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Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 01:03 PM
And by gritty I mean the pain/damage your characters can take before going down. For help, I'll post several categories of my personal scale of gritiness, with examples and descritions. Feel free to give your own favorites, but please share with us how much lethality you like in your game and why.


Rain falls, everybody dies
-Characters can be easily one-shoted by pretty much anything. Your best bet of survival in combat is being really really careful and/or surrounding yourself with expendable meat shields, but even then when they hit you probably roll over and die. Even geting out pimped out gear will only give you a shlitly better odds of survival.
-Pretty much anything that hurts you is life threatening.
Examples: 1st level D&D 3.5, call of Chutchulu, more realistic systems at low points, Gantz(manga), Battle Royal(manga)


It hurts!
-Characters can endure some damage, but stronger foes, numerous foes or lucky foes will still make you bite the dust if you don't take care. You can probably whitstand one nasty blow, but after that it gets risky. But at least you can pick a brawl fight with that farmer with a pitchfork whitout needing to worry so much.
-Not all blows are life threatening, but those who can one-shot you are still common.
Examples:2-6th level D&D 3.5, more realistic systems at higher point costs , many action movies, nameless characters on the WH40K universe.

I...Can...Still...Move...
-Characters can actualy whitstand a good amount of damage, and they can now hold some time even against stronger foes or hordes of enemies, altough they'll still go down if they abuse their luck too much.
-You can take a lot of blows before going down. You only really need to fear death if you find yoursef against overwhelming odds.
Examples:7-10th level D&D 3.5, realistic systems at high points builds, LOTR and many other fantasy heros, the first half of 4e D&D.


It's only a flesh wound!
-Characters can whitstand lots of damage. Geting parts of your body ripped off is a minor incovenience and few things other than total overkill will make you stop moving.
-Giant monsters step on you and you live to tell the tale. You can safely collect gruesome wounds.
Examples:11-16th level D&D 3.5, Bersek(manga), realistic systems at higher points build with special options available, the second half of D&D 4e, named characters on WH40K universe.


Titanium skin.
-If properly built, characters are basicaly immune to lesser enemies, but foes of their level or stronger foes may still pierce their defences in one shot(or a quick burst) with a combination of skill and luck.
-You swim trough lava, jump down from mountains and then step up, and being on fire is just a minor incovenience.
Examples: 17th-20th level D&D 3.5, Hellsing(manga), most recent videogames.


Can't touch this!
Characters just can't be one shoted. At best, the character defenses may be grinded down in a batle of atriction untill they go down.
-Attacks that would blow up planets glance out of you.
Examples: D&D game spiraled out of control, Dragonball Z(anime), Exalted.

I'm using this as the first step of my own D&D 3.X rebalance project(wich may or not ever be ended due to RL and the net), so any and all opinions will be welcome.

arguskos
2009-10-20, 01:10 PM
I personally prefer somewhere between It Hurts! and I...Can...Still...Move.... I like the challenge and danger this level of lethality provides. Hell, I run games in this range, at any level. To my mind, the world is scary and mean, and adventuring is dangerous. :smallamused:

Nero24200
2009-10-20, 01:12 PM
It really depends. If I'm told beforehand what "feel" we're going for in a campaign, I'll prefer certain options. If it's a dark, gothic setting, I wouldn't mind gritty, but if we're playing the D'n'D equivilent of DBZ then I'll want the grittiness toned down.

Generally, I prefer a "If you do something stupid you suffer for it" mentality though, I wouldn't let PC's breeze through a situation if they made a bunch of stupid moves, regardless of how gritty I want the campaign.

Indon
2009-10-20, 01:14 PM
I range all across the spectrum.

In fact, I am currently playing in a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying campaign (which falls solidly under, "Rain falls, everyone dies") and running an Exalted campaign.

An FYI: Some Exalted characters can be one-shot. It's all about how you build your character. But, yeah, if you build with a mind for combat you're semi-invulnerable (or better).

Godskook
2009-10-20, 01:21 PM
I like it between It hurts! and It's only a flesh wound! Preferably closer to I...Can...Still...Move... than either end. However, your scale seems to be mostly about in-combat grittiness, as opposed to non-combat grittiness, which I like being far and away less gritty than my combats.

bosssmiley
2009-10-20, 01:21 PM
It all depends on what level we're playing at, and what game we're playing. Different games have different survivability expectations, and it's a poor player who doesn't bother to learn about or can't adapt their play to a range of them.

So, all of the above. :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2009-10-20, 01:24 PM
In theory I like grit, but in practice it's too annoying to keep track of. I like exactly as much grit that is more interesting than tedious.

I also don't like perfectly realistic games. Nobody wants to send their characters to physical therapy to recuperate from a pulled muscle. That's real life and it sucks.

Finally, I like seeing characters progress as the game develops. I don't need a lot of power, but I don't want to feel weaker in the middle of the game than I was at the start. I saw this happen to a lot of Shadowrun characters as their equipment degraded. Some amount of degradation during a mission is cool, but if at the end of the mission I feel I could be more powerful by ditching my character and starting over, something is very wrong. (This mostly just applies in hack and slash games. I wouldn't abandon a character who lost a limb if he was thoroughly tied up in plot. I'd see that as trading a limb to gain story.)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-20, 01:26 PM
I prefer something between It hurts! and I...Can...Still...Move..., since I found that that's just the right place to allow for combats against BBEGs, large groups of mooks, or other powerful threats without dying instantly while still ensuring that a stupid or foolhardy move can definitely kill you. Too far below that, and PCs become scared of combat; too far above, and they can ignore tactics in favor of overwhelming force.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 01:30 PM
I like it between It hurts! and It's only a flesh wound! Preferably closer to I...Can...Still...Move... than either end. However, your scale seems to be mostly about in-combat grittiness, as opposed to non-combat grittiness, which I like being far and away less gritty than my combats.

