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Zovc
2009-10-21, 12:03 AM
From what I understand, the human's bonus feat is pretty valuable in terms of optimization. Are humans considered the best race for optimizers? What about among non-optimizers?

In my setting, the races available to my players, for the first campaign, will be Human, Dwarf, and Halfling and/or Gnome. What can be done to make sure these races are balanced? Are they?

I am considering offering Strongheart Halflings in place of SRD Halflings, but I don't know if that's actually a good idea. What about Dwarves and Gnomes, what should be done for them?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 12:08 AM
From what I understand, the human's bonus feat is pretty valuable in terms of optimization. Are humans considered the best race for optimizers? What about among non-optimizers?

In my setting, the races available to my players, for the first campaign, will be Human, Dwarf, and Halfling and/or Gnome. What can be done to make sure these races are balanced? Are they?

I am considering offering Strongheart Halflings in place of SRD Halflings, but I don't know if that's actually a good idea. What about Dwarves and Gnomes, what should be done for them?

Whisper Gnome is also awesome. Strongheart halflings are great. Dwarves...I dunno. They're not actually bad, but not awesome either. If you want to pull them up to human/strongheart/whisper gnome levels of badassery, give them the bonus skill points trait that humans get.

It's not terribly powerful, and it's not likely to combo into something gamebreaking, but it is a little nifty thing to get to push them up a touch.

Races like half-elf and half-orc are actually weaker, imo.

arguskos
2009-10-21, 12:09 AM
Dwarves are fine. Strongheart is on the same level as Human and Dwarf. Gnome... I'm unsure about, but my gut says they're fine. Sinfire, Doc Roc, Eldarial or some other well know theorizer can prove it to you though.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 12:16 AM
Dwarves have two challenges. First, most of their bonuses are limited to stone and metal. This isn't bad, really, but it's still inferior to flat bonuses, and frankly, even flat bonuses to skills like appraise are not all that important.

Secondly, and more importantly, is the 20ft movement rate. For a medium creature, this blows. Sure, armor/load doesn't reduce this further...but your bog standard human with either of those penalties moves at 20ft, but has the ability to drop the junk and move faster. The dwarf doesn't.

The only really nice thing they have is the bonus save against spells and SLAs.

Dwarves certainly don't end up actually looking terrible, there are worse races by far, but when compared against one of the other listed races there, which have nice advantages and essentially no disadvantages, they come up looking just a touch weaker.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 12:17 AM
There're no elves or orcs on the continent that the players are starting on.

Giving the dwarves extra skill points doesn't sound like a bad idea. I thought about using the DMG's example custom race, Gold Dwarves.

Instead of +2 Con, -2 Cha, they get +2 Con, -2 Dex. Also, they get +1 against aberrations instead of Orcs and Goblinoids. It wouldn't make sense for them to be well-trained against races they've never encountered, where as you can argue that the dwarves have a zeal against otherworldly things. Perhaps the bonus should be Aberrations and Outsiders? I wouldn't expect either to be excessively common, especially not in low-level adventures.


Also see the Dwarf monster listing.

+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Low-light Vision: A dwarf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on fortitude saving throws.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against aberrations and outsiders.
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing
...and extra skill points as humans?

I removed the dodge bonus against giants, made the saving throws against poison just a bonus to fortitude saves, made the appraise and craft bonuses apply to all checks instead of specific ones, and replaced darkvision with low-light vision. I wouldn't expect dwarves to do much underground dwelling in this setting. Stonecunning was also removed.

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-21, 12:17 AM
Humans are good as a general race, but if you want to truly optimize any given class, they rarely are the best.

And a grey elf gets everything a human gets and more. The +2 Int works out to an extra skill point per level and chaos shuffle lets you get 3 more feats that a human. You can also grab Faeire Mysteries Initiate for Int to HP (instead of Con) and generally come out ahead in that category as well.

Eloel
2009-10-21, 12:59 AM
Azurins, if you have the slightest bit of Incarnum need, is superior to Human, and thus is among the top 1-2.

Medic
2009-10-21, 07:47 AM
Secondly, and more importantly, is the 20ft movement rate. For a medium creature, this blows. Sure, armor/load doesn't reduce this further...but your bog standard human with either of those penalties moves at 20ft, but has the ability to drop the junk and move faster. The dwarf doesn't.

I would agree but when the character you're playing is a full plate wearer I would prefer the dwarf. For anything else its definitely better to be a human.

To the original poster:

Strongheart halfling is better than human in many cases simply for the +1 to hit and AC then a human especially for ranged or sneak builds that don't require a huge strength to do their damage.

Cyclocone
2009-10-21, 08:46 AM
From what I understand, the human's bonus feat is pretty valuable in terms of optimization. Are humans considered the best race for optimizers? What about among non-optimizers?

