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minchazo
2009-10-21, 08:20 AM
The Master Thrower can take the "Weak Spot" trick at 5th level, allowing him to hit with ranged touch attacks, but he doesn't get his Str bonus to damage.

What are the best options to boost damage with this trick?

Could I use Power Throw to add to damage, even if I can't add Str to damage?

Would the Targeteer variant of Fighter (from Dragon 310) be able to use Vital Aim to add his Dex to damage with Weak Spot?

Ernir
2009-10-21, 08:38 AM
Power Throw should work. It only forbids adding strength to damage, so anything else should be OK.

Now, when not adding strength bonus to damage with Master Thrower, I prefer mixing Palm Throw, Bloodstorm Blade, Stormguard Warrior and Dungeoncrasher. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2009-10-21, 08:49 AM
Warblade 5/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4

Bloodstorm Blade lets you treat your thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks. Your weapons also automatically return to your hands after each attack, which means you only need one magic weapon. Combine with some other melee combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115), and you're set. For example, the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646).

tonberrian
2009-10-21, 04:47 PM
A Master Thrower Weak Spot build generally wants a source(s) of bonus damage somehow. Sneak attack, Sudden Strike (which is ibasically dentical to Sneak Attack for our purposes - there are only a handful of flanking options that would work for ranged attacks), and static bonuses are your best bets. If you decide not to go BsB, Psychic Warrior is an option. Telekinetic Boomerang from RotW will get your thrown weapons to return immediately after attacking, and Prescience, Offensive is delicious bonus damage, even though it's rather low without more PsyWar levels. You could also check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) for some stats to bonus. Good choices would be Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium) and Shadow Blade (ToB, needs a Shadow Hand stance to get - use Assassin's Stance for Sneak Attack) for Dex to damage, Swashbuckler 3 for Int, and Swordsage 4 for Wis (if you're dipping, choose Desert Wind for the discipline and use the Flashing Sun maneuver).

Other methods to increase damage? Get more arms (racial or Girallon's Blessing), and if you add Dex to damage, try to get Divine Agility - the best enhancement bonus to Dexterity available pre-epic. Get more attacks via Master Thrower's Palm Throw (NOT Doubletoss), Rapid Shot, Haste, TWF (or MWF, as the case may be), the Flashing Sun Maneuver, or even Time Stands Still (if you can get it).

As for the Targeteer variant, I wouldn't know since I don't have Dragon 310, but if it replaces Strength to damage, then it wouldn't work with Weak Spot.

minchazo
2009-10-22, 08:34 AM
@tonberrian

Thanks for that link! I've already looked through it twice since I saw it! It sounds like if it 'replaces' strength, it won't count. But if it adds to strength for damage, it should.

Stegyre
2009-10-22, 10:41 AM
Bloodstorm Blade lets you treat your thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks. Your weapons also automatically return to your hands after each attack, which means you only need one magic weapon.Another poster recently noted (correctly) that you must expend an Iron Heart strike each time you use this ability, so it isn't quite automatic, although with the Warblade recovery mechanic, it may as well be.

(PM is probably well aware of that requirement, but it was news to me when I read it, as it was to the player making that post, so others may be similarly unaware. The bottom line is that your BSBs should always have Warblade levels and ready some IH strikes in their WB maneuvers.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-22, 10:51 AM
A good one to pair with Weak Spot is Sneaky Shot. Even better, it works on Barbarians, because it isn't making them Flat-Footed, it is flat denying them Dex Bonus to AC. That means, in addition to any SA dice you have, you have ignored the majority of the ways to increase AC that exist. Unless they've got something silly like a Deflection bonus to AC, their AC is 10 + any size modifiers. Period. Yea, TRY missing that.

Person_Man
2009-10-22, 11:27 AM
Another poster recently noted (correctly) that you must expend an Iron Heart strike each time you use this ability, so it isn't quite automatic, although with the Warblade recovery mechanic, it may as well be.

(PM is probably well aware of that requirement, but it was news to me when I read it, as it was to the player making that post, so others may be similarly unaware. The bottom line is that your BSBs should always have Warblade levels and ready some IH strikes in their WB maneuvers.)

