Does Roy have a Caster level? [speculation]

[DougTheHead]

I was looking at comic 113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html), at looking at Eugene's comment in the second-to-last panel. "You'll be back to cantrips in a week." As far as I can tell, this could mean two things.

One, it means, "You'll hate being a fighter, and be back to learning the basics to casting the simplest cantrips withing a week."

Or, it means, "Fighter College will make you into such a thickheaded idiot so fast that within a week, you'll only be able to cast cantrips."

The first interpretation is the most widely accepted, I think, because it shows Eugene being dismissive and condescending toward Roy in a familiar way. But if it were the second interpretation, this would imply that Roy has at least one arcane caster level, and assuming that Fighter College didn't rob him of any magical abilities, he still might have it. It would make sense that a younger Roy was bullied into taking Wizard for his first level by the overbearing Eugene, and that Roy today refuses to use any magic, out of his need to prove to his father that he can defeat Xykon as a pure fighter, and now doesn't talk about his first few levels, preferring everyone to think of him as a pure fighter.

One possible question I think I can anticipate: "Why didn't he cast feather fall when his life was on the line? Surely he would have been able to get over his grudge against Eugene then, of all times." Probably, but I would guess that he just hadn't chosen that particular spell.

So yeah, what do you think? It's a crazy theory, but I find those are often the most fun to subscribe to.

[BatRobin]

Casting cantrips?


I'm pretty sure cantrips means basics.

[spargel]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cantrips

[The Dark Fiddler]

Probably, but I would guess that he just hadn't chosen that particular spell.

Or he has no spells prepared.

And probably doesn't even have his spellbook anymore.

Not commenting on the theory itself though, which is unusual for me.

[Inhuman Bot]

So yeah, what do you think?It's a crazy theory, but I find those are often the most fun to subscribe to.

No.



It's a crazy theory.
Yup.

[Kish]

A single-classed fighter, just like I am. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I don't think Feather Fall counts as a cantrip... Isn't that a 1st Level Spell?

But I've always thought Roy should know a few simple spells, and the basics of Magic. Even if you don't really get along with your parents, you tend to pick things up...

My Grandfather was a draftsman, and taught my Dad how to draw building plans. My Dad was a mechanic, and I know how to change brake pads, do tune ups and basic stuff like that. But I'm not sure what my kids know from my Navy years... My skillsets aren't something you can really bring home and share.

[David Argall]

One possible question I think I can anticipate: "Why didn't he cast feather fall when his life was on the line? Surely he would have been able to get over his grudge against Eugene then, of all times." Probably, but I would guess that he just hadn't chosen that particular spell.

While the basic answer seems to be that this theory is just wrong, Feather Fall ranks very high in the list of spells a fighter with one level of mage might take. It requires only verbal components and thus is not bothered by fighter armor, and a low level caster is often as effective as a high level one. So unless Roy was really fanatic about never casting a spell, he would be quite likely to learn Feather Fall if he ever had a wizard level.

[Porthos]

A single-classed fighter, just like I am. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)

Nice try. But when has using direct and irrefutable evidence from the comic ever solved a debate on this forum? :smallamused:

[Lvl45DM!]

Like V said it take a long time before you get your first level of wizard
Roy wouldve been fooling around with cantrips but would be a first level wizard just have a few of the basics of knowledge
but lack of useage over years in addition to no further training means hes lost it cos magic is the kinda thing you need to keep at, thats why wizards have to re learn spells everyday
so he doesnt have a caster level he has some pre caster experience

[Shpadoinkle]

He probably knows the basics of magical theory and some of the terminology just from being around Eugene so much while he was growing up, but as was mentioned above, it was explicitly stated in the comic that Roy is a single classed fighter. No, he can't cast spells directly, he'd have to use an intermediary like a magic item.

[Shale]

Like V said it take a long time before you get your first level of wizard


On the other hand, Julia is a third-level wizard at the age of 16.

But yes, single-class fighter. Theory over.

[veti]

Is everyone forgetting Roy has at least one level in Future Psychic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html)?

Oh? Never mind then.

[Blue Ghost]

Is everyone forgetting Roy has at least one level in Future Psychic?

Oh? Never mind then.

That means that Roy will take a level of a psionic class sometime in the future, right?
But if Elan knew that, then he must be a future psychic too... but we know that he's a reverse psion...

[Katana_Geldar]

Someone explain this to me: what exactly are cantrips in 3.0 then? If Roy had them for some reason, what would they be?

And it's 3.0, not 3.5.

[Shale]

I just figured Eugene was trying to force Roy to learn basic magic and he quit and went to Fighter College instead.

