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DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 03:46 PM
We are getting ready to play a historically accurate game in which things have been slightly altered but nothing major has changed. But the DM puts down a timeline and in it the history is wrong in only one area and the grammar is bad. A few players notice, no one does anything, except you.

You go and correct his grammar and the one historical inaccuracy, as you study history and just changing it would change nothing but how accurate it was and then put in your hypothetical suggestions to the changes that do not work in the history. Like things that just do not make sense and either need to be explained or changed. Your DM now freaks and cancels the game because you just suggested a few changes and you opinion.

What do you do? Cause the other players are not happy, and your just as pissed off. Plus your DM freaked over stuff that you think should be changed, but he is god and before he decided to cancel you told him that none of it needed changing because he was god, but he instead takes it completely off the deep end and canceled because he can not take constructive criticism.

I need a word to describe this now...

Aron Times
2009-10-20, 03:48 PM
Wall of text. You need to break it up into readable paragraphs.

Anyway, just tell him that you want to play anyway.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 03:48 PM
yeah sorry bout the wall, my rant. probably wrong place for it too.

Zephyros
2009-10-20, 03:50 PM
Since you yourself said that it is a not overly accurate (in the history department) game and he is the DM, I say you are a bit off here.

Now for the grammar correcting its a bit of nitpicking, but not so much of a reason to freak out about it.

Just talk it over.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 03:55 PM
Fixed wall of text.

Grammar correction is something that had to be done, it was a point of confusion that destroyed the ideas.

jiriku
2009-10-20, 04:01 PM
Ask him why he's upset. Listen attentively without interrupting. Empathize with his position, even if you don't agree with it. Refrain at this point from mentioning any disagreements you might have. Apologize for upsetting him. Refrain at this point for justifying anything you did. Ask how he thinks the two of you could fix the situation, or propose a fix which you think would be acceptable to him.

This is LEAF model, for Listen, Empathize, Apologize, Fix, used in customer service for dealing with irate customers. It is also useful in your personal life for smoothing over upset feelings, arguments, and the like.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-20, 04:01 PM
If grammar is causing a problem for you or the players, asking for it to be cleared up isn't a big deal.

Telling a DM his timeline is wrong probably frustrates him immensely. The best way to approach would have been to maybe say later or in private "Hey, I just noticed something...would it affect anything to correct it? If so, we should totally just leave it as is, but I just thought you might like to know."

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 04:03 PM
Talk to him about it. Let him know you still want to play.

Although, him getting upset and cancelling just because you pointed out some gramatical and chronological errors is kinda... immature. :smallconfused: Does he have maturity issues, problems with criticism, or an anger problem?

My first DM didn't like criticism. In fact, I knew more about DnD than he did, thanks to reading OotS before the game. So when I asked questions or pointed things out that he didn't know about or hadn't thought of, he kinda got annoyed with me. He also punished me for thinking outside the box. :smallannoyed:

After my player got nuked for accidentally lighting a room full of mushrooms on fire in an attempt to kill an angel sent by the DM to punish us for being bad players (yes, yes that is how badly he responded to me thinking outside the box), me and the other players had a short discussion via notes. We then informed the DM that we were performing a Coup, and I'd been elected as the group's new DM by a 3:1 vote. :smallcool:


The point of my random tale is this: Talking to the DM is the best option. But if the DM is unreasonable, immature, or otherwise impossible to deal with, you might have better luck trying your own hand at DMing. :smallbiggrin:

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 04:13 PM
Yeah, it is most likely immaturity. That and the fact that as a gamer and DM he play's with all the secrets he can get, letting nothing go. He commonly associates with a player (Joe) who is exactly like him and when one person points out anything wrong he openly points out that we are acting like Joe.

It bugs use, but he spins quiet a story and has some good ideas, while in interest of keeping things interesting we change DMs every so often and every one of us get criticism, I myself get the most, as I am not the most competent DM and lack some of the story skills the others have, but when any one criticizes this particular person he freaks, and of the people to run a game he is one of the best.

