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Thurbane
2009-10-20, 08:43 PM
OK, I know it's been flogged to death, but I was wondering if it is possible to build an optimized Monk without multiclassing or PrCs? I know of Giacomo's Joker Monk, but I am thinking more along the lines of a "traditional monk", but with his race, skills, feats and gear as optimized as possible...

Is human the best 0 LA race for a monk?
What feats are essential: Kung-fu Genius, Superior Unarmed Strike, ToB manouvre feats etc.
The best gear: Monk's Belt, Ward Cestus (counts as unarmed strike and can be enchanted)...

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 08:46 PM
Psychic warrior makes a darned good 'alternative class levels' for a monk. And the required feat for that one is Talashtora. :smalltongue:

Also, a sparring dummy of the master. Gives 10' steps (as opposed to 5' steps) for monks only.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 08:56 PM
1) Get Kung Fu Genius feat.
2) Get a shirt. Add +8 armor bonus (from bracers of armor) add permanent Magic vestment +5.
3) Get a Monk Belt.
4) Get Superior Unarmed strike feat.
5) Get Versatile Unarmed strike feat.
6) Get Gauntlets or Ki straps, get permanent Greater Mighty Wallop on them.
7) Get Weapon Finesse feat.
8) Get highest stats possible for Dex and Int.
9) ???
10) Profit!
11) Run around beating everything to death wearing only a shirt, rope belt, and gauntlets/ki straps.

Eldariel
2009-10-20, 08:57 PM
Kung-Fu Genius is no good without multiclassing or some racial focus; its purpose is to make Monk AC work for Int-based characters. And really, best Monk? I'd say Water Orc; you can't afford small size due to UA damage dice being the source of your damage, and +4 Str, +2 Con with only -2 Wis really help with the MAD issue (though you can still only pull off like 18/16/16/6/14/6 on 32pb).

It makes for a decent basis, though you'll still have serious issues with AC especially. Good news is that your attack will be semi-alright. You could get 20 Str by dropping Dex or Wis by 2, but meh. At least you'll be decent in combat maneuvers like that.


Alternatively, the more SAD variants are definitely more doable; Dex in particular is intriguing and e.g. Lesser Tiefling with Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk and Shadow Blade+Weapon Finesse would be a decent basic brawler; stats are around 8 Str/20 Dex/14 Con/18 Int/8 Wis/6 Cha and then you just avoid all the combat maneuvers like plague.

The problem is that without combat maneuvers, Monk just isn't doing much; it can't match damage dealers nor do anything else better than the other options, and this one just burned 3 feats on becoming more focused stat-wise (or more 'cause you gotta pick up a Shadow Hand Stance; better hope flaws are allowed, I guess).

The final option is Wis SAD with Anthropomorphic Bat or such for Stunning Fist spam on Intuitive Attack to get attacks off Wis, but given the number of things immune to Stunning Fist, the number of things with good Fort-saves and the fact that the character literally ONLY has Stunning Fist going on for it, I wouldn't suggest that either


Frankly, I like the Str-focused build best; it can make the most use of what the Monk-class offers, but just falls to the general mediocrity Monks so easily suffer of. The second one is fine as far as brawling goes, but numerically loses out to real warriors and only has Stunning Fist as far as auxillary options go. Also pretty starved feat-wise. At least it has a lot of skill points and a good AC though (I actually dare to call AC good here). The third one just sucks; it was just to explore the Wis SAD angle, but unfortunately, you cannot get real damage out of there nor has a sufficient variety in what saves you can force to make it viable in a real campaign.


As for Monk equipment, adding:
- Fanged Ring
- Necklace of Natural Attacks [both Savage Species]

Also note that with Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands, Monk can get Pounce.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 09:08 PM
1) Get Kung Fu Genius feat.
2) Get a shirt. Add +8 armor bonus (from bracers of armor) add permanent Magic vestment +5.
3) Get a Monk Belt.
4) Get Superior Unarmed strike feat.
5) Get Versatile Unarmed strike feat.
6) Get Gauntlets or Ki straps, get permanent Greater Mighty Wallop on them.
7) Get Weapon Finesse feat.
8) Get highest stats possible for Dex and Int.
9) ???
10) Profit!
11) Run around beating everything to death wearing only a shirt, rope belt, and gauntlets/ki straps.


Use MiC rules to add a strength enchantment to the monk's belt too, no? That and wisdom need to be pumped as high as possible also. It won't be cheap, but the MiC rules at least allow you to invest repeatedly in an item over time, which helps quite a bit.

Also, if you can get an item that allows you to get miss chances(I like blink, personally, since the ability to move through walls is awesome), by all means, do so.

You're going to eventually end up pumping every stat but cha, most likely. Incidentally, UMD helps *any* class out significantly. Im not saying that monk and UMD are synergistic, because they really aren't, but hey, if you're going pure monk, a little magical buffing and such might be handy.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 09:18 PM
2) Get a shirt. Add +8 armor bonus (from bracers of armor) add permanent Magic vestment +5.
6) Get Gauntlets or Ki straps, get permanent Greater Mighty Wallop on them.
This is nonsense, of course. Shirts (which occupy the Torso body slot) cannot have Bracers of Armor abilities; the Adding/Improving Common Item Effects table in Magic Item Compendium makes that clear. And Permanency cannot be applied to either Magic Vestment or (Greater) Mighty Wallop.

