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Mastikator
2009-10-20, 11:17 PM
Beards or no beards? What do you think?

Personally I want to say optional, some women do, some don't. The ones that do often don't have as much as the dwarf men, but it's at least not viewed as unfeminine by dwarven standards. And the ones that don't, don't lack because they shave, but simply because it doesn't grow.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-20, 11:18 PM
Different campaign setings have tings differently, but Races of Stone says that they do not.

hiryuu
2009-10-20, 11:28 PM
http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/gaias_hiccup/dwarves.jpg

No beards.

Asbestos
2009-10-20, 11:54 PM
And the faces of little girls?

Godskook
2009-10-20, 11:57 PM
Of the two girls, the short one is a dwarf. (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/289)

Ravens_cry
2009-10-20, 11:59 PM
Beards, but not moustaches. At least in a story I am working on.
We got to do something to distinguish dwarves from gun-toting,Scottish, chibi, Vikings.

Atcote
2009-10-21, 12:03 AM
I go by the concept that they do have beards, but they're generally smoother and silkier than male beards (much more like extended hair on their faces). A player, however, did not like this concept as his character had a 'dwarf fetish' (I have a feeling that he did this to annoy me, because I normally do not have very much character sex in my campaigns at all), so I gave them an option that, in some cultures (ones that are integrated with other races mostly), some of the dwarven women shave them off.

Edit: I should further mention his character was a goliath. It'd be like making love to a hairy, multi-limbed leg.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 12:04 AM
Beards, but not moustaches. At least in a story I am working on.
We got to do something to distinguish dwarves from gun-toting,Scottish, chibi, Vikings.

What if that's what we want, chibi vikings?

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 12:10 AM
What if that's what we want, chibi vikings?
Well, if that's what you want. I just think that each race should be more inhuman than that.
Of course, in this story, Elves are stuck in the 70's fashion wise, expect afro's, and elves and goblins are the off-splits of two different aspects of a single species.

Atcote
2009-10-21, 12:14 AM
What a useful topic to come up! [http://au.games.ign.com/articles/103/1036752p1.html (http://au.games.ign.com/articles/103/1036752p1.html)

Starscream
2009-10-21, 12:31 AM
No beards in general, but the ones in Dragonlance tend to have some hair on their cheeks.

Innis Cabal
2009-10-21, 12:33 AM
Of the two girls, the short one is a dwarf. (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/289)

The other is a dude :smallwink:

The Tygre
2009-10-21, 12:37 AM
Hmm... Personally, I do find something rather interesting about the bearded dwarf women in 2nd edition, or at least my copy of Demihuman Deities. Each race has a particular style and grooming, and the women do appear to take great pains in making sure their beards are properly trimmed, conditioned, and smooth, much like their hair. However, I must say 'un-bearded' in general for various...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/lom_gallery/88091.jpg

...reasons. Maybe it's somewhere in between? Maybe dwarf women can grow beards but it's more or less considered taboo by most dwarves, so they shave for tradition's sake.

Wooter
2009-10-21, 12:43 AM
Dwarf women don't usually grow beards. However, sometimes if she feels like she isn't getting enough respect, a Dwarf woman will grow one by sheer force of will.

Atcote
2009-10-21, 12:49 AM
Maybe dwarf women can grow beards but it's more or less considered taboo by most dwarves, so they shave for tradition's sake.

I can believe this; I mean, it's what we do.

Sploosh
2009-10-21, 12:50 AM
Maybe it's somewhere in between? Maybe dwarf women can grow beards but it's more or less considered taboo by most dwarves, so they shave for tradition's sake.

I think this makes the most sense. Dwarf women seem like they handle the amounts of testosterone needed to develop cheeckwarmers but it would really depend on your culture's outlook if showing them would be right.

Perhaps a beard is a sign of independence or pride and most male dwarves have a chauvenistic outlook on it?

Perhaps a dwarfette shaves to provide kissability and make them look like those dwarfs on the magazines with the humans.

Maybe they are just European? Kidding of course!

Berserk Monk
2009-10-21, 12:50 AM
Beards or no beards? What do you think?

Personally I want to say optional, some women do, some don't. The ones that do often don't have as much as the dwarf men, but it's at least not viewed as unfeminine by dwarven standards. And the ones that don't, don't lack because they shave, but simply because it doesn't grow.

Some human females are capable of growing facial hair (beards, mustaches) so yeah dwarves could, but to avoid tired stereotypes, do yourself a favor and don't have them with beards.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 12:56 AM
Some human females are capable of growing facial hair (beards, mustaches) so yeah dwarves could, but to avoid tired stereotypes, do yourself a favor and don't have them with beards.
How is that a 'tired stereotype'? True, Tolkien did it, but it is one trait most of his er. . . 'benefactors' avoid, at least at present.

Godskook
2009-10-21, 01:11 AM
The other is a dude :smallwink:

I think Richard would know better than you. (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/121)

sambo.
2009-10-21, 01:16 AM
i'd go with the Terry Pratchett, DiscWorld theory:

Dwarf women have beards the same as the men, they dress the same and generally act the same.

a large part of the dwarven courtship rituals involve delicate and circumspect inquiries to attempt to discover the sex of the object of affection.

Starscream
2009-10-21, 01:16 AM
Dwarf women don't usually grow beards. However, sometimes if she feels like she isn't getting enough respect, a Dwarf woman will grow one by sheer force of will.

Like Gordito from Dr. McNinja? I like that explanation.

Tam_OConnor
2009-10-21, 01:21 AM
Dwarf....women. Women...dwarves? I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Are you implying that there are dwarf women? Don't be silly! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously: No beards on my dwarf women. Polygamous, though. And with an ideal measurements where shoulder width equals height.

Paulus
2009-10-21, 01:55 AM
beards? no. But mutton chops? eyebrows that grow so long they merge into their hair (but not a unibrow) or even braided side burns? Yes. That I could see. It could even be cute.

The way to distinguish is the chin. If it's bare, the lass is fair, if it's hair, don't go there.

of course, a woman with a smooth soul patch... possibly... but no 'stashes, or goatees.

Sure, why not?

[img] No beards.

Also, those look like halflings to me. Because they look like children. Dwarves of any gender are brrrrooooaaaddd of shoulder, and sturdy. They're just crazy sexy cool.

...child like faces are a bit disturbing on such defined bodies, but you get use to it in anime styling. It could be very much so worse.

In any case, cue pic.

jmbrown
2009-10-21, 02:17 AM
Some human females are capable of growing facial hair (beards, mustaches) so yeah dwarves could, but to avoid tired stereotypes, do yourself a favor and don't have them with beards.

No, it's a tired stereotype that fantasy races are modeled after human standards. You look at the art of D&D since the original boxed edition and you'll notice an ever increasing modernization in female character design. Women, regardless of race, must be shorter, slender, and wear revealing clothing that accentuates their prominent bosoms.

Is it wrong? No, the artists are just giving what the dominantly male target audience wants but it really detracts from the flavor of the world when you realize that the difference between, say, a human and another humanoid are never cosmetic. You can always tell a female humanoid apart regardless of race because she'll be the one with the curvaceous hips and large cleavage sticking out of the V cut in her full plate mail.

My dwarf chicks don't have beards in the sense that a man's can completely mask their entire skin. If left unchecked they do grow soft, fine hair on their face similar to arm or leg hair. It's never enough to notice from a distance more than 30' feet away but if you were standing right in front of them you could tell.

Set
2009-10-21, 02:19 AM
Depends on the community. Dwarves with lots of exposure to other cultures might get used to seeing clean-shaven women of other races and react in one of two ways; 1) adapting to what everyone else is doing and buy the missus a razor, 2) react against what the 'other races' are doing and be even more prone to keep their bearded ladies.

I like the idea of going halfway, with dwarven women having prodigious sideburns, often long enough to braid along with the scalplocks, but shaving any hair on the upper lip and chin.

I had no idea that Tolkein had bearded dwarven women. I had no idea that Tolkein introduced the concept of dwarven women at all, given that there was like one elven female in the entire world (named Galadrial) and one human female worthy of having her own name (named Eowyn) and one hobbit female on the planet, who didn't even get speaking lines (named 'that barmaid Samwise married 'cause Frodo dumped him')...

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 02:20 AM
*Ahem*

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9075/10019984.jpg

Raltar
2009-10-21, 02:24 AM
There are no dwarf women. Only dwarf men. And I'm not even sure you can call them men. More like boys.

taltamir
2009-10-21, 02:28 AM
Of the two girls, the short one is a dwarf. (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/289)

and the tall one is a male elf. :)

I also say no beards.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-21, 02:32 AM
OD&D said beards; I think I'll stick with the classics.

Personally though, I like the suggestion of them shaving their beards to fit in with other races.

As for that pic. from BOVD, isn't that just a human?

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 02:34 AM
OD&D said beards; I think I'll stick with the classics.

Personally though, I like the suggestion of them shaving their beards to fit in with other races.

As for that pic. from BOVD, isn't that just a human?

*Scratches head* Maybe I meant to link someone else. Lemme look.

Huh. Well, I think I may have meant to link a different picture, but I can't find it. In either case, no beards and ample curves for all!

karnokoto
2009-10-21, 02:39 AM
I don't think dwarf females would have beards. I mean sure, they've got a little more testosterone than your average human female, but not a crazy amount.
Then again...some human females have a smattering of a moustache (ick).
Okay, lets put it this way:

Dwarf females who live in almost 100% dwarven communities may have beards. It could very well be a sign of empowerment for a dwarven female.
Adventuring dwarven females, or females that come into contact with the less fuzzy races on a regular basis may shave or simply not grow beards to gain their companions and NPCs respect.

I don't like how a lot of art shows dwarven females with really broad shoulders. Thats masculine stuff. Dwarf females should have huge hips, not huge shoulders. And very thick bodies. Not fat, just muscled with a thin layer of chub. The one picture posted above does a pretty good job of that, although if I were to draw one I'd probably do em with a rounder face shape than that.

Athaniar
2009-10-21, 02:44 AM
Are we sure there are even dwarf males? Perhaps the entire dwarven race is an epic illusion created and maintained by epic gnome illusionists? Bet you've never thought of that before.

Cracklord
2009-10-21, 02:45 AM
I had no idea that Tolkein had bearded dwarven women. I had no idea that Tolkein introduced the concept of dwarven women at all, given that there was like one elven female in the entire world (named Galadrial) and one human female worthy of having her own name (named Eowyn) and one hobbit female on the planet, who didn't even get speaking lines (named 'that barmaid Samwise married 'cause Frodo dumped him')...

listen, Pal, don't go there.

First up, Rosie got plenty of dialogue. Only you might have to read the books.
Second, i could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Arwen was female. I'm sure you'd know better then me.

Tinuviel was female, too. Course she was in the Simirillion, where these concepts were explored. And finally, there was a war going on. Most cultures don't involve their women in the actual battles.

And the whole Frodo Sam gay thing is past it's point of use. You can think of something original, you're better then that.

Are we sure there are even dwarf males? Perhaps the entire dwarven race is an epic illusion created and maintained by epic gnome illusionists? Bet you've never thought of that before.

The gnomes were paid a godly amount to sign over their racial history. Through use of false beards, they produced the dwarves, to double their income.

And incidentally, Dwarven women look like this:



Behold, our hero!
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8628/punchy.jpg

Akisa
2009-10-21, 05:25 AM
Are we sure there are even dwarf males? Perhaps the entire dwarven race is an epic illusion created and maintained by epic gnome illusionists? Bet you've never thought of that before.

Men after him!!!

Haarkla
2009-10-21, 07:42 AM
What about having different dwarven (sub)races, one with beards, one without.
Instead of dividing themselves on the colour of their skin (like humans) they differenciate themselves on the beardedness (or otherwise) of their women.

I much prefer the beardless female dwarves in Hiryuus picture than the one in looking for group comic.

In my world no dwarf would ever shave, even a female one.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-21, 07:45 AM
Man, no. Artic ones could be more hairy, but for a woman.

Sometimes you take the tradition and throw it away. The point is understand when is the case, or you are throwing away the soul of the...

Nevermind. Anyway, no beard for females Dwarves.

robgrayert
2009-10-21, 07:54 AM
Is this seriously what you want your dwarf women to look like?
http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg

No beards, if you ask me.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 07:57 AM
No. No No No. There's a reason that the only real references to bearded dwarves come from what is quite possibly a joke referring to an in-universe racial stereotype (the tolkein one) and a deliberately silly (though as often as possible internally consistent) series of books.

Finely Moustachiod Dwarven ladies, with ribbons in their long, silky, flowing beards is awesome and hilarious in Discworld.

And a racial slur anywhere else. :P

Grumman
2009-10-21, 08:08 AM
And a racial slur anywhere else. :P
That's exactly how I'd treat it. It's the sort of thing you tell a dwarf if you want to start a bar brawl.

That said, I'd like to take this opportunity to share the only good Lord of the Rings romance fanfic (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2539714/1/The_Heads_of_One_Thousand_Goblins_A_Love_Story).

bosssmiley
2009-10-21, 08:59 AM
Pratchett says beards, Tolkien hinted the same. Did you honestly think the names Fili (short for Felicity), Kili (pron: Keeley), Ori, Dori, and Nori were guy names?