So, you believe that enviromental hazards should be much less dangerous than the enemies you're facing? What about semi-combat stuff, like being dropped from a cliff, or starting to run out of air underwater while fighting an aquatic enemy?

FoE
2009-10-20, 01:32 PM
I tend to prefer "It's Only A Flesh Wound!" I can be a badass, but not an invincible badass.

Solaris
2009-10-20, 01:35 PM
Rain falls, everybody dies
-Characters can be easily one-shoted by pretty much anything. Your best bet of survival in combat is being really really careful and/or surrounding yourself with expendable meat shields, but even then when they hit you probably roll over and die. Even geting out pimped out gear will only give you a shlitly better odds of survival.
-Pretty much anything that hurts you is life threatening.
Examples: 1st level D&D 3.5, call of Chutchulu, more realistic systems at low points, Gantz(manga), Battle Royal(manga)
Oh yes, right here. Me love it looong time.


It hurts!
-Characters can endure some damage, but stronger foes, numerous foes or lucky foes will still make you bite the dust if you don't take care. You can probably whitstand one nasty blow, but after that it gets risky. But at least you can pick a brawl fight with that farmer with a pitchfork whitout needing to worry so much.
-Not all blows are life threatening, but those who can one-shot you are still common.
Examples:2-6th level D&D 3.5, more realistic systems at higher point costs , many action movies, nameless characters on the WH40K universe.
... I'm usually shamed into playing this on account of players don't like making new characters every other adventure. Pansies.

Myshlaevsky
2009-10-20, 01:37 PM
I have no real preference. It would depend on the game. I don't think I've ever played anything that was full on Rain falls, everybody dies, though.

The Demented One
2009-10-20, 01:38 PM
Exalted should really be classified based on whether or not players and Storyteller's are going for paranoia-level optimization. Normal Exalted is probably at the "It Hurts!" level, Paranoia Exalted is definitely "Can't Touch This." With pretty much no middle ground in between.

arguskos
2009-10-20, 01:38 PM
Hahaha, Rain Falls, Everybody Dies is a guilty pleasure of mine. No one I know likes it though, the pansies I play with. :smallamused:

My favorite set up: Forgotten Realms, high RP, level 1, RF, ED difficulty, elven wizard. Right there, that's a recipe for fun for me! :smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2009-10-20, 01:39 PM
So, you believe that enviromental hazards should be much less dangerous than the enemies you're facing? What about semi-combat stuff, like being dropped from a cliff, or starting to run out of air underwater while fighting an aquatic enemy?

Oops. I meant along the lines of the availability and efficiency of healing supplies. Games with rationed potions and no cleric don't really appeal to me quite so much as one where half-health healing is a free party staple(Reserve feats, draconic auras, etc), almost everyone has an emergency potion or healing belt, and we've got at least one person capable of going heal-bot if we need them to.

Morty
2009-10-20, 01:44 PM
It Hurts! is my favorite level of grit, so to speak. Really strong and competent characters might reach I... Can... Still... Move, but they should be top-notch. And no matter what, a character up against a dozen of competent enemies shouldn't stand a chance.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 01:45 PM
Exalted should really be classified based on whether or not players and Storyteller's are going for paranoia-level optimization. Normal Exalted is probably at the "It Hurts!" level, Paranoia Exalted is definitely "Can't Touch This." With pretty much no middle ground in between.

Maybe, but the fact is that in every exalted thread I've seen pop up around here people always scream for you to get an invulnerable defense before anything else, wich can protect you from anything and everything. Seems a very tempting ability to me, and you don't even need any optimization-fu to acess it.

Indon
2009-10-20, 01:51 PM
Few of those defenses are universally applicable, however, and not all character concepts would have one.

Take, for instance, the party in Keychain of Creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/). Only one member is known to have a perfect defense, one other might, and the others likely don't, and one member is incapable of learning any.

Three of the characters in the party are known to be fairly well-experienced by Exalted standards.

Solaris
2009-10-20, 01:51 PM
It Hurts! is my favorite level of grit, so to speak. Really strong and competent characters might reach I... Can... Still... Move, but they should be top-notch. And no matter what, a character up against a dozen of competent enemies shouldn't stand a chance.

I disagree. A character up against three competent enemies shouldn't stand a chance.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 02:03 PM
Take, for instance, the party in Keychain of Creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/). Only one member is known to have a perfect defense, one other might, and the others likely don't, and one member is incapable of learning any.

Three of the characters in the party are known to be fairly well-experienced by Exalted standards.

Well, let's take a look at the OOTS shall we?
-Roy, clearly a experienced player who knows a lot about the game. But it's playing a cleaving nonprc fighter with high mental stats.
-Haley, clearly another experienced and skillfull player, but picks a somewhat questionable weapon choice for her class.
-Belkar. Combat machine hack and slash powergamer, now learning how to properly roleplay. Has a cat companion and negative wisdom.
-Durkhom is another experienced player, but chooses to pull back his true power most of the time.
-Varsaavius...Just what kind of wizard player would choose evocation and ban conjuration? That player could just exist in the comic.
-The bard. Clearly a noob, but learning trough trial and error.

So, the conclusion is that if you want to have a nice game-based webcomic you need to give your characters optimization flaws, or they'll just curb stomp trough everything. If all the keychain characters had perfect defenses, then the story would just be a lot more duller from the reader's viewpoint, as there wouldn't be damsells in distress to be saved by the party warriors.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 02:07 PM
Just Another Webcomic(or some name like that) has overtly powergaming characters...generally all or most of the party. It still has plenty of humor, it just finds it in different ways. I agree that it wouldnt work with OOTS's character driven style, though.

Morty
2009-10-20, 02:14 PM
I disagree. A character up against three competent enemies shouldn't stand a chance.

In a realistic game, yes. But my point was, even in a game where a character can achieve great and unrealistic power, defeating a dozen enemies at once should be impossible.