As a Monk reaches 20th level a Monk's Belt will not provide any benefit, since their abilities do not increase past that point. A Belt of Magnificence starts to make reasonable sense, since the Monk normally really needs 5 of the 6 abilities and the Belt provides a discounted price for boosting all 6.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 09:18 PM
Use MiC rules to add a strength enchantment to the monk's belt too, no? That and wisdom need to be pumped as high as possible also. It won't be cheap, but the MiC rules at least allow you to invest repeatedly in an item over time, which helps quite a bit.

Also, if you can get an item that allows you to get miss chances(I like blink, personally, since the ability to move through walls is awesome), by all means, do so.

You're going to eventually end up pumping every stat but cha, most likely. Incidentally, UMD helps *any* class out significantly. Im not saying that monk and UMD are synergistic, because they really aren't, but hey, if you're going pure monk, a little magical buffing and such might be handy.


mmm money (what little is left ugh) would be better spent on increasing dex instead of str especially if going the DEX for dodge and damage route. Unless you multi-class for 3 levels of swashbuckler to get Str-Dex-AND-Int to damage. But he said no multiclassing so... Aim for pumping Dex and Int only, the rest goes by the way side. Dex for dodge and damage, Int for skills and AC bonus unarmored. It will cost a lot for the items granted, but they really do help and you CAN upgrade. Armor without armor, and Damage without weapons. Can up your monk US five sizes, which scales with belt, SUS feat AND your natural progression.

At least that's what I plan to do... but I'm going Monk/ Factotum so...




This is nonsense, of course. Shirts (which occupy the Torso body slot) cannot have Bracers of Armor abilities; the Adding/Improving Common Item Effects table in Magic Item Compendium makes that clear. And Permanency cannot be applied to either Magic Vestment or (Greater) Mighty Wallop.

As a Monk reaches 20th level a Monk's Belt will not provide any benefit, since their abilities do not increase past that point. A Belt of Magnificence starts to make reasonable sense, since the Monk normally really needs 5 of the 6 abilities and the Belt provides a discounted price for boosting all 6.

Nonsense? Hostile much? You can add any spell you want to any item via the craft X feat. Its in the DMG. Custom magic items. Making a spell continuous is what I meant, not the spell permanency. Also rules in there for slot affinities. Sure it's expensive but works.

also you second point is debatable and much argued upon. There are charts in the DMG which have progression of natural attack damage and so fourth. If you mean beyond epic. well... not much experience there myself but from what I hear it is pretty broken. One may need to argue it sure, but it doesn't mean it's non-debateable. Also, Monk's belt will add Wis to AC along with your own natural monk Int to AC with the feat- arguably.

*shrug*

Thurbane
2009-10-20, 09:20 PM
Kung-Fu Genius is no good without multiclassing or some racial focus; its purpose is to make Monk AC work for Int-based characters.
Really? Aren't the skill points worth it?

karnokoto
2009-10-20, 09:39 PM
11) Run around beating everything to death wearing only a shirt, rope belt, and gauntlets/ki straps.

No pants D:

Paulus
2009-10-20, 09:41 PM
No pants D:

Exactly.

Hey there isn't a Pants slot, so who needs em? You can go through your entire career without them.

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-20, 09:41 PM
No pants D:

Have you looked at his magic gear? He can't afford pants. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 09:49 PM
mmm money (what little is left ugh) would be better spent on increasing dex instead of str especially if going the DEX for dodge and damage route. Unless you multi-class for 3 levels of swashbuckler to get Str-Dex-AND-Int to damage.

Ehh, money is a problem, yes. Thing of it is, 20 straight levels of monk is going to require lots of magical item help to be any decent at all. I mean, unless the game is tending a bit toward monty haul, the monk is just going to lag behind the others more and more.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 09:53 PM
Ehh, money is a problem, yes. Thing of it is, 20 straight levels of monk is going to require lots of magical item help to be any decent at all. I mean, unless the game is tending a bit toward monty haul, the monk is just going to lag behind the others more and more.

yup. but that' s just poor design. Nothing we can really change about it, magic items are the bandaid, and the best magic items are reeeeaaaaaaaalllyy expensive.

