assume either a timed or touch trigger, something that allows the trap to cast the spell once per round all day if necessary.

I guess you can see where this is going - Everburning Torch Factory! So, moving on...

3) A simple house (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#buyingBuildings), more than enough to set up a small everburning torch factory in, costs 1,000 gp. That amounts to 12,000 gp in sunk costs.

4) If you do a 36-month mortgage (http://www.banksite.com/calc/flap) on those costs, at 2% interest per month, that amounts to monthly payments of 38.99 gp - let's round that up to 40. (I'm assuming 36 months since that's the "critical period" for businesses, by that time the business is either striving or has already flopped. And 2% is a reasonable interest rate for car loans, which have similar periods and values.) If you work 20 days per month on the factory (reasonable, figuring in weekends, holidays, and the occasional days off for whatever random reason), that amounts to 2 gp per working day.

5) You don't really need skilled people to operate the factory - just retrieve the nonmagical torch from storage, put it in the trap, take it back out and put in the "finished goods" storage. In order to streamline the process, since it requires more than one step, let's say you hire 2 unskilled laborers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) (one to feed the nonmagical torches in, one to take the finished goods away) at 1 sp per day each. Since you've got some riches going around there, you should hire a guard as well (mercenary soldier, trained hireling) for 3 sp/day. Total cost so far, including mortgage: 2.5 gp/day.

6) Theoretically, you could be producing one torch per round, but let's be generous and allow for some inefficiency in the process. Let's call it 1 torch per 2 rounds, or 5 torches per minute. That gives you 300 torches per hour, or 2400 torches per 8-hour working day. In order to get rounder numbers, let's say you push those workers a bit harder and get 2500. At 1 cp per nonmagical torch, that amounts to 25 gp per day in materials costs, or 27.5 gp total.

7) So you're producing 2500 torches per day, at a cost of 2750 cp. That makes a cost of, I dunno, little more than one copper piece per torch. Of course, there are other costs I haven't factored in (admittedly because I'm less sure how to calculate them) - storage, distribution, marketing, etcetera. What the hell, let's say all of that doubles the cost. That's being generous, since remember, you're dealing with mass production here, and most of these costs are fixed. At about 2 cp per torch, that's still low. Let's call it, what, 3 or 4 cp per torch after taxes and whatever else you wanna throw in there. With all of that, you could sell Everburning Torches for 5 cp and still make a killing.

My point is - by using the wonders of mass-production and assembly-line (though a rudimentary one, I admit), you can lower costs enough to sell something that's ordinarily worth 110 gp for 5 cp. That's 1/20,000 the original cost. The main engine that allows that is permanent magic items, such as that trap. Even if you disallow traps for that purpose, you could still use a permanent command-word item with no daily usage limit, and the math wouldn't be really that different (the item would go for 15,800 gp rather than 12,000). If you apply the same logic to other spells, especially "service" type spells (Sending, Cure Disease, Teleportation Circle), you end up with spellcasting services being available to the common man at an entirely affordable price. Neat huh?

I know for a fact something along these lines has been discussed here before (I've seen mentions of Create Food traps), but I don't know how well have you guys gotten into the implications of using magic items and magic traps to mass-produce spells. Especially the business and social implications. As I said, I'm working on a setting where this sort of thing makes sense (expect to see it on the Homebrew forum any day now), so I'd like to kick off some discussion about it. I'll come back to this thread with more ideas later too...

[Myshlaevsky]

Rule-by-Wizards with discussion pertaining to goods, transport and food production through traps has certainly been discussed before. Emperor Tippy, who recently returned to the forum, was the originator of the idea. However, the Tippyverse also involves a lot of wilderness and Mindrape spells which probably don't gel so well with the idea you have in mind. This magic technology stuff is abusable; it really just depends on where you want to stop.

That said, now that Emperor Tippy is back we might get a sweet description/explanation of the Tippyverse in this thread. Here's hoping.

[bosssmiley]

@OP: Errr, do my eyes deceive me, or did you just bring mortgage interest rates into a D&D discussion there? :smallconfused:

("Those crazy Brazilians are opening up whole new fields of catgirl massacre even as we speak! Herr President, we cannot allow a Catgirl Gap to develop.")