Apologizing was first thing to be done and trying to remedy in his favor was also tried but he is pretty peeved off and it is not a happy thing for the players. To a point of not having him return as a player or DM.

Lycan 01
2009-10-20, 04:26 PM
So ya'll have apologized, and told him ya'll still want to play, and he's still angry with ya'll and refusing to DM? Sheesh, that's not very nice...

Give him a few days to cool off, and then talk to him again. He should chill out a bit, and be more reasonable...



(In regards to DMing, practice makes perfect. :smallwink: No one is an expert DM off the bat, and if you really try at it, you could get to be pretty good at running games over time)

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 04:28 PM
Oh I attempt when it is my turn, though my games are short lived. I usually just fill in between others games for a couple of sessions with repeating characters.

Severus
2009-10-20, 04:31 PM
Nit picking grammar is tacky.

If you wanted to point out that history was X did he really mean to say Z, then that would be fine, I think. But as a GM if I got a marked up copy of my game intro with grammar corrections and a pointer that one of these things was inaccurate, I might think "Wow, the game hasn't started and I'm already being nit-picked to death. Screw this."

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 04:38 PM
I am sorry but if the genius can't use spell check to correct his own work and thus his work is not worth reading, as everyone else more or less decided, then why not try to help him. It isn't like a 10 page history is a good thing if you can't read what the history is about without having to stop for all the mistakes and figure out what kind of english is being spoken...

Kylarra
2009-10-20, 04:47 PM
Given the attitude you're presenting in this thread, I wonder if the way you presented your findings to the DM aggravated an already touch and go situation. It's understandable that you have a personal stake in correcting the error as that's your area of expertise, but presentation is important too.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 05:08 PM
Yeah sitting down, one on one and talking it out didn't work out well. He proceeded to text us that he was canceling... not a happy day

Raum
2009-10-20, 06:14 PM
Have you considered it from his point of view? You basically told him that something he'd probably spent many hours working on was lacking...or worse depending on the terminology used. Assuming he was stressed already that may well be enough to turn a game into a chore...

Shrug. Not saying he didn't over react. Just remember you 'kicked his puppy' so to speak. Might be worth taking some time to mention the good points of his material next time you talk to him. Even if you aren't able to fix it for this game.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-20, 06:27 PM
You should always get permission before editing someone else's work. If you just drop a corrected copy on them out of nowhere, it's a lot less likely to go over well.

infinitypanda
2009-10-20, 06:38 PM
Cause the other players are not happy, and your just as pissed off. Plus your DM freaked over stuff that you think should be changed, but he is god and before he decided to cancel you told him that none of it needed changing because he was god, but he instead takes it completely off the deep end and canceled because he can not take constructive criticism. The second sentence is awkward and needs to be recast. In addition, wrong form of "you're."


Grammar correction is something that had to be done, it was a point of confusion that destroyed the ideas. That comma would work better as a semicolon.


That and the fact that as a gamer and DM he play's with all the secrets he can get... I'm sure you meant "plays," since you are not supposed to use a possessive there.


It bugs use, but he spins quiet a story and has some good ideas... I'll just assume that instead of "use" you meant "us," okay?

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 06:46 PM
That just proves my inability to type something up on quickly also. Which is how this game more or less would have looked with him running it. So as a group without him we are moving on, next game. If he comes back he'll probably do it again and I won't stop him, and nobody is going to complain, but at this rate he has cut ties with our 5 players pretty decently, going to lengths to attempt to berate us in anyway he can, it'll be a bumpy road to enjoy gaming with him ever again

infinitypanda
2009-10-20, 06:51 PM
Sigh. It took me a long time to put together that critique, and for you to just sit there and blast it, rather than enjoy it...