"Like a bit o' beard on a woman: gives you something to hang onto!"

http://www.caberworld.com/images/new_art/cheery_littlebottom450.jpg

All those 'dwarven' women with no facial hair are just big, fat halflings or short, fat humans. :smalltongue:

Dogmantra
2009-10-21, 09:05 AM
<disturbing image>

You can't unsee it!

Just for that picture, I'd have to say absolutely not.

Shademan
2009-10-21, 09:05 AM
sideburns only, I say

Bayar
2009-10-21, 09:10 AM
I like the approach the guys from NCSoft had with dwarves in Lineage 2:

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens2003011module11624253photo_1221899223Sal amanderSkin_Dwarf.jpg

Males: fat, beardy Santa Clauss rip-offs
Females: cute lolis

Zovc
2009-10-21, 09:17 AM
I like the approach the guys from NCSoft had with dwarves in Lineage 2:

[img]

Males: fat, beardy Santa Clauss rip-offs
Females: cute lolis

Meh, those ladies are a little too cute (aka skinny) for my image of dwarves.

I'd also expect most men to have longer beards than that.

Ormagoden
2009-10-21, 09:28 AM
"Like a bit o' beard on a woman: gives you something to hang onto!"


Took long enough!

Telonius
2009-10-21, 09:40 AM
Pratchett says beards, Tolkien hinted the same. Did you honestly think the names Fili (short for Felicity), Kili (pron: Keeley), Ori, Dori, and Nori were guy names?

I don't have the book on me right now, but when Thorin, Fili, Kili, and Bilbo go into Lake-town, Thorin introduces Fili and Kili as his sister's sons. Thorin could have been lying (or maybe it's polite for dwarves to call everybody male), but it is explicitly stated.

I knew a guy named Ory back in college, so that's a plausibly male name. Tolkien did model Dwarvish speech (Khudzul) after Semitic languages, and my college friend was very much Jewish.

Cyclocone
2009-10-21, 09:53 AM
Well, the fluff always talks about how losing your beard is some kind of huuuge humiliation if you're a dorf.

I, for one, have always wondered why exactly that is; and this thread got me thinking: maybe dwarven civilisation is like prison?
Now, hear me out! Dwarven mines are generally cut off from the surrounding world, right? and they're full of rowdy, foulmouthed hooligans who never shower, right?

So -maybe- just like in prison, there's no women! Then the dwarves would ofcourse develop certain... urges over time. So -maybe- they created sort of a hierachy. Like, if you have a huge beard, you get to be top-dog; but if you lose your beard, you get to be someone elses bitch.

Makes total sense, right? ...right??

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 10:00 AM
Well, the fluff always talks about how losing your beard is some kind of huuuge humiliation if you're a dorf.

I, for one, have always wondered why exactly that is; and this thread got me thinking: maybe dwarven civilisation is like prison?
Now, hear me out! Dwarven mines are generally cut off from the surrounding world, right? and they're full of rowdy, foulmouthed hooligans who never shower, right?

So -maybe- just like in prison, there's no women! Then the dwarves would ofcourse develop certain... urges over time. So -maybe- they created sort of a hierachy. Like, if you have a huge beard, you get to be top-dog; but if you lose your beard, you get to be someone elses bitch.

Makes total sense, right? ...right??

aha. Ahaha. Aha. Yeeeeah. It makes some sense. BUT only to a race has female members without beards. Do you see? :)
Beware the all-male dwarven settlement, I guess, if you don't have a full chin of fuzz!

[edit] Think about it. All dwarf men. ALL of them, have beards. Usually quite long, impressive ones. It's a totemic representation of their manly dwarflyness.

Wouldn't the shame of losing a beard make much more sense if not having a beard was practically one of the primary sexual characteristics of a lady-dwarf? It would be pretty close to castrating the poor fellow! Literally, by shaving the dwarves beard, you have all but made him a woman.

Cyclocone
2009-10-21, 10:03 AM
Beware the all-male dwarven settlement, I guess, if you don't have a full chin of fuzz!

Why do you think the dwarf/elf enmity exists?:smallwink:

Bayar
2009-10-21, 10:12 AM
Why do you think the dwarf/elf enmity exists?:smallwink:

So now the reason dwarf-elf antipathy is because of sexism ? Wow.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 10:14 AM
So now the reason dwarf-elf antipathy is because of sexism ? Wow.

No. The dwarf elf antipathy is the result of a drunken encounter and an elven lack of a sense of humour about such things. ;)

Suprise buttsex!

Glyde
2009-10-21, 10:16 AM
I like the approach the guys from NCSoft had with dwarves in Lineage 2:

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens2003011module11624253photo_1221899223Sal amanderSkin_Dwarf.jpg

Males: fat, beardy Santa Clauss rip-offs
Females: cute lolis

Look like halfling females to me...

Anywho, I'm with the 'no-beard' group. But it *does* depend on the setting.

Ernir
2009-10-21, 10:22 AM
Pratchett says beards, Tolkien hinted the same. Did you honestly think the names Fili (short for Felicity), Kili (pron: Keeley), Ori, Dori, and Nori were guy names?

Well, Fili and Kili at least are straight from the Prophecy of the Völva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1), and the i's are ordinary masculine endings, so... :smalltongue:

Miklus
2009-10-21, 10:46 AM
How about female dwarves shave their beards until they get married and then just let it grow? Some human females have been known to do the same...

There are usually more male dwarves than female, right? So polygamy makes sense. A female dwarf could have 3 or even as many as 7 or 9 husbands!

I also like they idea of shaving as a punishment for male dwarves. Maybe for cowadice, as in "You fight like a little girl, now you look like a little girl!"

The poor dwarf would probably be so ashamed as to wander off and never show his face to the clan again. Or it could be part of the punishment: "Go away and don't come back until your beard is a least two feet long!" A punishment would not be measured in years, but in inches.

Maybe that is what all the dwarves in human lands are doing. They are criminals waiting for their beards to grow longer.

Guinea Anubis
2009-10-21, 10:56 AM
I my self, in my games say this.

Dwarven women can grow beards and its not a bad thing in there culture, in fact its a good thing. Dwarves think that it shows how tuff they are and what good sons they will have. The only dwarven women that do shave are the ones that have been around humans a lot and have in there heads ideas about looking feminine.

Lysander
2009-10-21, 11:11 AM
This is all based on the steryotype that all Dwarf men have beards. And have scottish accents. The dwarven beard is treated more like a organ than a fashion/social choice. Dragons have scales, elves pointy ears, dwarves beards. But you know who also has beards? Humans! If you visited a time when beards were common, say a mining town in frontier America, and saw a bunch of men with beards would you assume that human women look exactly the same? There's no reason to assume that dwarf women don't exist or are born with a full chin of hair. Are they also born with a helm and a battle axe?

That said, this is fantasy so do whatever you want. Discworld's idea of every dwarf pretending to be male is pretty hilarious.

Hazkali
2009-10-21, 11:26 AM
I like the idea that there are no female dwarves. Dwarves mate with one or more other races; if the offspring is male, it is a dwarf, if female, the other race. It works particularly well if the other race is all-female.

If I have to choose, I would go beards, but not in the OTT way that the Discworld defines it. There should be anatomical differences (breasts, hips etc) enough to distinguish. I quite like BossSmiley's image, that is what I mean.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 11:49 AM
Do elf women have beards?
What about goblin women?
Orc women?
Giant women?

Not in my fantasies.

amidoingitrite?

Godskook
2009-10-21, 11:55 AM
Edna Mode would say the same thing about dwarven beards as she does about a hero's cape. No beards.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 12:01 PM
And incidentally, Dwarven women look like this:

Why does that look like Kliff Undersn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuiltyGear)?

Pika...
2009-10-21, 12:26 PM
Different campaign setings have tings differently, but Races of Stone says that they do not.

What he said.

In my homebrewed cosmology they have beards, and are virtually indistinguishable from males. Even male dwarves sometimes aren't sure.

Also, halflings have furry feet and do not need shoes (and are treated as wearing some for things like cantrops).


http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv115/gaias_hiccup/dwarves.jpg

No beards.


And the faces of little girls?

What he said. Those are not dwarves. :smallconfused:

Not anime inspired my behind.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-21, 12:36 PM
i'd go with the Terry Pratchett, DiscWorld theory:

Dwarf women have beards the same as the men, they dress the same and generally act the same.

a large part of the dwarven courtship rituals involve delicate and circumspect inquiries to attempt to discover the sex of the object of affection.

Would that make Dwarf women who shave their beards slutty in dwarven culture, according to Terry Pratchett?

Pika...
2009-10-21, 12:43 PM
Would that make Dwarf women who shave their beards slutty in dwarven culture, according to Terry Pratchett?

Thank you.

I am stealing that. :smallbiggrin:

WalkingTarget
2009-10-21, 12:45 PM
Would that make Dwarf women who shave their beards slutty in dwarven culture, according to Terry Pratchett?

It would be more like them being "not Dwarves". Even Cheery (the most feminine of the ones we've really gotten a look at) would never consider that. The beard isn't related to gender roles for them.

Then there's Casanunda, but he's about as unDwarfish as they get anyway.

Project_Mayhem
2009-10-21, 12:45 PM
Do elf women have beards?
What about goblin women?
Orc women?
Giant women?

Not in my fantasies.

amidoingitrite?

I'm gonna take the liberty of assuming you mean 'fantasy settings' ...

please?

Mewtarthio
2009-10-21, 12:51 PM
Actually, dwarves exhibit an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism. Most surface races ignorantly refer to dwarven females as "cave trolls."

Pika...
2009-10-21, 12:54 PM
Actually, dwarves exhibit an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism. Most surface races ignorantly refer to dwarven females as "cave trolls."

Hmm...

Where is that reference from?

It seems like an idea which would add a lot of flavor and uniqueness/creativity to a DM's world.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-21, 02:00 PM
I am of the school that Dwarf women do NOT have breads but instead rock some pretty bad ass sideburns and bushier eyebrows. . .

i also imagine they vary as wildly as any other race in cultural standards. some cultures would go bushier than others some would go for refined grooming ect.

But i stand firm by the bare chin (if nothing else) concept.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 02:14 PM
I'm gonna take the liberty of assuming you mean 'fantasy settings' ...

please?

I think you see what I did there... >.>

Rixx
2009-10-21, 02:16 PM
Big ol' curly feminine mutton chops.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 02:17 PM
Maybe something like this.
http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg

sonofzeal
2009-10-21, 02:26 PM
Your picture doesn't work for us, Ravens_cry.

Asbestos
2009-10-21, 02:28 PM
Maybe something like this.
http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg

STOP POSTING THAT!!!! Please.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 02:37 PM
STOP POSTING THAT!!!! Please.

Agreed. It's like looking at an Irish man who had a sex change and never shaved.


No offense to actual Irish men out there. That art piece is just not attractive.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 02:37 PM
Maybe something like this.
[img]

That's the second time we see that. :(

Zombimode
2009-10-21, 02:39 PM
One question out of curiosity, to the people who object to the bearded dwarf women:

What is exactly the problem? Do you somehow feel uncomfortable?

Paulus
2009-10-21, 02:44 PM
One question out of curiosity, to the people who object to the bearded dwarf women:

What is exactly the problem? Do you somehow feel uncomfortable?

I just think it's too easy a cultural hand out. All dwarfs have beards! It lacks depth. It's almost always considered a 'joke' "can't tell them apart" "Even their women grow beards." etc.

Whereas with mutton chops, braided sideburns and long eyebrows, you have something akin to cultural respect for facial hair that speaks to a differential of the sexes and a flare of flavorful description and differences, not in jest, but enjoyed. It can be attractive in my mind, rife with reason and cultural significance, and outright 'out-standing' among the other races.

Such as how halflings should all have furry feet.
Such as how Elves never grow any facial hair. Or down there hair if you know what I mean.
It's simply a matter of preference for my fantasy races to have more to them than, all look like short humans with beards, or humans with pointy ears, or short humans with furry feet. There has got to be more variety! Otherwise why bother with them? the bonuses? Why not just say your character is a short human, or a short human with a long beard, or a human with pointy ears. It's gotta be cultural and cosmetic if you ask me.

But that's just me.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 02:46 PM
STOP POSTING THAT!!!! Please.
*shrugs* I am not saying I find her attractive, but why should I? I am a human, that is a dwarf. More then two different races, they are usually, as much as this has meaning in fantasy, two different species. Why should there not be differances that each side finds repulsive? In a world with bearded lady dwarves, maybe they find, besides being too tall and skinny, human womenfolk to be too prepubescent, a beard being a biological sign of womanhood. Some shave, some don't.
These are aliens, for crying out loud. Shouldn't they be. . .alien?

ErrantX
2009-10-21, 02:47 PM
I find it mildly troubling that this is one of the most popular threads today.

Also, no beards, maybe some muttonchop action going on.