The whole magical industrial revolution think has been done to reducto ad absurdem already (google Tippyverse). It doesn't take into account the knock-on effects of destabilising the magical equilibrium of the game world though (for which delicious, plot hook-rich juicy gaming fodder please google Dark Sun, Netheril, the Glantri Radiance, and/or the rpg.net thread The City Built Around the Tarrasque). All that magic come from somewhere you know. :smallbiggrin:

"It's the ambassador to the Sultan of the Efreet. Says he wants his cut on the everburning torches as they use pure elemental flame. He also says it's a nice city we have here, and it'd be a shame if anything happened to it..."

[JellyPooga]

One problem with that particular example is your product; Everburning torches. They last, well, forever so once you reach a certain number of sales, your profits will take a sharp drop and never really recover. There are really only so many of them that you could sell to the local market and eventually the world. Sure, you'll have a certain number of sales due to people losing them, breaking them, setting up new homes and such, but it will pale in comparison to your shorter term sales.

I'm not saying that the theory is bad, but that particular example isn't actually that viable as a long term endeavour. What you want is something that will deteriorate or that has a certain lifespan; if you want to go with the 'light' theme, research a [light] spell that has a "days/lvl" duration (the opposite of Deeper Darkness, if you will) and make them instead. Sell them cheap enough and people will happily buy a dozen every month...hell, go one better and advocate 'recycling' by offering a discount for return customers returning the original receptacle. Because your initial outlay is fixed and your materials cost next to nothing, you can sell them at more or less whatever price you like. Selling at 1cp per item, you do the torch market out of business because their product costs the same and only lasts 6 hours, whilst yours lasts days. There is a problem with this product as well inasmuch as it's not as transportable because the duration starts from the time it's created, meaning that you can't really export your product, but when you're selling that many locally anyway, that becomes less of an issue.

[charl]

Let's say you could do this. You start making 2500 torches per day. Who are you going to sell them to? After about a year of operating this you'd have enough torches to supply to whole demand of a city as Sharn (from Eberron). And that is without counting other businesses opposing you. Plus the torches would cost a lot less when they are so common.

You'd have to install a "manufacturing error" to make sure the torches give out after a while if you want to stay in business.

EDIT Damn ninjas!

[SirKazum]

Yeah, I realize mass-producing *truly* permanent items isn't so smart, as our modern industries have already found out :smallwink: That was just more of a proof-of-concept. For the torches themselves, you could research a spell that gives them a more limited lifespan (but not too limited), like 1 month/level.

As for setting repercussions, my whole point is having an entire setting built around this. It's basically a modern-ish setting, with modern and/or futuristic concepts of economy, society and culture, and where mass-production and mass consumption are a way of life. I'm talking about dropping by the supermarket to buy an enchanted light on your way to the teleport station. (BTW, if you're wondering about the logistics of transporting those mass-produced goods, teleportation circles should take care of a large part of that.) The whole thing is supposed to be a radical re-fluffing of D&D, to completely move away from the fantasy genre and recast it as sci-fi. I hope it makes more sense when I post it on Homebrew...


And Boss Smiley, don't worry, the catgirls are safe... I'm talking about mortgages because this is supposed to work within a modern-ish economy. See above. As for depleting the magical (or rather psychic, since this is sci-fi) resources, this could be dealt with in the setting in a manner similar to environmental concerns - as in, it doesn't make that much difference in a small scale, but when you're talking about large societies with millions of inhabitants doing it in a regular basis, then yeah you might run into problems, although you could see that merely as a need for new solutions rather than an absolute roadblock.

[Johel]

Another reason why no sane wizard ever did it :
Everburning torches, as they stand, are luxury goods.

If you mass-produce luxury goods or it just become mundane.
Since Wizards can make a killing out of their spells anyway, they simply don't need the whole "large business" to make a living.
Most wizards are low-level and band in Guild for influence. Those wizards are the ones who would market their skills, as high level wizards don't even need to work : they either rule kingdoms or are paid to simply "be there".

So, guilds of low-level wizards have the quasi-monopoly on everburning torches production. Let's call it a "cartel" : you can be part of it but you have to agree on the rules. And rule number one is : your minimum price is 110 gp, no alternative.

If you follow the rules, you make an average 120 gp daily net profit for selling two torches. Shouldn't be hard to find 2 customers a day or even to get a contract with a lord to light up his whole palace over a month time.
120 gp a day, that's still LARGELY more than most folks, which means you'll live comfortably and because the offer is very low, you'll never run out of customers or have to compete with other wizards (with whom you can even agree to divide the markets).