System assumes you have them though. So there you go.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-20, 09:56 PM
Nonsense? Hostile much? No, not at all. I'm just using the dictionary definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nonsense): "language having little or no sense or meaning". Since your suggestions are in violation of the rules, they make no sense.
You can add any spell you want to any item via the craft X feat. Its in the DMG. Custom magic items. No, you cannot "add any spell you want to any item". There is no "Craft X" feat. And there is no "Custom Magic Items" section in the DMG. If you're thinking of the Creating Magic Items section, it says this:
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of magic items you invent. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. ...
Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. ... other items require at least some DM judgment calls. Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples.
The DMG doesn't even provide firm pricing if you could add a particular spell to a particular item, much less state that you can add such a spell. Every item that doesn't follow the existing rules must be approved by the DM. A custom item created under one DM may be rejected by a DM's judgment call in another game. Those are the rules.

also you second point is debatable and much argued upon. There are charts in the DMG which have progression of natural attack damage and so fourth. If you mean beyond epic. well... not much experience there myself but from what I hear it is pretty broken. One may need to argue it sure, but it doesn't mean it's non-debateable.
There is no debate possible here if you read the rules.
Unarmed Strike

The damage for a monk’s unarmed strike does not increase after 20th level. If you're a 20th level Monk, neither a Monk's Belt nor the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (nor the two together) will provide any boost to your unarmed strike damage.

Also, there is no "beyond epic" in the D&D rules. Nonsense again.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-20, 09:59 PM
ToB maneuver items add a nice touch, the novice ones are rather cheap for a nice payoff.

devotion feats early on ,if there's room, for some decent benefits that scale with level (death devotion comes to mind early, but it'll be less useful than some of the others later on.)

Belt of Battle helps any class, battle charger boots, Anything that will more easily let a monk stick-and-move

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-20, 10:08 PM
If we're going to go into items for buffing, I personally recommend spell turrets. Cheap, affordable, and effectively always on. Just make sure they were designed to only target the owner.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 10:09 PM
There is no debate possible here if you read the rules. If you're a 20th level Monk, neither a Monk's Belt nor the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (nor the two together) will provide any boost to your unarmed strike damage.

Also, there is no "beyond epic" in the D&D rules. Nonsense again.

This is correct. Monk unarmed damage stops increasing at 20. However, it will provide an additional AC. If a single untyped AC is worth the slot and investment is certainly open to debate, though.

The "it adds 1+wis to your existing 1+int" is pretty questionable, though. It adds AC as a monk of 5 levels higher. Presumably, as if YOU had five levels more of monk. The detail of what stat this is based off of is not specified in the belt, so if you've modified how that works in some way, the belt should not change that.

Stompy
2009-10-20, 10:22 PM
If we're going to go into items for buffing, I personally recommend spell turrets. Cheap, affordable, and effectively always on. Just make sure they were designed to only target the owner.

so, here's what you ACTUALLY do,
you make spell turrets (DMG2) and you also make a turtle shell out of (thin?) adamantine with a thin sheet of lead (for hilarity) and leather. due to the construction, the turrets will only have a line of effect to you. Six turrets should fit in this (they are diminutive, hence they roughly occupy a sphere of diameter 6 inches.) You line up the spell turrets so that each one is touching you, and none of them recognize you, therefore they go fire their spells at the closest (and only legal) non-recognized target, you.

Every 4/5 rounds, a spell at you.

And all of the spells are buffs.

So, in stacking order, here's what some turrets can do for you. Note that personal spells do not work.

4- Paladin
Favor of the Martyr, Draconic Might, Dispel Evil, Restoration,
4- Wizard
Stoneskin, Wings of Air greater, Battle Hymn, Improved Invisibility
3- Wizard
Fly, MC against Evil, Displacement, Heroism,
3- Wizard
Haste, Pro from Energy (fire), Mage Armor Greater, Tongues
2- Wizard
Protection from Arrows, Insight of Good Fortune, Blur, Cat's Grace
2- Wizard
Resist energy (cold), Invisibility, Insight of Good Fortune, Owl's Wisdom
2- Wizard
Resist energy (lightning), Swim, Spawn Screen, Insight of Good Fortune
2- Wizard
Resist energy (sonic), Fox's Cunning, See Invisibility, Create Magical Tattoo
1- Wizard
burning rage, ironguts, mage armor, blood wind
1- wizard
mage armor, blood wind, ebon eyes, protection from chaos


There is a projected formula for the turrets, (spell level * caster level * 500 gp) It matches the prices listed in the DMG 2. This means that a level 1 spell turret (theoretically) costs 500 gp. Also, for some reason, expensive material costs don't get factored into the price. (Check the DMG2 examples)

Paulus
2009-10-20, 10:22 PM
No, not at all. I'm just using the dictionary definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nonsense): "language having little or no sense or meaning". Since your suggestions are in violation of the rules, they make no sense. No, you cannot "add any spell you want to any item". There is no "Craft X" feat. And there is no "Custom Magic Items" section in the DMG. If you're thinking of the Creating Magic Items section, it says this: The DMG doesn't even provide firm pricing if you could add a particular spell to a particular item, much less state that you can add such a spell. Every item that doesn't follow the existing rules must be approved by the DM. A custom item created under one DM may be rejected by a DM's judgment call in another game. Those are the rules.

There is no debate possible here if you read the rules. If you're a 20th level Monk, neither a Monk's Belt nor the Superior Unarmed Strike feat (nor the two together) will provide any boost to your unarmed strike damage.

Also, there is no "beyond epic" in the D&D rules. Nonsense again.

Violation of the rules? I believe I have not violated the rule of fun in this game in any way.