-X

Zombimode
2009-10-21, 03:04 PM
It's simply a matter of preference for my fantasy races to have more to them than, all look like short humans with beards, or humans with pointy ears, or short humans with furry feet. There has got to be more variety! Otherwise why bother with them? the bonuses? Why not just say your character is a short human, or a short human with a long beard, or a human with pointy ears. It's gotta be cultural and cosmetic if you ask me.

Thank you for your response but you came from the wrong side of the argument :smalltongue:
I agree entirely with your reasoning. But I was more interessted to hear why some people prefer their dwarven women to look like the posted "fire dancers" or the lineage II dwarfs :smallamused:

Zovc
2009-10-21, 03:25 PM
These are aliens, for crying out loud. Shouldn't they be. . .alien?

I'm asking why aliens have to not be attractive. :O

Paulus
2009-10-21, 03:27 PM
Thank you for your response but you came from the wrong side of the argument :smalltongue:
I agree entirely with your reasoning. But I was more interessted to hear why some people prefer their dwarven women to look like the posted "fire dancers" or the lineage II dwarfs :smallamused:

Because they are just short women (with huge eyeballs) therefore naturally far more easily found attractive then any other a'skewed view of cultural attraction.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 03:28 PM
i'd go with the Terry Pratchett, DiscWorld theory:

Dwarf women have beards the same as the men, they dress the same and generally act the same.

a large part of the dwarven courtship rituals involve delicate and circumspect inquiries to attempt to discover the sex of the object of affection.

I'm gonna have to go with Gimli on this one. The reason it seems like you never see any dwarf women is because they look like dwarf men.

Incidentally this is also why you never sea any half-dwarves. Other races abstain out of FEAR.

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 03:29 PM
How about female dwarves shave their beards until they get married and then just let it grow? Some human females have been known to do the same...

There are usually more male dwarves than female, right? So polygamy makes sense. A female dwarf could have 3 or even as many as 7 or 9 husbands!

I also like they idea of shaving as a punishment for male dwarves. Maybe for cowadice, as in "You fight like a little girl, now you look like a little girl!"

The poor dwarf would probably be so ashamed as to wander off and never show his face to the clan again. Or it could be part of the punishment: "Go away and don't come back until your beard is a least two feet long!" A punishment would not be measured in years, but in inches.

Maybe that is what all the dwarves in human lands are doing. They are criminals waiting for their beards to grow longer.

Dwarves stick with a single partner for life, and it's not uncommon for male dwarves to have romantic friendships with each other. Lesbians, however, are treated with suspicion unless a war is going on and there's a shortage of men.


This is all based on the steryotype that all Dwarf men have beards. And have scottish accents. The dwarven beard is treated more like a organ than a fashion/social choice. Dragons have scales, elves pointy ears, dwarves beards. But you know who also has beards? Humans! If you visited a time when beards were common, say a mining town in frontier America, and saw a bunch of men with beards would you assume that human women look exactly the same? There's no reason to assume that dwarf women don't exist or are born with a full chin of hair. Are they also born with a helm and a battle axe?

That said, this is fantasy so do whatever you want. Discworld's idea of every dwarf pretending to be male is pretty hilarious.

Yes, dwarves are born with proficiency with weapons and join combat with their mothers immediately after birth. Haven't you played Dwarf Fortress? :smallconfused:

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 03:37 PM
I think you see what I did there... >.>

http://warbriel.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/orc_chicks.jpg
:smallcool:

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 03:38 PM
I'm asking why aliens have to not be attractive. :O
Because they are. . .alien? Instead of funny people in funny hats, let's make them actually different.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 03:40 PM
Because they are. . .alien? Instead of funny people in funny hats, let's make them actually different.

I see what you're saying, but you're just giving females a male trait. If you really want your races to be aliens (or more alien), you can be a lot more creative with their description than SHORT BIG (WO)MEN WITH BIG BEARDS.

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 03:41 PM
*shrugs* I am not saying I find her attractive, but why should I? I am a human, that is a dwarf. More then two different races, they are usually, as much as this has meaning in fantasy, two different species. Why should there not be differances that each side finds repulsive? In a world with bearded lady dwarves, maybe they find, besides being too tall and skinny, human womenfolk to be too prepubescent, a beard being a biological sign of womanhood. Some shave, some don't.
These are aliens, for crying out loud. Shouldn't they be. . .alien?

You must be new to the internet. Or humanity in general. :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 03:43 PM
I see what you're saying, but you're just giving females a male trait. If you really want your races to be aliens (or more alien), you can be a lot more creative with their description than SHORT BIG (WO)MEN WITH BIG BEARDS.
Of course, but it's a step away from the scottish, viking, chibi's that pervade dwarfdom.

Ganurath
2009-10-21, 03:46 PM
I'm going to have to cast my favor toward the viewpoint that doesn't get in the way of nurturing baby dwarves. Unless dwarven mammaries are just for show... Hey, look, a reptilian humanoid!

Zaydos
2009-10-21, 03:58 PM
If you go with mythic dwarves then they ought to not look alien. In the myths they look like ugly humans, paled skinned, often black hair, but they were either (depending upon translation) modeled by the Aesir after humans or had the humans made to look like them. So generally my dwarf women don't have beards, my dwarf men wear beards as a status symbol; so yes they are chibi-vikings.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-21, 04:14 PM
and the tall one is a male elf. :)

I also say no beards.

It's REALLY had to tell the sexes apart when it comes to both eleves and dwarves, for pretty much the same reason.

Regardless, in my games male dwarves have thier beards, and female dwarves have thier hair (that is, the hair on thier scalp.) Male dwarves can shave thier heads (if they don't go bald naturally, which many do), but shaving thier beards is rare and usually considered a sign of extreme mourning or shame. Dwarven women don't grow facial hair any more than human women do (which is not to say "not at all," but it's uncommon,) but they never cut thier hair unless, again, it's due to experiencing extreme mourning or shame.

Jergmo
2009-10-21, 04:23 PM
It's REALLY had to tell the sexes apart when it comes to both eleves and dwarves, for pretty much the same reason.

Don't be silly, the female elves are the ones that look like runway models with breast implants.

Cieyrin
2009-10-21, 04:34 PM
Don't be silly, the female elves are the ones that look like runway models with breast implants.

Female elves tend to be rather flat, actually, making the rather effeminate elves difficult to tell apart, other than by dress, which even then can't necessarily tell them apart.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-21, 05:06 PM
Here's a dnd race lineup I rather like in place of the one in the players handbook which clearly shows no beard (this also has no beard): LINK (http://staino.deviantart.com/art/Fantasy-Women-69824586)

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 05:35 PM
I am averse to the idea of bearded dwarf women outside of comedy because I like Dwarves. Insisting that they are bearded, or otherwise indistinguishable from men is a nice, simple way to basically do the Dwarven race down. I point to the fact that every post involving a (picture that will actually load...) looks a little bit ridiculous or mostly outright intentionally humourous.

Insisting on big bushy beards is like the literary equivalent of putting them in burkas, it's an almost-offensive way of subjugating the very idea of Dwarven Women. ("Oh, you can play a dwarven woman, but YOU HAS BEARD, HAHA. ALSO UGLY.")
I really don't think it's coincidence that the only decent setting that I know of with confirmed bearded dwarven women is the Discworld. Much as I love the dwarves of that setting, and ms Littlebottom.
Even in tolkein, the way I understood it was the the concept of them all having beards was only ever raised as a joke by Gimli, in answer to racial stereotypes of his people.

However, yeah. They should still look dwarven. Stocky, braided and generally hardcore in the way that dwarves are.
For want of better, sfw examples, along these lines perhaps.
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/091/c/7/Dwarf_Girl_colored_by_Mikel_by_MasterMikel.jpghttp ://fc00.deviantart.com/fs23/i/2007/313/7/4/Dwarf_Priestess_by_ironhenry.jpg

TL;DR - Bearded women jokes are great for lulz. I like dwarves though, and do not feel they need to be reduced to a joke.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 05:53 PM
I don't think beards make them a joke, I think it makes them different. More then little people with horned helmets and a propensity for strong drink. That is not to say they can't have other, more familiar sexual traits.
I have played half-orcs, men and women, and neither is generally considered pleasing to the human eye. I mean, nice six pack (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/a/a3/DrusennatheVigilant.jpg), but not someone I would generally consider having a relationship with.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 05:59 PM
I don't think beards make them a joke, I think it makes them different. More then little people with horned helmets and a propensity for strong drink. That is not to say they can't have other, more familiar sexual traits.
I have played half-orcs, men and women, and neither is generally considered pleasing to the human eye. I mean, nice six pack (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/a/a3/DrusennatheVigilant.jpg), but not someone I would generally consider having a relationship with.

Nice six pack indeed. ^_^ Also loving the detail on her belt; She's clearly a softie at heart.

Like a Drum, brother.

Alright, a challenge. A picture of a Dwarven Lady that is,
A; Genuinely, unambiguously cool.
B; Bearded
C; Doesn't make the Dwarf a figure of fun.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 06:06 PM
Alright, a challenge. A picture of a Dwarven Lady that is,
A; Genuinely, unambiguously cool.
B; Bearded
C; Doesn't make the Dwarf a figure of fun.
I will get right on that.
Expect results by this time tomorrow.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 06:07 PM
I will get right on that.
Expect results by this time tomorrow.

Genuinely, I wish you luck. :)

AstralFire
2009-10-21, 06:19 PM
Similarly, the reason I am opposed to universal beardification is because it is mostly used as a cheap laughs, little depth stereotype. I am no fan of nonsensically increasing bosoms and chainmail bikinis, either.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 06:19 PM
Genuinely, I wish you luck. :)
Well, until I finish my drawing, this should tide you over (http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9081/dwarfwomen.jpg).

Asbestos
2009-10-21, 06:26 PM
I'm surprised this fine lady hasn't shown up. She's a non-bearded dwarf that doesn't look like a Viking AND doesn't look like a child.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/360_Gallery/dragon360_01.jpg

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 06:28 PM
Well, until I finish my drawing, this should tide you over (http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9081/dwarfwomen.jpg).

That's not really much of a beard, to be fair*, but it's certainly the best effort I've seen. Ironically, other than the braided gotee, it doesn't really look very dwarven, either. Lose the beard, and I'd have a hard time believing it was even supposed to be a dwarf.

* - It's almost closer to the 'muttonchops only' vote, rather than the full-beard and moustache concept. It basically functions for it's purposes on account of it doesn't obscure any of the face itself, and leaves the outline more or less in-tact. It'd be a lot more difficult to pull off as a proper beard, even if merely adding a moustache element to the beard in question.

Is it, by any chance, your work? If so, I have high hopes that there may be any point crossposting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117210) this eventual piece.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-21, 06:32 PM
Why don't people stick with the real story? According to Norse and Germanic myth, there really were no dwarven women. Instead, they carved their progeny full grown from stone. And if exposed to sunlight, they returned to the stone from which they'd been carved. Because of this limitation they'd often steal human babies and leave changelings int their place. THAT'S a dwarf!

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 06:37 PM
Is it, by any chance, your work? If so, I have high hopes that there may be any point crossposting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117210) this eventual piece.
Oh hells no.:smallredface: I would sell my right kidney for skills that good.

falconflicker
2009-10-21, 06:43 PM
Why don't people stick with the real story? According to Norse and Germanic myth, there really were no dwarven women. Instead, they carved their progeny full grown from stone. And if exposed to sunlight, they returned to the stone from which they'd been carved. Because of this limitation they'd often steal human babies and leave changelings int their place. THAT'S a dwarf!

As far as I could tell, that wasn't specific to dwarves, I'd heard it for some of the more amoral fey (as in the fey with morality so completely alien as to be incomprehensible to humans), as well as multiple variants on trolls.

Actually, this is the 1st time I've heard the changeling story applied to dwarves.

Zaydos
2009-10-21, 06:48 PM
As far as I could tell, that wasn't specific to dwarves, I'd heard it for some of the more amoral fey (as in the fey with morality so completely alien as to be incomprehensible to humans), as well as multiple variants on trolls.

Actually, this is the 1st time I've heard the changeling story applied to dwarves.

Same with me. Actually the Eddas say that dwarves were maggots that grew in the flesh of Ymir after he was killed. Tolkien did have dwarves be carved out of stone in the Silmarilion (I forget how to spell the name of the Vanir that did this so I won't try), but that's not myth. As for changelings? I've heard later Germanic myths which have mountain dwelling elves do this, and in several later myths the words elf and dwarf were used interchangeably for elves which dwelt in the mountains.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 06:51 PM
Same with me. Actually the Eddas say that dwarves were maggots that grew in the flesh of Ymir after he was killed. Tolkien did have dwarves be carved out of stone in the Silmarilion (I forget how to spell the name of the Vanir that did this so I won't try), but that's not myth. As for changelings? I've heard later Germanic myths which have mountain dwelling elves do this, and in several later myths the words elf and dwarf were used interchangeably for elves which dwelt in the mountains.

As far as I understand, the mythic origins of Dwarves, Elves, and Dark Elves are so ludicrously intertwined as to be pretty indistinguishable and often interchangable.

And largely have at this point very little baring on what people think of when referencing the above three fantasy races.

AstralFire
2009-10-21, 07:01 PM
As far as I understand, the mythic origins of Dwarves, Elves, and Dark Elves are so ludicrously intertwined as to be pretty indistinguishable and often interchangable.

