PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Need a guided missile



jiriku
2009-10-21, 01:04 PM
Warning: Many catgirls died to bring us this information.

In my quest to create the perfect sub-orbital kinetic energy weapon (a la Project Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment)), I have run into a complication.

My plan is to use major creation and fabricate to construct a very heavy (>=8 tons), extremely aerodynamic missile made of solid lead, summon a large, powerful creature to lift it, teleport myself and the creature into low earth orbit, and then drop the projectile on stationary targets like castles or encampments of enemy armies.

My challenge is that to get the desired force upon impact of 3-6 TJ (comparable to the Hiroshima detonation), I need to drop the missile from a height of 20-30 km, where it's not possible to see or aim accurately at a target that may only be a few hundred yards across. There's also the risk of suffocation and decompression at that altitude, but one problem at a time.

So, my thought is that I will build a guided missile, using a permanent animate object , and if I could give this missile the ability to locate its target by casting find the path on it. Since the animated object has no intelligence, will this work, or would I also need to cast awaken construct on it? Is there another way to enable to missile to find the path that doesn't require me to have access to 9th level spells?

I am currently a 12th level red wizard/necromancer (barred schools enchantment, evocation, illusion) and can increase my caster level up to 25 through circle magic if need be. I have a cleric on hand to cast find the path.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 01:08 PM
In D&D, the maximum amount of falling damage you can do is 20d6. The rest is based on weight, so you only need to aim from 200 feet up.

Also, it's only a DC 5 (or was it 15?) attack roll to hit a single square with a dropped object, so no aiming needed.

jiriku
2009-10-21, 01:18 PM
Assume the premise.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 01:40 PM
You mean "Assuming I'm not playing with D&D falling rules, how do I use D&D falling rules to create a giant impact?"

I can't work with a premise that is parodoxical.

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-21, 01:46 PM
I think he means "Assume that falling damage is infinite but all other rules of DnD apply".

Which isn't that hard.

That said, I know nothing, and so cannot help.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 01:49 PM
I think he means "Assume that falling damage is infinite but all other rules of DnD apply".

Which isn't that hard.

That said, I know nothing, and so cannot help.

Assuming falling damage is infinite... it's a DC 5 attack roll, with a DC 15 reflex save for half, only in the area the object covers.

Assuming catgirl killing and that D&D is only being used as a source of magic with all the rules thrown out so you can do things that make sense by physics... just cast a divination, ask "at what time and exactly where in the atmosphere should I drop this giant weight in order to hit the enemy dead center."

You don't need to aim when divinations can do it for you.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 01:50 PM
He's using the Falling Object Damage, not Falling Damage. Different rule set. FOD doesn't cap at 20d6.

Milskidasith
2009-10-21, 01:52 PM
Ah. Still, just cast a divination to know where to drop it, rather than complicating things with aiming mechanisms. It still won't (by RAW, which is generally stupid) do a giant AoE blast, but you can still aim it that way if you don't want to just make an attack roll (which I'm pretty sure you can do.)

Random832
2009-10-21, 01:54 PM
He's using the Falling Object Damage, not Falling Damage. Different rule set. FOD doesn't cap at 20d6.

It does cap at 200 feet (or equivalent for objects weighing less than 200 pounds), though. Any damage over 20d6 comes from the object's weight, rather than the height dropped from.

Another_Poet
2009-10-21, 02:01 PM
Observations:

-If the object is a thrown weapon, its default range increment is 10 feet, default max range is 50 feet. You cannot hit a square from higher than that with a thrown weapon. It is reasonable to think that range increment does not apply when firing straight down (since gravity does the work) but that is a house rule.

-Assuming you are ignoring range increment and max falling damage, you need not resort to magic to manage your targeting. You could rely on good ol' fashioned math. To wit: knowing the height at which you will drop the object, the coordinates which you desire the object to hit, the falling speed of the object, and the overall speed and direction of wind at the time and place of the drop (estimate as closely as possible) you could use physics to work out the exact positioning of the initial drop point in order to hit your target with a margin of error of several feet (let's say 1 square).

I would consider this a very high Knowledge (Nature) check - DC in the high 30's or even 40+. And it can't be done without proper tools (a sliderule at the very least; depending on the setting, you may have to invent this first). But it's easier to achieve that spending money on magical homing systems.

Then all you have to do is teleport the object to the specified drop point with a high degree of accuracy.

lsfreak
2009-10-21, 02:11 PM
To wit: knowing the height at which your will drop the object, the coordinates which you desire the object to hit, the falling speed of the object, and the overall speed and direction of wind at the time and place of the drop (estimate as closely as possible) you could use physics to work out the exact positioning of the initial drop point in order to hit your target with a margin of error of several feet (let's say 1 square).