It makes me sad.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 07:00 PM
Oh no I liked it, it proves I am not perfect either and that I probably made mistakes in dealing with the situation myself, though the fact that I got such an immature response from a 30 something year old in the face of criticism that was aimed at helping him really got me.

Magnor Criol
2009-10-20, 07:08 PM
Sigh. It took me a long time to put together that critique, and for you to just sit there and blast it, rather than enjoy it...

It makes me sad.

I see what you did thar.


Oh no I liked it, it proves I am not perfect either and that I probably made mistakes in dealing with the situation myself, though the fact that I got such an immature response from a 30 something year old in the face of criticism that was aimed at helping him really got me.

I see your point - canceling a game in response to some comments is a bit immature. But at the same time, think about his side - how long did he work on this campaign? What did you first say - did you give him some positive responses first, or did you basically come swinging with the critiques?

I'm sure that it wasn't that immediate, but still, if he feels like he worked long and hard on a setting and the first thing that came to your mind was "hey, here's some errors" then he might feel unappreciated. It's still an immature response, but working to understand his side will help fix this. The only way to smooth ruffled feathers is for him to understand you're trying to smooth the feathers.

Jerthanis
2009-10-20, 07:13 PM
I once had an Aberrant game canceled over whether Automatic Damage levels were too powerful under the GM's interpretation or not. Years later we found out the players were right anyway.

Sometimes, things just appear one way to the GM and another way to the players. It's the GM doing most of the work, so the players should tend to look to clarify rather than correct the GM's ridiculously silly mistakes.

GMs can be really petty, but since they're the ones stepping forward to do it, they should get a little slack. If I were you, I'd apologize, claim you were just trying to help because you were excited about the game.

If you don't care that much about the game, or the modifications were so glaring and lame that you weren't going to be able to enjoy the game, then celebrate him canceling it.

Nai_Calus
2009-10-20, 07:28 PM
Yeesh, if I'd worked long and hard on something for a campaign, you can bet there's nothing I would appreciate more than one of the players coming to me and being blunt and saying 'Hey DM, this on page foo is completely borked, here's how it should be'. At which point I would look at it, probably find that he was right, and go 'Well crap you're right it totally is, how the hell did I miss that, thanks' and get to work on fixing it.

Your DM is waaaay too touchy.

Thajocoth
2009-10-20, 07:50 PM
That reminds me of the time my booksmart inexperienced Wizard corrected the BBEG's word tense during his speech. I forget what exactly he was correcting, but my guy said "You mean 'the rest of our undeaths.' ") He was making saving throws the very next round and spent a few rounds unconscious in a pool of sacrificial blood in the middle of the battle.

That was awesome.

As for your question though... Just make up a new word and give it the definition you seek. Get enough people to use it and it'll even wind up in dictionaries!

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 08:08 PM
Well all of us were extremely excited about the game, and most of all we each had put at least as much time into hashing out a party to play also, 6 level 0 characters, peasants and no more ready to go, all intertwined but not knowing they would become adventuring friends, and got not a word of help from our to be DM.

In the end, with how it turned out, all of us feel a bit gipped. At least I do, I freaking worked hard enough on my own character and then worked details with others... feels like a waste, at least we never got started. So we instead took our characters and someone else will run a game with them, using his work, modified with all corrections made, and enjoy ourselves. :smallsmile:

Edit: I don't need a word, I am calling it 'Simple'

valadil
2009-10-20, 09:21 PM
Don't worry about it too much. It sounds like anything could have set off that GM. You just happened to do it first.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say the problem is that the GM put a ton of work into researching his timeline. Even though you were nice about suggesting the change, it made light of the GM's work because he got something wrong. This can be really frustrating and I can see why he'd want to give up.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 09:55 PM
Nit picking grammar is tacky.

If you wanted to point out that history was X did he really mean to say Z, then that would be fine, I think. But as a GM if I got a marked up copy of my game intro with grammar corrections and a pointer that one of these things was inaccurate, I might think "Wow, the game hasn't started and I'm already being nit-picked to death. Screw this."