And largely have at this point very little baring on what people think of when referencing the above three fantasy races.

Correctamundo. It'd be more accurate to say that dark elf and dwarf were generally indistinguishable until later days.

TheThan
2009-10-21, 07:04 PM
Well these are definitely dwarves, they are definitely cute and they definitely don’t have beards. (pulled them from the dungeons and dames thread).




Finally, the cutest darn dwarves you'll ever see (http://www.naorhy.com/fa_graphics_e3.htm)(caution: Some (on the site) NSFW):
http://www.naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/dwarf/dwarven_waitress.jpg
http://www.naorhy.com/art/freddy/elfwood/dwarf/dwarven_garden_girl.jpg

LibraryOgre
2009-10-21, 07:37 PM
http://rampantgames.com/blog/uploaded_images/slavepits-716843.jpg

Dwarf women have beards. At least, the pretty ones do.

More on the subject:

One (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/28356.html)
Two (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/12518.html)
Three (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/12151.html)

Asbestos
2009-10-21, 07:38 PM
Why don't people stick with the real story? According to Norse and Germanic myth, there really were no dwarven women. Instead, they carved their progeny full grown from stone. And if exposed to sunlight, they returned to the stone from which they'd been carved. Because of this limitation they'd often steal human babies and leave changelings int their place. THAT'S a dwarf!

The Poetic and Prose Eddas specifically refer to the 'daughters of Dvalinn' when referring to the dwarves. They are turned to stone in sunlight, but I have not found too much to confirm that they were created from stone or by any means not biological (since even the gods are created via biological means)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-21, 07:45 PM
I honestly do remember reading somewhere that the dwarves had to carve new dwarves out of stone. Maybe only the first generation of dwarves were formed from Ymir's maggots and they didn't have any women, and instead used their craftsman mojo to make subsequent generations. :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2009-10-21, 07:52 PM
I honestly do remember reading somewhere that the dwarves had to carve new dwarves out of stone.

That's not the uncommon part, it's the baby-stealing thing that's usually more attributed to elves which is confusing some people.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-21, 07:56 PM
I honestly do remember reading somewhere that the dwarves had to carve new dwarves out of stone. Maybe only the first generation of dwarves were formed from Ymir's maggots and they didn't have any women, and instead used their craftsman mojo to make subsequent generations. :smallconfused:

This is a Lady Dwarf. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. The Lady Dwarf menaces with Spikes of Granite.
:smallwink:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-21, 08:01 PM
That's not the uncommon part, it's the baby-stealing thing that's usually more attributed to elves which is confusing some people.

Oh. Yeah, that part confused me when I read it too. Though I think the book I was reading was classifying dwarves as a kind of fairy. The Fairy Bible, I think it was called.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-21, 08:02 PM
This is a Lady Dwarf. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. The Lady Dwarf menaces with Spikes of Granite.
:smallwink:

Huh? Je ne comprends pas, mon ami. :smallconfused:

Mewtarthio
2009-10-21, 08:03 PM
Hmm...

Where is that reference from?

It seems like an idea which would add a lot of flavor and uniqueness/creativity to a DM's world.

It's not a reference to anything in particular. I was thinking of certain types of spiders when I wrote it, probably because they, too, spend all their time in dark places.

Random832
2009-10-21, 09:23 PM
Huh? Je ne comprends pas, mon ami. :smallconfused:

It's a reference to Dwarf Fortress (it's the kind of description you'd generally see on a crafted item - "menaces with spikes" is a popular decoration for dwarves)

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-21, 09:58 PM
Oh, I see. I've never played Dwarf Fortress.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-21, 10:15 PM
Well, I decided, instead of scanning something in, I would just doodle something up in MSPaint, Tiki Snakes.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9362/dwarvenlady.png

thorgrim29
2009-10-21, 10:27 PM
Meh, as far as I know, the Warhammer dwarf women are beardless (there was a mini a few editions back, queen helga I think.....), and since they're ridiculously touchy about beardiness I'm pretty sure she doesn't shave. Since I usually play my dwarves as toned down versions of them (seriously, they are hardcore about grudges to the point of insanity), that's what I roll with.

John Campbell
2009-10-22, 12:05 AM
I vote no beards, if only because of the dwarf I played who didn't really care about the esoterica of the gender roles of the lesser races, and just operated on the assumption that anyone with a beard was male and anyone without was female.

He was always surprised by the number of elves - and even humans - who got violently offended when he addressed them politely as "m'lady". But that was okay; he was always up for a brawl, and, if these strangely offended human and elven ladies couldn't fight like a good dwarven girl could, well, that's only to be expected.

They'd get even more offended if he mentioned that, but that's to be expected, too. No one likes being told they don't fight as well as a dwarven schoolgirl, even though it's usually true.

Asbestos
2009-10-22, 12:10 AM
I vote no beards, if only because of the dwarf I played who didn't really care about the esoterica of the gender roles of the lesser races, and just operated on the assumption that anyone with a beard was male and anyone without was female.

He was always surprised by the number of elves - and even humans - who got violently offended when he addressed them politely as "m'lady". But that was okay; he was always up for a brawl, and, if these strangely offended human and elven ladies couldn't fight like a good dwarven girl could, well, that's only to be expected.

They'd get even more offended if he mentioned that, but that's to be expected, too. No one likes being told they don't fight as well as a dwarven schoolgirl, even though it's usually true.

That is one culturally ignorant dwarf.

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 12:12 AM
That is one culturally ignorant dwarf.
You mean an amazing dwarf I'm sure.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-22, 12:20 AM
You mean an amazing dwarf I'm sure.
He should meet my elf druid who had never seen moobs before.

FoE
2009-10-22, 12:23 AM
You know, I say we settle this debate by petitioning WotC to have dwarves made into rock monsters in 5E.

They went halfway there with galeb duhr in 4E; now we just need to push them the rest of the way.

Zaydos
2009-10-22, 12:31 AM
You know, I say we settle this debate by petitioning WotC to have dwarves made into rock monsters in 5E.

I've been tempted to make them that way before... not because of this issue but because it just seems good.

Personally I like the no beards approach because of an association with bearded dwarf women being a joke. In LotR it is joked about but whether it is true or not is not shown, in 1e or Basic (forget which) it is again mentioned and some of the art includes it giving the suggestion some validity in game and even though that was my first introduction to female dwarves I thought they were joking then as a 6 year old so I will openly admit I have a natural bias, and in Discworld it is a running joke. Elsewhere female dwarves either do not have beards, or are not mentioned, and that is how I play them.

I'd say just agree to disagree and let it drop, BUT this thread is TOO MUCH FUN to let end like that. So by all means please continue :smallsmile:

PS: Just for fun
Stone Dwarves:
Size: Medium
Type: Elemental (Earth)
Ability Scores: +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Cha.
Natural Armor: +3 natural armor.
Special: Dwarf traits; DR 1/adamantine per 3 levels.
LA: +1
Favored Class: Fighter/don't use XP penalty /shrug.

krossbow
2009-10-22, 01:03 AM
http://rampantgames.com/blog/uploaded_images/slavepits-716843.jpg

Dwarf women have beards. At least, the pretty ones do.

More on the subject:

One (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/28356.html)
Two (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/12518.html)
Three (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/12151.html)



ah man, good old school D&D artwork. Back when wizards seemed to get out of bed and think "I want to look like a complete tool today!". God that stuff is classic, i love the finger symbols.

Set
2009-10-22, 01:14 AM
You know, I say we settle this debate by petitioning WotC to have dwarves made into rock monsters in 5E.

In Shadowbane, the Dwarves were all created of stone by the Creator god at the dawn of the world, from stone that he breathed life into. They don't have females, they don't reproduce and they are immortal.

It was a pretty neat twist on the 'classic' Tolkien-inspired dwarf.

Another would be to go back into Norse lore and have dwarves be skinnier and have crows feet, and being much more known for their ancient magical smithing skills than any sort of fighting nature.


Actually, dwarves exhibit an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism. Most surface races ignorantly refer to dwarven females as "cave trolls."

That would play amusingly on the 'descended from maggots tunneling into the flesh of Ymir' theme, if every community of dwarves had only one female, a colossal bloated sessile thing that pumped out more dwarves from it's squirming white abdomen...

Ew!

krossbow
2009-10-22, 01:23 AM
In Shadowbane, the Dwarves were all created of stone by the Creator god at the dawn of the world, from stone that he breathed life into. They don't have females, they don't reproduce and they are immortal.

It was a pretty neat twist on the 'classic' Tolkien-inspired dwarf.

Another would be to go back into Norse lore and have dwarves be skinnier and have crows feet, and being much more known for their ancient magical smithing skills than any sort of fighting nature.

that sounds alot like how elder scrolls treated dwarves

John Campbell
2009-10-22, 01:50 AM
That is one culturally ignorant dwarf.

Mm. I once had a girlfriend who kept her hair cropped extremely short. She tended to dress in unisex baggy-jeans-and-T-shirt kind of attire, too... which didn't really do all that much to make her set of double-Ds unobtrusive. Despite the twins, there were several occasions where I witnessed people, shop attendants and the like, addressing her as "sir".

For that matter, I'm six feet tall, broad-shouldered and fairly muscular, and wear a full beard. I've been mistakenly addressed as "ma'am" a few times, I have to assume because I have a ponytail down to the middle of my back.

And this is by other humans, who should be fully aware of other gender cues than mere hair length. (And it's not like this is the '50s. Girls can have buzzcuts. Guys can have long hair. Deal with it.)

I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine that a dwarf, who grew up in dwarven society, where a man shaving his beard is unthinkable, might have more than a little trouble sorting out the cues in non-dwarven society, where that absolutely rigid gender cue is commonly broken, the other cues don't work because non-dwarven builds are completely different - even the stockiest human guy has a much more slender build than the slimmest dwarven girl, and don't even get me started on the elves, and how do you know those aren't just moobs, and elf girls barely have any anyway... - and the fashions are completely different - what do you mean, adamantine plate isn't feminine? - and the gender roles are completely different...

Toric
2009-10-22, 02:07 AM
In the campaign I play, female dwarves do not have beards, but they do have sideburns. Dwarven males pay more attention to them than "tracts of land". The puffier the better, though any dwarven lady of status will keep her earmuffs properly landscaped whenever possible. For me, at least, mutton chops strike a great balance between establishing a clear difference between genders (if you're into that sort of thing) and maintaining the old dwarven obsession with hair.

It's great fun for when that surly dwarven warrior sheepishly describes his betrothed.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:12 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

Zaydos
2009-10-22, 02:21 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

That makes... wonderful sense.

Seriously it's things like this that makes me love this thread :smallbiggrin:

That and the serious side to the discussion.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-10-22, 02:23 AM
Gotta say this whole subject sorta makes my brain shut down.

"Buu... Bu.... BUT THEY DON'T HAVE BEARDS IN MY HEAD! NU! I DON'T WANT! >.<;!"

I think the eyebrows & side burns thing work out far better for my sanity. Discworld awesomeness aside.

Solaris
2009-10-22, 02:56 AM
Do elf women have beards?
What about goblin women?
Orc women?
Giant women?

Not in my fantasies.

amidoingitrite?

I see what you did thar and I now need brain-bleach.


He should meet my elf druid who had never seen moobs before.

Or boobs, for that matter. It's an elf.
Heheheheh.


I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is elf!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

I give up, is it bad when the crazy guy standing on the street corner and ranting about seeing things that ought not to be starts to make sense?

Kris Strife
2009-10-22, 05:34 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

I've heard worse ideas for settings.

I once ruled that female dwarves look like miniaturized Swedish supermodels because of the beards/no beards thing.

Weimann
2009-10-22, 05:42 AM
My mind tells me that beards should be a purely male thing.

That said, I think that dwarf women can grow beards, but I like to think that they don't keep them as large and bushy as the men do, at least not those who live among other races.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-22, 08:59 AM
Well, I decided, instead of scanning something in, I would just doodle something up in MSPaint, Tiki Snakes.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9362/dwarvenlady.png

That's not a bad effort, Ravens. Again with the lack of 'stache, I note. :)

Still can't take her seriously, though.

Zovc
2009-10-22, 10:27 AM
Well, I decided, instead of scanning something in, I would just doodle something up in MSPaint, Tiki Snakes.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9362/dwarvenlady.png

I'm not saying it's a bad picture (I happen to think you did a good job), but I don't like it (the beard) at all. Call it one of my shortcomings, but I just don't think ladies should should have beards, I think beards are a major gender cue. I find most guys look better (more like guys) with facial hair... and I think women look better without facial hair, for the record. XP

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 11:22 AM
I like the sideburns. Maybe braided and looped behind the ears while working and wore loose when relaxing.

I also prefer this idea: As they enter the dwarven equivalent of menopause, they start growing a beard and are now know as a Clan Mother. Each clan would have several. They work as a group overseeing the day to day operation of the clan hall (everything from making sure the coal is ordered for the forges, to settling legal matters that arise between others of their clan). This would give the clan leader the time needed to run mines, militia and dealing between clans.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-22, 12:08 PM
That's not a bad effort, Ravens. Again with the lack of 'stache, I note. :)

Still can't take her seriously, though.
Well, yes, but in the 3.5 race pictures, even the dude dwarves lacked moustaches. But why can't you 'take her seriously'?
How can you take that seriously and not this (http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4464/dwarvenlady2.png)? How does it look like a 'joke'?