At the height we're talking, you also need to take into account the movement of the target due to the planet spinning. You'd also need to know the wind speed at different places, but the slug will be heavy enough that I wouldn't *think* wind would have much of an impact on targeting. The biggest thing is going to be the Coriolis effect.

Another_Poet
2009-10-21, 02:15 PM
From 30 kms up? Yeah I suppose planetary rotation would factor in.

root9125
2009-10-21, 02:18 PM
It does cap at 200 feet (or equivalent for objects weighing less than 200 pounds), though. Any damage over 20d6 comes from the object's weight, rather than the height dropped from.

Which is reasonable, as far as D&D physics can be called reasonable, because of issues like terminal velocity. Of course, all this stops making sense when we believe in the existence of vacuum above the Material Plane. So, I imagine that the damage should scale based on velocity, and the terminal velocity of an 8-ton, 20-foot-diameter cylinder is easy to figure out with physics, then we multiply its reciprocal by 20 for the dice / velocity ratio at the upper end...

Let's see... a long cylinder's drag coefficient is .82... Terminal velocity in atmosphere is the square root of 2mg / pACd... For an 8-ton object, 20-foot-diameter... It's (~50 * sqr(2.2)) = 74.1 m/s. So, 1d6 / 3.7 m/s.

So if you can accelerate this thing outside of atmosphere to the point that terminal velocity doesn't really apply, you can have ~ 1d6 per 3.7 m/s that you've been able to accelerate the object. Not sure what you'd use for that. If just gravity, you will, indeed, only deal 20d6 damage plus damage from the weight of the object... (5 + (16,000 - 400) / 200) d6 = 83d6. So, there's the answer.

1d6 / 3.7 m/s + 83d6 to all in a 20-foot-diameter cylinder. The others around would take damage from a shockwave and have to make some absurd fortitude save or go prone... Hang on for the calculations there.

EDIT: Did the math, never mind on the save. No creature in existence would remain standing. Fort save DC in the upper 70s, extrapolating from the canonical saves.

MORE EDITS: "The idea is that the weapon would inflict damage because it moves at orbital velocities, at least 9 kilometers per second." From Project Thor. So then. We're talking 2515d6 damage in total, at least to the closest few creatures (inside the 4 squares affected). Give me another minute to figure out the damage to adjacent...

MORE MORE EDITS: The force on impact is .29 *terajoules*. That's... That's like a fifth of the force of the average nuclear bomb. More accurately, it's ~20 kilotons of TNT. We can just quit D&D at this point. You've blown up whatever you were aiming at, and everything in a 1-mile radius, and knocked over everything for 5 miles, no save, and shattered glass for 15 miles. Game over.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-21, 02:23 PM
There's also the risk of suffocation and decompression at that altitude, but one problem at a time.

Amulet of adaptation solves this.

Fluffles
2009-10-21, 02:23 PM
Nat 20 is always a save.

jiriku
2009-10-21, 02:25 PM
Mils: You're coming across as rather shrill, which you may not be intending. Regarding your discussion of realism vs. game rules: I'm not overly worried about it. We play the way we play, and it suits us to do so. Your suggestion of divination magic sounds good, but divination only provides yes-or-no answers. Lower-level effects simply comment on whether a course of action would be auspicious or not. I'd prefer to avoid contact other plane until I can use moment of prescience to avoid going insane. Which divination spell could I use?

Poet: Yeah, this is more of a dropped weapon than a thrown weapon. I wonder if it would be sufficient to teleport via line of sight to a location directly above the target, then teleport via positionomancy to a location "x kilometers straight up". If the missile is dense and aerodynamic enough, drift due to wind should be minimal barring stormy weather, and the blast radius is large enough to compensate for inaccuracy of up to a couple hundred yards at least. That extra teleport raises the risk of being seen, however, which raises the risk of encountering some kind of response from the enemy while I'm alone, airborne, and far from any cover.

Freak: Wouldn't the missile and I also be spinning at the same speed, much like when you throw a rock from a moving car? The rock inherits the velocity of the moving car, and only slows down through air resistance or impact with a hard surface.

Talya
2009-10-21, 02:30 PM
I think he means "Assume that falling damage is infinite but all other rules of DnD apply".

Which isn't that hard.

That said, I know nothing, and so cannot help.


Or even...assume falling damage is capped at 20d6, but the radius of the shockwave (also doing 20d6) continues to climb...

(let's face it, 20d6 is going to wipe out most structures and people completely.)

Fizban
2009-10-21, 02:31 PM
Observations:

-If the object is a thrown weapon, its default range increment is 10 feet, default max range is 50 feet. You cannot hit a square from higher than that with a thrown weapon. It is reasonable to think that range increment does not apply when firing straight down (since gravity does the work) but that is a house rule.