Bah, one of my fellow player routinely corrects grammar while at the gaming table, no matter how trivial. Then again, he plays a monk, so I guess he needs something to do.

I don't get fussed over grammar or spelling unless it's truly, horribly, unreadably bad. That said...if he took it that hard, it would have likely happened eventually anyway. Some people just suck, try to find a new DM and just move on from there. If you really can't find another DM, try round robin DMing.

Solaris
2009-10-20, 10:32 PM
The second sentence is awkward and needs to be recast. In addition, wrong form of "you're."

That comma would work better as a semicolon.

I'm sure you meant "plays," since you are not supposed to use a possessive there.

I'll just assume that instead of "use" you meant "us," okay?

Heheheheh.


If you really can't find another DM, try round robin DMing.

I think that's what they do, he's just upset that the group's good storytelling DM got whiny, took his ball and went home because he pointed out an inaccuracy with the history and fixed some grammar. The history, I'd appreciate. The grammar, not so much... but then, it'd take a lot more for me to stomp out of running a game than just someone nitpicking my pre-game intro.
Has there been some sort of a build-up to this?

DareTheRogue
2009-10-20, 10:43 PM
No there really is not much building to this, cept the fact that he thinks all the players getting together for our characters is some plot against him.

We do round robin, I have participated but I do not anymore less I have to and I'll only fill in.

Yeah but it was just simple stuff, here see this wording, it doesn't work and no one can make sense of it, maybe if you worded it this way. or did you mean were, cause that was does not fit. Or even better this country did not exist but you put it in, it disappeared a long time ago, almost a 100 years before hand. The last one I even asked first, is this country suppose to be here and if it was not would it affect things, no, ok well...

But yeah we are switching it up, deciding on who to runt he game, as the attempt at lynching me to the group cause I got nit-picky didn't work out for him. They all respect the fact that I tried to make sense of the game for all of us.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 10:56 PM
At the risk of being overly cynical and unsympathetic, the more you post, the funnier you correcting his spelling and grammar is.

Eh, try to let him know it's no big deal, and just move on to the next person in the cycle. When round robin DMing, you should always try to have your stuff prepared a session or more ahead of time when possible, since it's not unusual that something will interfere with scheduling, but plot can make doing that difficult at times.

At a minimum, keep a handful of statted out characters around for a fun encounter or three. I find it's much easier to improvise when I've got something to build around.

root9125
2009-10-21, 09:32 AM
At the risk of being overly cynical and unsympathetic, the more you post, the funnier you correcting his spelling and grammar is.


It's not just you who's cynical and unsympathetic.

But it tells us something interesting. If *he* corrected the DM's grammar, it must have been abysmal, nigh incomprehensible. :smallbiggrin:

oxinabox
2009-10-21, 10:36 AM
Heh, I was conisdering running a game set in the ancient greak period, but decided no too, when i rememebered that one of the players had almost completed his Masters* in greak history...


* (In australian that's one step bellow PhD, don't know about overseas)

So I decided not to to save him the effort of correcting me...
though he an experianced and *decent* player, so proably wouldn't

huttj509
2009-10-21, 11:15 AM
Heh, I was conisdering running a game set in the ancient greak period, but decided no too, when i rememebered that one of the players had almost completed his Masters* in greak history...


* (In australian that's one step bellow PhD, don't know about overseas)

So I decided not to to save him the effort of correcting me...
though he an experianced and *decent* player, so proably wouldn't


Masters is the first level of graduate education (with Ph.D. being the second) in the USA as well. Just to clarify, the first few years of College is generally referred to as "undergraduate", as you work towards a Bachelors degree, generally (unless it's a particularly focused specialty degree, but all I can think of for the first level is Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Sciences). I'm about 80% sure the names and levels are the same in the UK, but I don't know about the rest of Europe, or East Asia, if things are different. I think it's fairly standardized around the world, so that education levels can be easily described for things like job applications.