If you don't follow the rules, you have an army of low-level wizards who are already rich (as opposed to you, who must still sell those torches) and will QUICKLY learn that somebody's selling thousands of everburning torches to commoners. Result : they kill you, period. No sane lord would ever annoy a guild of wizards for the murder of a lone salesman.

If you don't follow the rules and have the power to oppose the guilds, then you probably aren't going to sell torches anyway. You are a high-level wizard who has other concern than selling items for a living or making real estate investment. You fight demons, dragons and liches, you save the world from dark conspiracies and are so rich from the loots/rewards that spending that money will be the trickiest part, not making it.

Only exception might be charity... but then, villains will used the "magic traps" too but for darker purposes.

[Foryn Gilnith]

@OP: Errr, do my eyes deceive me, or did you just bring mortgage interest rates into a D&D discussion there? ."

I use interest all the time in my game. It's medieval times, you have guilds. And usurers.


Emperor Tippy, who recently returned to the forum

OH, wow. Nice. glad to see that innovative mind is back around.

[Another_Poet]

The only problems with your business model are:

(1) A single low-level mercenary is not going to stop a party of 1st level thieves stealing your inventory for fun and profit. Security (and security costs) will have to be ramped up.

(2) You don't have a sustainable market. After you sell a few hundred or even a few thosuand torches in the local region, the market is flooded and you customer base is gone. These are everburning torches, after all. You'll need to figure out a way to ship the torches to faraway locations, or else move your operation every few months.

To minimise the problems of (2) you could charge more like 80 or 90 gp per torch, significantly undercutting your rivals' price of 110 but not pricing the goods so low as to quickly flood the market. It's still out of the reach of most peasants at this price, but nobles can light up their whole estate, and your profit margin is huge.

[ocdscale]

3) A simple house (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#buyingBuildings), more than enough to set up a small everburning torch factory in, costs 1,000 gp. That amounts to 12,000 gp in sunk costs.

4) If you do a 36-month mortgage (http://www.banksite.com/calc/flap) on those costs, at 2% interest per month, that amounts to monthly payments of 38.99 gp - let's round that up to 40. (I'm assuming 36 months since that's the "critical period" for businesses, by that time the business is either striving or has already flopped. And 2% is a reasonable interest rate for car loans, which have similar periods and values.) If you work 20 days per month on the factory (reasonable, figuring in weekends, holidays, and the occasional days off for whatever random reason), that amounts to 2 gp per working day.


This is no where near correct.
A quick look easily reveals that 39gp (your calculated monthly payment) times 36 months is far short of the 12,000 you are borrowing.

At 2% a month, borrowing 12,000 amortized over 36 months, your monthly payments are 470.79gp.

Edit:
Playing around with the website you linked, what you did wrong is that you put 2% for the interest (instead of the annual interest rate of 24%) and you put 36 in the year entry mistaking it for months.

[SirKazum]

Oh, my bad then. Yeah, the monthly payments did seem kinda low... I guess the problem here was that I'm not familiar with annual mortgage, just with monthly financed loans, and that site was the closest thing I could find in short notice in English (since I wanted to link to it). Then I just assumed they were using the same calculation I'm familiar with, only using years instead of months and annual interest rates, so I thought just putting months where the years go and writing the monthly interest rate would give the correct result. My bad indeed. But still, the price remains in the single-digit CP per torch range.

[Emperor Tippy]

You are going about it wrong.

What you want is an Automatic Reset Trap of Fabricate (with a hidden switch bypass). It costs you 22,500 GP + (1/3 the items price*100) to create a factory that will produce one of an item every 6 seconds. One that produces backpacks, for example, costs 23,367 GP.

For a single payment you can produce 14,440 backpacks per day. And if you are flooding the market, just hit the bypass to turn it off.


You can also (if you want to spend the gold), create a factory that produces adamantine bastard swords. It only costs you 123,666.667 GP and produces enough swords to outfit an army in a day.

Hmm, if you can pump your CL high enough you could make one that pops out fully functional warships at the same rate (14,400 per day).

Incidentally, you are over a year late on your idea.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86944

[Another_Poet]

And if you are flooding the market, just hit the bypass to turn it off.

Ha, not quite how it works. I mean yes, if you stop producing and wait long enough the market will return to normal; but a good business plan involves something better than just "well, we'll stop production for months or years and wait for the price to come back up."

You need a method of distribution so you can service a variety of markets near and far, and never have a need to turn off the assembly line.