Heroes of Battle has range increments and deviation for dropping rocks on people, I think it was 50-100' or so per increment. Far to small for heights measured in kilometers but better than 10' at least. I don't think there's a spell that says "you automatically hit", but there's an epic weapon enhancement that lets you shoot anything in line of sight, and I think the rules for long range spot checks in Stormwrack are more forgiving than the basic -/10'.

This is a case where I'd say, especially since the OP already did, screw the falling object rules. If it's being allowed as a tactic at all, you might as well allow it as intended.

root9125
2009-10-21, 02:42 PM
Poet: Yeah, this is more of a dropped weapon than a thrown weapon. I wonder if it would be sufficient to teleport via line of sight to a location directly above the target, then teleport via positionomancy to a location "x kilometers straight up". If the missile is dense and aerodynamic enough, drift due to wind should be minimal barring stormy weather, and the blast radius is large enough to compensate for inaccuracy of up to a couple hundred yards at least. That extra teleport raises the risk of being seen, however, which raises the risk of encountering some kind of response from the enemy while I'm alone, airborne, and far from any cover.

Yes, mostly. The blast radius is about a mile big. Everything there is affected almost as though by a nuclear blast. ~.29 Terajoules of force to the point of impact, which dissipates normally. At the end of that mile radius, an epic-fighter might survive. At the end of the five-mile-radius, a commoner would almost certainly survive, albeit automatically knocked prone. See my post above for damage.


Freak: Wouldn't the missile and I also be spinning at the same speed, much like when you throw a rock from a moving car? The rock inherits the velocity of the moving car, and only slows down through air resistance or impact with a hard surface.
You've teleported, see, and that means that you *aren't* necessarily moving at that speed. I assume, since you never fall over due to the spinning of the earth when you teleport normally, that you assume the rotational momentum of wherever you are teleporting to. That means that the bomb *will* have to compensate for the spinning of the earth, unless you define teleport differently.

Telonius
2009-10-21, 02:51 PM
Which is reasonable, as far as D&D physics can be called reasonable, because of issues like terminal velocity. Of course, all this stops making sense when we believe in the existence of vacuum above the Material Plane. So, I imagine that the damage should scale based on velocity, and the terminal velocity of an 8-ton, 20-foot-diameter cylinder is easy to figure out with physics, then we multiply its reciprocal by 20 for the dice / velocity ratio at the upper end...

Let's see... a long cylinder's drag coefficient is .82... Terminal velocity in atmosphere is the square root of 2mg / pACd... For an 8-ton object, 20-foot-diameter... It's (~50 * sqr(2.2)) = 74.1 m/s. So, 1d6 / 3.7 m/s.

So if you can accelerate this thing outside of atmosphere to the point that terminal velocity doesn't really apply, you can have ~ 1d6 per 3.7 m/s that you've been able to accelerate the object. Not sure what you'd use for that. If just gravity, you will, indeed, only deal 20d6 damage plus damage from the weight of the object... (5 + (16,000 - 400) / 200) d6 = 83d6. So, there's the answer.

1d6 / 3.7 m/s + 83d6 to all in a 20-foot-diameter cylinder. The others around would take damage from a shockwave and have to make some absurd fortitude save or go prone... Hang on for the calculations there.

EDIT: Did the math, never mind on the save. No creature in existence would remain standing. Fort save DC in the upper 70s, extrapolating from the canonical saves.

MORE EDITS: "The idea is that the weapon would inflict damage because it moves at orbital velocities, at least 9 kilometers per second." From Project Thor. So then. We're talking 2515d6 damage in total, at least to the closest few creatures (inside the 4 squares affected). Give me another minute to figure out the damage to adjacent...

MORE MORE EDITS: The force on impact is .29 *terajoules*. That's... That's like a fifth of the force of the average nuclear bomb. More accurately, it's ~20 kilotons of TNT. We can just quit D&D at this point. You've blown up whatever you were aiming at, and everything in a 1-mile radius, and knocked over everything for 5 miles, no save, and shattered glass for 15 miles. Game over.

Exceptional Deflection could defeat it, but that's Epic.


Exceptional Deflection [Epic]
Prerequisites

Dex 21, Wis 19, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit

You can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.


Deflect Arrows [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit

You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.
Special

A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Emphasis added. So, any level-21 character with a free hand can survive a nuclear attack.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-21, 02:51 PM
Assuming falling damage is infinite... it's a DC 5 attack roll
To be more precise, attacking squares means attacking AC 5, range increment for dropped objects is 50 feet. Dive bombing lets you use the full height for damage, but only counts range increments from the point of release.

with a DC 15 reflex save for half, only in the area the object covers.
I know you know this, but for reference for others ... this is from HoB page 68.

PS. the reflex is save for none.

lsfreak
2009-10-21, 02:52 PM
Freak: Wouldn't the missile and I also be spinning at the same speed, much like when you throw a rock from a moving car? The rock inherits the velocity of the moving car, and only slows down through air resistance or impact with a hard surface.