Thajocoth
2009-10-21, 12:06 PM
Heh, I was conisdering running a game set in the ancient greak period, but decided no too, when i rememebered that one of the players had almost completed his Masters* in greak history...


* (In australian that's one step bellow PhD, don't know about overseas)

So I decided not to to save him the effort of correcting me...
though he an experianced and *decent* player, so proably wouldn't

College/university in the USA:

Undergraduate:
2 years - Associates Degree
4 years - Bachelor's Degree

Graduate:
6 years - Master's Degree
8 years - PhD

Dunno about outside the US. Most people skip Associates Degrees and often PhD students skip Master's Degree. One needs a Bachelor's Degree specifically to apply for any Graduate level program. Occasionally there are exceptions... Like the university I went to had a "5 year Master's Degree" program that, if someone had a high enough GPA to get into, enough of their classes would count towards both their Bachelor's and their Master's that they could get their Master's only a year after their Bachelor's instead of two. (Involved taking a few Graduate level courses as an Undergraduate.)

No clue how it works elsewhere.

Glass Mouse
2009-10-21, 01:38 PM
At the risk of being overly cynical and unsympathetic, the more you post, the funnier you correcting his spelling and grammar is.

Me, too. Sorry, DareTheRogue, but your last post actually had me snickering.
Especially since I tend to be extremely grammar-nitpicking myself (in my native tongue, though, I'm not that strong in English grammar), and I've quickly learned to be very cautious with my own grammar - if you slip up, you will get lynched :smallbiggrin:


On the touchy GM...
Just for clarification: Reacting negatively to critisism isn't immature, it's human. Storming out, though, is either a sign of deeper conflict or pretty damn childish.
However, as someone else has said, there are very hostile ways to present critisism, and there are very diplomatic ways.
Rule of thumb is, never say "you". Say "I".
"I'm not sure I understand this correctly" instead of "you've made a mistake here".
Or "I'm sorry, but incorrect punctuation disturbs my eyes, is it okay if I correct?".
More subtle: "Is it just me, or do I see a mistake here?"
If you put the load (read: blame) on him, he's gonna be defensive.
If you take the load (read: perspective) on yourself in however way, it's much easier to take.

Yeah, others have kinda said it already - I just feel it's an important point.

Good luck with the "new" group :smallsmile:

Fluffles
2009-10-21, 01:41 PM
Regarding the DM, tell him to stop or you'll charge his with sexual harassment :smallbiggrin:

PinkysBrain
2009-10-21, 01:50 PM
I need a word to describe this now...
Failed sense motive check.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-21, 01:52 PM
Grammar correction is something that had to be done, it was a point of confusion that destroyed the ideas.

I enjoy that everyone is flapping their grammar and education e-genitalia around while the above sentence was said on like the third post.

Bad grammar led to a misunderstanding. You are allowed to correct that. It's not really rude. Unless he pointed and laughed and called him stupid.

That is rude.

Regardless, your DM is silly. Buy him an ice cream cake. Nobody has ever been mad after I bought them an ice cream cake.

Except for the lactose intolerant guy, but he didn't tell me. How was I supposed to know? More cake for me.

Superglucose
2009-10-21, 02:05 PM
I have a GM who keeps coming up with rules, claiming that they're "realistic" and that he's "studied them." At first I thought he really was trying to make realistic rules, so I wanted to help him out ("HIV actually doesn't kill you, so instead of con drain maybe you should make it a cumulative fort save penalty vs diseases"), and he responded by being insultingly ignorant ("What are you talking about? HIV attacks bone marrow and will eventually kill off your red blood cells!") and refusing to take my suggestions seriously.

I just gave up entirely, and now his homebrew includes processors with identical machine code no matter which company/planet/species built them, HIV which has the effects of leukemia, and wifi networks with more bandwidth than any wired network.