[Kish]

Someone explain this to me: what exactly are cantrips in 3.0 then? If Roy had them for some reason, what would they be?

And it's 3.0, not 3.5.
Cantrips are 0-level arcane spells.

[Herald Alberich]

He probably knows the basics of magical theory and some of the terminology just from being around Eugene so much while he was growing up, but as was mentioned above, it was explicitly stated in the comic that Roy is a single classed fighter. No, he can't cast spells directly, he'd have to use an intermediary like a magic item.

Rules wise, that probably translates to a rank each in Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana). An entire Wizard level is very unlikely, I agree.

[Jagos]

Nice try. But when has using direct and irrefutable evidence from the comic ever solved a debate on this forum? :smallamused:

Ha...
Ha, ha...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man, I needed that. Thanks Porthos.

[Bibliomancer]

Rules wise, that probably translates to a rank each in Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana). An entire Wizard level is very unlikely, I agree.

He could also have taken a feat from the Complete Arcane. There are several in there that allow a character to cast 3 or 4 specific cantrips once per day each.

[hamishspence]

The concept of "a little magical training without class levels" first appeared in FRCS (3.0) then got expanded somewhat in Complete Arcane.

in FRCS, it stated that, in Halruaa (a land dominated by magic) roughly a third of the population have the Magical Training feat, but no arcane class levels, and a much lower proportion are actual mages.

I'm not sure if Rich uses this system or a similar one though. Is there a Magical Training-type feat in Tome & Blood? Rich has already used Orb spells, possibly from that.

Also, in the Drizzt books, Drizzt learns to cast a few cantrips and whatnot before reaching adulthood, but he took no levels in arcane classes (apart from ranger, much later) and his statblock in both 2nd ed and 3.5 lacks this ability- maybe it was retrained away?

So Roy might have had the ability to cast cantrips, but lost it once he passed from 0th level character to 1st level character.

[rangermania]

{Scrubbed}

[danielmayer]

though he *may* be a F14/Wiz0 with bonus cantrips from high intelligence....
- which he'll use in the most dire but appropriate moment!
- Or is he perhaps a F14/Sor0?

[Ancalagon]

Is it really that hard to understand? What Eugene says is: "He might go to fighter college today, but soon he'll be back to take his first level as Wizard..."

[hamishspence]

the phrasing "back to cantrips" can be taken to mean that, right then, Roy was already able to cast cantrips.

Hence the questions.

I lean to the view that Roy "has the gift" and that in OoTS, as in Faerun, not all people have the gift- and some people are unable to become wizards, bards, sorcerers, etc, no matter what.

However, having the gift, and having a spell list, are two different things.

[Kobold-Bard]

Maybe Roy is Gestalt Fighter//Wizard but doesn't know it.

His memory of his Wizard levels have been blocked by some means, after all the only thing better for Wizards than Fighters besides Spells is Will Save, and the only time I can think of him failing one of these was Unholy Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), but so did everyone else so the Goblin probably just had a High Save DC.

So Roy can cast Cantrips, and many other spells, but somehow (possibly his dad being a general douche, or his Fighter instructors didn't like it) he can't cast them, but it does leave a nice idea for the Final Battle.

Edit: And since The Giant originally planned to make Roy a Wizard in place of V my theory now has proof. Sweet, delicious undeniable proof :smallamused:

[Pyron]

Edit: And since The Giant originally planned to make Roy a Wizard in place of V my theory now has proof. Sweet, delicious undeniable proof :smallamused:

And Nale is Elan... from the future! :smallwink:

[Moff Chumley]

Snip

I love you. So much.

[waterpenguin43]

I don't think Feather Fall counts as a cantrip... Isn't that a 1st Level Spell?

But I've always thought Roy should know a few simple spells, and the basics of Magic. Even if you don't really get along with your parents, you tend to pick things up...


Well yeah, he knows a lot about the nature of magic (Remember hiring V?).
He just doesn't use magic because it'll cheese off Eugene.

[factotum]

Well yeah, he knows a lot about the nature of magic (Remember hiring V?).
He just doesn't use magic because it'll cheese off Eugene.

He doesn't use magic because he never learned any (possibly as a reaction to his father's attempts to get him to learn it, but that's another matter). His grandfather called him a single-classed fighter in Celestia, so that's what he is--there's no reason for his grandfather to have lied, after all.

[Kobold-Bard]

I love you. So much.

Aw thanks :smallredface: :smalltongue:

[donkyhotay]

I'm pretty certain that if roy had *any* magic (especially feather-fall) we would have seen evidence of it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm pretty certain that if roy had *any* magic (especially feather-fall) we would have seen evidence of it here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

Hence my memory blocking theory (although calling it a theory when it's obviously fact is a bit silly :smallbiggrin:)

[grautry]

Here's a thought: maybe he did indeed have a level of Wizard but he later retrained it to Fighter.