I'm not saying it's a bad picture (I happen to think you did a good job), but I don't like it (the beard) at all. Call it one of my shortcomings, but I just don't think ladies should should have beards, I think beards are a major gender cue. I find most guys look better (more like guys) with facial hair... and I think women look better without facial hair, for the record. XP

Well, yes of course. But you are human. She is not. I am not asking you to find her hot, or even attractive. I am not even saying that dwarven women with beards is right. I just find the idea of races that are more alien then simply being little, or pointy-eared, or fuzzy footed, humans, more flavourful. Of course, beards is also just an appearance thing, but it lends itself to a more distinct cultural dynamics. Some dwarven men may like them long and flowing, some may like just a little soul patch. Some may like them shaved clean off, though most find that a little squicky.

Pika...
2009-10-22, 12:27 PM
Is it so hard to agree to disagree?


Some of us DMs like giving a nod to D&D's Tolkenish ancestry.

Others find it "stupid", especially the newer/younger generation. (I myself should fall under this, but I am an old-soul of sorts when it comes to fantasy.)


Here is my belief:

If your DM worked hard on his world DO NOT ARGUE WITH HIM. That, or find a new DM.

If you are the DM, your players should respect you and should not argue with you.

I had a terrible rules-lawyer player that killed off the fun of my first campaign as a DM, and therefore caused me to drop it (and the group) on the spot. He would argue this and the halflings thing to no end, even though it is in my houserules clearly stated.

However, if I was in another DM's game I wuld not say a word if he/she decided that in her setting/world/cosmology dwarf females looked like they are portrayed in the earlier image I quoted (very animeish). Heck, they can look like human women, or have pink hair for all I care. If the roleplaying and group is good I am staying, and I would enjoy the chance to play in diverse worlds rather than the same old D&D default setting (aka Grayhawk).




It's not a reference to anything in particular. I was thinking of certain types of spiders when I wrote it, probably because they, too, spend all their time in dark places.

I see. Either wayI think it is brilliant.

May I steal?

I might make it something exclusive to the Deep Dwarves, or perhaps to the evilish gray dwarves (sorry, can' recal their names right now).

AstralFire
2009-10-22, 12:31 PM
Is it so hard to agree to disagree?

This isn't even a fierce argument, it's a friendly discussion and debate.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 12:37 PM
or perhaps to the evilish gray dwarves (sorry, can' recal their names right now).

Duergar.

:)

Pika...
2009-10-22, 12:37 PM
This isn't even a fierce argument, it's a friendly discussion and debate.

True, but it just seems like an issue that people have strong feelings about, which means it just goes on. My guess is it probably will go on until either roleplaying dies completely due to video/computer games, or Tolkien's books are long forgotten and lost to history.


And again, if DMs work hard on their worlds players should not try arguing their thematic styles, ideas, variations, etc.



Duergar.

:)

Much appreciated.

Athaniar
2009-10-22, 03:19 PM
Apparently, The Giant's dwarves come both with and without beards. "The Amazing Bearded Lady" from Start of Darkness is booed by the audience for being "just a dwarf chick". Is Hilgya an exception?

Also, a female dwarf:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG198.jpg

Paulus
2009-10-22, 03:22 PM
Apparently, The Giant's dwarves come both with and without beards. "The Amazing Bearded Lady" from Start of Darkness is booed by the audience for being "just a dwarf chick". Is Hilgya an exception?

Also, a female dwarf:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG198.jpg

NSFW nymph doesn't count here! ya silly.

well okay but only for a while. *stttaaaaaaaaaaarrreeee*
mmm culture!

Zombimode
2009-10-22, 03:59 PM
NSFW nymph doesn't count here! ya silly.

well okay but only for a while. *stttaaaaaaaaaaarrreeee*
mmm culture!

Well, I'm not overly fond of her face, but *looks a bit down* ... uhm... but.. *stare*
I'm in Holodeck 3.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 04:05 PM
Well, I'm not overly fond of her face, but *looks a bit down* ... uhm... but.. *stare*
I'm in Holodeck 3.

OMG SHE HAS A FACE!

>:3 and it ain't bearded! *wink wink nudge nudge wink wink blink nudge fidget roll drop kick*

The Tygre
2009-10-22, 05:54 PM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

And gnomes are just young dwarves/elves, a larval form! Of course! It's so simple it's genius! (I seriously read this theory somewhere, then proceeded to make a character out of it.)

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 06:03 PM
And gnomes are just young dwarves/elves, a larval form! Of course! It's so simple it's genius! (I seriously read this theory somewhere, then proceeded to make a character out of it.)in Scion, dwarves are larval dark elves. :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-22, 09:07 PM
Well, yes, but in the 3.5 race pictures, even the dude dwarves lacked moustaches. But why can't you 'take her seriously'?
How can you take that seriously and not this (http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4464/dwarvenlady2.png)? How does it look like a 'joke'?


Well, yes of course. But you are human. She is not. I am not asking you to find her hot, or even attractive. I am not even saying that dwarven women with beards is right. I just find the idea of races that are more alien then simply being little, or pointy-eared, or fuzzy footed, humans, more flavourful. Of course, beards is also just an appearance thing, but it lends itself to a more distinct cultural dynamics. Some dwarven men may like them long and flowing, some may like just a little soul patch. Some may like them shaved clean off, though most find that a little squicky.

Simply put, because it's an essentially humourous image. It only gets jollier with a FULL beard;
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4464/dwarvenlady2.png
Hilda is famed for her beauty, and her expert use of moustache wax.

And sure, you aren't required to find Dwarven women Hot, because you aren't a dwarf. HOWEVER, a lot of the time a beard is added exclusively so that they cannot be found hot, either to add humour or simply to undermine them as an serious race.

A Dwarven girl with a beard, in any campaign or work of fiction is only ever going to be one of several things, such as; A 'tragic, unwomanly freak'. The Comic Relief, or some kind of grotesque. Any other attempted role will be permenantly obscured by tittering or so on.

It's unnecessary, it gets in the way, and all it truly does is to defeminize Female dwarves, NOT dehumanise them. You will occaisionally see people similarly protesting against pictures of Orc ladies who are too good looking (albeit usually in a very orcy way).

Matthew
2009-10-22, 09:34 PM
No beards for my dwarf women, thanks!

Much like pointy ears for elves, bearded female dwarves are only attested in Tolkien's correspondence, so if I shut my eyes tightly enough and jam my fingers in my ears whilst chanting, I can usually blot that out...

Gygax, on the other hand, took great pleasure in upholding the dwarf women have beards argument in several issues of Dragon, likely related to the AD&D DMG characterisation of dwarves (p. 16):



Dwarves tend to be dour and taciturn. They are given to hard work and care little for most humour. They are strong and brave, but they also enjoy beer, ale, mead, and even stronger drink. Their chief love, however, is precious metal, particularly gold. They also enjoy gems, of course, particularly those of opaque nature (except pearls which they do not like) and diamonds. They like the earth and dislike the sea. Considering that their women tend to be bearded too, it is not surprising that some dwarves are somewhat forward in their behaviour towards females not so adorned. If dwarves are a trifle suspicious and avaricious, they generally make up for such faults by their courage and tenacity.

Call it aesthetic shallowness, but bearded dwarf women just do not fit my expectations.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-22, 11:08 PM
Call it aesthetic shallowness, but bearded dwarf women just do not fit my expectations.

You shallow aesthete. Everyone knows that dwarven women make beautiful lovers.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 11:11 PM
You shallow aesthete. Everyone knows that dwarven women make beautiful lovers.

You could almost say that every other lover was dwarfed in comparison...
*hops on the seesaw* wheeee! Ow! my butt once again.

Jergmo
2009-10-22, 11:58 PM
You could almost say that every other lover was dwarfed in comparison...
*hops on the seesaw* wheeee! Ow! my butt once again.

That's it, someone summon the P.P.P.P. (Pun Pusher Punishing Patrol)

Pika...
2009-10-22, 11:59 PM
Well, I'm not overly fond of her face, but *looks a bit down* ... uhm... but.. *stare*
I'm in Holodeck 3.

Her face is what captivates me the most. :smallconfused:

Second is the beautiful art style/skill of the artist.

DSCrankshaw
2009-10-23, 12:13 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

No fair, I'm pretty sure I already posted this setting somewhere on this site. Or maybe it was the Wizards site. Specifically, I posited that when dwarves and elves interbred, the boys looked like their father and the girls looked like their mother. I further posited a valley isolated for millenia containing only male dwarves and female elves. They don't consider themselves separate races, and consider height and ear pointedness are as much secondary sexual characteristics as beards and breasts. It'd be a fun place for the PCs to visit, especially if the group included male elves or female dwarves.

For extra fun, you can reverse it: a society of female dwarves and male elves.

DSCrankshaw
2009-10-23, 12:30 AM
Here is my belief:

If your DM worked hard on his world DO NOT ARGUE WITH HIM. That, or find a new DM.

If you are the DM, your players should respect you and should not argue with you.

I had a terrible rules-lawyer player that killed off the fun of my first campaign as a DM, and therefore caused me to drop it (and the group) on the spot. He would argue this and the halflings thing to no end, even though it is in my houserules clearly stated.
See, I think you're making a mistake here. You're assuming that the call is the DM's, when in fact it's not: it's the call of the player who wants to play a female dwarf. If the player who wants a female dwarf doesn't want her to have facial hair, then she shouldn't, and the DM should not impose cultural norms or racial traits on her that would get in the way of the player's enjoyment of the character. If the player wants the female dwarf to have a beard, then she should, and again, the DM should adapt to it. It's more important for the player to be comfortable with the PC they're playing, than for the DM to enforce a fairly unimportant, debatable point of dwarven physique.

So, let's rephrase the question. Have you ever played a female dwarf in a game? If so, did she have a beard? If you were to play one, would she have a beard?

I once played a female dwarf druid, 3.5e shapeshifter variant. (She was transformed into a wolf for several years by Obad-Hai, and eventually gained control over the transformation.) She did not have a beard, and that was a point I was prepared to argue with the DM.

Xenogears
2009-10-23, 12:33 AM
See, I think you're making a mistake here. You're assuming that the call is the DM's, when in fact it's not: it's the call of the player who wants to play a female dwarf. If the player who wants a female dwarf doesn't want her to have facial hair, then she shouldn't, and the DM should not impose cultural norms or racial traits on her that would get in the way of the player's enjoyment of the character. If the player wants the female dwarf to have a beard, then she should, and again, the DM should adapt to it. It's more important for the player to be comfortable with the PC they're playing, than for the DM to enforce a fairly unimportant, debatable point of dwarven physique.

So, let's rephrase the question. Have you ever played a female dwarf in a game? If so, did she have a beard? If you were to play one, would she have a beard?

I once played a female dwarf druid, 3.5e shapeshifter variant. (She was transformed into a wolf for several years by Obad-Hai, and eventually gained control over the transformation.) She did not have a beard, and that was a point I was prepared to argue with the DM.

Sure you should be able to decide wether or not your character has a beard but it should still be up to the DM to decide if that is or is not culturally acceptable amongst dwarves. Hell I can play a Human woman with a beard (or atleast a thick mustache) but she's gonna get some pretty wierd looks.

Andras
2009-10-23, 12:38 AM
Apparently, The Giant's dwarves come both with and without beards. "The Amazing Bearded Lady" from Start of Darkness is booed by the audience for being "just a dwarf chick". Is Hilgya an exception?

Also, a female dwarf:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG198.jpg

I'm not sure. This will require significantly more analysis before any decision is made as to whether that's a dwarf.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 02:13 AM
See, I think you're making a mistake here. You're assuming that the call is the DM's, when in fact it's not: it's the call of the player who wants to play a female dwarf. If the player who wants a female dwarf doesn't want her to have facial hair, then she shouldn't, and the DM should not impose cultural norms or racial traits on her that would get in the way of the player's enjoyment of the character. If the player wants the female dwarf to have a beard, then she should, and again, the DM should adapt to it. It's more important for the player to be comfortable with the PC they're playing, than for the DM to enforce a fairly unimportant, debatable point of dwarven physique.

So, let's rephrase the question. Have you ever played a female dwarf in a game? If so, did she have a beard? If you were to play one, would she have a beard?

I once played a female dwarf druid, 3.5e shapeshifter variant. (She was transformed into a wolf for several years by Obad-Hai, and eventually gained control over the transformation.) She did not have a beard, and that was a point I was prepared to argue with the DM.


Well, try looking at it from the DM's perspective.

DM has spent weeks, months, or in some cases getting on years (I believe I am at about one and a half) making his campaign setting. Player just walks up and says "No! I will ignore everything you say, I simply don't care that it messes with the fluff, story, cultures, etc of your hard worked world. In truth all I care about is killing monsters, so get to work with encounters DM!". Yeah....no. This is where I meant it would probably be better to find a new DM. That, or the DM may choose to kick out the player.