Dienekes
2009-10-20, 02:16 PM
Between Rain Falls and I Can Still Move

I like to make my characters always be afraid that they're going to die, but I tend to be a little lenient on them if RP requires it.

The Demented One
2009-10-20, 02:17 PM
Maybe, but the fact is that in every exalted thread I've seen pop up around here people always scream for you to get an invulnerable defense before anything else, wich can protect you from anything and everything. Seems a very tempting ability to me, and you don't even need any optimization-fu to acess it.
It's true. Making a paranoia combo is the way to go if you're going to be up against top-line, optimized Celestial opponents. Not everyone is. My current Solars game has a party of five characters, all built for combat to varying degrees–the Twilight with a thrown excellency, artifact knives, and not much else, all the way up to the Zenith who has the circle's only perfect defense. Doesn't screw up anything, although I suspect most of them are going to rapidly want to invest in perfect defenses...


Take, for instance, the party in Keychain of Creation. Only one member is known to have a perfect defense, one other might, and the others likely don't, and one member is incapable of learning any.
This is pretty accurate in comparison to most circles, I'd imagine (albeit Ten Winds actually can get a perfect defense, being a Sidereal). :smallwink:

Thatguyoverther
2009-10-20, 02:20 PM
I always thought grittiness had more to do with the subject matter of the campaign than the survivability.

I wouldn't call a lighthearted game where all the villains are based on cereal mascots gritty. Even if the characters died often.

Natael
2009-10-20, 02:29 PM
Generally, I prefer a "If you do something stupid you suffer for it" mentality though, I wouldn't let PC's breeze through a situation if they made a bunch of stupid moves, regardless of how gritty I want the campaign.

If you go by real life, getting into a fight can easily count as "something stupid." There's the old mantra of "nobody wins a knife fight" that tends to be true.

Granted, I'm a GURPS player and tend to go more for "It Hurts."
Using proper tactics though, you can make it through a gun fight without too much pain if you do it right, just makes you have proper fear when someone pulls a gun on you (or a sword for that matter), even if you have comperable weapons.

FlyingWhale
2009-10-20, 02:29 PM
I personally LOVE playing Rain Falls-Everybody Dies... I had my start at D&D with Hackmaster... So, well I am spoiled I guess... Everyone I play with? If it's not Exalted it's not worth their time. Damn I love being smashed into goo...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 03:00 PM
In a realistic game, yes. But my point was, even in a game where a character can achieve great and unrealistic power, defeating a dozen enemies at once should be impossible.

Given that this has actually happened in real life, I don't think this is really impossible in even a realistic game, let alone a heroic high fantasy one.

valadil
2009-10-20, 03:01 PM
Out of curiosity, do people play different characters in grittier games? I've played a bit of Deadlands. I don't regard the game as especially realistic, but it certainly has a high character turnover rate.

In any other system I'm the player with a 14 page backstory. I don't do that in Deadlands, because my characters are dead in the time it takes to write a 1 page backstory. Because my Deadlands characters are expendable they're usually one trick ponies. Fun for a session or two, but tiresome after that. Other characters I play are more subtle, but have lasting power (at least in theory, they don't always turn out as interesting as I'd hope).

Anyway, does anyone else play different sorts of characters at different grit levels? Maybe it isn't so much how quickly you die that makes these games more or less appealing, but the sorts of characters you create for a specific type of game.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 03:01 PM
Given that this has actually happened in real life, I don't think this is really impossible in even a realistic game, let alone a heroic high fantasy one.

I think his original post said "competent" enemies. And that we're talking about direct combat, not using choke points or sniping from very afar or laying traps. Direct close combat.

Indon
2009-10-20, 03:24 PM
I always thought grittiness had more to do with the subject matter of the campaign than the survivability.

I wouldn't call a lighthearted game where all the villains are based on cereal mascots gritty. Even if the characters died often.

I dunno. Breakfast of the Gods is a pretty hardcore comic.

Natael
2009-10-20, 03:37 PM
Out of curiosity, do people play different characters in grittier games? I've played a bit of Deadlands. I don't regard the game as especially realistic, but it certainly has a high character turnover rate.

In any other system I'm the player with a 14 page backstory. I don't do that in Deadlands, because my characters are dead in the time it takes to write a 1 page backstory. Because my Deadlands characters are expendable they're usually one trick ponies. Fun for a session or two, but tiresome after that. Other characters I play are more subtle, but have lasting power (at least in theory, they don't always turn out as interesting as I'd hope).


I usually have more RP applicable characters in more realistic games, as there tends to be less combat and a bit more realism. In something like D&D, I tend to play more of kill focused more one-dimentional (though still well done) character.

Croverus
2009-10-20, 03:49 PM
With me its never abotu how easilly can you die. It's how often can the characters get in trouble. I set three traps in a 20ft hallway, one arrow trap right when they entered, a pit trap right after, then another arrow trap. They took 20 on the last 5ft of the hallway before they would keep going. I don't want my characters to be paranoid that they'll die at any moment. I want them to think that they'll have to go through hundreds of minor inconveniances that coudl eventually add up to them being too weak to take on enemies ina normal situation. i reinforce this behavior by haivng them fight squads of enemies when they've had no trap encounters and easilly slaughter the 8+ enemies, but then after trying to get through the "mini tomb of horrors" they have a hard time against one guy.

So my player's don't fear enemies of any kind, unless that enemy has 30ft of trapped hallway the players have to get through. I'm very, very mean with traps because they are usualyl more about disabling abilities and weakening the players. I never one shot them with a trap.

Drascin
2009-10-20, 04:03 PM
Between Can Still Move and Only a Flesh Wound. I like my players to feel badass and know they are among the cream of the crop - but acting severely stupidly will bring your ignominious defeat and failure, and maybe even your death.

jseah
2009-10-20, 04:07 PM
Rain Falls, Everybody Dies...