I know that long-range sniping requires the Coriolis effect in order to land a round on the target. I assume it's the same with long-range artillery. I would definitely assume the same with this exercise.

EDIT: And while the energy released might be equivalent to a ~20kt nuclear explosion, keep in mind the lead rod will still act differently just by nature of not being a nuclear reaction. Burst height, full-spectrum radiation, etc. I don't know enough about ballistics to know how much different wind speeds and pressures and the like will be, but I'd wager that will be noticeably different as well.

jiriku
2009-10-21, 02:53 PM
MORE MORE EDITS: The force on impact is .29 *terajoules*. That's... That's like a fifth of the force of the average nuclear bomb. More accurately, it's ~20 kilotons of TNT. We can just quit D&D at this point. You've blown up whatever you were aiming at, and everything in a 1-mile radius, and knocked over everything for 5 miles, no save, and shattered glass for 15 miles. Game over.

Root, that's roughly what I was calculating as well. And exactly the goal. If this effect functions as intended, there is no point in rolling dice. Everything in the target area is dead with no save.

To provide you with a context, our last two encounters were a CR 20 pack of vampires and golems and a CR 21 army of elite commandos, respectively. Our party is ECL 11. The DM is actively trying to kill us, and we the players are collectively revolting by refusing to die and defeating every impossible challenge he sends our way. No holds are barred. It might sound as though it would be frustrating or upsetting, but it's actually rather a lot of fun.



Amulet of adaptation solves this.

Excellent solution! Now, the question is, do I get two, one for myself and one for my summoned creature, or do I polymorph myself into something strong enough to lift the projectile? OTOH, I can't think of anything strong enough to lift 8 tons that can also cast spells. GHI, I'd only need to cast teleport and perhaps true strike, and those are verbal-only.



Stuff about the coriolis effect.

Ok, so the accuracy problem is more about compensating for planetary rotation than locating the target. What skill do you think would be appropriate for this? Perhaps Knowledge (nature) or Profession (siege engineer)?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 02:55 PM
Excellent solution! Now, the question is, do I get two, one for myself and one for my summoned creature, or do I polymorph myself into something strong enough to lift the projectile? OTOH, I can't think of anything strong enough to lift 8 tons that can also cast spells. GHI, I'd only need to cast teleport and perhaps true strike, and those are verbal-only.

Size categories could pull it off, due to the way carrying capacity works. I think you would need to be Gargantuan at the very least to pull it off.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-21, 02:59 PM
Root, that's roughly what I was calculating as well. And exactly the goal. If this effect functions as intended, there is no point in rolling dice. Everything in the target area is dead with no save.
Well, that requires yet more houseruling to remove the reflex save.

jiriku
2009-10-21, 03:10 PM
Well, that requires yet more houseruling to remove the reflex save.

Our group does not have Heroes of Battle, so I'm not sure about the rules you're referencing. I suppose what I'm hoping for is that the DM will be completely flabbergasted at the scope of what we're attempting, realize that the rules don't adequately describe such a thing, and admit that nothing could reasonably survive such an impact. At a bare minimum, even a VERY conservative reading of the RAW decrees that anything that sustains a direct hit is taking 105d6 impact damage, which is generally pretty hard to walk away from.

Cieyrin
2009-10-21, 03:18 PM
Why not use Profession(Siege Engineer) to determine whether you hit or not? It works with catapults and other indirect fire, so why not this?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-21, 03:22 PM
Aiming is overrated.

The key is to get an airship, al a Eberron style, and mount on it as many Fabricate traps as you see fit. Create 10 cubic feet blocks of lead every six seconds = number of traps on board, which are immediately dropped. Bonus points if these blocks are anvil shaped.

Being that a single cubic foot of lead weighs 708 lbs, a 10 cubic foot chunk should make a rather good crater, and deal excellent damage, even if only 200 feet of falling damage is added on, due to the extra damage from weight. I believe it's an additional 34d6 damage, for a grand total of 54d6 damage per projectile.

Sheer volume should assure you of hits.

Another_Poet
2009-10-21, 10:20 PM
Aiming is overrated.

The key is to get an airship, al a Eberron style, and mount on it as many Fabricate traps as you see fit. Create 10 cubic feet blocks of lead every six seconds = number of traps on board, which are immediately dropped. Bonus points if these blocks are anvil shaped.

No, 10 cubic foot globs of molten lead lava.

Fly in so low your belly almost scrapes the rooftops and unload in force. Between the fire damage itself and the poisonous fumes, destruction shall be your legacy. Bring some abjurations!

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 08:31 AM
I like the way you think! Crush it, then set it on fire. Then, set the fire on fire.

Grommen
2009-10-22, 10:44 AM
The question is not how, but why? Why would we want to do something like this?

