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alexthemad
2009-10-21, 04:31 PM
I was browsing through PrC's looking for something interesting and I come across the Green Star Adept from Com Arcane. Looks interesting to me, so I think Wiz 2-5/Green Star Adept 10/Something?

Anybody out there that has played one? Any recommendations for the build? Or do you think it's just plain dumb?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-21, 04:35 PM
I was browsing through PrC's looking for something interesting and I come across the Green Star Adept from Com Arcane. Looks interesting to me, so I think Wiz 2-5/Green Star Adept 10/Something?

Anybody out there that has played one? Any recommendations for the build? Or do you think it's just plain dumb?

Why would anyone become a level 10 one? You lose Con...
I can see stopping at 5 or 4, but ten?
Con is practically 50% of your life if a warrior and 70% is a caster.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 04:35 PM
Biggest trap there is. It comes off as a Gish PrC, but loses 5 CLs, has Medium (!?) BAB, and makes you lose your entire Con score (defeating the purpose entirely).


Not of the abilities are worth losing 5 caster levels and your Con score. And every level requires some of your WBL just for you to take it.

obtusehobbit
2009-10-21, 04:49 PM
The Green Star Adept can be a powerful PrC if used properly it is very niche but has its uses. As started you should never go to level 10 the Con loss is not worth the benefit unless your con is bad already then maybe.

The big benefit is the The Improved Caster Abilty combined with the fact it does advances casting normally. So by level 20 you can get a base caster level in the 24-25 range with Green Star Adept. This is useful for spells like Wings of Flurry or any spell that does not have a capped effect based on caster level.

Now outside of that the PrC is fairly poor, and there are other better ways to get high caster levels, but the Green Star Adept is a fun flavorful class that can be used to great effect.

Rules Note: There are some who disagree that the Improved Caster Ability stacks with the normal advancement. So as always check with your DM before using.

alexthemad
2009-10-21, 04:51 PM
Wow, I guess I missed the part about losing your Con completely.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-21, 04:57 PM
Wow, I guess I missed the part about losing your Con completely.

Comes with becoming a Construct, unfortunately. I agree with Sinfire's assessment; it's hard to think of another PrC that nerfs you more.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 04:59 PM
Comes with becoming a Construct, unfortunately. I agree with Sinfire's assessment; it's hard to think of another PrC that nerfs you more.

Spellsword comes close. You really got to look around. Most of the 3.0 PrCs that got updated in 3.5 were pretty bad...

alexthemad
2009-10-21, 05:01 PM
Hmm, well...I am looking for something different but effective to play in a high level game. I had never seen the Adept before...ever. Guess now I know why.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 05:03 PM
Hmm, well...I am looking for something different but effective to play in a high level game. I had never seen the Adept before...ever. Guess now I know why.

Like what? What classes are currently being played? What have you played?

Iku Rex
2009-10-21, 05:05 PM
Build from an older GSA thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4168583&postcount=64 .

TheDarkDM
2009-10-21, 05:07 PM
I once played a Green Star Adept in a short lived Red Hand of Doom Campaign. However, I went into the PRC from Duskblade, rather than Wizard / Fighter(or other martial class). The good thing about that is that you're less reliant on spells from the beginning, and Duskblade's full BAB helps make up for the 3/4 BAB of Green Star. As previously stated, under no circumstance should you go to 10th level as Green Star, but going until 7 - 9 could work, and give you a nice bonus to Strength, natural fortification, and some fairly hard to overcome DR.

alexthemad
2009-10-21, 05:08 PM
I have mostly only played wizards and psions, even a cerebromancer. I had a rogue and a cleric for a short stint. I would like to stay in the wizard type class, just with something different but effective.

Right now the party consists of a favored soul, a duskblade, a ranger, 2 warforged (1 fighter, 1 psion/fighter), a warlock, and a necromancer.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 05:10 PM
I have mostly only played wizards and psions, even a cerebromancer. I had a rogue and a cleric for a short stint. I would like to stay in the wizard type class, just with something different but effective.