Sounds like Dwarf Fortress: Adventurer Mode to me. XD

The elf archer shoots at you!
The flying wooden arrow pierces your right lower leg! Your foot is broken! Your 3rd right toe is broken, your 5th right toe is badly pierced!
The flying wooden arrow pierces your left upper arm! Your left upper arm is badly pierced!
The flying wooden arrow pierces your right ear! It is torn off!
The flying wooden arrow pierces your nose! It is badly pierced!

This is from ONE arrow. And I've seen injury logs that go almost twice that length from a single attack. Don't ask what kind of loops the arrow has to do to get that kind of injury.

And this was me having max stats and getting one-shotted from an archer that was out of sight range. It doesn't help that elves get a speed bonus and so he had 1.5 turns to my 1. >.>

Throwing pebbles at dragons and hoping for a one-round lucky crit kill is a viable tactic in Dwarf Fortress. You just have to be patient in rolling up new characters.

jiriku
2009-10-20, 04:18 PM
I've played good games for many years at the It-hurts levels in d10 legend of the five rings.

However, I'm not sure that I agree with one of your premises here: that certain games have a fixed survivability level while D&D survivability scales as you level. It's true that 1st level D&D characters are excessively easy to kill, but D&D characters can face dire peril at all levels of gameplay - they're only invulnerable when presented with challenges well below their level.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 04:39 PM
However, I'm not sure that I agree with one of your premises here: that certain games have a fixed survivability level while D&D survivability scales as you level. It's true that 1st level D&D characters are excessively easy to kill, but D&D characters can face dire peril at all levels of gameplay - they're only invulnerable when presented with challenges well below their level.

Notice that I pointed out that most point based games also increase their power level as your characters get more points.

And anyway, as for D&D, consider the following situations:

Lv2 wizard vs army of vanila lv1 kobold warriors (CR 1/3 each). The wizard is in for very rough ride, despite the kobolds beind technicaly much weaker. A very lucky kobold with an heavy crossbow may actualy one-shot the wizard!

lv7 wizard vs army of skeleton ogres(CR 2 each) with javelins so they can attack at range. The wizard will be able to deal some serious damage if he's prepared, and can deal with a small group skeleton ogres with decent chances of survival, but a large group of them WILL take him down unless he runs away. The wizard still hasn't teleport and his buffs don't last long enough for him to be safe all day.

lv11 wizard vs army of trolls(CR 5 each) with javelins as well. Now the wizard has litle to fear, with tools such as deathcloud and some all day buffs. The trolls can only win if they have really overwhelming numbers and can clot out the sun or something like that.

Lv18 wizard vs army of storm giants(CR 13 each). The giants have impressive stats, chain lighting and freedom of movement. They're still royally screwed even with overwhelming numbers on their side unless one of them is a master tactician and they pool their treasure specialy to counter the wizard tactics. Wizard meanwhile has a wide arsenal of tricks to rape them in all sorts of gruesome ways while protecting his own skin.

So, as you can see, the power level does scale in D&D.

Knaight
2009-10-20, 04:56 PM
Rain Falls Everybody Dies to It Hurts, with the latter being for cinematic games. If you get into direct combat with 6 people, you probably should die, unless there is a huge, huge difference in competence. A farmer that manages a lucky shot with a pitchfork should be able to kill or severely injure you with it, but if it is a classical duel and you are competent then being hit badly is unlikely.

Radiun
2009-10-20, 04:56 PM
If I'm not always a step away from death, then there no satisfaction in success.
So I'm an 8th level druid with no armour who doesn't use Wildshape.
My Dire Bat Companion is awesome though.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:02 PM
I like Rain falls, everybody dies cause it is fun!

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-20, 05:04 PM
Exalted can be very gritty if you're playing a heroic mortal. There are rules for infection, maimed limbs and you have no magic to quickly heal yourself. It can be worse than Rain Falls Everybody Dies.

Most Essence-users don't even have access to persistent or perfect defenses. Anything at Dragon-blooded level or lower will probably be in "I... Can... Still... Move..." level or worse. It's only focused Celestial Exalt builds that reach "Can't Touch This!", like Dawn Castes, Twilight Castes and their equivalents.

Ostien
2009-10-20, 05:08 PM
So gritty, my teeth start to wear down...

I do like Call of Cthulhu for this reason. Rain Falls, Everyone Dies because Dagon comes! IA IA!

Jerthanis
2009-10-20, 05:16 PM
I don't think this is a great scale, since I believe I run a reasonably gritty Exalted game. I mean, it's not a Matthew Woodring Stover novel or anything, but the party interacts with disease, starvation, slavery, mutilation and the creeping inevitability of death, but most of them couldn't be killed if someone threw a skyscraper at them.

Invincible superheroes can in fact take part in flim noir plots.

On the scale, I'd say I'm around "I can still move", but with the proviso that no one will lose a character if they didn't explicitly put their life on the line in the fight.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 05:24 PM
I don't think this is a great scale, since I believe I run a reasonably gritty Exalted game. I mean, it's not a Matthew Woodring Stover novel or anything, but the party interacts with disease, starvation, slavery, mutilation and the creeping inevitability of death, but most of them couldn't be killed if someone threw a skyscraper at them.

Invincible superheroes can in fact take part in flim noir plots.


Well that one I just don't get it. Super diseases it's understandable, but if your character can parry scyscrappers, he should be able to kill something to eat (my first D&D characters started to take the enemy bodies with them after the first time we ran out of regular provisions), and if he can be enslaved, well, then he has clearly messed with someone much stronger than them. And someone's mutilation is somebody else's cool scar. Plus all heros know nothing is eternal and death comes sooner or later. It's more of a matter of how you face it.

Weimann
2009-10-20, 06:02 PM
I would say I like to play somewhere between I...Can...Still...Move..., It's only a flesh wound! and Titanium Skin, preferably in the lower half of the spectrum. That way, combat will provide opportunities to have your character react fittingly, and not have to worry 100% about always doing the most optimized move because otherwise there will zombies gnawing at your feet dammit.