*shrug* O well.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 10:49 AM
You ask *why* we would want to smash and burn things?

Are you playing the same game we are?

lsfreak
2009-10-22, 10:59 AM
The question is not how, but why? Why would we want to do something like this?

*shrug* O well.

He already provided that reason. He's been up against epic-level-challenge-rating encounters at level 11.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 11:40 AM
Actally, I can sympathize with that. Some DMs equate challenge with "lets find mobs ridiculously above their CR".

It generally leads to an arms race, and using something blatantly ridiculous helps illustrate it well.

Moriato
2009-10-22, 04:42 PM
Wouldn't a lead projectile dropped from space simply melt during atmospheric reentry before it ever got to the ground?

I mean if we're trying to be realistic here, can't just embrace some real-world physics and ignore others

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 04:45 PM
Realistic? I relied entirely on RAW for my damage. =)

Dropping from space is unnecessary, though. Once you hit the point of "utterly ridiculous damage that one shots them even when they save for half", you don't really need to go higher.

By raw, damage caps out at 200ft, so if you chill about there, it saves you all the worry about accuracy.

Marillion
2009-10-22, 04:58 PM
Wouldn't a lead projectile dropped from space simply melt during atmospheric reentry before it ever got to the ground?

Not necessarily. Depending on the size of the lead object, which I have been led to believe is ridiculously large, and not knowing the melting point of lead off the top of my head, I would guess that some of the outer layers would be stripped away, but the bulk of it would remain intact.

And even if it did melt, in that case, you'd have a glob of molten lead falling from the atmosphere, leading us to Another Poet's scenario on steroids.

Moriato
2009-10-22, 05:12 PM
Not necessarily. Depending on the size of the lead object, which I have been led to believe is ridiculously large, and not knowing the melting point of lead off the top of my head, I would guess that some of the outer layers would be stripped away, but the bulk of it would remain intact.

And even if it did melt, in that case, you'd have a glob of molten lead falling from the atmosphere, leading us to Another Poet's scenario on steroids.

It's 600 something degrees F. Not very hot, your oven could probably almost melt lead. And a glob of falling molten lead wouldn't stay a glob, it would break up into droplets, or probably just vaporise. I would be... rather unhealthy for the environment, but not that deadly, I don't think.

Druids would be upset.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 05:20 PM
Dropped from orbit? Hmm...assuming one fabricate load, aka 10 cubic feet, shaped however you will...

You'd want a rod with a slight bit of drag on the end. Fins, most likely.

Now, fabricate doesn't need to be entirely one type of metal, so you could have a bit of a blast shield on the nose, and make the fins of steel. Steel definitely still falls under acceptable materials, and while it can still melt, it's gonna last a lot longer.

That should get it to the ground, mostly in one piece, though yeah, it'll be a bit of a mess, and you'll have lead vapors boiling off on the way down, and droplets splattering everywhere.

Accuracy would go to hell due to the melting, mind you, but whatever it did hit would be sorry.

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-22, 07:08 PM
Why go for orbital placement?

Just get a 1 pound adamantine ball and accelerate it in a vacuum until you reach c fractional speeds and then make use of ring gates for delivery.

Oh, but be sure to cast a Wall of Force through the ring gate before letting the ball through, you don't want a hole in the ground.

If you want real fun, cast Resilient Sphere around the ring gate and then send through the ball (and make sure that the ball is the 100th pound of matter to go through for the day, you don't want backlash). You now have fully contained something like 20 megatons of energy with no where to go. Once the resilient sphere goes away you will get a very big boom.

Fizban
2009-10-22, 07:11 PM
Just jumping in on damage: if you DM does limit it to 20d6, you're pretty much screwed. Sure it'll nuke a wooden building, but stone walls have hundreds of hp and half damage before applying hardness as well. A couple hundred d6's on the other hand...

Another_Poet
2009-10-22, 07:13 PM
Why go for orbital placement?

Just get a 1 pound adamantine ball and accelerate it in a vacuum until you reach c fractional speeds and then make use of ring gates for delivery.

Oh, but be sure to cast a Wall of Force through the ring gate before letting the ball through, you don't want a hole in the ground.

If you want real fun, cast Resilient Sphere around the ring gate and then send through the ball (and make sure that the ball is the 100th pound of matter to go through for the day, you don't want backlash). You now have fully contained something like 20 megatons of energy with no where to go. Once the resilient sphere goes away you will get a very big boom.

Yeah, I am surprised this didn't come up earlier. The ol' vaccuum ring gate ICBM. Does what the OP wants done, better than what the OP wants to do. Threadwin.

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-22, 07:21 PM
Hmm, oh. This should work for what you want as well.

My Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97476).

lyko555
2009-10-22, 07:31 PM
Hmm, oh. This should work for what you want as well.

My Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97476).

All bow before the emperor may he live to slaughter many more cat girls

jiriku
2009-10-23, 12:49 AM
Why go for orbital placement?

Just get a 1 pound adamantine ball and accelerate it in a vacuum until you reach c fractional speeds and then make use of ring gates for delivery.

Oh, but be sure to cast a Wall of Force through the ring gate before letting the ball through, you don't want a hole in the ground.

If you want real fun, cast Resilient Sphere around the ring gate and then send through the ball (and make sure that the ball is the 100th pound of matter to go through for the day, you don't want backlash). You now have fully contained something like 20 megatons of energy with no where to go. Once the resilient sphere goes away you will get a very big boom.

Oh Tippy, this is marvelous.

What method do you use to travel and avoid death in a vacuum?
How do you place a ring gate in space and keep it stable?
How do you accelerate the ball?
How do you aim it precisely enough to dunk through the ring gate at that speed?

Edit: I like the magic missile as a delivery system, but the explosive runes warhead is much too small a payload. I'm looking for weapons that will disable an installation or decimate an army. And, umm, I'm only 12th level so I have to do it on the cheap.

Set
2009-10-23, 01:20 AM
Is there any material available in the game that is inherently explosive? Dropping something like reactive armor that explodes on impact would be spectacular.

Dropping a massive block of Thinaun would ensure that anyone killed by the blast would probably have their soul trapped in the shrapnel that killed them... Totally unnecesary, but funny.

A couple thousand pounds of frozen acid (or alchemist's fire, or contact poison) could be neat, if contained within a thin metal shell, so that it flew all over the place and then did tons more damage as it melted / hit people.

Air dropping green slime, russet mold, yellow mold, brown mold, etc. can also be fun. I vaguely remember that being a tactic (green slime, anyway) dealing with an army of frost giants in the Bloodstone H-series modules.

If the missile doesn't need to exist for more than a couple of rounds of falling, it could be made of adamantine and ignore the castles hardness. :)

1 cubic foot of steel is ~500 lbs. (Thanks Dragon Annual #1!) Adamantine armor and weapons are not stated as being any heavier than steel armor or weapons, so we'll go with the steel weights.

At minimum CL 9, you'll be creating 9 cubic feet of adamantine, weighing 4500 lbs (add 500 lbs / CL over 9). By 11th level, with an Int of 20 or more, you'll be able to drop three of these puppies a day, one right after another, over the course of three rounds, if you want.

No need for a vehicle, just Greater Invisibility, Overland Flight and head to the castle you want to bombard. Once you're over the target spot, drop a flask of alchemist's fire to make sure that you are on target, and then start casting Major Creation.

"Boss, there is a fire on top of the keep tower." "Never mind, it's out." "Holy crap!!"

Frozen acid, alchemist's fire or black lotus extract probably weighs more or less the same as frozen water ice, so go with 60 lbs / cubic ft, or a measly 540 lbs at CL 9. The secondary damage is the exciting part here.

I wonder what sort of Craft check you'd need to make a shrapnel bomb, a block of adamantine that is composed of about 4500 dagger blades connected by frangible wires, all pointing outwards and ready to fly apart in all directions upon impact? I'd give it a try. Even if you fail, it's still a 4500 lb ball of adamantine...

Too bad the Black Cloud toxin generated by Achaierai isn't an option. "A big chunk of black ice fell and lots of people died. Then the survivors went insane for three hours."

DwaggieBard
2009-10-23, 01:47 AM
If damage cap is an issue, just create multiple smaller missles. If necessary for the purpose of the spell, you can join them together with tiny treads of string, which would burn up during reentry and seperate all of your missles. Then, you can roll for damage for each chunk of lead.

Even if max falling object damage were 20d6, you can make a heck of a lot of them all fall onto the same area, and multiply an average of 70 damage times the number of missles. For example, you could create at least 16 half-ton lead weights, doing a total of at least 1120 damage, and that's not counting secondary shockwaves & area effect.

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 07:45 AM
I know that long-range sniping requires the Coriolis effect in order to land a round on the target. I assume it's the same with long-range artillery. I would definitely assume the same with this exercise.

EDIT: And while the energy released might be equivalent to a ~20kt nuclear explosion, keep in mind the lead rod will still act differently just by nature of not being a nuclear reaction. Burst height, full-spectrum radiation, etc. I don't know enough about ballistics to know how much different wind speeds and pressures and the like will be, but I'd wager that will be noticeably different as well.

Artillery definitely requires consideration of the Coriolis effect in order to achieve accuracy. Corrections for it are part of any Tabular Firing Table, or the programming of an artillery computer. It actually also requires correction for the spin of the projectile based on the rifling of the barrel, but that's not an issue here.