It is literally like reading lord of the rings, but every few pages going "Eh?! This author was an idiot. I am completely ignoring this part about Elves having pointy ears. They have red clown noses!!! Oh, and dwarves are actually thirteen feet tall and eat orc babies for breakfast.". Honestly, why even read the books at this point?



ps. Sorry, forgot to answer your questions.

1. Have you ever played a female dwarf in a game?

Answer: No. Not yet.


2. If so, did she have a beard? If you were to play one, would she have a beard?

If I were to, then yes. However, if the DM were to say that in his setting/world Dwarf women do not have beards I would not argue the point. It is her/his game, and he/she is taking the time and trouble to run it for me and the other players. I would have some respect.

Jergmo
2009-10-23, 02:29 AM
-snip-

Er...no, not really, no. It's not like that at all. It's just some steenking facial hair. :smallannoyed:

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 02:34 AM
See, I think you're making a mistake here. You're assuming that the call is the DM's, when in fact it's not: it's the call of the player who wants to play a female dwarf. If the player who wants a female dwarf doesn't want her to have facial hair, then she shouldn't, and the DM should not impose cultural norms or racial traits on her that would get in the way of the player's enjoyment of the character. If the player wants the female dwarf to have a beard, then she should, and again, the DM should adapt to it. It's more important for the player to be comfortable with the PC they're playing, than for the DM to enforce a fairly unimportant, debatable point of dwarven physique.

So, let's rephrase the question. Have you ever played a female dwarf in a game? If so, did she have a beard? If you were to play one, would she have a beard?

I once played a female dwarf druid, 3.5e shapeshifter variant. (She was transformed into a wolf for several years by Obad-Hai, and eventually gained control over the transformation.) She did not have a beard, and that was a point I was prepared to argue with the DM.

I think I'm going to have to agree with Pika... on this one that if the DM has worked on fluff you shouldn't just ignore it. I would go further and say you should try and incorporate it if possible. Generally I'm not particularly attached to my character's hair-style, color, etc so it wouldn't really bother me either way.

As for have I played a female dwarf:
No; I rarely get to play in 3.X and normally don't play female characters as a PC, mostly because I have trouble when it comes to heavy RP with female characters and it is something I will admit I need to work on that aspect of role-playing both as a player and as a DM, increased social interaction is improving this though (as well as causing me to believe all humanity is crazy).

If I did? I would either play a male dwarf or not have a beard. If I played a female dwarf with a beard it would either 1) end up as a joke which would be bad; or 2) I would end up just ignoring/forgetting my character's gender.

I will say I now want to play a female dwarf warrior, rather in the vein of the 2e hearth warden kit from the Complete Book of Dwarves. It sounds like a fun concept, although I have several others on my list.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 02:45 AM
Er...no, not really, no. It's not like that at all. It's just some steenking facial hair. :smallannoyed:

To a DM who has been mapping out an enitre world, filling up binders worth of NPC, locations, dungeons, rivalries between nations/factons/races/etc/etc, making an entire website dedicated to his campaign world detailing all his setting's fluff, culture, history, houseruled material he has made, etc, etc, etc, just to have a snobby player come to his table and say "No! I completely ignore everything you have worked on, and insert my own thoughts/beliefs into your world!". No. I'd simply, but politely, ask the player to leave.

FoE
2009-10-23, 02:58 AM
But ... but it's facial hair. FACIAL HAIR.

Quite frankly, if the DM is so obstinate that he won't change a minor detail of his "extensively-detailed campaign world" to accomodate a player, that's kind of a red flag that he shouldn't be the DM.

In fact, I'd be wary of any DM who has "books and books" of information regarding his made-up campaign world. They tend to be the DMs whose campaigns turn into an exercise of justifying the amount of work put into developing this ZOMG SO FASCINATING setting. Pretty soon, you're hearing detailed descriptions of every goddamn butcher's shop you wander into and how it fits within the economy of Zanylrilithu, City of Marvels On the Edge of Forever Atop the Cliffs of Eternity.

Paulus
2009-10-23, 03:19 AM
But ... but it's facial hair. FACIAL HAIR.

Quite frankly, if the DM is so obstinate that he won't change a minor detail of his "extensively-detailed campaign world" to accomodate a player, that's kind of a red flag that he shouldn't be the DM.

In fact, I'd be wary of any DM who has "books and books" of information regarding his made-up campaign world. They tend to be the DMs whose campaigns turn into an exercise of justifying the amount of work put into developing this ZOMG SO FASCINATING setting. Pretty soon, you're hearing detailed descriptions of every goddamn butcher's shop you wander into and how it fits within the economy of Zanylrilithu, City of Marvels On the Edge of Forever Atop the Cliffs of Eternity.


No no, it's the Cliffs off Insanity. Duh.

INCONCEIVABLE!

Pika...
2009-10-23, 03:36 AM
But ... but it's facial hair. FACIAL HAIR.

Quite frankly, if the DM is so obstinate that he won't change a minor detail of his "extensively-detailed campaign world" to accomodate a player, that's kind of a red flag that he shouldn't be the DM.

In fact, I'd be wary of any DM who has "books and books" of information regarding his made-up campaign world. They tend to be the DMs whose campaigns turn into an exercise of justifying the amount of work put into developing this ZOMG SO FASCINATING setting. Pretty soon, you're hearing detailed descriptions of every goddamn butcher's shop you wander into and how it fits within the economy of Zanylrilithu, City of Marvels On the Edge of Forever Atop the Cliffs of Eternity.

Thanks for the warning. I will try to avoid that.

So far I usually only get into as much detail as the PCs ask. However, what they don't esquire about may indeed cause them pain. :smallbiggrin:

Wulfram
2009-10-23, 04:53 AM
Dwarven women wear fake beards when travelling, so surface dwellers aren't driven mad with lust at the sight of a properly proportioned female.

Cracklord
2009-10-23, 05:32 AM
I see what you did thar and I now need brain-bleach.


So be it. (http://community.livejournal.com/deleterius/3119013.html?view=66351269#t66351269) I can guarantee that once you read this, you will never have any unrelated worries again.



Also, a female dwarf:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG198.jpg

Mmmmm. I want to lose about two feet and gain about 80 pounds now (10% facial hair).

Theodoric
2009-10-23, 06:05 AM
Just because they can grow beards doesn't mean they always have actual beards.
People shave, you know. :smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 06:30 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

You can see everything, but can you see why kids love cinnimon toast crunch? Pun-Pun couldn't.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 07:09 AM
Dwarven women wear fake beards when travelling, so surface dwellers aren't driven mad with lust at the sight of a properly proportioned female.

Okay, I've changed my mind entirely. This. ^_^
Well, maybe not, but I definately approve.

Bayar
2009-10-23, 09:33 AM
I've got it! I finally solved the puzzle! It all makes perfect sense now! All dwarves are male, there are no females because all female dwarves are actually elves! That's right! there are no male elves! they are all just female dwarfs who got so tired of their men blabbering about their beards that they became taller, slender, and completely facial-hair-less! That's why elves all look female and all dwarves all look male! and why dwarves fight like cats and dogs! They are literally the same species of being only male is dwarf and female is efl!! it's all so clear!!! Those dwarves with boobs? Just fat men! those elves with no boobs? Flat chested women!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!
~I can see through time!!~

Wow that's a good idea. My next campaign setting will now have a remote valley with female elves and male dwarfs, mixing it up and carring on, right next to the remote village built on top of the shackeled Tarrasque which is used for harvesting mutagenic food and the Daelkyr Artificier Spelljammer with a Stargate towards other planes of existence.

Thane of Fife
2009-10-23, 09:49 AM
Everyone knows that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground!

Dwarven women... that's ridiculous.

:smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 10:15 AM
Everyone knows that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground!

Dwarven women... that's ridiculous.


Well of course you surface dwellers think that. Good Dwarven plate is rarely breastplate, as it were, and most dwarves seen above ground are adventurers. One might as well say since a realistic anthropomorphic lizard lacks breasts, it can't look feminine.
Oh wait. (http://www.rhjunior.com/NT/00744.html)

Jergmo
2009-10-23, 12:03 PM
To a DM who has been mapping out an enitre world, filling up binders worth of NPC, locations, dungeons, rivalries between nations/factons/races/etc/etc, making an entire website dedicated to his campaign world detailing all his setting's fluff, culture, history, houseruled material he has made, etc, etc, etc, just to have a snobby player come to his table and say "No! I completely ignore everything you have worked on, and insert my own thoughts/beliefs into your world!". No. I'd simply, but politely, ask the player to leave.

But that's not what they're saying! They just don't want their character to have a beard! So what?

Pika...
2009-10-23, 12:10 PM
But that's not what they're saying! They just don't want their character to have a beard! So what?

But what if a player says he does not want his Elf to have pointed ears, or his Half-Orc to be green/furry, and be labeled a social outcast by most people/places?

FoE
2009-10-23, 12:19 PM
Has anyone in the history of D&D wanted to play an elf that didn't have pointed ears?

While I would suggest the player actually play a half-elf or human, it's still just an aesthetic change and largely meaningless. If the player was dead-set on playing a round-eared elf, I would allow it. Ditto for the green, furry half-orc. (I reserve the right to make fun of them, however. Often by having NPCs say "Whoever heard of an elf without pointy ears?")

On the other hand, if the player wanted to bump his character up a size category or give them blindsight, that has actual mechanical implications and I would be wary of allowing it. Ditto on the social stigma thing if it's not already part of the campaign setting, as I have to go to extra work to accomodate that change.

Theodoric
2009-10-23, 12:21 PM
But what if a player says he does not want his Elf to have pointed ears, or his Half-Orc to be green/furry, and be labeled a social outcast by most people/places?
Beards can be shaven off, people. Do I need to post pictures to prove it?

Roderick_BR
2009-10-23, 12:23 PM
The other is a dude elf :smallwink:
Fixed :smallwink:

But yah, depends on the setting. Ravenloft they have, but usuall shave it clean. In some others settings, they have none, like most of the common races (can't really point any specific setting, though), and in others, they have beard and keep them like the male dwarves. Actually, I think some multi scenarios like Forgotten Realms have several race variants with and without beard.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 12:24 PM
But that's not what they're saying! They just don't want their character to have a beard! So what?
Human males have beards, and human males can, and often do, shave. If the DM has a world with dwarf woman potentially having beards, the player just pack a straight razor or alchemical depilatory.
There, compromise.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 12:34 PM
Has anyone in the history of D&D wanted to play an elf that didn't have pointed ears?

While I would suggest the player actually play a half-elf or human, it's still just an aesthetic change and largely meaningless. If the player was dead-set on playing a round-eared elf, I would allow it. Ditto for the green, furry half-orc.

On the other hand, if the player wanted to bump his character up a size category or give them blindsight, that has actual mechanical implications and I would be wary of allowing it. Ditto on the social stigma thing if it's not already part of the campaign setting, as I have to go to extra work to accomodate that change.

Well, I guess it all depends on the style of the DM.

You say avoid DMs who put to much effort into the fluff of their worlds, I would enjoy the opposite.

To me the game you are describing seems more of a rollplaying style game, while I am trying to describe a roleplaying style game. Both styles are good, just to each his own.




Beards can be shaven off, people. Do I need to post pictures to prove it?


Human males have beards, and human males can, and often do, shave. If the DM has a world with dwarf woman potentially having beards, the player just pack a straight razor or alchemical depilatory.
There, compromise.



Agreed.

I would put no restrictions on PCs shaving or altering their bodies anyways they like. However, if I had implemented a social stigma against it like above (males already have it in my games. Dishonored and all that.) the PC would simply have to deal with it (or reek the benefits, as "slutty" women often know how to manipulate men, and a socially exiled Dwarf who is willigng to cut off his beard would get a boost to intimidate checks vs. other dwarves).

Athaniar
2009-10-23, 12:37 PM
Oops, I accidentally happened to post a picture of a nymph completely by accident. Here is an actual female dwarf:

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/GitPLordXavius/FemaleDwarf.png

Pika...
2009-10-23, 12:39 PM
Oops, I accidentally happened to post a picture of a nymph completely by accident. Here is an actual female dwarf:

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/GitPLordXavius/FemaleDwarf.png


LoL.

Here:
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll317/Kirie88/smiley/cookies.gif

You earned it.

Jayabalard
2009-10-23, 01:26 PM
But that's not what they're saying! They just don't want their character to have a beard! So what?It sounds like they don't want to play a dwarf (in that game world) to me.

Jergmo
2009-10-23, 01:41 PM
It sounds like they don't want to play a dwarf (in that game world) to me.

...:smallsigh:

DSCrankshaw
2009-10-23, 01:52 PM
But what if a player says he does not want his Elf to have pointed ears, or his Half-Orc to be green/furry, and be labeled a social outcast by most people/places?

The problem is that elves have always, 100% had pointed ears. There's not a D&D sourcebook, a fantasy novel, or a movie where they don't. It's practically synonymous with elves--it's their most consistent aspect. With dwarf females, though, there's a ton of contradictory evidence. 100% of dwarf females in the 3.5e+ art do not have beards (don't know about 3e, to be honest--I wasn't playing between 2e and 3.5e). Before 3e, though, a lot of dwarf females do have beards. The player can be excused for developing his character concept either way.