Of course your very own Tippyverse would have no problem shipping goods long distances for cheap, but the OP here seems to be assuming a medieval style fantasy world where this form of mass production is a brand new innovation.

[jseah]

Here's how you streamline the process:

Lesser Planar Binding/Ally on Lantern Archons.

They have continual flame as an SLA (no material component) at will.
Your profit margin just got higher.

They also have a 50lb teleport without error.
Good day to you, portable hole, do you mind joining me in this lucrative endeavor?

[Randel]

A few ideas:

1). You could probably use the summon monster spell to summon lantern archons to cast the spell. As long as you are a spellcaster of high enough level to cast the summoning spell then you can cast it multiple times a day and just have the archon do the work. No cost whatsoever aside from needing to cast the spells. Plus, you won't flood the market as fast and such.

2). You could, instead of creating everburning torches as a luxury good, use the trap to 'mint your own currency'.

People use gold pieces because they are a standardized currency that has inherent value since gold is valuable. Light is also valuable (to an extent), you could probably get a bunch of glass beads and have your device cast continual flame on them and use them as your own currency. People know that the glowing bead that never goes out is magical... and if somebody wants to counterfeit the things then let them. If they feel like setting up a huge expensive magical trap (that can be tracked down and disabled by a rogue) then let them. If they want to burn 50 gp to make a glowing bead that is a currency worth about 1 gp at best then let them.

Only problem you might run into is if people start casting dispel magic on peoples money or if cheapscate wisards try casting Light on beads to pass them off as money... but if a spellcaster want to waste magic to mess with sombodies pocket change then they have every right to expect the cops to come down on them like a ton of brick golems.

Plus, you could set up various denominations of your currency by casting the flame on different objects... maybe small black beads for copper pieces, glass beads for gold, and long bars for platinum. Find a way to adjust the color and brightness of the flame and it might be even better.

Not sure how well glowing money would be as a currency... would be alot easier to find if it gets dropped on the floor and people would need thick wallets to keep the light from shining through. Plus, if a glowing bead is used as the currency then its likely that alot of the gold would go out of circulation (since people tend to spend 'bad' money and save 'good' money) and more gold would stay in banks and such. Which means that gold would become more valuable and could be sold for lots of glowing beads.

If monsters steal all the gold in a place, then the people still have beads to use, if the monsters steal the beads... just look for a cave thats glowing all sparkly bright like a christmas tree.

And then, with a light source being so unbelivable cheap and easy to access (anyone with some pocket change can plop it into a lantern and navigate their way home... althouh pickpockets could see their money easier... and cops can see stolen money easier) then things like night and day are no longer constants. People can work at night and sleep in the day (while before they were limited by the light of the sun).

In short, if you can mass produce permanant mgical trinkets for pennies, try using them as a currency instead of a comodity. Even if it turns out you can't print your own money then you could try selling them as a commodity again or just mass-produce them until the whole world is glowing.

[Dervag]

Hmm, if you can pump your CL high enough you could make one that pops out fully functional warships at the same rate (14,400 per day).Tippy, I'm almost afraid to ask, but...

where would you find the crews?

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, I'm almost afraid to ask, but...

where would you find the crews?

Permanent Animate Objects trap added in so that they are animated warships and can crew themselves?

Not really sure where you would get the crews, I was just looking at how quickly you could make the ships.

"Why yes, we can produce an entirely new fleet numbering in the thousands of ships inside of a day".

[Choco]

Permanent Animate Objects trap added in so that they are animated warships and can crew themselves?

Not really sure where you would get the crews, I was just looking at how quickly you could make the ships.

"Why yes, we can produce an entirely new fleet numbering in the thousands of ships inside of a day".

Hmm, maybe you can make an assembly line with these traps.. Fabricate a pebble, go through 2 Polymorph Any Object traps to turn the pebbles into humans, then a Mindrape trap at the end to give them all the skills they need to perform their function on the ship?

[Oslecamo]

Permanent Animate Objects trap added in so that they are animated warships and can crew themselves?

Not really sure where you would get the crews, I was just looking at how quickly you could make the ships.

"Why yes, we can produce an entirely new fleet numbering in the thousands of ships inside of a day".