What is an issue here is the relative motion of the planet beneath you as you drop the object. Assuming you inherit the angular velocity of the planet as you teleport up, you're still only moving the speed the planet is at the surface. Since you're now higher, you're moving around a larger circle (ignoring the complexities of actual orbits and the fact that they aren't exactly circular for simplicity) so you'd need to accelerate in order to remain over the same point, and more importantly, make sure your lead bomb was moving laterally fast enough to stay over the target.

You could also compute lead and teleport far enough ahead to achieve a hit. You'll also need to account for air resistance slowing down your lateral movement.

Some people have already gone into how many dice of damage you'll get, but while you'll get a very large blast, rpobably, like someone said, around 20 KT, but it won't behave exactly like a nuclear blast. in particular, there won't be a nuclear fireball, but here will be plenty of blast and shockwave. To keep things simple, its probably easist to calculate effects based on a groundburst explosion of the yield its ultimately determined you get. Here is a nuclear weapon effects calculator:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html

Here is a reltivity effects calculator; relativistic effects won't happen in this scenario, but it will still give you energy yield based on velocity and mass

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Relativity.html

In fact, to knock out a castle, you probably could save a lot of weight and use a smaller projectile, assuming you can figure out a way to get a direct or near-direct hit. If you can't, you may want to stick with the 8-ton projectile in case you miss. This is why real nuclear warheads have shrunk so much since the early days of ICBMs; greater accuracy means they don't need such a massive warhead to knock out enemy ICBM silos. It's also why Russian weapons usually have somewhat larger warheads; to compensate for somewhat reduced accuracy.

As for the lead melting, no, a solid hunk of 8-tons of lead is not going to melt at the velocities it will achieve from 20-30 km up, although some of the outside might melt. It's also not going to separate into droplets; there might be some but they will remain relatively close to the mass of the projectile. All the velocity is down and in the direction of orbit; there's no force pushing the droplets apart or dispersing them. They certainly won't vaporize.

Radar
2009-10-23, 09:05 AM
One more thing to consider: if the missile is an aerodynamic rod, then the explosion will be definately underground. I can't estimate, how deep it will go, but it is an issue. Or maybe not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_quake_bomb), since it should shake the ground sufficiently to at least replicate Earthquake spell. Which is not quite, what was sought for, yet a nice trick to have up one's sleeve.

jiriku
2009-10-23, 12:46 PM
This. Is. Awesome.

Set: I'm a necromancer, so actually I can think of a couple of uses offhand for a weapon that kills a bunch of people and traps their souls. Good idea!

I also LOVE your idea for low-altitude payloads involving unusual munitions. I don't know if there's an easy way for me to freeze this much stuff without establishing a secret antarctic base, though...although, as a rule I don't really object to establishing secret antarctic bases. Hmmm...perhaps I could just take craft wondrous item for my level 12 feat and build some kind of instant-cooling ceramic freezer.

I had toyed with the idea of an adamantine-jacketed missile, but I think the drop time on the missile will be long enough that it's dicey whether the duration would be sufficient. Maybe I should take extend spell instead....

I do need a delivery vehicle, because conjuration spells must create their objects "fully supported". Right now my current vehicle of choice is a summoned fiendish gargantuan monstrous centipide with bull's strength cast on it. It can lift nearly 8 tons under a heavy load IIRC, and with CL 18 I can teleport it and myself as needed. CL 18 is easily achievable through red wizard circle magic. Odd how I cannot teleport an 8-ton lead telephone pole, but I can teleport a 30-foot centipede carrying said telephone pole. That's magic for you.

Dwaggie: Submunitions! That's a great idea. I will definitely add that plan to our arsenal.

Diamondeye: I was actually considering applying some threading and tailing to the missile to make it tumble in flight, like a bullet. This is good info from you: clearly I need to take some ranks in Profession (siege engineer) to make this work. I already have ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) and several relevant craft skills to help me in the design and construction phases of the project. It looks like there's enough to consider that I ought to find an isolated test range and perform some test drops from various altitudes, maybe using barrels of paint to easily determine where my item lands.


It occurs to me there's also a political element to this. I'm a foreigner in the country we're traveling in, and destruction on this scale could make a lot of very powerful people very frightened. That could have negative impacts on my longevity.

Brendan
2009-10-26, 04:14 PM
Create some sort of all-seeing eye construct, animate it and make it fly. Before that, surround it with thousands of explosive runes. Have it have it's eye closed. It lands somewhere and opens it's eye. After that, every rune goes boom. Maybe hold a few wail of the banshee scrolls there too, but otherwise, it is attainable at lowish level. Pricy, though.

imp_fireball
2009-10-31, 05:01 AM
I think he means "Assume that falling damage is infinite but all other rules of DnD apply".


Wait doesn't that contradict the rules of real life? The 200ft. falling limit is likely a simplification of terminal velocity, and in real life, terminal velocity is the maximum rate that you can fall at in terms of speed. Either that, or its the maximum rate you can accelerate at.