As every other Exalted-related person in this thread, I must also say that I don't think Exalted fit unanimously in the Can't Touch This! category. if you split out D&D over most of the scale, Exalted can also be spread over a large part of it.

The thing with Exalted is that it drives the value of defenses even higher than D&D. If battle healing is a waste of resources in D&D, it is a factual impossibility in Exalted. If you then look at combat at higher levels, most attacks can in fact one-shot the other opponent, which is why there are perfect defenses. The whole game revolves around avoiding to get hit; most attacks do not hit during a campaign. Those that do can mess you up something fierce, however. This is true for almost every level of play, but it escalates with time.

I've not played that high level games, but I have heard optimized, high-Essence games described as a game of rocket tag: everyone slugs around so much attack power that the first one to not defend perfectly WILL be one-shotted. So even there, it's a bit hard to categorize: if you have the proper builds it's Can't Touch This!, but even then, if you slip even once, it can be game over, which is scarily close to It Hurts!, isn't it? :)

Edit: On a side note, I think that "gritty" might be a slightly misleading word to use, too. It describes the feel of the campaign, but the feel of the campaign isn't only determined by how the battles go. Like in Jerthanis example, I'm pretty sure that the Exalts themselves have no problems with food or slavers, but starvation and abuse can still be a theme in the game, which can make it gritty and heavy none the less.

The Demented One
2009-10-20, 06:24 PM
Exalted can be very gritty if you're playing a heroic mortal. There are rules for infection, maimed limbs and you have no magic to quickly heal yourself. It can be worse than Rain Falls Everybody Dies.
That's actually ridiculously true. A heroic mortal against most normal threats is going to be fighting for his life; a heroic mortal against an Exalt has nigh-zero chance of survival.

darkzucchini
2009-10-20, 06:29 PM
I tend to go for the It Hurts area of grittiness. I like my PCs to get progressively more powerful, but still have a chance of having their head hacked off by the lucky mook. Alternity, if you're familiar with the system, is my prefered level of grittiness, where a maxed out swing from an axe or a decent shotgun blast can kill most PCs.

Unfortunately, if I want to play a fantasy game with a large selection of spells, I need a lot of homebrewing for Alternity. So, I've been slowly working on revamping DnD 3.5 to make it more deadly at higher levels (and to make magic more dangerous... for the casters).

Pretty much, I just like to see my players panic.

Oslecamo
2009-10-20, 06:38 PM
I've not played that high level games, but I have heard optimized, high-Essence games described as a game of rocket tag: everyone slugs around so much attack power that the first one to not defend perfectly WILL be one-shotted. So even there, it's a bit hard to categorize: if you have the proper builds it's Can't Touch This!, but even then, if you slip even once, it can be game over, which is scarily close to It Hurts!, isn't it? :)


No it isn't by my scale, because the only way the enemy is going to hit you is after they drain all your essentia by forcing you to spam your perfect defense.

If however the storyteller awards you essentia for you parrying the skyscrappers your oponent is throwing at you, then congratulations, you've entered an endless standstill.

Besides even Titanium skin! level admits the possibility of being one-shoted if the oponent has enough power, skill and luck.

I should've predicted that I would atract the exalted fans rage, but even so I'm not changing the scale, because the game is called exalted. It's primary purpose isn't to play mortals, or even dragonblooded. It was made for you to play exalted characters, and mortals and dragonblooded are there so you can show how awesome your exalted is. Yes dragonblooded are technicaly exalted, but they're just too much on the bottom of the power scale compared to all the others.

I could play a commoner, or a warrior, or a succubbus in a D&D game, the rules are there, but the system wasn't really built with that in mind. The commoner, warrior and succubus were all created primarly to be used as NPCs.

Jerthanis
2009-10-20, 06:51 PM
Well that one I just don't get it. Super diseases it's understandable, but if your character can parry scyscrappers, he should be able to kill something to eat (my first D&D characters started to take the enemy bodies with them after the first time we ran out of regular provisions), and if he can be enslaved, well, then he has clearly messed with someone much stronger than them. And someone's mutilation is somebody else's cool scar. Plus all heros know nothing is eternal and death comes sooner or later. It's more of a matter of how you face it.

It's more cerebral.

My Zenith* had command of a nation, failed to successfully influence the weather to avoid drought, failed to negotiate for aid from a neighboring nation, and a third of his population starved. THAT is how Exalted is Gritty.

Earlier in the game, he was going to break slaves out of the mines of Gem... but he couldn't take them across the desert without them dying of thirst, and he couldn't hide them within the city, as they were branded in various ways. So he had to endure seeing them in chains, because his only other option was to kill them.

*Whoops, he's a Dawn, he acts like a Zenith, but he's a Dawn, I forgot.

Weimann
2009-10-20, 06:51 PM
I'd not call it rage, I just think it's a bit of a broad generalization to say that "everything Exalted is Can't Touch This!" when you've spread D&D out over all six categories. I assure you, I'm not angry, but yeah, I might be derailing a bit. Sorry, I'll stop ^^

...RIGHT AFTER I point out that yeah, stuff like that can happen, but it's not like every battle is like that. At high Essence, it might be the name of the game, but at lower levels, the game is much closer to the middle echelons.

Okay I stop now.

Danin
2009-10-21, 02:01 AM
I prefer somewhere between "Rain falls" and "It Hurts". Level 2 - 3 of D&D tends to roll well with me (3.5) where a crit from someone with an axe is a frightening thing.

Unfortunately, my party is somewhere between "Titanium Skin" and "Can't touch this" for the lower levels, and "We are Gods, gracing the world with our power armored presence" for mid-high.

I'm from the kind of group who will take it as a personal insult if you are DMing when their character dies, their fault or no.

Oslecamo
2009-10-21, 03:35 AM
My Zenith* had command of a nation, failed to successfully influence the weather to avoid drought, failed to negotiate for aid from a neighboring nation, and a third of his population starved. THAT is how Exalted is Gritty.