The Random NPC
2009-10-21, 02:09 PM
I once had a DM that refused to tell you what his house rules were until you broke them. It made making a character really hard.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-21, 02:27 PM
I have a GM who keeps coming up with rules, claiming that they're "realistic" and that he's "studied them." At first I thought he really was trying to make realistic rules, so I wanted to help him out ("HIV actually doesn't kill you, so instead of con drain maybe you should make it a cumulative fort save penalty vs diseases"), and he responded by being insultingly ignorant ("What are you talking about? HIV attacks bone marrow and will eventually kill off your red blood cells!") and refusing to take my suggestions seriously.

I just gave up entirely, and now his homebrew includes processors with identical machine code no matter which company/planet/species built them, HIV which has the effects of leukemia, and wifi networks with more bandwidth than any wired network.


...what...what are you playing that requires rules for HIV?

Player: "I cast AIDS on the Tarrasque."
DM: "...Well, we all know who the real monster here is."

pres_man
2009-10-21, 02:36 PM
...what...what are you playing that requires rules for HIV?

Player: "I cast AIDS on the Tarrasque."
DM: "...Well, we all know who the real monster here is."

Is that done with a grapple or back-stab?

Zincorium
2009-10-21, 04:38 PM
I once had a DM that refused to tell you what his house rules were until you broke them. It made making a character really hard.

I've had a DM like that too. The reasoning went something like 'you would take advantage of the new rules if you knew what they were'. All it ends up doing is confusing the players and slowing down the game.

Note that this is different than making rulings on things during the game- what I'm talking about is premeditated changes that the players are denied knowledge of. When said things include skill uses and character abilities... yeah.

Fiery Diamond
2009-10-21, 06:22 PM
I've had a DM like that too. The reasoning went something like 'you would take advantage of the new rules if you knew what they were'. All it ends up doing is confusing the players and slowing down the game.

Note that this is different than making rulings on things during the game- what I'm talking about is premeditated changes that the players are denied knowledge of. When said things include skill uses and character abilities... yeah.

Wow. I'm surprised anyone ever allows that person to DM. That's seriously messed up. I would never dream of doing that to my players as a DM, and I certainly wouldn't play with a DM like that.

Sliver
2009-10-22, 12:22 AM
Wow. I'm surprised anyone ever allows that person to DM. That's seriously messed up. I would never dream of doing that to my players as a DM, and I certainly wouldn't play with a DM like that.

But it sure makes me want to try to DM that way next time..

DM: "You open the door and see a room"
PC: "Okay.. I go inside then"
DM: "The huge dragon slams you into the wall"
PC: "What? A dragon? I would have seen a dragon!"
DM "you would take advantage of this knowledge if you knew there was a dragon there"

krossbow
2009-10-22, 01:14 AM
Ask him why he's upset. Listen attentively without interrupting. Empathize with his position, even if you don't agree with it. Refrain at this point from mentioning any disagreements you might have. Apologize for upsetting him. Refrain at this point for justifying anything you did. Ask how he thinks the two of you could fix the situation, or propose a fix which you think would be acceptable to him.

This is LEAF model, for Listen, Empathize, Apologize, Fix, used in customer service for dealing with irate customers. It is also useful in your personal life for smoothing over upset feelings, arguments, and the like.


Leaf is more or less designed to be a customer's b*&^ however. The intent with irate customers is to get them to calm down, no matter how wrong they may be, and get them back in the store spending money.
A short term loss, such as taking back damaged goods or wasting time is a small price for getting increased sales down the line for the COMPANY (though most sales associates using leaf often report depression or reduced feelings of self worth, as well as stress and anger).


When used in personal life it may smooth over situations temporarily, but it ends up usually turning you into the persons doormat as asserting yourself breaks LEAF intent. I would not reccomend this personally for this situation.