The custom magic item again is not some term I pulled from the DMG it is a term I used to clarify what I'm saying since there is no such item in existence. Also, there are rules in the DMG for adding any spell to an item, it's called "This is a game and you can do whatever you want as a DM, so here is what you should probably stick to to be fair." It's under creating magic items yes, all that is required is the proper feat "Craft X" here being a place holder reference for Craft Magical arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item, or Craft Wand, or Brew Potion, or Craft Ring. Since I did not wish to list all of them I simply used the oft cited 'Craft' term followed by the "X" which in mathematics is often a place holder for an unknown or variable what have you.

Under the defining crafting magic items and determining a value for such item the chart gives you the ability to define a price for custom magic items, such as what the DM may wish to create. In such a case one need only use these guidelines for the player to be able to create such a thing as well. They would in turn need the proper feat, and then all they would have to do is use the chart to determine the proper price for such a item and following the guidelines in the feat descriptions half the price, pay 4% of total price in xp, and then take a number of day per thousand and such to craft the item.

And as per rules in the MiC one can add enhancements of anything they wish to an item via upgrading it. Which I have done several times all within the rules, and all OKed by my DM. Which means it's possible. Do you have to run it by your DM? certainly. DM has final say no matter what you create. DM has final say no matter what PRC's you choice, or what build you are trying to make too. so I hardly see that as a defining problem.

And as this has all happened, as it has followed all the rules I know of. I see none of it as nonsense, and find your writing off of it to be... saddening... your interpretation of the rules may be what you go by, and sure it can be agreed upon by others as much as you like. But the OP wasn't asking for just your interpretation of the rules vastly more agreed upon or not, he was asking for everyone's opinion and options. If you don't like mine, hey that's fine. You are free to do so. I would appreciate it if you didn't try to beat me over the head with your interpretation as you do so though. As I shall simply respond with "Well there aren't any rules against it." Especially if the DM says I can.

So i will be happy to agree to disagree with you, just not so negatively if you please. I like to play nice in the playground. Even with people that don't agree with me or blissfully take me as an idiot, an idiot is still entitled to his opinion, but that doesn't mean you should call me one. And not that I'm calling you one either, but I was feeling attacked.

Eh defensive fool I be. Pay no mind.

good_lookin_gus
2009-10-20, 10:40 PM
You can save some loot on your offensive side by just waiting for the party mage to chain greater magic weapon, which specifically permits a monk's unarmed strike. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm)

Glimbur
2009-10-20, 10:41 PM
so, here's what you ACTUALLY do,
you make spell turrets (DMG2) and you also make a turtle shell out of (thin?) adamantine with a thin sheet of lead (for hilarity) and leather. due to the construction, the turrets will only have a line of effect to you. Six turrets should fit in this (they are diminutive, hence they roughly occupy a sphere of diameter 6 inches.) You line up the spell turrets so that each one is touching you, and none of them recognize you, therefore they go fire their spells at the closest (and only legal) non-recognized target, you.

Every 4/5 rounds, a spell at you.

And all of the spells are buffs.

So, in stacking order, here's what some turrets can do for you. Note that personal spells do not work.

4- Paladin
Favor of the Martyr, Draconic Might, Dispel Evil, Restoration,
4- Wizard
Stoneskin, Wings of Air greater, Battle Hymn, Improved Invisibility
3- Wizard
Fly, MC against Evil, Displacement, Heroism,
3- Wizard
Haste, Pro from Energy (fire), Mage Armor Greater, Tongues
2- Wizard
Protection from Arrows, Insight of Good Fortune, Blur, Cat's Grace
2- Wizard
Resist energy (cold), Invisibility, Insight of Good Fortune, Owl's Wisdom
2- Wizard
Resist energy (lightning), Swim, Spawn Screen, Insight of Good Fortune
2- Wizard
Resist energy (sonic), Fox's Cunning, See Invisibility, Create Magical Tattoo
1- Wizard
burning rage, ironguts, mage armor, blood wind
1- wizard
mage armor, blood wind, ebon eyes, protection from chaos


There is a projected formula for the turrets, (spell level * caster level * 500 gp) It matches the prices listed in the DMG 2. This means that a level 1 spell turret (theoretically) costs 500 gp. Also, for some reason, expensive material costs don't get factored into the price. (Check the DMG2 examples)

You, sir, are a madman. More importantly, how can we get Raise Dead to fire out of a Spell Turret? Do we need to have Animate Object on ourselves so our dead body is still a creature, so the turrets target us still?

Akal Saris
2009-10-20, 10:46 PM
If it's any consolation Paulus, Curmudgeon's posts always makes me feel defensive too, even when he's critiquing somebody else. I don't think he means any real harm by it though - he's just terribly blunt.

Anyhow, a monk's belt is a good investment for 7th-16th level or so at least, which is a big enough chunk of the game to satisfy me.

My advice if playing a str-based monk: go water orc, get decisive strike from PHBII, and check with your DM if you can swing a quarterstaff 2-handed - if so, that's 2d6+18 damage a hit with maxed strength at 1st level. Decisive Strike also doesn't have the line from Flurry of blows about it not being usable in armor, which could be useful in a build with low dex/wis if the DM lets it pass.