Ah, well, you're kinda of right there, but for the purpose of this discussion, "gritty" applies only to the PC's mortality level. Your oponents could have catapults of inocent plagued farmers and cover their walls and shields with puppies that as long as your character was able to parry them them with ease it would be in the lower end of this thread's scale of "gritty".


And just out of curiosity, what kind of exalted character fails that many epic tasks in a row? I guess the game can be played that way, but from the rulesbook and the related thread one would think the game is suposed to be about the PCs overcoming all challenges by making descritions as awesome as possible for bonus points, so either you decided before hand the campaign was going to be " real gritty" or your ST is specialy hard to please. :smalltongue:

Ernir
2009-10-21, 04:47 AM
I want to play in a "Can't touch this" game.

You know, where I come crashing into the BBEG's lair holding a laser cannon in one hand and a pissed-off dragon in the other, proclaim myself as the saviour of the universe, and proceed to kick ass.

After I (or me and my 3-4 friends) have disintegrated his worthless legions of terror, that is.

Darkameoba
2009-10-21, 07:35 AM
Rain falls, everybody dies

then again i love playing in and running systems like Shadowrun 3rd edition and heavygear (not blitz, screw that noise). i mean to me if you know that joe blow cant hurt you with a pistol (or bow, or sword, or laser cannon, or whatever) because you have to many hit points to worry about it, it takes all the fun outa a game and basicaly gives you free license to run around doing whatever you want with no fear or death. But if you have to worry about getting blown away by a ganger with a pistol (or goblin with a spear) then it makes things alot more fun and exciting.

karnokoto
2009-10-21, 07:47 AM
Rain falls, everybody dies

then again i love playing in and running systems like Shadowrun 3rd edition and heavygear (not blitz, screw that noise). i mean to me if you know that joe blow cant hurt you with a pistol (or bow, or sword, or laser cannon, or whatever) because you have to many hit points to worry about it, it takes all the fun outa a game and basicaly gives you free license to run around doing whatever you want with no fear or death. But if you have to worry about getting blown away by a ganger with a pistol (or goblin with a spear) then it makes things alot more fun and exciting.

I agree 100%.
And I can vouch that Darkameoba is a ruthless GM, and excels at running this kind of game. But he makes it a lot of fun ;)

Indon
2009-10-21, 08:20 AM
And just out of curiosity, what kind of exalted character fails that many epic tasks in a row? I guess the game can be played that way, but from the rulesbook and the related thread one would think the game is suposed to be about the PCs overcoming all challenges by making descritions as awesome as possible for bonus points, so either you decided before hand the campaign was going to be " real gritty" or your ST is specialy hard to please. :smalltongue:

One in an epic tragedy, were the heroic Exalted struggle against the inexorable decay of the universe, fighting the stubbornness and foolishness of mortals and immortals alike all about them, each frustration taking them one more step along the path to madness which destroyed the First Age - and may yet destroy the Second.

Edit: Mind, this tragic motif is built into the vanilla setting (and very strongly, for the Lunars). It's a matter of storytelling and what challenges an Exalt group decide to tackle.

Oslecamo
2009-10-21, 09:11 AM
Ah, yes, I had forgoten the emo/psycho exalteds wich indeed come with the basic fluff!

Still, they're pretty hard to kill. If I remember correctly even an exalted untrained for combat has nothing to fear from your average mortal, isn't that right?

Lapak
2009-10-21, 09:19 AM
My favorite range would be "It Hurts". I think the game benefits when the players feel like they are really at risk, but it can be less fun when 'at risk' goes so far as to be 'anything could potentially one-shot you' because sooner or later something WILL.

(Incidentally, a better example of "Rain Falls" would be 1st level in 1e AD&D, where even a fighter can potentially start with 1 hit point, wizards are likely to, and 0 hit points = dead rather than disabled. THAT is a meat grinder.)

Geddoe
2009-10-21, 09:32 AM
Generally I can still move or tougher.


Not really sure Gantz is really all that "gritty" though, for ease of death purposes. Sure mortality rate is high among Gantzers and the monsters do a ton of damage to Gantzers if the attack happens, but that is mostly because it is like dropping level 1 D&D characters with a few neat gadgets against a Balor and saying "Beat it or I blow up your head". A typical firearm does nothing to a person wearing a Gantz suit, which tells you how tough the aliens really are. The police could surround a Gantzer in a suit, empty their guns in him, and he would still be able to kill them all with no real damage to himself(since the suit is a bit like bracers of armor, in that it is a shield of force around the whole body in addition to enhanced physical abilities).

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-21, 09:35 AM
And just out of curiosity, what kind of exalted character fails that many epic tasks in a row?

One without all the Second Excellencies?

Morty
2009-10-21, 10:00 AM
I think his original post said "competent" enemies. And that we're talking about direct combat, not using choke points or sniping from very afar or laying traps. Direct close combat.

Indeed. I meant a single character being attacked at once in close combat by a dozen of competent opponents - so no peasants with sticks, for example. If it can be survived, then the game isn't nearly gritty enough for my tastes.

Oslecamo
2009-10-21, 10:07 AM
The police could surround a Gantzer in a suit, empty their guns in him, and he would still be able to kill them all with no real damage to himself(since the suit is a bit like bracers of armor, in that it is a shield of force around the whole body in addition to enhanced physical abilities).

Actualy, the police almost managed to kill him. The suit shield ended up giving in and he was bleeding pretty badly, when he was teleported before the police could deliver the coup de grace:

Moment of glory:
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/gantz/289/10-11.png
[/url]

Totaly worth it!
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/gantz/289/13.png

However, the gantzer in question was one of the most veteran members of the team, so it's only fair he can take some. And one still has to take in consideration that the aliens are the basic enemies on the series, with the police not even deserving the title of redshirts, and the aliens attack in the quantity of small armies, with the gantzers geting killed left and right if they flinch for even a second, or are just unlucky and the alien of the week unleashes his secret power that punches right trough their shields.