In my setting, the races available to my players, for the first campaign, will be Human, Dwarf, and Halfling and/or Gnome. What can be done to make sure these races are balanced? Are they?

I am considering offering Strongheart Halflings in place of SRD Halflings, but I don't know if that's actually a good idea. What about Dwarves and Gnomes, what should be done for them?

What books are allowed?

Humans are kinda meh. They can do anything, but for serious min-maxing there is, as they say, always a bigger fish.
In core the bonus feat isn't that great, because there aren't enough worthwile feats. If you throw in splatbooks, it becomes more valuable; but then you also get races like Silverbrow Human and Deep Imaskari that are just plain better than their hapless muggle brethren.

Dwarves are OK the way they are. Ironically, they're probably the best Wizard race in core (assuming you don't count the MM as 'core' for this purpose anyway); extra HP and a boost to saves is awesome for a Wizard. Much better than a feat and some skill points.
Darkvision is always handy and +1 to attack against orcs and goblins is great at low levels, where that's all you ever fight anyway (well not all, but I'm sure you've experienced unimaginative DM's as well:smallwink:).
Also, the Dorf drawbacks doesn't matter much to a Wizard. 20 ft. movement might hamper a meatball, sure; but when you have expeditious retreat, overland flight, magic-super-horsey etc? (And noone gives a crap about CHA anyway)
And for non-casters there's always Dorf Barbarian, just sayin'.

Gnomes are OK too, for much the same reason as Dorfs.

Halflings are also pretty good. +2 DEX small size and +to saves is nothing to sneeze at.

Really, the races that need a serious boost are Elves, Half-Elves and [Half]-Orcs; and if you aren't using them, you probably don't care.

Amphetryon
2009-10-21, 09:20 AM
Water Orcs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) are often touted as perfectly fine options for non-casters.

Desert Half-Orcs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) are superior in many/most ways to standard Half-Orcs.

Jungle Halflings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleHalflings) are pretty spiffy.

Aquatic Half-Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticHalfElves) are strictly better than PH Half-Elves while simultaneously occupying a unique niche unless you're venturing outside the SRD for races.

Telonius
2009-10-21, 09:27 AM
Kobolds are the tops for theoretical optimization. You can probably make a Pun-Pun without one (it's been awhile since I've checked) but they're the ones that can do it earliest.

Even without His Omnipotence, Kobolds get a heavy dose of awesome from being Dragonwrought. Add in Greater Draconic Ritual, and you can make a Mystic Theurge that is actually worth it - since it doesn't lose any Sorcerer levels.

Gnomes are excellent if you want to build an illusionist (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864158/Shadowcraft_Illusionist__Killer_Gnome).

Zovc
2009-10-21, 09:29 AM
What books are allowed?

Any. I'm also willing to (somewhat inclined to, actually) use/make homebrew versions of the races.

Cyrion
2009-10-21, 09:58 AM
My beef with the non-human races has always been that their favored classes are poorly chosen relative to other racial bonuses. The elf's favored class is wizard, but the PH elf has nothing to recommend it as a wizard from a mechanics perspective. Similarly, giving the gnome the bard as a favored class just seemed like a blatant attempt to promote a weak base class. I'm surprised nobody got stuck with monk...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 09:58 AM
As a caster, if you're going to take the speed hit, you might as well go gnome. Leaving aside the awesomeness that is Whisper Gnome, even the core gnome boosts con, just as the dwarf does, and dumps str, which also worthless to a caster. Possibly more than cha, given A. polymorph makes it irrelevant and B. UMD works off cha.

Thus, stat wise, the gnome is at least as good of a choice. Ditto movement, since armor is irrelevant.

Bonus wise, gnomes get the small size, which is awesome for casters. Better for the ranged touch attacks, better AC, and you don't care about smaller weapon size.

Now, we get to the good stuff. Unless you are dumping illusion, the +1DC to illusion spells is great. The boosted save against them is aright too, but not amazing. Better, you get a selection of spells as SLAs. None of these are amazingly powerful, but hey, more spells is always a plus.

Thus, dwarves are probably third best Phb race as wizard. That extra feat for humans is a huge enabler for combos, especially in sessions without flaws.

Edit: Possibly fourth. Halfling might be an excellent choice for orb/ray wizards. Dex bonus + small size is great, you get a bonus to saves against *everything*, and some decent skill bonuses. Strongheart is still going to be better if available, though.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 11:11 AM
If this helps, this is what I'm thinking of as roles in society.

Humans: Still jacks of all trades. Usually farmers or craftsmen, but also prone to being soldiers, there is nothing stopping humans from being devout or studying arcane arts, either.

Dwarves: Seldom study arcane arts, and usually avoid farming or other professions of that sort. Well suited to crafting and warfare. No good reason they can't be clerics.

Halflings: Tailored to farming, trading, and scouting. Seldom are clerics or wizards.