Eldariel
2009-10-20, 10:51 PM
Really? Aren't the skill points worth it?

Well, sorta, but you kinda need Wisdom too so all things being equal, not really. Again, if you have a racial bonus like with Lesser Tiefling, it's different, but just to trade out your Will-save for skill points, 1 feat isn't amazing.

Paulus
2009-10-20, 10:59 PM
If it's any consolation Paulus, Curmudgeon's posts always makes me feel defensive too, even when he's critiquing somebody else. I don't think he means any real harm by it though - he's just terribly blunt.

Anyhow, a monk's belt is a good investment for 7th-16th level or so at least, which is a big enough chunk of the game to satisfy me.

My advice if playing a str-based monk: go water orc, get decisive strike from PHBII, and check with your DM if you can swing a quarterstaff 2-handed - if so, that's 2d6+18 damage a hit with maxed strength at 1st level. Decisive Strike also doesn't have the line from Flurry of blows about it not being usable in armor, which could be useful in a build with low dex/wis if the DM lets it pass.

Meh he calls himself Curmudgeon for a reason. I just don't like arguing with people, especial about a game. Especially when it's my opinion and everything I've said has been working and agreed upon for weeks now. I even asked people on this forum. But he knows his stuff, so it is intimidating for someone who has been around for such a long time to sudden disagree with you, make you feel like you are instantly wrong even if you know what you are doing it right because it has worked thus far and has been agreed upon by others of this very forum. Plus I just don't like people claiming my opinions are nonsense because of their own opinions. Even if they may be correct.

Also, if you're going quarterstaff monk, don't forget to look into the druid spell Shandeigh for enchanting!

imperialspectre
2009-10-20, 11:06 PM
The best way to make a monk, as highlighted above, is Monk/Psychic Warrior or Monk/Ardent with Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona). You take like two levels in Monk (1 for having it and 1 for Evasion), then use Tashalatora to make the psionic class stack for unarmed damage and such. Since your powers will key off of Wisdom, you get a whole lot less MAD trouble.

If you're going Ardent, remember that Ardent powers key off of manifester level, not class level, so Monk 2/Swordsage 4/Ardent + things that progress manifesting 19 with Practiced Manifester still gets you 9th-level powers, and you also get Wisdom to damage whenever you execute a strike. Go Unarmed Swordsage variant so that all of your levels progress monk bonus damage, and consider getting Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Furries) for Wisdom to attack. That makes you reasonably SAD and also quite awesome as a melee combatant. Improved Natural Attack (SRD), along with other methods that have been mentioned in the thread, is nice for increasing your unarmed bonus damage, and finagling an item or casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) on your fists is also awesome.

Alternatively, use the monk that Aethernox wrote for the Penny Dreadfuls' 3.5X project, and avoid all the trouble to begin with. :smallsmile:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-10-20, 11:19 PM
Core is balanced.

*ding*

A Free Monk's Belt to whomever gets the reference.

Telonius
2009-10-20, 11:31 PM
Here's a possibility ...

Dump Constitution, pump Wis and Str.
Get to level 12.
Find a Vampire...:smallamused:

It technically meets the OP's limitations - no PrC or multiclassing, just a template. DR turns into something decent, Monk's Improved Grapple helps out on Blood Drain, alternate form takes care of lack of flight, stat bumps from Vampire give it some very nice bonuses, free feats can help with several things a Monk might want.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-21, 12:40 AM
If templates are the case, see if you can't get away with adding the wight template from Savage species.

Relatively small for a monk. +4 LA gives you retroactive d12 hd and less MAD (say goodbye to your constitution score) Undead immunities, boosts 4 out of your remaining 5 ability scores, and +4 Natural armor. It goes rather well with monk thanks to that notation that reads:

[QUOTE]Attacks: The wight retains all the base creature’s
attacks, and all its natural weapons can deliver its
energy drain special attack./QUOTE]

Combined with some of the undead feats in Libris Mortis, you can create a rather nasty monk. (Improved energy drain/necrotic reserve.)

Curmudgeon
2009-10-21, 02:38 AM
If it's any consolation Paulus, Curmudgeon's posts always makes me feel defensive too, even when he's critiquing somebody else. I don't think he means any real harm by it though - he's just terribly blunt.

Meh he calls himself Curmudgeon for a reason. I just don't like arguing with people, especial about a game.
It seems I've rubbed some people the wrong way. That was not my intention, which is always simply to get to the best possible understanding of the rules, in the most direct way possible.

From a recent news story:

Obama told a town hall meeting in New Hampshire that vigorous debate is an American tradition Perhaps it's my New England heritage showing, but I agree with the President. :smallsmile:

Everyone is free to add house rules to the game to make it more to their liking. However, since very few of us actually game together, we only share the official parts of the rules. It seems to me that if you don't have a good understanding of the RAW, you can't make a good decision about whether it needs changing to suit your own games.