"You die, no save allowed", is extremely common in Gantz when facing the stronger aliens, wich always end up apearing in each mission.

oxybe
2009-10-21, 10:15 AM
depends on the game.

i don't want my "action-hero" game PCs dropping like flies. that goes against the tropes that the genre embodies. if an action-hero can't even partially John McClane his way through a fight, i start wondering if we really are action-heroes.

then again, if i'm playing a 50pt GURPS game where the PCs are average joes, i don't again expect a rain falls everyone dies scenario, they should be able to take a punch or two, but one or two lucky hits or a well placed bullet should be able to do him in.

all depends on the game.

Geddoe
2009-10-21, 10:22 AM
snipped mostly
"You die, no save allowed", is extremely common in Gantz when facing the stronger aliens, wich always end up apearing in each mission.

Yeah, they eventually overwhelmed the suit, but they had assault rifles, rather than standard pistols, and were basically a SWAT team, not normal police officers.

The fact is, the Italian statue aliens, in numbers of course, would wreck just about anybody in, say, Berserk, which you listed as a tougher tier than Gantz..

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 10:27 AM
Yeah, they eventually overwhelmed the suit, but they had assault rifles, rather than standard pistols, and were basically a SWAT team, not normal police officers.

The fact is, the Italian statue aliens, in numbers of course, would wreck just about anybody in, say, Berserk, which you listed as a tougher tier than Gantz..

Eh, given the sheer horror of what the Main character in berserk lives through, (and the many things that various other characters fail to live through) I really don't think there's much chance of underestimating the grittyness of the work. Mere death-rate is no contest.

Oslecamo
2009-10-21, 10:33 AM
The fact is, the Italian statue aliens, in numbers of course, would wreck just about anybody in, say, Berserk, which you listed as a tougher tier than Gantz.


Not really. When Gats finds a group of better than average soldiers(aka medieval SWAT), with machine guns heavy crossbows he may just have to swing his sword a couple more times to win the day.

His sword doubles an indestructible tower shield that can parry any and all attacks on the series.

And considering that the Italian statues are probably as physicaly strong as your your mook apostles, but whitout the imba regeneration, then Gats would probably still win against them. Maybe geting a few wounds, but unquestionable victory whitout doubt.

He did manage to endure a lot of time in the midle of an apostle army, whitout his pimped gear(or any gear, he started the fight half naked and had to get the first sword he found), and having just exited another tough batle. That tells a lot about how tough the main character is.

When the main character of Gantz found himself alone against the aliens, he ended up sniping most of them while running away, then hiding on a corner crying.

The feather sword guy would just fly and kill with his wind cuts, the loli witch would pull out another crazy ritual, and the fire-knife guy would probably pull some crazy dodges, get a kill or two, and then either run away or be saved by one of the stronger characters.

Everybody else in the series are either mooks wich happen to have a name or characters whose power we don't know because they're always under the protection of someone else.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 10:46 AM
"Run away!"
"Hold the door! Hold the door!"
"Got it."
"Hey what's down this well? Whoops." <falls in, disappears>
"Oh great now what."
"They're breaking the door down! It won't hold!"
"..."
"Everybody into the well!"
---
DM: "You see two assasins"
PC: "We engage"
DM: "An assasin shoots you with a crossbow bolt, make a fortitude save vs. poison."
PC: <fails>
DM: "You drop."
PC: "I run here to start to escape, then pause to take a shot at one."
DM: "He's hurt. He takes a shot back, make a fortitude save."
PC: <fails>
DM: "You drop. Aww, I really thought you were gonna get away too, but you stopped."
(later)
DM: "You receive the heads of your fallen comrades in a bag."
PC: "I use my rod of ressurection on him." <hmm, our DM sure gave out a lot of these>
DM: "The moment you raise your arm your cleric instincts tell you to not even bother. Their souls are trapped. Roll up new characters you two."

Mmmm about 1 character death per session :smallbiggrin:.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-21, 10:49 AM
"It Hurts".

I try tokeep it at high level 3.5 too. And it works.

*maniacal laughter*

(even if I leave more shining moments to the PC when they grow stronger, they deserve it generally).

Jerthanis
2009-10-21, 03:55 PM
Ah, well, you're kinda of right there, but for the purpose of this discussion, "gritty" applies only to the PC's mortality level. Your oponents could have catapults of inocent plagued farmers and cover their walls and shields with puppies that as long as your character was able to parry them them with ease it would be in the lower end of this thread's scale of "gritty".


Fair, enough, but that's why I consider this an inaccurate scale. Paranoia seems very much like a Rain Falls game, yet it's almost entirely humorous. So would Human Occupied Landfill be if it were at all playable. Prometheans don't fall unconscious when their health bar is full of bashing damage, they don't fall down and bleed out, incapacitated when their bar is full of lethal, and they don't even die when their bar is filled with Aggravated until they're physically pulled apart... and if they're put back together after that, they can resurrect themselves. These creatures are almost impossible to kill, yet the game is about scrounging for moldy scraps in dumpsters, using hard drugs to escape your terrible life and observing a humanity that hates and fears you.

A lot of high mortality games are not gritty, some games keep you alive a long time because they are extremely gritty.




And just out of curiosity, what kind of exalted character fails that many epic tasks in a row? I guess the game can be played that way, but from the rulesbook and the related thread one would think the game is suposed to be about the PCs overcoming all challenges by making descritions as awesome as possible for bonus points, so either you decided before hand the campaign was going to be " real gritty" or your ST is specialy hard to please. :smalltongue:

Well, sometimes being able to cut a building in half just doesn't help.