Gnomes: Practically obsessed with magic, occasionally craftsmen or merchants.

Stormageddon
2009-10-21, 03:36 PM
My beef with the non-human races has always been that their favored classes are poorly chosen relative to other racial bonuses. The elf's favored class is wizard, but the PH elf has nothing to recommend it as a wizard from a mechanics perspective. Similarly, giving the gnome the bard as a favored class just seemed like a blatant attempt to promote a weak base class. I'm surprised nobody got stuck with monk...

I think the phb was favoring fluff over game mechanics. But I have to disagree about the Elf wizard at low levels it could be useful to be weilding a longsword (when you run out of spells) and the dex is nice but small boost to your ac. Later levels it makes no differences but than again your a high level wizard what more could you want.

Zovc
2009-10-21, 03:43 PM
I will not be using favored classes or multiclass penalties. I will list favored classes for flavor (and 'backwards compatibility') purposes, but will not actually utilize them.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 03:43 PM
Why would a wizard ever bother with a longsword over a crossbow?

Being proficient with a weapon does not mean you are effective with a weapon.

Frosty
2009-10-21, 03:52 PM
Why would a wizard ever bother with a longsword over a crossbow?

Being proficient with a weapon does not mean you are effective with a weapon.

As Varsuuvius famouly put it...

HCL
2009-10-21, 09:12 PM
Why would I bother with a longsword when I can be small size, have 4 more constitution than the elf, and cast Color Spray at +1 Save DC?

ericgrau
2009-10-22, 07:22 AM
From what I understand, the human's bonus feat is pretty valuable in terms of optimization. Are humans considered the best race for optimizers? What about among non-optimizers?

In my setting, the races available to my players, for the first campaign, will be Human, Dwarf, and Halfling and/or Gnome. What can be done to make sure these races are balanced? Are they?

I am considering offering Strongheart Halflings in place of SRD Halflings, but I don't know if that's actually a good idea. What about Dwarves and Gnomes, what should be done for them?

1. Yes
2. Not as much, but still good.
3. Those 4 are close enough. They're all fairly solid races. The ones you left out are the ones considered the "weaker" races, but even those aren't too far behind.

As for dwarves, they're considered the uber race not b/c they have a million semi-useless special abilities, but b/c they have a +2 to the most important ability, a -2 to the least important ability, a +2 to most saves and a million semi-useless special abilities.

In your case, assuming there's not much optimization going on, dwarves would probably be on top, humans 2nd, and gnomes and halflings would be tied for 3rd. But it's all very close like I said. If you want to do anything for gnomes and halflings then put it in the form of minor special abilities or skill bonuses. Not any substantial boosts.

Roles: Yeah, that'd work fine.

Zovc
2009-10-22, 08:49 AM
As for dwarves, they're considered the uber race not b/c they have a million semi-useless special abilities, but b/c they have a +2 to the most important ability, a -2 to the least important ability, a +2 to most saves and a million semi-useless special abilities.

What if I made it +2 Con, -2 Dex and 'improved' dwarves (as in post #5)?


In your case, assuming there's not much optimization going on, dwarves would probably be on top, humans 2nd, and gnomes and halflings would be tied for 3rd. But it's all very close like I said. If you want to do anything for gnomes and halflings then put it in the form of minor special abilities or skill bonuses. Not any substantial boosts.

How would that adjustment + turning halflings into strongheart halflings affect your 'tiers'?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 08:53 AM
That would actually probably be worse. The sheer amount of dex skills vs cha skills makes the former probably more desirable than skill points, and dex has other uses for...pretty much everyone. Cha does not.

jiriku
2009-10-22, 09:06 AM
What if I made it +2 Con, -2 Dex and 'improved' dwarves (as in post #5)?

How would that adjustment + turning halflings into strongheart halflings affect your 'tiers'?

-2 Dex is substantially worse than -2 Cha, especially if the typical dwarf is a martial character, since martial characters typically value Dex above Cha. However, you're adding lots of improvements. Honestly, when it comes to dwarves, I'd say don't fix what isn't broken.

Unless in a heavily optimized environment, the two halfling races are power-equivalent, since +1 to all saves is a slightly more powerful than the benefit provided by most feats.

Zovc
2009-10-22, 09:10 AM
...but ericgrau said Dwarves would be the best... and I understand that Dexterity is more important to more characters than Charisma... That's why Dwarves have some of the best ability modifiers in unoptimized environments.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 09:19 AM
And gnomes have +con, -str. In other words, at least as good as +con, -cha for caster classes, and arguably superior. For sorcs and bards, definitely superior.

I'd say that humans are marginally better in an optimized environment than dwarves...and ditto for a certain few other races, like whisper gnome, etc. Dwarves are not particularily weak, though. It's close enough that modification isn't really required, and they certainly don't need to be gimped.