Eldariel
2009-10-21, 02:44 AM
Just becoming UD seems like a fcking horrible plan (at least without desecration+corpsecrafter); you get equivalent of 14 Con HP, but you can never buy Con increases meaning you'll be behind HP by about 2-3xlevel since level 10 or so, and by 18-19 you'll be 4-5xlevel behind. Nice for early-level game except those Templates **** you there anyways.

Paulus
2009-10-21, 02:51 AM
It seems I've rubbed some people the wrong way. That was not my intention, which is always simply to get to the best possible understanding of the rules, in the most direct way possible.

From a recent news story:
Perhaps it's my New England heritage showing, but I agree with the President. :smallsmile:

Everyone is free to add house rules to the game to make it more to their liking. However, since very few of us actually game together, we only share the official parts of the rules. It seems to me that if you don't have a good understanding of the RAW, you can't make a good decision about whether it needs changing to suit your own games.

Understandable. I apologize if I seem to defensive for various stated reasons. However, there are some open to interpretation variables that may or may not work depending on the attitudes of the group and especially the DM... so... while what you state may be vastly more agreed upon, there are other views and thus options. Which I feel should at least be allowed for discussion within the group. And therefore at least anyone made aware of.

and I rarely feel much up to debating rules... It just becomes to much of a hassle for a game. If the Dm sees it one way or another or you yourself the DM see it one way or another, it all works and as long as it's all fun. There you go.

still no harm done, no offense take or intended. I just don't react well to people challenging my opinion. Nobodies fault. but I do seem to find a lot of people who find my opinion to be wrong, entitled to it or not as I may be. And their choice of words admittedly makes me edgy because I can not help but think "are they respecting my opinion and offering a different view? or are they simply stating my opinion is wrong and I must be wrong for thinking there could be some wiggle room or interpretation?" Hard to tell with text. Still no harm no foul! Thank you for the consideration though!

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-21, 03:28 AM
Also, a sparring dummy of the master. Gives 10' steps (as opposed to 5' steps) for monks only.

This brings me an Idea. Is possible to built an elusive bastard?

There are 2 feats allowing a 5-feet step in place of an AOO. If they can stack, you could built a target that cannot be stroke more than once (say, robilars gambit, 20 feet step backward, and so on.

nevertheless, This could combine with psywarrior even better, but maybe keeping more levels of monk. Use Psywar to expansion, lion's charge and the like, monk and feat to avoid be stroke and pounce in the subsequent round.

Keeping on single monk, one could take Dodge (by item in Dungeon Magazine), Mobility, Combat expertise, Karmik Strike, Robilars gamibit, opportunist tactician, sidestep, Elusive target., Combat reflexes (bonus), superior unarmed strike.

Add few flaws, human, and I think you can add few more CR-based feats. I don't know how much is effective but could be fun..

Eldariel
2009-10-21, 03:32 AM
Robilar's Gambit + Side Step is indeed a great tool vs. full attacks. The problem is characters with reach who get next to you to full attack. Of course, the principal issue is that it's very defensive, and again something you cannot bestow upon your friends.

But it definitely is very, very useful against cookie-cutter melee. In fact, it's something many optimizers love using in melee builds vs. other melee-types (one of the favorite defenses right alongside Elusive Target).

Prime32
2009-10-21, 03:44 AM
Just becoming UD seems like a fcking horrible plan (at least without desecration+corpsecrafter); you get equivalent of 14 Con HP, but you can never buy Con increases meaning you'll be behind HP by about 2-3xlevel since level 10 or so, and by 18-19 you'll be 4-5xlevel behind. Nice for early-level game except those Templates **** you there anyways.Stick black sand in your pants. Now you are constantly taking negative energy damage while being surrounded by darkness. Before you become undead take the white dragonspawn template (and buy it off if possible) to get sorcerer spells and a fly speed equal to double your land speed (which qualifies you for Flyby Attack). Base race... elf maybe?

Curmudgeon
2009-10-21, 03:55 AM
Yeah, the only real melee answer to an opponent with reach is to have reach yourself. Serpent Strike will add the longspear to your list of Monk special weapons, though that's hardly an ideal solution. If you do use a 2-handed weapon with adequate reach, though, Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium) let you treat it as constantly readied against a charge.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-21, 05:31 AM
Robilar's Gambit + Side Step is indeed a great tool vs. full attacks. The problem is characters with reach who get next to you to full attack. Of course, the principal issue is that it's very defensive, and again something you cannot bestow upon your friends.

But it definitely is very, very useful against cookie-cutter melee. In fact, it's something many optimizers love using in melee builds vs. other melee-types (one of the favorite defenses right alongside Elusive Target).

Further question: could "double-proc" one of these?

A) Opportunist tactician AND sidestep together after Karmik Strike OR Robilar's Gambit

B) opportunist tactician OR sidestep after KS AND Robilar's Gambit

C) opportunist tactician AND sidestep after KS AND Robilar's Gambit, allowing a 20 feet move.

Who dares answer to me :smalltongue:?

Asheram
2009-10-21, 05:53 AM
Exactly.

Hey there isn't a Pants slot, so who needs em? You can go through your entire career without them.