Ah, so that's how those damn divine crusaders get so much cannon fodder giant robots!:smallbiggrin:

It would be a perfect plan, if it wasn't for the fact that your factory of doom will atract adventurers like bees to honey.:smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, maybe you can make an assembly line with these traps.. Fabricate a pebble, go through 2 Polymorph Any Object traps to turn the pebbles into humans, then a Mindrape trap at the end to give them all the skills they need to perform their function on the ship?

A very good idea, except it depends on a common sense and non RAW interpretation of Mindrape. It's the interpretation that I favor but by RAW, even though you can program in a life that has been a sailor for 20 years, they won't get any actual ranks in the skill out of it.

[Choco]

A very good idea, except it depends on a common sense and non RAW interpretation of Mindrape. It's the interpretation that I favor but by RAW, even though you can program in a life that has been a sailor for 20 years, they won't get any actual ranks in the skill out of it.

Oh, ranks in the skill isnt what I was referring to. What I actually meant was what you mentioned, programming the knowledge on how to do their jobs into them so there is no training time. I guess I should have definitely worded that better. But yeah, they dont need skills of feats or anything, just be ready to work out of the box, as they are just expendable clones after all!

[Radar]

Why bother with human-like sailors, when you have nanobots (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/%5BUpdated%5D_Nanobots_Conquer_D38D_AC_Attack_and_ Skill_Records). An animated warship with thousands upon thousands of nanobots set on "Aid another" task will be able to do anything imaginable and beyond. If you set the nanobots to operate your Orb of X turrets, then they will be able hit any target within range.

That's where the idea producing 14,400 animated objects per day really shines, since you are able to not only boost your power to silly levels, but also keep it in secret for quite a while (who would expect a pile of sand grains, to give you +NI to skill checks/attack/AC). :smallbiggrin:

edit: there should be a trap of Awaken Construct there somewhere in the process for added versatility.

[jiriku]

Psychic surgery trap to reassign their skill points after convincing them that they're sailors and not stones?

[Bayar]

Getting effigies of sailors ? There should be some kind of an invention, similar to a creation forge that should give sentience to robots...

A trap that fabricates the body of the thing, a bigass chamber that casts permanent unseen servant on the body, or awaken the constructs...

[SirKazum]

Oy, did the thread ever take a turn for the thousands-of-warships-manned-by-nanobots cheese while I was away :smalltongue: Can't say this is really surprising, though, considering the topic.


Of course your very own Tippyverse would have no problem shipping goods long distances for cheap, but the OP here seems to be assuming a medieval style fantasy world where this form of mass production is a brand new innovation.

Quite to the contrary, my friend. As I've said further up the thread, most of these thoughts are focused toward an idea of a D&D-as-postmodern-sci-fi setting I've got going in my head, where this sort of mass-production would be well-established, and where Teleportation Ring networks would be part of daily life. (Maybe I should have posted about this in Homebrew first, and posted this thread later, with a link to the Homebrew post.)

But my main intent with this thread, which is why I didn't bother describing the setting first, is just taking a look at the math involved and see how it goes. See if this whole "magical mass-production" thing is economically and socially viable (which is why I really appreciate the input about market flooding, distribution, resource depletion etc.), and assuming it is, gauge what would be an appropriate price for mass-produced magical effects and items. Again, I'm assuming a society where people selling magical services in bulk for an affordable price is a part of daily life.

And Tippy - first, thanks for bringing your insight to this thread. From what I've heard, you seem to be the authority on this stuff :smallwink: Second, believe me when I say I've already thought about Fabricate traps. They're supposed to be the cornerstone of consumerist society in my hypothetical postmodern setting (along with Create Food traps, of course). I decided to start with the Everburning Torch Factory instead because it lends itself to what I believe is some really cool comparison with the "traditional" price of the item, and also because I'd stray a bit away from RAW rules in Fabricate traps, out of personal preference, which would muddle up the discussion too much. (Namely, I'd rule it that the material component - which is, raw materials - would have to be fed as the trap works, rather than when it's created. I just like it better that way.)

Randel - cool idea about currency, but I'd rather use something simpler for that, such as paper bills stamped with Arcane Mark and/or Nystul's Magic Aura for safety reasons (still going with the postmodern setting idea above). Not quite sure how to make that work though.

On a general note, there's one big hurdle that makes a truly "magic-consumerist" world difficult - namely, the fact that there isn't really much you can do to lower the price of magic items. I don't really see any way to streamline or mass-produce them. So, the populace in this setting could have widely-available magic effects, cast at shops or other institutions that carry permanent magic items, but not widely-available magic items. Meh, I don't really mind that much.

