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Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:26 PM
Okay so I have just planned the next quest in my campaign buy I hit a snag:

Two NPCS both members of this organization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125630), the players may side with either or kill them both in a Roaring Rampage of Revenge.

The hook: A angel in disguise as a nobel that helped the player stop a demon cult early in the campaign was killed, the attacker? A group of "Planeguardians" killed him during a ceremony, A source tells them of the organization, but that it also is in the middle of a huge debate, the aforementioned NPCs are at the center of this debate, but I don't know the alignments of either one:

NPC 1: The leader of the Culprits, not the leader of the organization, but the second-in-command who kills first, checks the body later. He hates any and all outsiders, after he discovered the noble's secret he quickly organized a group of like-minded members and openly attacked the noble, not only proudly announcing his membership in this HIGHLY SECRET organization but also openly killing him in front of a large crowd.


NPC 2: The leader of the organization, he prefers to politely and secretly orders the good outsiders to leave the plane, and kills the evil ones, he tries his best to make any and all killings secret, but this latest incident has catapulted the group into the public eye, and a large bounty has been posted on the heads of any members of the organizations, he was in the middle of convincing the noble to return to Celestia but NPC 1 decided to take matters into his own hands. He has condemned the killing but this has only inflamed the debate between members of the group and a schism could soon follow.

I am not sure what their alignments are, so I have come for advice.

Kish
2009-10-20, 05:30 PM
NPC 1 is Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil.

NPC 2 is...harder to pin down (why's he a member of the organization at all, much less its leader?) but certainly not Good.

ravenkith
2009-10-20, 05:30 PM
Npc1: Chaotic Evil

Npc 2: Lawful Neutral

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:32 PM
NPC 1 is Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil.

NPC 2 is...harder to pin down (why's he a member of the organization at all, much less its leader?) but certainly not Good.


Well anyone can be a member if they have a level in the prestige class, the goal is "Protecting the material Plane" which he certainly does, at least in the eyes of SOME members, the others consider him weak and too merciful on the good outsiders.

waterpenguin43
2009-10-20, 05:33 PM
NPC 1: Chaotic or Neutral Evil
NPC 2: Lawful Neutral

Kish
2009-10-20, 05:34 PM
Well anyone can be a member if they have a level in the prestige class, the goal is "Protecting the material Plane" which he certainly does, at least in the eyes of SOME members, the others consider him weak and too merciful on the good outsiders.
Yes, I got all of that. The point is, um...

A group which is based around the assumption that all outsiders, regardless of alignment, are legitimate targets is an evil group. A prestige class based around that philosophy is exactly the same, morally speaking, as the group would be without the prestige class (that is, it's evil).

lsfreak
2009-10-20, 05:37 PM
NPC1: Chaotic Evil bordering on Chaotic Stupid/Stupid Evil.
NPC2: Lawful Neutral with Neutral Good leanings. The NG leanings are a bit iffy, but from the info you gave that's what it seems like to me.

EDIT: There's a *huge* difference between "all outsiders are fair targets" and "we'd prefer outsiders don't interfere, so we try and convince the good ones to leave and kill off the evil ones."

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:37 PM
Yes, I got all of that. The point is, um...

A group which is based around the assumption that all outsiders, regardless of alignment, are legitimate targets is an evil group. A prestige class based around that philosophy is exactly the same, morally speaking, as the group would be without the prestige class (that is, it's evil).


He DOES attempt to ask the good outsiders to leave instead of killing them.(He ends up usually blackmailing them)

Kish
2009-10-20, 05:39 PM
He DOES attempt to ask the good outsiders to leave instead of killing them.

I don't think you're getting my point. This group has no moral right to bother nonevil outsiders at all.

(He ends up usually blackmailing them)
Well, that answers that. Lawful Evil.

ocdscale
2009-10-20, 05:40 PM
NPC 1: Around halfway between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil depending on his motivations for blowing the secret.