*coughs* First, talking about pants (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_fdzRuchj0).

Second.

This is nonsense, of course. Shirts (which occupy the Torso body slot) cannot have Bracers of Armor abilities; the Adding/Improving Common Item Effects table in Magic Item Compendium makes that clear.

"Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity." Quoted from the SRD and page 285/288 from the DMG.

[Edit]
Third

A s a Monk reaches 20th level a Monk's Belt will not provide any benefit, since their abilities do not increase past that point.

Half-true. He still get the stunning fist bonus and the +1 ac from the belt.

Myrmex
2009-10-21, 06:05 AM
Stick black sand in your pants. Now you are constantly taking negative energy damage while being surrounded by darkness. Before you become undead take the white dragonspawn template (and buy it off if possible) to get sorcerer spells and a fly speed equal to double your land speed (which qualifies you for Flyby Attack). Base race... elf maybe?

Dragonspawn turns your type to Monstrous Humanoid which leaves you ineligible for the Necropolitan template.


Yeah, the only real melee answer to an opponent with reach is to have reach yourself. Serpent Strike will add the longspear to your list of Monk special weapons, though that's hardly an ideal solution. If you do use a 2-handed weapon with adequate reach, though, Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium) let you treat it as constantly readied against a charge.

What about a potion of enlarge? Not enough vs. an ogre with a spiked chain?

riddles
2009-10-21, 06:20 AM
The best way to make a monk, as highlighted above, is Monk/Psychic Warrior or Monk/Ardent with Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona). You take like two levels in Monk (1 for having it and 1 for Evasion), then use Tashalatora to make the psionic class stack for unarmed damage and such. Since your powers will key off of Wisdom, you get a whole lot less MAD trouble.

If you're going Ardent, remember that Ardent powers key off of manifester level, not class level, so Monk 2/Swordsage 4/Ardent + things that progress manifesting 19 with Practiced Manifester still gets you 9th-level powers, and you also get Wisdom to damage whenever you execute a strike. Go Unarmed Swordsage variant so that all of your levels progress monk bonus damage, and consider getting Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Furries) for Wisdom to attack. That makes you reasonably SAD and also quite awesome as a melee combatant. Improved Natural Attack (SRD), along with other methods that have been mentioned in the thread, is nice for increasing your unarmed bonus damage, and finagling an item or casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) on your fists is also awesome.


i would prefer Ardent for massive increase in power points you get over psychic warrior. but getting expansion is such a faceache - either spend one of your (limited) feat slots on a level 1 power or spend the time to research it in game which with some DMs is incredibly difficult.

Amphetryon
2009-10-21, 06:54 AM
Some straight Monk options:

1. Use a Dragonborn of Bahamut (Wings) Mongrelfolk. +6 (!) CON bonus in exchange for extremely stunted social development and minor hits to DEX and INT, where STR and WIS are more important. On 32 points, your stats can now read: 16 13 14 10 16 4, ample for a Monk in most cases, and have a Glide speed that improves as you level, eliminating one of your major mobility issues as a Monk.

2. Beg, whine, plead, bribe with cookies, or blackmail your DM into allowing Flaws, which you'll use for Shaky and one of the -3 Save Flaws, since you have all good Saves. Use Serpent Fang (Sandstorm), Hidden Talent (grabs Expansion), and Martial Study for Clinging Shadow Strike (or Sudden Leap) in addition to Stunning Fist. Between Serpent Fang and Expansion, your reach is now useful, and Clinging Shadow Strike improves damage while simultaneously debuffing your opponent, and opening the door for Assassin's Strike later. If you took Sudden Leap instead, you're heading into decent multi-pouncer options.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-21, 07:00 AM
Taking Clinging Shadow Strike also opens up the possibility of some Shadow Blade Martial Stance and then the Shadow Blade feat, potentially relieving a lot of MAD by eliminating any dependence on Str...

Eldariel
2009-10-21, 11:35 AM
Further question: could "double-proc" one of these?

A) Opportunist tactician AND sidestep together after Karmik Strike OR Robilar's Gambit

B) opportunist tactician OR sidestep after KS AND Robilar's Gambit

C) opportunist tactician AND sidestep after KS AND Robilar's Gambit, allowing a 20 feet move.

Who dares answer to me :smalltongue:?

You're missing Evasive Reflexes. Alright, covering all:

A: Sidestep gives you 5' step if you take AoO, as does Opportunist Tactician so if you take the AoO, you can take 2 5' steps. Otherwise Evasive Reflexes allows you to replace AoO with 5' step.

B: Sidestep can only be used once per down so either-or. Opportunist Tactician has unlimited uses though, meaning you get to move before the attack as per Robilar's Gambit and if the attack still hits, afterwards with Karmic Strike.

C: Well, Sidestep says no and the attack has to hit after 10' movement for you to trigger Karmic Strike, but yeah.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-21, 11:39 AM
When the board cowers in fear before my fine prints, Eldariel answers! :smallwink:

Thank you!