That only applies to the Returning Attacks ability. It does not apply to Thunderous Throw and does not apply to Lightning Ricochet (which essentially replaces Returning Attacks ability). So once you hit Bloodstorm Blade 4, it's a non-issue.

minchazo
2009-10-24, 06:34 AM
Warblade 5/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4


I've finally borrowed the ToB to look at this build. How does the Bloodstorm Blade work with Weak Spot? The Master Thrower can't add his Str to damage with a thrown weapon if he uses this ability. Is there any specific stances/maneuvers I should be looking at?

And what about Palm throw? A TWF/Palm Throwing Master Thrower would need 4 weapons, even with Bloodstorm Blade, wouldn't he?

Melamoto
2009-10-24, 06:35 AM
Bard optimized for Dragonfire Inspiration works well. Combine with Palm Throw for fun times.

Devilboy
2009-10-24, 07:10 AM
By treating the attacks as melee, though, you can use effects such as knockback, and dungeoncrasher, and the trip combos that your standard shocktrooper could use. Power attack itself becomes usable, and everything just gets a little bit more awesome.

tonberrian
2009-10-24, 04:28 PM
I've finally borrowed the ToB to look at this build. How does the Bloodstorm Blade work with Weak Spot? The Master Thrower can't add his Str to damage with a thrown weapon if he uses this ability. Is there any specific stances/maneuvers I should be looking at?

And what about Palm throw? A TWF/Palm Throwing Master Thrower would need 4 weapons, even with Bloodstorm Blade, wouldn't he?

The build isn't really ideal. If you're going Bloodstorm Blade, you're going to miss out on a lot of Warblade goodies, and Bloodstorm Blade only allows you to use Iron Heart strikes on thrown attacks. (Alternatively, you could use your swift action on Thuderous Throw, but that keeps you from using it on other things, like a Belt of Battle or a boost like Raging Mongoose.) Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Master Thrower 5 limits your initiator level down to 15 even if the rest is an adept, so you're not going to reach the highest levels of maneuvers whatever you do, and the number of maneuvers you have available will be similarly stunted. Just take as many (or as few) martial adept levels necessary to get the handful of low- to mid-level maneuvers that seem really useful (the Diamond Mind save-to-Concentration-check maneuvers are good, as is anything that grants you extra attacks), dip Fighter for a couple of bonus feats for pre-reqs, and find a way to add an extra stat or two to damage - ties up 20 levels quite nicely.

Really, there are only 3 good reasons to take Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (a nice, solid ability to use melee stuff at range), Lightning Ricochet (negates possibly the greatest weakness of a thrower (other than that they're not a caster) - getting your weapon back to you in a reasonable amount of time; good only because of how unique it is), and Blade Storm (pure cheese if you do it right, but just a slightly better Whirlwind Attack otherwise). A Str-based build loves the first two, but Dex-based only likes the second, but it's still useful enough to drop 4 levels on.

As for Palm Throw, yes it doubles the number of weapons you need. It's still worth it, though.

Keld Denar
2009-10-24, 05:27 PM
Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11), my take on combining Bard and Master Thrower

minchazo
2009-10-24, 09:57 PM
Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11), my take on combining Bard and Master Thrower

:smallsmile:I saw that build, Keld. I wanted to comment on it, but didn't know if you were still interest in it, since it's a year old now.

What's the range increment on the weapon you're using? You're missing Weapon Focus(something) to qualify for Master Thrower, but that's not an issue since you've got an extra feat available. Also, someone on the board mentioned that Rapid Shot gives you one extra attack per hand, so with TWF you'd get 12 attacks doubled by palm throw.

I'm truly considering going Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5/Fighter 9/Nightsong Enforcer 1. He would throw shuriken or skiprocks to take advantage of their cost as ammunition. I'll post a build tomorrow or the day after, if I can.

ericgrau
2009-10-24, 10:18 PM
Flame arrow spell, +1d6 damage, 3rd level. Bug the wizard or get a wand for 4500 gp.

Keld Denar
2009-10-25, 02:43 AM
Please don't comment in that thread, lest you earn a rather stern talking to by RSJ. It is old. Proper form would be to either ask me here, since I brought it up, or start a new threat, link the old thread, and ask there. Otherwise, you can always PM the author if you have questions.

Thanks for pointing that out about Weapon Focus. I think I might have brainfarted there. There really isn't a good spot at the beginning of the build to put it, as at level 1, you don't have the BAB, and the level 3 and 6 feats are so critical. Probably about the only thing you could do and get away with would be to bump Song of the White Raven back...