NPC 2: Mostly Lawful Good from what you've said, although if he resorts to physical/magical compulsion to force good outsiders to leave when words are not enough, Lawful Neutral

Overall, the organization seems to have strong Lawful tendencies due to their rather rigid belief about what belongs on the material plane and what doesn't. Doesn't look like there's any leeway to convince either of them that "No outsiders allowed" is an imperfect inflexible rule.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:43 PM
NPC 1: Around halfway between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil depending on his motivations for blowing the secret.


He is VERY zealous about the "No outsiders allowed rule" so he prefers to kill them, plus he has an ego THIS big:

__________________________________________________ ___________>

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 05:44 PM
Yeah, I'd place the first guy as CE. I throw around "E" pretty liberally though.

The second guy is semi-vague. Doesn't like killing good folks, doesn't mind killing evil folks, even-tempered, likes to lay low. Extorts good outsiders, because he dislikes outsiders.

Honestly, I'd place him as neutral, maybe with a tendency towards law/good/evil/chaos if you need it.

IMO, this group is stupid and unethical. Not saying your idea is bad (irrational people are great plot fodder, and material-purists are an organization that would probably occur), but the in-universe idea is sketchy. Doesn't make it automatically EVIL!, but they don't really have much moral right to bother good or even neutral outsiders.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 05:48 PM
Well in the campaign world there is extreme bias against all outsiders, which is why the angel had to lay low as a noble, the group was founded just after A demonic invasion AND a Zealous angel crusade that BOTH killed millions.

EDIT: Oh, and also after aberrations started becoming a problem.

ravenkith
2009-10-20, 05:49 PM
The second guy is lawful neutral.

Why?

Well, the LAW he is interested in enforcing is "Outsiders should stay out of prime material business".

The fact that he will go to whatever lengths necessary to get rid of outsiders WOULD peg him as evil, EXCEPT that he always seeks a mediated settlement of some kind first when dealing with good aligned outsiders. This upgrades him from evil to neutral, since he clearly favors good-aligned philosophies.

lsfreak
2009-10-20, 05:49 PM
IMO, this group is stupid and unethical. Not saying your idea is bad (irrational people are great plot fodder, and material-purists are an organization that would probably occur), but the in-universe idea is sketchy. Doesn't make it automatically EVIL!, but they don't really have much moral right to bother good or even neutral outsiders.

You are running a nice little kingdom, fairly peaceful and so on. Then people, all from a specific country, start coming in and whispering in the ears of the people that there's a better way, that this peaceful kingdom is wrong and there needs to be a change. Would you honestly not try and expel those responsible, including executing those who promote violent overthrow? And when the vast majority have their own agenda, how do you weed out which ones are truly there for purposes you are okay with?

It's just that instead of everyone coming from another kingdom, it's another plane on existence.

EDIT: And reinforced by the simu-post by the OP, what with angels and demons both responsible for the deaths of millions.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-20, 05:50 PM
They are both Chaotic Evil, because they inspired someone to make another alignment debate thread on the internet. :smallamused:

Zaydos
2009-10-20, 05:55 PM
I'd say the first guy is Evil, but not sure which one.

The second guy seems Lawful Neutral.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 06:30 PM
One thing that should be noted is that this group is the biggest obstacle in any evil outsiders mad plots. demon cults are stamped out pretty quickly and devil pretending to be nobles end up having their throats slit in the night. Without them Fiends would flourish.

Harperfan7
2009-10-20, 06:40 PM
We don't know their alignments.

We know that #1 committed an evil act and that #2 has neutral tendencies.

Sure #1 is High Cha, low Int, Wis, or both and #2 is kinda vice versa, but that's not alignment.


However, I would guess #1 is CN/CE and #2 is ...TN? Neutral in some way.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 06:46 PM
One thing that should be noted is that this group is the biggest obstacle in any evil outsiders mad plots. demon cults are stamped out pretty quickly and devil pretending to be nobles end up having their throats slit in the night. Without them Fiends would flourish.

Evil killing evil to prevent evil is still evil.

*shrug*

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 06:52 PM
Insert rational justification here

Fair enough. And it's the OP's setting - his rules. I find it doubtful that a single organization of dubious moral character would be the sole obstacle to fiendish propagation; but with the calamity OP mentioned many things in the world may be contrary to peacetime expectations.