There seems to be a much bigger hurdle though, and maybe one of the biggest impediments to this whole magic cornucopia - the XP economy. Regardless of the fact that the GP cost of these magic items can be easily paid back, they still cost XP, and (it seems to me) that's a kinda limited and precious resource. So, I'm wondering if there's any way to work around that, hopefully something that doesn't involve obvious cheese, like mass-producing creatures and then killing them...

[Emperor Tippy]

A wish trap can mass produce an individual magic item of up to 25,000 GP. For more expensive items you have to grab a Solar or effetie and wish them up.

[Logalmier]

This is a stupid question, but doesn't Fabricate need raw materials to create something? Why isn't that being factored in here?

Five bucks says that Tippy will say that you're Fabricating atoms to create your items.:smallamused:

[SirKazum]

A wish trap can mass produce an individual magic item of up to 25,000 GP. For more expensive items you have to grab a Solar or effetie and wish them up.

Ingenious, but I still see one problem with it. The XP cost for each Wish is 6,000 XP (5,000 for the basic Wish + 1,000 for the item creation, assuming a 25,000-gp item). Times 100 for an unlimited-use item, that amounts to 600,000 XP. Where the hell are you going to acquire that? I mean, what level do you even have to be before you can have 600,000 spare XP (i.e. above the minimum for your current level)? More than 600th level, I'd assume. That's why I've been avoiding unlimited-use items made from spells with XP costs.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ingenious, but I still see one problem with it. The XP cost for each Wish is 6,000 XP (5,000 for the basic Wish + 1,000 for the item creation, assuming a 25,000-gp item). Times 100 for an unlimited-use item, that amounts to 600,000 XP. Where the hell are you going to acquire that? I mean, what level do you even have to be before you can have 600,000 spare XP (i.e. above the minimum for your current level)? More than 600th level, I'd assume. That's why I've been avoiding unlimited-use items made from spells with XP costs.

That is what the Solar is for. And I messed up the numbers on that wish trap (it's what I get for forgetting to fact check before posting).

[Fizban]

Solar wishing is the easiest way, but if that's not your cup of tea you could use Liquid Agony/Amrosia. The essence of pain provides 3xp per dose towards item creation for an evil caster, or the essence of joy provides 2xp per dose for a good caster. Find a way to drop the casting time from 1 day to 1 action (I'm sure someone knows how) and make a trap, then torture a city or host the biggest orgy ever to power all the devices you'll make after the first.

Souls can be used, but depending on the source they provide different amounts. Sometimes they're worth single digits, and other times in the thousands.

[Oslecamo]

A wish trap can mass produce an individual magic item of up to 25,000 GP. For more expensive items you have to grab a Solar or effetie and wish them up.

Actualy, from the wording of SLAs, one could say simply that since SLAs never have an exp cost, then a wish SLA can only create items with no gold cost (or up the the basic 25000 GP)

[Radar]

Solar wishing is the easiest way, but if that's not your cup of tea you could use Liquid Agony/Amrosia. The essence of pain provides 3xp per dose towards item creation for an evil caster, or the essence of joy provides 2xp per dose for a good caster. Find a way to drop the casting time from 1 day to 1 action (I'm sure someone knows how) and make a trap, then torture a city or host the biggest orgy ever to power all the devices you'll make after the first.

Souls can be used, but depending on the source they provide different amounts. Sometimes they're worth single digits, and other times in the thousands.
So... "Soylent Green is pain/joy"? :smalltongue:
I like that. Makes population happines vital to the economy.

[Prime32]

On these motion triggered traps, couldn't you have some automated form of movement? For instance, something like a large water-wheel with panels extending from it far enough apart that they arrive in the trap area one round apart (the rotation is supplied by gravity pushing the created objects down).

[Bayar]

Solar wishing is the easiest way, but if that's not your cup of tea you could use Liquid Agony/Amrosia. The essence of pain provides 3xp per dose towards item creation for an evil caster, or the essence of joy provides 2xp per dose for a good caster. Find a way to drop the casting time from 1 day to 1 action (I'm sure someone knows how) and make a trap, then torture a city or host the biggest orgy ever to power all the devices you'll make after the first.

Souls can be used, but depending on the source they provide different amounts. Sometimes they're worth single digits, and other times in the thousands.

Are you trying to create the Philosopher's Stone here ?