Skill Synergy Stacking?

[Tyger]

The SRD doesn't type the bonus that skill synergy gives, and I am away from my books at the moment. Can anyone verify where the bonus type for synergy is listed, or if it is untyped?

[ex cathedra]

I'm fairly sure that all of the synergy bonuses are entirely untyped, yes. This is one of the many reasons that diplomacy is so easily boosted to absurd levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

They are unofficially known as "synergy bonuses", which is really just a short way of saying "an untyped bonus granted by the phenomenon of skill synergy." This can and has lead to some confusion.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Key word "unofficial". 3.0 had them explicitly as synergy bonuses, but 3.5 is less clear. They might be the same unnamed bonus, in which case it only applies once. They might be several unnamed bonuses, in which case they stack. Stacking is the common wisdom, but my reading of it is that fulfilling one of those various requirements will allow you to claim the single +2 bonus (since it's in one sentence).

YMMV, ask your DM, rule whatever you feel more balanced as a DM.

[Mando Knight]

Stacking is the common wisdom, but my reading of it is that fulfilling one of those various requirements will allow you to claim the single +2 bonus (since it's in one sentence).

One reason to do this is because if you're not playing by the Giant's Rules for Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html), a level 2 bard could easily have a +6 bonus to Diplomacy before calculating in the ranks in the skill or his Charisma modifier. A level 2, 16 Cha bard with full Diplomacy and Diplomacy-synergy ranks will have a +14 Diplomacy modifier. Thus, without the Giant's houserule, a Bard can easily make every foe at least apathetic to his existence.

[Rhiannon87]

One reason to do this is because if you're not playing by the Giant's Rules for Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html), a level 2 bard could easily have a +6 bonus to Diplomacy before calculating in the ranks in the skill or his Charisma modifier. A level 2, 16 Cha bard with full Diplomacy and Diplomacy-synergy ranks will have a +14 Diplomacy modifier. Thus, without the Giant's houserule, a Bard can easily make every foe at least apathetic to his existence.

Yeah, we had a Sorceress/Fatespinner in our group who had a +14 to diplomacy without putting a single rank into the skill. I don't remember all the details of how she accomplished that, but I know she did without much optimizing. It was just sort of added benefits to other things/abilities/synergies/etc that she had.

[Curmudgeon]

Key word "unofficial". 3.0 had them explicitly as synergy bonuses, but 3.5 is less clear.
There's nothing "unofficial". Synergy was a named bonus type in 3.0 rules. There is no such thing in 3.5 rules.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).
Skill Synergy

It’s possible for a character to have two skills that work well together, such as someone with both Jump and Tumble. In general, having 5 or more ranks in one skill gives the character a +2 bonus on skill checks with each of its synergistic skills, as noted in the skill description and on Table 4–5: Skill Synergies. No type is specified for skill synergies in the rules, and thus under the basic stacking rule they add together without any problems.

That's official. Even the FAQ author agrees. :smallwink:
The bonuses listed in the synergy section of a skill description are unnamed and so they stack. (There’s no such thing as a synergy bonus in the current edition of the D&D game.)

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, we had a Sorceress/Fatespinner in our group who had a +14 to diplomacy without putting a single rank into the skill. I don't remember all the details of how she accomplished that, but I know she did without much optimizing. It was just sort of added benefits to other things/abilities/synergies/etc that she had.

I could see that. Charisma alone will get you quite a ways, given it's a decently leveled sorc. Getting 5 ranks in a skill isn't that hard, so you're pretty much bound to stumble across some skill synergies without even trying.

Now, when players try to break it, it quickly gets quite ridiculous. I've seen players with +30 or higher at low-mid levels without sacrificing a lot to do it. At that rate, going by the official rules, you tend to be successful at even relatively crazy suggestions routinely.

It's a bit of sticky situation, and changing them back from untyped to synergy would probably help.

[Gametime]

There's nothing "unofficial". Synergy was a named bonus type in 3.0 rules. There is no such thing in 3.5 rules. No type is specified for skill synergies in the rules, and thus under the basic stacking rule they add together without any problems.

That's official. Even the FAQ author agrees. :smallwink:

Unless they "come from the same source." That's the basis of the uncertainty - is "skill synergy" one big source, in which case multiples applying to a single skill wouldn't stack, or is EACH skill synergy a separate source, in which case they do?

Personally, I allow stacking of synergy bonuses and just fix things like Diplomacy. You don't need synergy to be a completely absurd Diplomancer with the written table, it just helps a bunch at low levels.

[desmond1323]

I know this problem drove one of my DMs crazy when my Cloistered Cleric 4/Divine Bard 4 had something like a +25 to Diplomacy after ranks, Cha, and synergies. She actually made me show her where every single point came from, as using it made me nearly impossible to defeat in Diplomacy and I was getting information I should not have gotten because of it, heh.

But finally, we agreed that synergies do stack since...as Gametime mentioned...they came from "separate sources". Sort of like each source reinforcing each other...more 'pieces of the puzzle', you could say.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah...you get each one individually, for a different skill reason, so they would tend to be different sources. Any other reasoning as to what constitutes a source applied to this would cause very interesting results elsewhere in the game system.

[Curmudgeon]

Unless they "come from the same source." That's the basis of the uncertainty - is "skill synergy" one big source, in which case multiples applying to a single skill wouldn't stack, or is EACH skill synergy a separate source, in which case they do?
Historically that wouldn't make sense. In 3.0 rules skill synergy was a bonus type. While 3.5 made synergy no longer a listed bonus type, it wouldn't suddenly jump from the type category to the source category; it stayed in the type category and just became unnamed.

It doesn't make logical sense, either. You can't buy a synergy bonus; it's not a source (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/source) by the definition of that term. The source is always some (number of ranks in a) particular skill; the synergy bonus is a derived product of that skill.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise checks made when you know you’re being observed and you try to act in character. The FAQ concurs.

The text for synergy under the Diplomacy skill on page 72 of the PH states: “If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.” I’m assuming that means if a character has 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and royalty), and Sense Motive that the character would receive only a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy checks. Or would the character receive a +6 synergy bonus (+2 for each)?
The bonuses listed in the synergy section of a skill description are unnamed and so they stack. (There’s no such thing as a synergy bonus in the current edition of the D&D game.) The character in your example would receive a +6
bonus on Diplomacy checks.

[taltamir]

Key word "unofficial". 3.0 had them explicitly as synergy bonuses, but 3.5 is less clear. They might be the same unnamed bonus, in which case it only applies once. They might be several unnamed bonuses, in which case they stack. Stacking is the common wisdom, but my reading of it is that fulfilling one of those various requirements will allow you to claim the single +2 bonus (since it's in one sentence).

YMMV, ask your DM, rule whatever you feel more balanced as a DM.

more than once according to epic book... (one of the few not terrible rulings they have).
+2 at 5 ranks. an additional +2 at every 20 ranks beyond that. (so, 25, 45, 65, etc)

[ericgrau]

My own preference for dealing with diplomancy: there aren't enough dice in the world (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0043.html)