I stand by my analyses. For the second guy, liking good people and disliking evil people is something neutrals do. He has an ideology and followers, but as he undermines the anti-outsider philosophy somewhat, he's not too lawful. He's even-handed and not too violent, but tries to get what benefit he can out of "good" outsiders - balances out to neutral.

The first guy... factors:
1) Huge ego
2) Strongly anti-outsider
3) Let slip the secret organization
4) Unashamedly violent.

#4 makes him evil in my opinion - universally slaying outsiders and murdering nobles entails a level of racism and hate generally considered evil by D&D quasi-modern morals.
#2 might seem to push him towards Law, but #3 is a big point in my view for him being chaotic. Contrary to the organization's welfare and likely prior orders, he revealed the organization. He went against what would benefit his organization (and judging from the fallout, perhaps even his anti-outsider cause; but that's a stretch) for the sake of himself and his ego. Such flaunting of authority and ideology for pursuit of the individual speaks to me of chaos.

Why is their alignment so necessary, though? You know their personality before giving them a label. If you're just doing this to see how much damage Holy Smite deals them, that's cool. But your players should think in terms of people and personalities, not alignment labels of Us v. Them, given the inherent moral grayness this organization entails.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 07:00 PM
A. It isn't exactly peaceful, A undead menace has begun appearing in the frozen wastes, and several nations are bordering on all-out war.


B. They aren't the ONLY obstacle to fiends, they are the BIGGEST, paladins are somewhat busy combating the new undead hoard, and also stopping a black dragon who worships Grummush who has organized a army of goblinoids that could tear apart the kingdom of the white lion.

EDIT: Also, yes, the organization was given prior orders to not try anything as the leader was close to making a deal with the angel, and he also specifically ordered NPC #1 not to do anything.

fractal_uk
2009-10-20, 07:02 PM
This organisation strikes me as highly lawful, it is utterly devoted to the cause of not having outside interference upon the material plane. Both NPCs share this goal entirely, thus from the information you have given I must conclude they are both Lawful.

Slaughtering good outsiders is clearly evil so NPC 1 is most definately evil. Thus he is lawful evil.

NPC 2, however, he is clearly biased towards good. He asks good outsiders to leave peacefully while simply killing evil ones. If he were truly lawful neutral, he should offer the same opportunities to both. As we know though, good people should not suffer a fiend to live so I would say NPC is Lawful Good. This alignment would be horrendously compromised if he resorted to killing good outsiders as a last resort if they didn't leave when asked though.

I can't imagine someone willing to do that would typically demonstate any particular "good bias" to begin with though... I could however see him resorting to non-lethal ways of getting rid of them, some of which strike me as entirely reasonable to the character and the LG alignment.

EDIT:


EDIT: Also, yes, the organization was given prior orders to not try anything as the leader was close to making a deal with the angel, and he also specifically ordered NPC #1 not too do anything.

This compromises NPC 1's lawfulness somewhat...

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 07:03 PM
This organisation strikes me as highly lawful, it is utterly devoted to the cause of not having outside interference upon the material plane. Both NPCs share this goal entirely, thus from the information you have given I must conclude they are both Lawful.

Slaughtering good outsiders is clearly evil so NPC 1 is most definately evil. Thus he is lawful evil.

NPC 2, however, he is clearly biased towards good. He asks good outsiders to leave peacefully while simply killing evil ones. If he were truly lawful neutral, he should offer the same opportunities to both. As we know though, good people should not suffer a fiend to live so I would say NPC is Lawful Good. This alignment would be horrendously compromised if he resorted to killing good outsiders as a last resort if they didn't leave when asked though.

I can't imagine someone willing to do that would typically demonstate any particular "good bias" to begin with though... I could however see him resorting to non-lethal ways of getting rid of them, some of which strike me as entirely reasonable to the character and the LG alignment.

There have been times where he has been forced to slit a celestial's throat in the middle of the night.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 07:07 PM
Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones.

Bias towards good people is a neutral trait. It's simply the acknowledgment that good people (outsiders) will contribute to the universe (in this case, everywhere but the Material plane) much more than evil people (fiends).
PS: And he kills good outsiders, so a good alignment is indeed compromised.