[JT Jag]

I know a DM who allows unstatted but plot-important commoner-type NPCs (usually children) to retain certain effects of the class they consider taking in the future.

For instance, a 9-year old who is considering becoming a wizard toys around with level 0 spells in his free time. However, it takes dedication (read: a character level) for it to be sustainable, and shifting your focus in another direction (read: a non-caster character level) means that you don't spend the off-screen time and energy to continue wasting time with that.

Just one story.

[Inhuman Bot]

Nice try. But when has using direct and irrefutable evidence from the comic ever solved a debate on this forum? :smallamused:

That'd be funny if it weren't so true. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

For instance, a 9-year old who is considering becoming a wizard toys around with level 0 spells in his free time.

That's kind of assuming that level 0 spells are toys or playthings. I look at it differently: to my mind, you still have to learn all the complicated and difficult business of telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down even in order to cast the simplest cantrip, so it might take years of study even to get to that point. There's no evidence Roy spent those years studying wizardry, especially since the mysterious event involving his little brother (which is where his real split with Eugene came, IMHO) must have happened when he was very young.

[Inhuman Bot]

For instance, a 9-year old who is considering becoming a wizard toys around with level 0 spells in his free time. However, it takes dedication (read: a character level) for it to be sustainable, and shifting your focus in another direction (read: a non-caster character level) means that you don't spend the off-screen time and energy to continue wasting time with that.


"Hmm... That kid's annoying me. Hey Bob, come here."
"yeah?"
*Acid splash*

[DougTheHead]

It's a crazy theory, but I find those are often the most fun to subscribe to.

No.
Damn, Slaanesh, who pissed in your Cheerios? I'd be more upset if your name didn't have 2 consecutive a's in it- a clear signifier that you take these boards too seriously.


Is everyone forgetting Roy has at least one level in Future Psychic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html)?

Oh? Never mind then.


Maybe Roy is Gestalt Fighter//Wizard but doesn't know it.

His memory of his Wizard levels have been blocked by some means, after all the only thing better for Wizards than Fighters besides Spells is Will Save, and the only time I can think of him failing one of these was Unholy Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), but so did everyone else so the Goblin probably just had a High Save DC.

So Roy can cast Cantrips, and many other spells, but somehow (possibly his dad being a general douche, or his Fighter instructors didn't like it) he can't cast them, but it does leave a nice idea for the Final Battle.

Edit: And since The Giant originally planned to make Roy a Wizard in place of V my theory now has proof. Sweet, delicious undeniable proof :smallamused:

Haha, those are awesome ideas. Now THESE are some theories I can get behind.

[AngryScientist]

i think thatd be pretty cool if that was true and got incorporated into the story somehow

[Kobold-Bard]

... Haha, those are awesome ideas. Now THESE are some theories I can get behind.

Why thank you, I'm actually quite proud of that one.

[The MunchKING]

I don't think Feather Fall counts as a cantrip... Isn't that a 1st Level Spell?

But I've always thought Roy should know a few simple spells, and the basics of Magic. Even if you don't really get along with your parents, you tend to pick things up...

My Grandfather was a draftsman, and taught my Dad how to draw building plans. My Dad was a mechanic, and I know how to change brake pads, do tune ups and basic stuff like that. But I'm not sure what my kids know from my Navy years... My skillsets aren't something you can really bring home and share.

That could be ranks of Spellcraft though, rather than actual Wizard levels.

[Spiky]

Why does it feel like this thread belongs in a fan-fic forum?

[Argeus]

Well, Roy is speculated to have at least 13 Int, so it feels like a waste if he doesn't take a Wizard level, if only for the Mage Armor/Shield/Ghostly Visage.

[Kish]

Well, Roy is speculated to have at least 13 Int, so it feels like a waste if he doesn't take a Wizard level, if only for the Mage Armor/Shield/Ghostly Visage.
That's how his father saw it.

And that, more than any other reason, is why Roy will never multiclass, least of all to wizard.

[Argeus]

And besides, that's how I Munchkin my way through Neverwinter Nights: Fighter/Wizard, (Extended) Bull Strength/Endurance/Cat's Grace/Flame Weapon/Keen Edge/Greater Magic Weapon/Stone Skin/Shield/Magic Armor/Ghostly Visage/Improved Invisibility/Endure Element. Cast in town and ROCK ON!

We know the Order's stance on Munchkining already, haven't we?