Here's my issue: the DM owns the world. He creates the NPCs, the monsters, the quests, the plot, the cultures, the towns, etc. What do the players own? Nothing but their characters. So I say give them as much control over the character as possible. Let them create a background, complete with the name of the town where they grew up, and what sort of quirky little customs are in play there. Let them figure out what sort of social stigma their character may or may not be under there. Once they start adventuring in your towns, the towns can have their own prejudices, but those should be as strange to the characters as their hometowns are to everyone else.

In my game worlds, dwarf females do not have beards. So what if a player came to me with a bearded female dwarf he wanted to play, which all non-dwarves mistake for a male? That's a fun roleplaying hook. In that case, I'd adapt to it. Does it mean all of my dwarf females have to be bearded? Not necessarily. Maybe the player belongs to a rare subrace, or maybe most dwarf females shave. Does the player operate under a stigma in the wider world? That would be part of the negotiation between the player and the DM. I'd let the player decide whether dwarves would regard the PC as socially stigmatized, or whether they're aware and accept that variation among female fashion--the same way both long and short hair are acceptable among women in our society. Weird reactions from non-dwarves is something that the player anticipated (and almost certainly any player wanting to play a bearded female dwarf would have anticipated). That's part of the reason why a player would want to run such a character.

Bayar
2009-10-23, 02:06 PM
But what if a player says he does not want his Elf to have pointed ears, or his Half-Orc to be green/furry, and be labeled a social outcast by most people/places?

So ? Why should this be a problem ? I mean, we have people with various genetic mutations because of recessive genes or whatever in RL. Why should fantasy be different ? Can't people have albino gnomes ?

Athaniar
2009-10-23, 03:07 PM
LoL.

Here:


You earned it.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll317/Kirie88/smiley/cookies.gif
Cookiee accepted.

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 03:13 PM
So ? Why should this be a problem ? I mean, we have people with various genetic mutations because of recessive genes or whatever in RL. Why should fantasy be different ? Can't people have albino gnomes ?

I'd allow you to play a genetic mutant that did or did not have a beard and was female (what bearded ladies?), but you'd have to accept that you would be treated as a freak and all that it implies. If beards are normal on all dwarves then a dwarf without a beard might be taken as undwarvenly and elf-like (the horror), or if only male dwarves have beards then you end up being treated like a bearded lady; if you are willing to accept that fine, if not then play something other than a (un)bearded female dwarf.

Zovc
2009-10-23, 03:26 PM
Cookiee accepted.

It is now a personal goal to witness someone refuse a cookie.

Bayar
2009-10-23, 03:29 PM
I'd allow you to play a genetic mutant that did or did not have a beard and was female (what bearded ladies?), but you'd have to accept that you would be treated as a freak and all that it implies. If beards are normal on all dwarves then a dwarf without a beard might be taken as undwarvenly and elf-like (the horror), or if only male dwarves have beards then you end up being treated like a bearded lady; if you are willing to accept that fine, if not then play something other than a (un)bearded female dwarf.

Wow. Discrimination in D&D is really not that horrible as people think.

So ? You are being treated as being a mutant because you are a bearded dwarf lady, or a round eared elf or a pinkish orc or a small minotaur. So what ? Good alligned society in general discriminate orcs, half orcs, goblins, kobolds, thieflings, changelings, warforged, half dragons...I could go on and on.

What are you saying ? That because of your awkward phisiology compared to the other members of your species you have to be discriminated by everybody ? That you become a mutant of your kind of you happen to be a dwarf and have a disease that prevents you to grow a beard ? Or heavens, want to look like other females of other species so you wont look like a freak to the other races ?


"Hey ! Lets throw tomatoes at that half orc paladin because of his genetic make-up !" "Goblins cannot be good because it says in the great book that they are evil !" "Rar har, you brought shame to our family by being a woman dwarf without a beard ! Prepare for the discrimination !". Roleplay should be encouraged, not limited. If I wanted to play a dwarf girl that shaved her beard in a world where dwarf females grow beards naturally, I should be able to do so without the fear that I could be at any moment be sentenced to the magma shafts.


TL/DR: Dont use fluff to discriminate players.

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 03:43 PM
Wow. Discrimination in D&D is really not that horrible as people think.

So ? You are being treated as being a mutant because you are a bearded dwarf lady, or a round eared elf or a pinkish orc or a small minotaur. So what ? Good alligned society in general discriminate orcs, half orcs, goblins, kobolds, thieflings, changelings, warforged, half dragons...I could go on and on.

What are you saying ? That because of your awkward phisiology compared to the other members of your species you have to be discriminated by everybody ? That you become a mutant of your kind of you happen to be a dwarf and have a disease that prevents you to grow a beard ? Or heavens, want to look like other females of other species so you wont look like a freak to the other races ?


"Hey ! Lets throw tomatoes at that half orc paladin because of his genetic make-up !" "Goblins cannot be good because it says in the great book that they are evil !" "Rar har, you brought shame to our family by being a woman dwarf without a beard ! Prepare for the discrimination !". Roleplay should be encouraged, not limited. If I wanted to play a dwarf girl that shaved her beard in a world where dwarf females grow beards naturally, I should be able to do so without the fear that I could be at any moment be sentenced to the magma shafts.


TL/DR: Dont use fluff to discriminate players.

I'm saying you make your character in the world. If I play an elf that is blue skinned in a world where elves aren't blue skinned I should expect to be treated as if I was odd. The exact effects of this would vary; for example dwarves tend to be strongly social and unlikely to discriminate against one of their own so you might just get mistaken for a male.

Mine isn't to discourage roleplaying but to remind you that fluff, which exists for roleplaying purposes, does have roleplaying impact. If you choose to have your character look different then your character looks different, and other people will respond.

If you have brilliant, hot pink hair (and yes I've had players have brilliant, hot pink hair before) then you are treated as having brilliant, hot pink hair. People will remember there was a guy who has brilliant, hot pink hair in town and will quite possibly stare at your hair and go "what?" If that's what you want good, if not think first.

tl;dr I am only saying you will be treated as an oddity and to be prepared to role-play it. Fluff exists for role-playing purposes and the player is not in vacuum.

Paulus
2009-10-23, 03:49 PM
Such a serious discussion on the aesthetically factored qualities of racism in D&D...

and now. I write something silly in white text. EH hem. ... Dwarf nose hair should be braided too.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 03:51 PM
Holy crap, I figured there was no way a thread managed to actually talk about dwarven facial hair for 7 pages, and must be on Dwarf Fortress or Elf Hating by now.

I guess I was wrong O.o

Hal
2009-10-23, 03:53 PM
You people and your serious discussion of RP elements. I want more pictures of dwarven ladies! (Actual dwarves, not Lord Xavius's "dwarf.")

Zovc
2009-10-23, 03:56 PM
You people and your serious discussion of RP elements. I want more pictures of dwarven ladies! (Actual dwarves, not Lord Xavius's "dwarf.")

The cute, beardless ones.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 04:03 PM
Such a serious discussion on the aesthetically factored qualities of racism in D&D...

and now. I write something silly in white text. EH hem. ... Dwarf nose hair should be braided too.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/SavageSpecies.png



So subtle, but it is there.


ps. I believe I have seen braided Dwarf nose hairs in art ironically.

Zovc
2009-10-23, 04:09 PM
Is that a Bugbear?

Bayar
2009-10-23, 04:12 PM
You people and your serious discussion of RP elements. I want more pictures of dwarven ladies! (Actual dwarves, not Lord Xavius's "dwarf.")

Cute dwarven ladies:
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs14/300W/f/2006/360/8/a/Lineage_2_Dwarf_by_bunjikun.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w21/fi34_2007/LineageII/dwarf5.jpg
http://th09.deviantart.net/fs11/300W/i/2006/244/4/2/dwarf_L2_by_lolamamy.jpg


Less cute dwarven ladies:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3343722099_1db3cfba3c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/2930179067_f19644d4cb.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/3483228510_c9a2a9906d.jpg?v=0


So, how do the players like them ? Loli or lardy ?


Edit:

Is that a Bugbear?

That is an orc, from Savage species. Truly made me go WTF the first time I seen it.

hamishspence
2009-10-23, 04:13 PM
Its an orc. Hence the "no orcs" sign as a hint that the character has problems to deal with.

Zovc
2009-10-23, 04:19 PM
So, how do the players like them ? Loli or lardy ?

That is an orc, from Savage species. Truly made me go WTF the first time I seen it.

Lady, definitely. The 'dwarves' from Lineage 2 are not dwarves, they're lolis.

I knew it was supposed to be an orc, it just reminds me of the MM Bugbear artwork.

hamishspence
2009-10-23, 04:21 PM
MM bugbears seemed to have a longer, spikeier hairdo.

Mostly, bugbears look hairier than orcs. With a more "muzzle-like" face.

Paulus
2009-10-23, 04:22 PM
Cute dwarven ladies:
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs14/300W/f/2006/360/8/a/Lineage_2_Dwarf_by_bunjikun.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w21/fi34_2007/LineageII/dwarf5.jpg
http://th09.deviantart.net/fs11/300W/i/2006/244/4/2/dwarf_L2_by_lolamamy.jpg


Less cute dwarven ladies:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3343722099_1db3cfba3c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/2930179067_f19644d4cb.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/3483228510_c9a2a9906d.jpg?v=0


So, how do the players like them ? Loli or lardy ?



Cute... but there is no way those are adults. ESPECIALLY Compared to the lineage male dwarfs. ..........in fact side by side it's just... just... HEEEYY AQUALUNG!

Pika...
2009-10-23, 04:24 PM
So, how do the players like them ? Loli or lardy ?

So do Dwarf women like pizza?

Zovc
2009-10-23, 04:26 PM
You must be kidding, EVERYONE LIKES PIZZA!

(Will be surprised if anyone gets the reference.)

Bayar
2009-10-23, 04:31 PM
Cute... but there is no way those are adults. ESPECIALLY Compared to the lineage male dwarfs. ..........in fact side by side it's just... just... HEEEYY AQUALUNG!

What ? They are at the legal age of consent ! I mean, would you like a Santa Clauss hit by the Reverse Gender spell to be your game avatar ? Or his cute little helper that goes around bludgeoning random monsters with her ridiculouly big halberd ?

Paulus
2009-10-23, 04:35 PM
What ? They are at the legal age of consent ! I mean, would you like a Santa Clauss hit by the Reverse Gender spell to be your game avatar ? Or his cute little helper that goes around bludgeoning random monsters with her ridiculouly big halberd ?

hmm watch a woman who has spent her entire life culturally steeped in raw will for the fight do battle upon the fields of glory for honor and wealth, dieing perhaps in some ghastly manner with true bravery and heart!!

or little Susie from elementary school being slaughtered by monsters.

. . .
They have pigtails for bahamut's sake!

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 04:41 PM
Little susie with her oversized axe! Down with physics!

Thatguyoverther
2009-10-23, 04:43 PM
I always thought of dwarves as naked mole rats. They live underground their entire lives making tunnels. Every dwarven settlement would have one Queen, and with the exception of a suitor all the other dwarves in the colony are sterile. It would also explain why only male dwarves are ever seen. The hand full of females are all busy creating the next generation of beer swilling miners.

So I guess a female dwarf would look a little like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Nacktmull.jpg/800px-Nacktmull.jpg

Bayar
2009-10-23, 04:44 PM
hmm watch a woman who has spent her entire life culturally steeped in raw will for the fight do battle upon the fields of glory for honor and wealth, dieing perhaps in some ghastly manner with true bravery and heart!!

or little Susie from elementary school being slaughtered by monsters.

. . .
They have pigtails for bahamut's sake!

But little Suzie over there has a Talim Glaive and full A grade armor !


... wait, they released the S grades a long time ago, that quote might be out of date, but whatever !


I'd prefer little Suzie because she can beat the monsters to a bloody husk, cannibalize string and suede and steel out of their corpses and look good doing it !



I always thought of dwarves as naked mole rats. They live underground their entire lives making tunnels. Every dwarven settlement would have one Queen, and with the exception of a suitor all the other dwarves in the colony are sterile. It would also explain why only male dwarves are ever seen. The hand full of females are all busy creating the next generation of beer swilling miners.

So I guess a female dwarf would look a little like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Nacktmull.jpg/800px-Nacktmull.jpg

CANT UNSEE !!!!

Paulus
2009-10-23, 04:51 PM
But little Suzie over there has a Talim Glaive and full A grade armor !

... wait, they released the S grades a long time ago, that quote might be out of date, but whatever !

I'd prefer little Suzie because she can beat the monsters to a bloody husk, cannibalize string and suede and steel out of their corpses and look good doing it !

Oh no doubt it would be cute and even would be hilarious to see.
for battle.

but for RP... it'd be just... just...........

HEY AQUALUNG!!

Grumman
2009-10-23, 05:11 PM
Oops, I accidentally happened to post a picture of a nymph completely by accident. Here is an actual female dwarf:

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/GitPLordXavius/FemaleDwarf.png
"This image or video violated our terms of use"

Do I really want to know?