Utter devotion doesn't make one Lawful. Is the freedom fighter and anarchist utterly devoted to undermining all authority Lawful?
Quotes:


He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.


A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last.


A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do
CG can be utterly devoted to his own moral compass, which entails slaying outsiders. CN is utterly devoted to his whims - which may include slaying outsiders. CE does whatever his hatred drives him to do (with potential utter devotion), namely slaying outsiders.

fractal_uk
2009-10-20, 07:37 PM
Utter devotion doesn't make one Lawful. Is the freedom fighter and anarchist utterly devoted to undermining all authority Lawful?


I would say its entirely possible to have a lawful freedom fighter, a classic example might be a paladin in a tyrannical regime, though there is clearly nothing lawful about anarchy so that part is out. At the end of the day it depends upon each specific individual.

These people seem to have some well defined role given to them and their own specific methods of dealing with the situation they are in, which they evidently stick to. They are reliable in that you know what you exactly will get from each of them. They are judgemental and not particularly adaptable. NPC 1 particularly has some form of honour perhaps in that he is unwilling to commit deception to carry out his goals - he just gets on with them. These are all Lawful traits.



CG can be utterly devoted to his own moral compass, which entails slaying outsiders. CN is utterly devoted to his whims - which may include slaying outsiders. CE does whatever his hatred drives him to do (with potential utter devotion), namely slaying outsiders.


Chaotic good characters will lose their alignment very quickly if they are slaying *good* outsiders, regardless of their own moral compass.

Godskook
2009-10-20, 07:42 PM
I say that NPC 1 is definitely evil, and probably lawful(although chaotic is not uncalled for), while NPC 2 can be pretty much whatever you want him to be.

Haarkla
2009-10-20, 08:15 PM
NCP 1 is lawful evil.
Highly prejudiced (SRD: A lawful evil villain ... condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank). Quickly organized a group of like-minded members.

NPC 2 I need more information. Definitely non-good.

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 08:33 PM
Some additional info on #2 because you asked for it:

Exterica Detosde, Elven hero, was taught of the Invasion of the corrupted fire since he was a youngling, when a great demon army came to the material plane and let forth all their vicious might, destroying many a nation and hero, until infighting forced them too leave, then when he was 95 year old, the dark crusade of the angels began, he lost his entire family to the purging, he barely managed to escape the slaughter, he understood that his family was killed by misguided zealots, not the majority of angels, 25 years later, he joined the planesguardian, always believing that outsiders had caused enough damage, but he also knew that killing good outsiders would ultimately damage the material plane. now at age 170, he is the leader of the Guardians of the true plane, he has seen NPC #1's extreme views, but believed that he could be controlled, he quickly saw the error of his ways when NPC # 1 killed some beggers because he believed them to be demons, he would kill NPC #1 but that would cause a massive outcry, and he needs that organization to stick together to ultimately follow its code.

Godskook
2009-10-20, 08:39 PM
True Neutral or Neutral Good for sure, then. He reads like a guy who would join Internal Affairs of a police department. He's not against celestials who do their job, but he will oppose those that step out of their place.

Foeofthelance
2009-10-20, 08:46 PM
So NPC 2 actively hunts down evil outsiders, while doing everything he can to keep the Lawful Stupid ones at home?

Gamerlord
2009-10-20, 08:51 PM
So NPC 2 actively hunts down evil outsiders, while doing everything he can to keep the Lawful Stupid ones at home?

He considers them starved dogs- dangerous if not controlled, but controlled and used in contained bursts their hunger can aid the greater good.