*bows*

Paulus
2009-10-21, 01:27 PM
May want to go Gauntlets/ki wraps of Divine Power instead if you are going for a Str, instead of a Dex, monk. You'll have to ask your Dm about the temp Hp though, personally I wouldn't bother with it. Continuous at it's lowest level to spare price is 4, that's not much temp hp. But you can argue for it if you wanted.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-21, 03:23 PM
Just becoming UD seems like a fcking horrible plan (at least without desecration+corpsecrafter); you get equivalent of 14 Con HP, but you can never buy Con increases meaning you'll be behind HP by about 2-3xlevel since level 10 or so, and by 18-19 you'll be 4-5xlevel behind. Nice for early-level game except those Templates **** you there anyways.

Wight template with Improved Energy drain: Every successful hit on a living creature gives you temp hp and a bonus to all skill/ability/attack/saving throws. the longer the fight goes, the nastier you get. I've played a monk/wight/tattooed monk to GREAT effect before.(the switch to Tat.monk gives you access to some decent features that you'd be unable to access to the same degree going straight monk, while weeding out a lot of useless abilities) Improved toughness is also a good stopgap to keep that HP growing,

Indon
2009-10-21, 04:17 PM
Core is balanced.

*ding*

A Free Monk's Belt to whomever gets the reference.

If your monk wasn't the one that got free flight from this *takes his belt*, I might recommend getting your Necklace of Natural Attacks enchanted with the Throwing and Distance enchantments.

Since, as a Monk, your entire body is a weapon, the Throwing enhancement grants you the ability to throw yourself up to 50 feet as a single attack - 100 feet with the Distance property. Since a Monk can flurry thrown weapons so long as they're Monk weapons, and their unarmed strike is a Monk weapon, you can flurry throw-yourself into combat, allowing you to make a full attack every round - and, if you want to escape easy reach, just spend your last attack ranged-sundering the ground 100 feet away!

...okay, so this might be a bit too cheesy to be in some campaigns. Hopefully, the awesomeness factor can counter some of that.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-21, 04:26 PM
Since, as a Monk, your entire body is a weapon, the Throwing enhancement grants you the ability to throw yourself up to 50 feet as a single attack - 100 feet with the Distance property.
No, it's rather more colorful than that.
Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon So you can use a head butt with throwing and returning. Only your head needs to go flying around the battlefield. :smalleek:

Starbuck_II
2009-10-21, 04:29 PM
Street Fighter? That Hindu guy did that. He also breathed fire, but maybe he was a Dragonborn with a hat of illusion.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-21, 04:40 PM
Street Fighter? That Hindu guy did that. He also breathed fire, but maybe he was a Dragonborn with a hat of illusion.

Dhalsim Wins! Fatality!

Eldariel
2009-10-21, 04:44 PM
Street Fighter? That Hindu guy did that. He also breathed fire, but maybe he was a Dragonborn with a hat of illusion.

It's Yoga. And he's not an alien! He'll tell you as much (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQ66UbiyNo).

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 04:47 PM
If your monk wasn't the one that got free flight from this *takes his belt*, I might recommend getting your Necklace of Natural Attacks enchanted with the Throwing and Distance enchantments.

Since, as a Monk, your entire body is a weapon, the Throwing enhancement grants you the ability to throw yourself up to 50 feet as a single attack - 100 feet with the Distance property. Since a Monk can flurry thrown weapons so long as they're Monk weapons, and their unarmed strike is a Monk weapon, you can flurry throw-yourself into combat, allowing you to make a full attack every round - and, if you want to escape easy reach, just spend your last attack ranged-sundering the ground 100 feet away!

...okay, so this might be a bit too cheesy to be in some campaigns. Hopefully, the awesomeness factor can counter some of that.

Wait, you get to teleport around next to your opponents, flurry strike opponents at blazing speed without doing damage, teleport away, and then talk as a free action?

This proves it: D&D is secretly DBZ.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-21, 04:59 PM
Wait, you get to teleport around next to your opponents, flurry strike opponents at blazing speed without doing damage, teleport away, and then talk as a free action?

This proves it: D&D is secretly DBZ.

Well, there are over nine thousand source books...

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 05:11 PM
IT'S... 1006. GO GET 'IM, NAPPA!

Indon
2009-10-21, 08:29 PM
Wait, you get to teleport around next to your opponents, flurry strike opponents at blazing speed without doing damage, teleport away, and then talk as a free action?

This proves it: D&D is secretly DBZ.

You can also move abnormally fast by rapidly ranged sundering at your max range - essentially, leap-running Naruto style.

Edit: You know, maybe DBZ is secretly D&D. If all the characters were monks, that would explain:

A: Why the fights all take so long to finish.
B: Why the LA races have an advantage.
C: The Krillin Owned Count.

elonin
2009-10-21, 10:06 PM
In a game I was playing someone played a were-bear monk with a vow of poverty.

riddles
2009-10-22, 02:06 PM
if you can buy off LA, that's not a bad idea. add in warshaper for size increases.

elonin
2009-10-22, 06:01 PM
When I saw that I think 2 LA were given free or none. In either case the stat bumps were enogh to make up for the missing monk levels.