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 05:13 PM
"This image or video violated our terms of use"

Do I really want to know?it was the nymph image with an ms paint beard put on

LibraryOgre
2009-10-23, 07:16 PM
DM has spent weeks, months, or in some cases getting on years (I believe I am at about one and a half) making his campaign setting. Player just walks up and says "No! I will ignore everything you say, I simply don't care that it messes with the fluff, story, cultures, etc of your hard worked world. In truth all I care about is killing monsters, so get to work with encounters DM!". Yeah....no. This is where I meant it would probably be better to find a new DM. That, or the DM may choose to kick out the player.

And if it were for female dwarves having beards, you'd have a point. If your DM says "Female dwarves can't grow beards", then you're throwing away his material if you say "Well, mine does." However, if he says they do have beards, and you don't want your dwarf to have beards, you do what everyone growing a beard who doesn't want it does: You shave it. Or wax it. Or pluck it. Or apply an alchemical depilatory creme. There's all sorts of ways not to have a beard when most folks do.

maijstral
2009-10-23, 07:30 PM
What a lot of people seem to be missing is that Gygax explicitly states that dwarven males are attracted to beardless females. This explains why the dwarves are a dwindling race. The Thunder Blessing in the Forgotten Realms that increased the dwarven birth rate? It was due to Moradin removing the women's beards.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 07:45 PM
And if it were for female dwarves having beards, you'd have a point. If your DM says "Female dwarves can't grow beards", then you're throwing away his material if you say "Well, mine does." However, if he says they do have beards, and you don't want your dwarf to have beards, you do what everyone growing a beard who doesn't want it does: You shave it. Or wax it. Or pluck it. Or apply an alchemical depilatory creme. There's all sorts of ways not to have a beard when most folks do.

I'm willing to bet that people who don't want bearded lady dwarves won't really see that as a good compromise, and are likely to simply not bother playing a Dwarf instead, really.

In a very real way, for a lot of people, insisting on Dwarven Ladies having beards is pretty close to saying; "Don't Play One." Personally, if you're going to be made to be a beard-grower either way, you may as well be a Male and dodge a lot of ridicule. If your group is the type to take the mickey based on the fact that your females have beards ANYWAY, then really it's abandon-the-dwarf time for me.

I'd only ever really consider playing a bearded Dwarf Lady in a specifically satirical game. If the Dm of anything else insists that the ladies are bearded? Well, it's simpler just to roll something else really.

Matthew
2009-10-23, 08:27 PM
What a lot of people seem to be missing is that Gygax explicitly states that dwarven males are attracted to beardless females. This explains why the dwarves are a dwindling race. The Thunder Blessing in the Forgotten Realms that increased the dwarven birth rate? It was due to Moradin removing the women's beards.

Indeed; despite the propaganda to the contrary, actual male dwarves are less attracted to their bearded females than unbearded females of any other race... apparently. So, clearly, if dwarves were playing Dungeons & Dragons they would fully support unbearded female dwarves as the default... well the male ones probably would at any rate... :smallbiggrin:

The way I see it, in the "real world" human population there are women who are capable of growing beards, whether you raise or lower the incidence in a fantasy dwarf population is up to you, but even if the overwhelming majority of dwarf women are so afflicted, some will not suffer in that way.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-23, 08:30 PM
See, part of the reason I like bearded dwarven females is, in addition to making amusing songs, it also heightens the sense that dwarves are NOT HUMAN. They're something other, with alien motivations and lifeways. While some parts are understandable to humans, many things are not. Dwarves finding beards attractive is one of those things.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 08:39 PM
Again, can we all just agree to disagree? :smallsmile:


http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif





See, part of the reason I like bearded dwarven females is, in addition to making amusing songs, it also heightens the sense that dwarves are NOT HUMAN. They're something other, with alien motivations and lifeways. While some parts are understandable to humans, many things are not. Dwarves finding beards attractive is one of those things.

Agreed. Too many people just play each race as a different form of Human.

Actually, no, they all play them just as they do Human or any other character. At least I try to be different with my Elves and Kobolds.

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 08:56 PM
Mine end up being rather viking-esque... :smallredface:

What I like vikings, they had a rich culture of myth which fantasy draws heavily on.

My humans tend to be mages and obsessed with magical knowledge, or knights in shining armor. My dwarves are more brash and cruder warriors who focus more on the virtue inherent in the clash of arms.

Matthew
2009-10-23, 09:41 PM
See, part of the reason I like bearded dwarven females is, in addition to making amusing songs, it also heightens the sense that dwarves are NOT HUMAN. They're something other, with alien motivations and lifeways. While some parts are understandable to humans, many things are not. Dwarves finding beards attractive is one of those things.

Yeah, I get that, but it is too comedic for my preferences. Also, these days I prefer to play up the surface similarities of dwarves and elves to humans, leaving the sense of "alien other" to be conveyed by more significant distinctions. Indeed, elves in my campaign world no longer have pointed ears. :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-10-23, 09:42 PM
Again, can we all just agree to disagree? :smallsmile:
http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif

Agreed. Too many people just play each race as a different form of Human.

Actually, no, they all play them just as they do Human or any other character. At least I try to be different with my Elves and Kobolds.

technically they ARE human... because they can interbreed with humans, they are just a human "race"...
Just like caucasians and latinos can interbreed, thus they are both humans. While humans and gorillas cannot interbreed, thus they are a different species.

So if you want them to be "something alien" you should first ban half breeds.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 09:55 PM
technically they ARE human... because they can interbreed with humans, they are just a human "race"...
Just like caucasians and latinos can interbreed, thus they are both humans. While humans and gorillas cannot interbreed, thus they are a different species.

So if you want them to be "something alien" you should first ban half breeds.

Well, according to WotC there are no Dwarves and Human half-breeds.

And that has to do more with a magic fantasy setting than genetics, but then again I am just beating that same horse again. :smallsigh:

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 09:59 PM
Well, according to WotC there are no Dwarves and Human half-breeds.

And that has to do more with a magic fantasy setting than genetics, but then again I am just beating that same horse again. :smallsigh:

There will be next year; Bald and sterile ones, funnily enough.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 10:01 PM
There will be next year; Bald and sterile ones, funnily enough.

I do not go by that silly 4.o stuff. They have officially tried to completely break off from D&D's roots (Tokien's works). While to some that is great, to some of us it's not.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-23, 10:15 PM
No no no, they've been around since 2nd Edition I think. The Muls of Dark Sun are what Tiki's referring to.

Pika...
2009-10-23, 10:20 PM
No no no, they've been around since 2nd Edition I think. The Muls of Dark Sun are what Tiki's referring to.

Oh yeah. My apologies.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-23, 10:35 PM
technically they ARE human... because they can interbreed with humans, they are just a human "race"...
Just like caucasians and latinos can interbreed, thus they are both humans. While humans and gorillas cannot interbreed, thus they are a different species.

So if you want them to be "something alien" you should first ban half breeds.

See, half-elves have always had an odd place, IMO; forget Elrond, the idea of a human who is part elf is centuries old; Merlin was supposed to be part demon, and Skuld (from Hrolf Kraki's Saga) and Hogni (from Thidrekssaga) were both half-elves. Elves, in that context, were not strictly a biological race. They were supernatural beings. Conception with an elf was not a biological event, but a magical one, akin to copulating with a demon. Would you argue that Succubi and Balor are also humans, since they can create half-fiends?

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 10:36 PM
I loved muls, although I normally make my own half-dwarves. If we look at them, though, elves and dwarves in fantasy are human's closest kin; usually crafted intentionally in similar forms, or literally related, etc. So it makes sense for them to have similarities. If you want to make them less "human" do something to their society or do something that directly affects male and female dwarves directly (like making dwarves into rock creatures).

Solaris
2009-10-23, 10:38 PM
So be it. (http://community.livejournal.com/deleterius/3119013.html?view=66351269#t66351269) I can guarantee that once you read this, you will never have any unrelated worries again.

AAARGH! YOU! SUFFER! ALL WILL SUFFER! THE WORLD WILL SUFFER! YOU! YOU WILL SUFFER MOST OF ALL! BURN KILLDESTROYALLBEAUTYMUSTBURNSUFFERSUFFERAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*Thud*


Oh yeah. My apologies.

I think I saw 'em in the Dragonlance setting at one point. Races of Krynn, maybe?

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-23, 11:04 PM
You must be kidding, EVERYONE LIKES PIZZA!


Elves don't.

A few things:

Anyone else itching to play an all dwarf game now?
Cleric-5/Ordained Champion-5/Techsmith-10!

Has anyone considered exactly how dwarven communities survive?

If elves are supposed to be a boyish and flat in the chest, what the heck happened to the drow?!

Paulus
2009-10-23, 11:37 PM
Anyone else itching to play an all dwarf game now?


Hi ho... hi ho... it's off to slay we go, we'll back our packs and run through traps, hi ho, hi ho!
Hi ho, hi ho, for gems and metal's golden glow, wizard books won't get second looks, Hi ho, hi ho!
Hi ho, hi ho, we'll axe the giant's toe, we're not barging but we've slayed a dragon, hi ho, hi ho!
Hi ho, hi ho, we'll drink away everything we know, glory for the bearded few is over due, hi ho! Hi hhhhooooooo!!

Jergmo
2009-10-23, 11:42 PM
Elves don't.

A few things:

Anyone else itching to play an all dwarf game now?
Cleric-5/Ordained Champion-5/Techsmith-10!

Has anyone considered exactly how dwarven communities survive?

If elves are supposed to be a boyish and flat in the chest, what the heck happened to the drow?!

http://images.elfwood.com/art/t/s/tsnyder/drow_good_girl.jpg
Evil Is Sexy. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy)

DSCrankshaw
2009-10-24, 12:43 AM
Anyone else itching to play an all dwarf game now?

There's a 4e, all-divine game starting up on the play-by-post boards that looks like it'll be all dwarf too. Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128752). I don't think they're taking any new entries, though.

Solaris
2009-10-24, 12:57 AM
Elves don't.

...

If elves are supposed to be a boyish and flat in the chest, what the heck happened to the drow?!

And we just hit upon the real reason for the elf-drow schism. Drow have discernible genders and love pizza. Hence, they had to be banished. They're not really evil, they're all chaotic good pizza-lovers with actual secondary sexual characteristics. The evil thing's just elf propaganda.

Zaydos
2009-10-24, 01:00 AM
And we just hit upon the real reason for the elf-drow schism. Drow have discernible genders and love pizza. Hence, they had to be banished. They're not really evil, they're all chaotic good pizza-lovers with actual secondary sexual characteristics. The evil thing's just elf propaganda.

This makes me happy.

But yes I now want to play a dwarf only campaign that explores dwarven culture. But got a gestalt planescape thing or another few ideas on the backburner for DMing and they come first (also I'd want to play not DM this but I do prefer DMing).

Cracklord
2009-10-24, 01:52 AM
See, I personally make my dwarves dark-skinned and sound like Barry White. Or, if I am not the DM, and dwarves are played stereotypically, then I make my dwarf sound like Sean Connery.

As to beards, well either one works. Dwarf males without beards is wrong, but dwarf females... well both ways works.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-24, 02:08 AM
Again, can we all just agree to disagree?

Nobody on the internet has ever agreed to disagree.

Ever.

Jergmo
2009-10-24, 02:15 AM
See, I personally make my dwarves dark-skinned and sound like Barry White. Or, if I am not the DM, and dwarves are played stereotypically, then I make my dwarf sound like Sean Connery.

As to beards, well either one works. Dwarf males without beards is wrong, but dwarf females... well both ways works.

Sweet. Sean Connery's voice makes everything sound cooler! Yes. Everything.

Personally, I have them as being Germanic with pale skin and dark hair. In the main area of the campaign, anyway; elves and dwarves vary by region, like with humans. (And they only drink because that means clean water)

Solaris
2009-10-24, 02:33 AM
See, I personally make my dwarves dark-skinned and sound like Barry White. Or, if I am not the DM, and dwarves are played stereotypically, then I make my dwarf sound like Sean Connery.

As to beards, well either one works. Dwarf males without beards is wrong, but dwarf females... well both ways works.


Sweet. Sean Connery's voice makes everything sound cooler! Yes. Everything.

Personally, I have them as being Germanic with pale skin and dark hair. *Snipped blasphemies*

I do both. 0_o

Ravens_cry
2009-10-24, 02:33 AM
Nobody on the internet has ever agreed to disagree.

Ever.
Well, I am not so sure about that, but I suppose we can agree to disagree.:smallamused:

Jergmo
2009-10-24, 02:42 AM
Well, I am not so sure about that, but I suppose we can agree to disagree.:smallamused:

If you agree with someone on the internet, are you disagreeing to disagree?

Solaris
2009-10-24, 02:44 AM
If you agree with someone on the internet, are you disagreeing to disagree?

No, you're dividing by zero and thereby dooming us all.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-24, 02:54 AM
http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/blogger/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/yousonofa.jpg
In the words of a drunken Oscar Wilde,
"Oops."

Jergmo
2009-10-24, 03:15 AM
*Cackles madly*