Haarkla
2009-10-21, 08:31 AM
Some additional info on #2 because you asked for it:

Exterica Detosde, Elven hero, was taught of the Invasion of the corrupted fire since he was a youngling, when a great demon army came to the material plane and let forth all their vicious might, destroying many a nation and hero, until infighting forced them too leave, then when he was 95 year old, the dark crusade of the angels began, he lost his entire family to the purging, he barely managed to escape the slaughter, he understood that his family was killed by misguided zealots, not the majority of angels, 25 years later, he joined the planesguardian, always believing that outsiders had caused enough damage, but he also knew that killing good outsiders would ultimately damage the material plane. now at age 170, he is the leader of the Guardians of the true plane, he has seen NPC #1's extreme views, but believed that he could be controlled, he quickly saw the error of his ways when NPC # 1 killed some beggers because he believed them to be demons, he would kill NPC #1 but that would cause a massive outcry, and he needs that organization to stick together to ultimately follow its code.
I would have to say Lawful Neutral.

minchazo
2009-10-21, 08:51 AM
Question about #1:

Why did he kill the celestial and announce the Organization's involvement? Was it to get personal gain, or did he feel that it was in the best interests of his organization?

I mean, if the guy was doing everything solely for personal benefit, that's definitely evil. If he was doing it for what he believes is "The Greater Good," then he could be neutral - sacrificing himself in a misguided attempt to protect humanity.

Just because he defaults to violence doesn't make him evil, it just gives him a short life span: look at a Lawful stupid Paladin.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 08:52 AM
They are both Chaotic Evil, because they inspired someone to make another alignment debate thread on the internet. :smallamused:

This.


Also, 'Unaligned'.
Screw alignment. Unless they are personally devoted to the concept of cosmic Good and/or Evil (ie, direct disciple of Bahamut or Demogorgon), then there is no need to restrict your characterisations, no matter how subconciously, by pidgeon-holing them.

Kris Strife
2009-10-21, 09:03 AM
Is it strange that I'm seeing this group as analogous to a small town police force who can't stand those 'big city federal agents' coming and nosing around? The mob (demons) took over and after the ring fell apart, the feds (angels) finally showed up, some of them shooting first and asking questions late, and caused just as much damage. The chief's parents were gunned down, and while he hates criminals, he thinks the feds should keep their noses out of it. The deputy is an out and out bully who only became an officer to push people around in the first place.

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 09:27 AM
Is it strange that I'm seeing this group as analogous to a small town police force who can't stand those 'big city federal agents' coming and nosing around? The mob (demons) took over and after the ring fell apart, the feds (angels) finally showed up, some of them shooting first and asking questions late, and caused just as much damage. The chief's parents were gunned down, and while he hates criminals, he thinks the feds should keep their noses out of it. The deputy is an out and out bully who only became an officer to push people around in the first place.

This.

Such an organization makes me think a bit of the Necromancers, AKA priests of Rathma, in the Diabloverse- they want both factions to quit pushing humans around and manipulating them.

Guy 2: has a good chance of being deemed Good- if the setting is mortal-centric.

Guy 1: Evil- but possibly a very understandable Evil. A resentment of Outsiders in general is understandable if they are prone to causing a lot of trouble. But applying this to "innocent" outsiders is what pushes this guy toward Evil.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 01:46 PM
Question about #1:

Why did he kill the celestial and announce the Organization's involvement? Was it to get personal gain, or did he feel that it was in the best interests of his organization?

I mean, if the guy was doing everything solely for personal benefit, that's definitely evil. If he was doing it for what he believes is "The Greater Good," then he could be neutral - sacrificing himself in a misguided attempt to protect humanity.

Just because he defaults to violence doesn't make him evil, it just gives him a short life span: look at a Lawful stupid Paladin.
He believes in a greater good, he killed him because he is a fanatic follower of the code, he believes that all outsiders ultimately damage the plane. he likes announcing his titles, and he is a big braggart. He too lost his parents to the angels, but when #2 understood what the Zealots did, #1 went almost mad, and he hates any and all outsiders.

Commander_Vimes
2009-10-21, 02:24 PM
I think they are both very different flavors of Lawful Neutral. Lawful Neutral is the only alignment I can logically see wanting to keep all outsiders out of the material plane, while not caring what actually goes on there.

The first is a very rigid letter of the law Lawful Neutral with no sympathy or compassion for law breakers. He sounds like a very zealous follower of a god like St. Cuthbert who thinks that justice should be done in public for all to see. He probably leans closer to Lawful Evil than good given his violent streak, but he isn't necessarily using his position for personal gain (as far as we know).