Could someone clarify this? Is falling damage based entirely on misunderstood physics?

Asteroids create huge craters, but that's because they fall faster than gravity drives them, right?

According to current falling damage rules, you'd have to drop a castle on a castle to destroy a castle.


I wonder what sort of Craft check you'd need to make a shrapnel bomb, a block of adamantine that is composed of about 4500 dagger blades connected by frangible wires, all pointing outwards and ready to fly apart in all directions upon impact?

Realistically, that'd take a long time to craft in a mundane manner. Also it sounds more complicated than inventing gun powder and building a big dumb grenade. :P

If I were GM, I'd claim the character would have to spend hours upon hours mulling over the physics with middle age math (the fact that they haven't invented calculus then is probably brutal).

Dimers
2009-10-31, 10:25 PM
Three problems with the ring-gate ICBM have to do with the receiving gate. First, if the bomb works, the gate is hella destroyed -- expensive. Second, how do you get it to the proper place? Third, once you get it there, unless it's done right before use (which complicates HOW to get it there), the enemy could conceivably find it and use it against you somehow. I think aiming a non-smart bomb would be the simpler (if not easier) task ... though that depends somewhat on how much the DM distrusts you and wants you dead.

Incidentally, is alignment an issue? You'd almost inevitably be killing lots of innocents.

What would happen in the Ethereal when a KE weapon hits? Do other overlapping planes exist in the gameworld?

A Gargantuan bipedal creature with Str 32 could lift eight tons as a heavy load, but it'd take CL 24 to teleport one Gargantuan creature along with you.

Diamondeye
2009-10-31, 11:58 PM
Wait doesn't that contradict the rules of real life? The 200ft. falling limit is likely a simplification of terminal velocity, and in real life, terminal velocity is the maximum rate that you can fall at in terms of speed. Either that, or its the maximum rate you can accelerate at.

Could someone clarify this? Is falling damage based entirely on misunderstood physics?

Asteroids create huge craters, but that's because they fall faster than gravity drives them, right?

According to current falling damage rules, you'd have to drop a castle on a castle to destroy a castle.

Well, for one thing the amount of damage a falling object causes is based on a different formula than the one for how much damage a character takes from falling.

For another, terminal velocity is kind of a tricky thing. It applies to objects dropped from within the atmosphere, not to objects entering the atmosphere with some massive velocity already.

Grushvak
2009-11-06, 03:02 PM
Exceptional Deflection could defeat it, but that's Epic.

Emphasis added. So, any level-21 character with a free hand can survive a nuclear attack.

You know what? If a player actually took 21 levels of monk, I'd be more than happy to let him survive a nuclear attack.

Also, rule of cool. I see this extremely cinematic scene in my head of a 8-ton lead spear falling from the sky at terminal velocity, with a lone monk standing below on a castle roof, bracing for impact. Just as the projectile is about to land, the monk, with a powerful shout, hits it with the palm of his hand, sending it flying a few hundred feet away from the castle.

The country side is ravaged due to the gargantuan lead spear tearing a 50-ft wide trench in the plains, but as the dust settles, you can see the castle stands unharmed. The epic monk casually wipes the dust from his hands and heads back inside.

jiriku
2009-11-06, 03:24 PM
Incidentally, is alignment an issue? You'd almost inevitably be killing lots of innocents.

What would happen in the Ethereal when a KE weapon hits? Do other overlapping planes exist in the gameworld?

A Gargantuan bipedal creature with Str 32 could lift eight tons as a heavy load, but it'd take CL 24 to teleport one Gargantuan creature along with you.

My character is true neutral tending towards neutral evil. I cart around a neutral good cleric cohort specifically to use him as my confessor. If he gets upset and decides to leave...well, you can't be an Evil Genius (TM) if you don't consider your minions to be expendable.

As for the border ethereal, I imagine the furniture would get rearranged somewhat over there, yeah.

You're correct about needing CL24 to teleport a gargantuan creature carrying eight tons of lead. However, I also need CL24 to create the eight tons of lead in the first place, so you can bet I have a solution. My patented Red Wizard Circle Dance makes achieving a caster level of 24 fairly trivial, even at 12th level, where I'm at currently. DMG prestige classes FTW!

Stormthorn
2009-11-10, 08:56 PM
and then drop the projectile

"I release the projectile."

DM: "It floats next to you."

If you just let it go in orbit it will stay in orbit where you let it go. Or rather, it will be sorta falling in such a way that it misses the ground. You can always push it down (toward earth) and out of orbit i guess. You need to be strong through. Especialy since you have no foothold or place to stand to give you leverage.


I don't think there's a spell that says "you automatically hit",
Their is however a level one spell that give you +20 to To Hit.