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ex cathedra
2009-10-20, 05:34 PM
Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm)

This ability grants pounce permanently, due to its wording. Regardless of the intention, this is true. Several people in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128934) disagree. To stop from derailing it, I have created this thread.


Those spells are transmutation and impart a inherent score. So the spell alters the creature but then dissipates, which is why it gives you not additional control over the creature. You muck around in their brain parts then leave.

I'm aware. Are you?


Psychometabolism

Psychometabolism powers change the physical properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, psychometabolism powers are equivalent to powers of the transmutation school (thus, creatures immune to transmutation spells are also immune to psychometabolism powers).

PLC mucks about with your body parts and leaves you with the ability to pounce.

Ostien
2009-10-20, 05:40 PM
I think either PLC is poorly worded or all the spells/powers are.

Although, the specific rules for Creation spells I mentioned, I feel are still important. Creation specifically singles out instantaneous duration, making me think that if not specified to be permanent then it is just instantaneous. Making all the awaken spells the ones that are poorly worded.

But seriously try getting a DM to allow this. I certainly wouldn't it is clearly not RAI.

ex cathedra
2009-10-20, 05:45 PM
I agree that PLC is poorly worded. The ranger spell it is based upon has a duration of 1 round. However, PLC doesn't, and the effect is permanent because of this. I'm not saying that this is the intent of the power as it was being designed, but it is true. I'm being told otherwise, however, illogically so.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 05:48 PM
I count it as being more like fireball than wall of stone, but that's neither here nor there.

What's important is that it grants you a full attack in addition to the attack you gain after a charge, and the full attack can be made any time during the round (before, after, or in the middle of a charge).

This makes it much more versatile (and I'm not sure it's at all broken, even so).

Ostien
2009-10-20, 05:50 PM
Yes, but this is a text and all text is subject to interpretation. :smallwink:

The wording may be off but the intent is clear imo.


I count it as being more like fireball than wall of stone, but that's neither here nor there.

What's important is that it grants you a full attack in addition to the attack you gain after a charge, and the full attack can be made any time during the round (before, after, or in the middle of a charge).

This makes it much more versatile (and I'm not sure it's at all broken, even so).

Now this is something different but again I interpret this as you get a full attack insted of the normal standard attack from a charge. As this would give you a move, SA and a Full Attack. No, just no. Lions don't get that and that is not what pounce is.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 05:58 PM
Yes, but this is a text and all text is subject to interpretation. :smallwink:

The wording may be off but the intent is clear imo.



Now this is something different but again I interpret this as you get a full attack insted of the normal standard attack from a charge. As this would give you a move, SA and a Full Attack. No, just no. Lions don't get that and that is not what pounce is.Read the ability carefully, caballero, and get back to me. :smalltongue:

ex cathedra
2009-10-20, 06:00 PM
Heh, conversely, I'm under the opinion that the wording is clear. Regardless of the power's intent, the effects are fairly obvious in my opinion and further interpretation is up to your players and your DMs.

Edit:

Read the ability carefully, caballero, and get back to me. :smalltongue:

Actually, the ability actually isn't called pounce. Therefore, a character with pounce could technically perform two full attacks according to that interpretation. I'm less inclined to agree with this, naturally, due to (among many other things) a lack of full-round actions.

Ostien
2009-10-20, 06:04 PM
Read the ability carefully, caballero, and get back to me. :smalltongue:

No need to get dismissive but:


Pounce (Ex)

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So imo PLC gives you that, so a full attack including rake attacks. Charge allows you to move double and do an attack IMO PLC replaces the SA attack with a Full attack. Again rules are subjective and I think this is much more in line with RAI. Again me, as a DM, would not allow this and me as a player find this stupid and broken. All the other DMs and players in my group agree. So if you want to play by those subjective rules, fine. I'll play by my subjective rules.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 06:06 PM
No need to get dismissive but:


So imo PLC gives you that, so a full attack including rake attacks. Charge allows you to move double and do an attack IMO PLC replaces the SA attack with a Full attack. Again rules are subjective and I think this is much more in line with RAI. Again me, as a DM, would not allow this and me as a player find this stupid and broken. All the other DMs and players in my group agree. So if you want to play by those subjective rules, fine. I'll play by my subjective rules.Well, it says you follow a charge with a full attack. A charge is a move and a single attack, so you get a move and single attack followed by a full attack.

Seems perfectly clear to me. :smallsmile:

Ostien
2009-10-20, 06:07 PM
Well, it says you follow a charge with a full attack. A charge is a move and a single attack, so you get a move and single attack followed by a full attack.

Seems perfectly clear to me. :smallsmile:

seems pretty broken to me :smallamused:

lsfreak
2009-10-20, 06:07 PM
seems pretty broken to me :smallamused:

Fortunately, we're not discussing broken but the rules.

Ostien
2009-10-20, 06:09 PM
Fortunately, we're not discussing broken but the rules.

*insert rules are meant to be broken crack here*

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 06:12 PM
What gets really fun is when you manifest a power Linked with psionic lion's charge for next round, then manifest psionic lion's charge next round.

Do you get two full attack actions, or one full-attack action and two charges?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 06:37 PM
OMFG nice. Didn't notice that, assumed from the text it was 1 round duration. Instantaneous lol. But psionics is somewhat neglected; presumably in editing too.


seems pretty broken to me :smallamused:

If we're arguing opinion and balance, the answer is obvious. It lasts for a round. This is just having fun extrapolating the poor duration for the lulz.

On the topic of duration, "permanent" effects can be either Instantaneous or Permanent. If you want real permanency, like an Awaken spell, it's instantaneous. The change is instantly produced and cannot subsequently be dispelled. "Permanent" is less permanent than instantaneous, paradoxically, because Permanent spells are vulnerable to Dispel Magic and its kin.

Samb
2009-10-20, 06:56 PM
What gets really fun is when you manifest a power Linked with psionic lion's charge for next round, then manifest psionic lion's charge next round.

Do you get two full attack actions, or one full-attack action and two charges?

No matter what you think of the duration this should work..... how about if you twin it?


I think the wording in instantaneous is also a bit of an issue. It doesn't specify which spells/powers do have lasting effects and which do not only that this was the case.