The second is more forgiving of motivation for violating the law, but will still prosecute regardless of the letter of the law. He doesn't sound quite as zealous as the first, but still holds to the law without exception. He is probably closer to Lawful Good than Lawful Evil because he is less prone to using violence.

It sounds like the two are going to schism the organization over the means of upholding the law as apposed to disagreeing over the importance of the law. If the group was founded on the principles of stealthily performing its duties, it makes me wonder why the first guy joined, and how he reached so high a rank.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 02:30 PM
It sounds like the two are going to schism the organization over the means of upholding the law as apposed to disagreeing over the importance of the law. If the group was founded on the principles of stealthily performing its duties, it makes me wonder why the first guy joined, and how he reached so high a rank.


He hadn't killed a public official until that incident.

Random832
2009-10-21, 03:05 PM
NCP 1 is lawful evil.
Highly prejudiced (SRD: A lawful evil villain ... condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank). Quickly organized a group of like-minded members.

Except, he is condemning them based on their actions - namely, the action of invading the material plane. He's not going to Celestia to kill them.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-10-21, 03:44 PM
NPC 1: The leader of the Culprits, not the leader of the organization, but the second-in-command who kills first, checks the body later. He hates any and all outsiders, after he discovered the noble's secret he quickly organized a group of like-minded members and openly attacked the noble, not only proudly announcing his membership in this HIGHLY SECRET organization but also openly killing him in front of a large crowd.
Neutral Evil

Argument
The Evil part is pretty clear -

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
Anyone who revels in killing folks, or even just kills as their Plan A, is Evil.

On Law vs. Chaos, it is less clear:

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
Initially I was going to say Lawful, but it looks like NPC1 went against his Order's order (to keep secret) for the purpose of personal advancement. A LE fellow would have built up his own backing within the organization first or at least tried to push this shift of policy through the organization somehow.

And he's not Chaotic because of is interest in the organization. A CE individual would either have killed his boss, or gone the "my way or the highway" route - consciously assembling allies isn't very CE.


NPC 2: The leader of the organization, he prefers to politely and secretly orders the good outsiders to leave the plane, and kills the evil ones, he tries his best to make any and all killings secret, but this latest incident has catapulted the group into the public eye, and a large bounty has been posted on the heads of any members of the organizations, he was in the middle of convincing the noble to return to Celestia but NPC 1 decided to take matters into his own hands. He has condemned the killing but this has only inflamed the debate between members of the group and a schism could soon follow.
Lawful Good

Argument

Lawful is extremely straightforward.

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.
Not only is he The Boss of (what sounds to be) a Lawful-style organization (with an orderly hierarchy and such), but his response to rebellion was condemnation rather than personal action - he's staying within the rules, rather than acting directly against the rebel.

Good is the more complicated question:

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Going out of your way to nudge Good (and possibly Neutral?) folks out of the way shows a respect for life consistent with the Good alignment. Killing Evil for its own sake normally places you in a more Neutral position - but here we're presumably talking about Demons & Devils; creatures that are made of the very essence of Evil. Plus, he's likely running this organization with the protection of the world in mind.

Yeah, I had to make a few assumptions there; if he's less motivated by protecting people and more motivated towards preserving the Natural Order, he's Neutral.

EDIT: Tip of the hat to Foryn Gilnith for actually citing text. I may not agree with him, but I support the effort :smallbiggrin:

Random832
2009-10-21, 03:52 PM
What about [G/E]neutral outsiders? Are there only celestials and fiends in this?

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 04:00 PM
What about [G/E]neutral outsiders? Are there only celestials and fiends in this?


Refresh my memory, exactly which outsiders are neutral? :smallconfused:

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 04:03 PM
the Rilmani in Fiend Folio- natives of the Outlands- dedicated to the balance, and will act against any side they feel is upsetting it.

These are Neutral in its old "True Neutral" guise.

Formians are Lawful Neutral (modrons are living constructs rather than Outsiders) and Slaadi Chaotic Neutral.

Some other Outsiders have the same alignments, but lean very slightly toward one or the other.