It's not a hard to please ST, it's just the logical ramifications of the actions the characters take and the world around them. When you lead people to a desert oasis, build a stable community, then encourage it to grow without limit... bad things can happen.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 04:32 PM
Depends entirely on what's fitting. If we're playing high-epic level, then I fully expect reality shattering to be somewhat more likely than a one hit kill. If we're playing first level commoners, we're in rain falls territory.

And that's just in D&D 3.5.

The important bit is not the level itself, but that the level fit well with everything else, and that all players be on somewhat similar levels.

lesser_minion
2009-10-21, 05:03 PM
I'd probably say around It Hurts.

I usually assume that the ideal is for characters to be able to consistently survive life-threatening events, but I also expect it to be very clear that such an event is life threatening.

Basically, players should not want their characters to be hurt, but they shouldn't have much chance of being killed outright by one attack.

Basically anything that hits and does damage should be at least temporarily crippling.

Oslecamo
2009-10-21, 05:17 PM
It's not a hard to please ST, it's just the logical ramifications of the actions the characters take and the world around them. When you lead people to a desert oasis, build a stable community, then encourage it to grow without limit... bad things can happen.

Wait just a minute, isn't one of the basic rules of exalted that logic should be used to wipe the floor and the rule of cool trumps (almost) everything? The game where somebody in the world created heroine-pissing dinossaurs so they could get stoned more easily?

So if in any game it should be possible that you can create a out of control community on an oasis that doesn't destroy itself, it should be Exalted! I'm no pro at it, but I'm pretty sure there are charms that would've allowed you to punch bare rocks to create water for everybody and make crops grow in some other over-the top way to feed the hungry people, while carving houses for everybody with kicks.

Or enslave some other community to feed your own, but I guess that one isn't fiting for all character concepts.

Jerthanis
2009-10-22, 03:35 AM
Wait just a minute, isn't one of the basic rules of exalted that logic should be used to wipe the floor and the rule of cool trumps (almost) everything? The game where somebody in the world created heroine-pissing dinossaurs so they could get stoned more easily?

So if in any game it should be possible that you can create a out of control community on an oasis that doesn't destroy itself, it should be Exalted! I'm no pro at it, but I'm pretty sure there are charms that would've allowed you to punch bare rocks to create water for everybody and make crops grow in some other over-the top way to feed the hungry people, while carving houses for everybody with kicks.


Well, when you have magic that makes logic wipe the floor, it does so.

But if your primary powers are parrying skyscrapers, throwing mountains, building airships and 30 foot walking robot armor and curing leprosy with a touch, it doesn't mean you can automatically also conjure water from nothingness or convince another city-state to let its own people go hungry so yours can survive.

It's not raw make-believe, where the Storyteller says, "A drought encroaches on your nation" and the players respond by saying, "I karate-chop the drought while in midair, then I do a double backflip" and the storyteller says, "The drought explodes into a cloud of flower petals, your people cheer your awesomeness." It has rules that cause players to fail when they take actions their characters aren't good at, and you can't be good at everything, even with a Perfect Circle.

A lot of people characterize it as "You win at everything forever", but it's more like, "You are a titan, capable of changing the world, but you've already failed once, what will you do this time to redeem yourself? WILL you redeem yourself?" It's a combination of personal tragedy and cosmic responsibility. It's a game where sometimes you punch Cthulu in the face and are a hero and sometimes you punch your wife in the face and are a monster, and how these can be the same person.

That said, Rule of Cool does in some ways apply to the setting. There are canonical limitations to certain things that they're careful to say, "Hey, if you think it's cool, forget these limitations", and like... if a PC wants to swing on a rope and the ST never said there was a rope, the PC is expected to be allowed to edit one into the scene.

Sorry, what I'm trying to say is that a game's grittiness comes from the setting, I think, more than from the survival rate of individual characters who have PC hats within that setting. If PCs die by the truckload, but they're essentially fighting kobolds in caves for the benefit of the peaceful, prosperous farming community and their loving, benevolent lord... it's a lot less gritty than if the PCs never die, but are killing kobolds for the Lord who pays the party by leaning extra hard on the farmers during hard times, and sends his knights to rough up anyone who objects... and if the PCs cry out against the injustice, a peasant revolt forms around them... and almost all of these peasants die against the better trained, better equipped knights. At least, I think the second one is more gritty... it's been years since I've played in games where I really was afraid I'd irrevocably lose a character based on a random die roll.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-22, 04:01 AM
It's a game where sometimes you punch Cthulu in the face and are a hero and sometimes you punch your wife in the face and are a monster, and how these can be the same person.

Except when you're Desus, then they just think you're awesome for your devotion to your wife.

Aux-Ash
2009-10-22, 07:28 AM
I suppose my favourite system is very much a Rain falls, everybody dies when it comes to lethality. A single failed roll when blocking, parrying or dodging can certainly mean death. Catching a disease or having a wound become infected is also likely to end the career of that character.
When the character do survive the recovery usually long and slow, even with magic.

Then again, combat does also often end with the players having suffered no worse injury than a few scratches and cuts. Not because they are better than the npc but simply because they planned ahead, used very lethal weapons (like a crossbow on point blank range) and/or were lucky.

boomwolf
2009-10-22, 07:44 AM
I...Can...Still...Move... and slightly below is for my liking.

Being able to fight off things without checking you HP every nanosecond against weaklings, yet dumbness still takes it's toll.

Altough in games I run I tend to have the grittyness change from It hurts! to It's only a flesh wound!, some areas being extra gritty, and some are rather safe.

Confuses my players a bit, makes them more interested as they don't know how risky things are going to get.

And from time to time they run into a Rain falls, everybody dies situation. the correct solution here is "run away, you are too weak to face him right now."

Sling
2009-10-22, 10:35 AM
I, personally, prefer "I...Can...Still...Move...". Part of that's because the games I tend to find myself in are heavy on roleplaying and character development, which is kind of hard to do when your character has a two encounter life expectancy. Still, if the enemies we fight are too easy, any drama the scene might have is lost.