Valkyries (Tome of Battle version) are CN, but lean very slightly toward Good, and their plane is one of the Upper Planes- Ysgard- even though it is not even mildly Good aligned.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 04:05 PM
the Rilmani in Fiend Folio- natives of the Outlands- dedicated to the balance, and will act against any side they feel is upsetting it.


Isn't the Fiend folio 1e?

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 04:07 PM
The name is- but names get passed down.

Manual of the Planes, Deities and Demigods, Fiend Folio, and even Draconomicon all existed, both in 3.0-3.5, and earlier editions.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 04:09 PM
Well I don't own that book.

hamishspence
2009-10-21, 04:12 PM
and I don't own any of those 2nd ed books.

But I have read them- they were interesting.

Fiend Folio is "3.25" (3.0, but so many of the 3.5 upgrades have been used to make it before they appeared in the three core books, that the only changes that needed to be made, in the online errata, were to Damage Reduction.)

And despite the name, not all that many of the creatures in it are Fiends- there is a wide variety.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 05:30 PM
Well then I guess there are no neutral outsiders, this is between celestials and fiends, the only middle ground is "Hate em both"

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-21, 05:37 PM
I may not agree with him, but I support the effort :smallbiggrin:

Eh, I can agree with you. The difference is marginal, anyway. The chances of somebody having Smite Extremist or Order's Wrath are low enough that you don't really need a rigorous alignment definition.

Ozymandias9
2009-10-21, 06:33 PM
Re: second NPC
The fact that he "prefers" to nudge the good outsiders implies to me that he is willing to kill them if they don't comply. This would seem to be to be LN with G leanings: he prefers the good actions, but places his neutral goals above moral concerns.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 08:29 PM
Re: second NPC
The fact that he "prefers" to nudge the good outsiders implies to me that he is willing to kill them if they don't comply. This would seem to be to be LN with G leanings: he prefers the good actions, but places his neutral goals above moral concerns.

He has killed good outsiders before, but only after thinking long and hard and weighing the Pros/cons.

Foeofthelance
2009-10-21, 09:17 PM
Re: second NPC
The fact that he "prefers" to nudge the good outsiders implies to me that he is willing to kill them if they don't comply. This would seem to be to be LN with G leanings: he prefers the good actions, but places his neutral goals above moral concerns.

The biggest problem I have with this argument isn't so much that its invalid, so much that we don't have enough information about the Good outsiders to know whether he's justified in keeping them out. The way I'm reading the situation isn't so much that the Angels are Feds coming in a little hot on the trigger finger, so much as they pretty much scorched earth anything that might have had contact with Evi. This is probably going to turn the thread ugly, but...

If a Lawful Good Paladin comes across a Lawful Stupid Paladin bent on genocide of anything "evil", and is unable to order/convince the other Paladin to stop or go somewhere else, is he justified in putting down the LS Paladin for good? Because that's basically what I'm interpreting this elf as doing.

Kylarra
2009-10-21, 09:24 PM
unrelated to the actual topic, but because I don't feel like bumping the other one, you need to have a caster level for the dismissal/banishment abilities, else having a caster level of 0 makes it very hard for them to do anything.

Gamerlord
2009-10-21, 09:31 PM
Perhaps I should explain the crusade and the demon invasion in more detail ...


The demon invasion came first, starting with madmen wizards corrupting special areas of the world so they could open up gates to the abyss, demon lords quickly unleashed a blitzkrieg that was brutally effective, quickly crushing several empires and all of the grand heroes of past were no more, either corrupted or killed, this had a great effect on the next generation, as they had no heroes of old to look up to, anyway
eventually the devils took advantage of the demons pouring their resources into the invasion and stormed the abyss, this caused major infighting between the demons as the chain of command fell apart, and they were forced to stop the invasion.

A dozen years later, it was discovered that a great number of half-fiends had been spawned by the invasion, as well as many people being slightly corrupted by the magics of the invasion. This caused some angelic zealots to begin a dark crusade, killing millions in their mindless rampage, eventually mortals and the other celestials stopped the zealots, the zealots, now thousands of years later, are still imprisoned in the LG version of a max-security prison.