Right now the party consists of a favored soul, a duskblade, a ranger, 2 warforged (1 fighter, 1 psion/fighter), a warlock, and a necromancer.

Sounds like you could do well with a Crusader or Meldshaper.

alexthemad
2009-10-21, 05:26 PM
Thanks! I'll sure take a look at them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-21, 07:49 PM
Warforged takes everything that is good about GSA, with none of the downsides, and without screwing over your casting progression.

Thurbane
2009-10-21, 08:23 PM
Everyone will tell you GSA sucks, but it is a very falvorful PrC, and - assuming you're not concentrating on making a full caster - it's not as bad as everyone will have you believe.

It's not a PrC that anyone who is primarily interested in being a caster should take, but it isn't so horrible for a gish who doesn't mind limited casting...
Comes with becoming a Construct, unfortunately. I agree with Sinfire's assessment; it's hard to think of another PrC that nerfs you more.
Dragon Disciple? :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-10-21, 08:32 PM
Dragon Disciple? :smalltongue:
Outside of the schrodinger effect, it's not thaaaat bad. At least it doesn't take away half your hp when you finish.

Thurbane
2009-10-21, 08:41 PM
Outside of the schrodinger effect, it's not thaaaat bad. At least it doesn't take away half your hp when you finish.
True, DD isn't bad for a melee type who has a dip in arcane casting. For 4 levels, at least...

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-21, 09:58 PM
So Here's a question. Say a necropolitan (LM) decides he wants to be a greenstar adept. Does he keep the d12 HD he had as an undead or change to the class appropriate HD from each of his classes when he reaches GSA 10?

Mongoose87
2009-10-21, 10:05 PM
So Here's a question. Say a necropolitan (LM) decides he wants to be a greenstar adept. Does he keep the d12 HD he had as an undead or change to the class appropriate HD from each of his classes when he reaches GSA 10?

Seems to me that there's little reason to want to get the features of GSA when you're already undead.

Myrmex
2009-10-21, 10:09 PM
Seems to me that there's little reason to want to get the features of GSA when you're already undead.

Maybe you no longer want to be an unholy blasphemy?:smallwink:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-21, 10:12 PM
Seems to me that there's little reason to want to get the features of GSA when you're already undead.

How about avoiding LA since the necropolitan doesn't have one and gets nothing beyond undead traits. GSA offers decent DR, a natural attack in case I find myself unarmed for some reason, low-light vision, and immunity to positive energy spells. The necropolitan template adds none of these things. 20d12 +20 seems like a decent HP count for a fighter type that has that much going for him.

Edit: I forgot the change in type means he's not subject to turning anymore either.

Mongoose87
2009-10-21, 10:13 PM
Maybe you no longer want to be an unholy blasphemy?:smallwink:

Sorry, what?

Stycotl
2009-10-21, 10:31 PM
now i am feeling an urge to remix the green star adept and see if we can't make it decent...

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-21, 10:33 PM
Tis a trap. Make yourself I fine weapon from that metal you need to eat, and if construct is your goal go Renegade Mastermaker. Having played a GSA I can confirm that it sucks. Alot.

Iku Rex
2009-10-21, 10:38 PM
Having played a GSA I can confirm that it sucks. Alot.Please elaborate.

Akal Saris
2009-10-21, 11:09 PM
Sounds like you could do well with a Crusader or Meldshaper.

Sinfire, you would have said that no matter WHAT he replied! :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2009-10-21, 11:22 PM
How about avoiding LA since the necropolitan doesn't have one and gets nothing beyond undead traits. GSA offers decent DR, a natural attack in case I find myself unarmed for some reason, low-light vision, and immunity to positive energy spells. The necropolitan template adds none of these things. 20d12 +20 seems like a decent HP count for a fighter type that has that much going for him.

Edit: I forgot the change in type means he's not subject to turning anymore either.

20d12+20=155 hp.
20d10+80=194 hp.

Someone who uses the Elite Array and plays a non-con boosting race as a Fighter 20 beats you by 39 hp. Someone who might be, say, a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Totemist could be quadrupling your HP total.

Harperfan7
2009-10-21, 11:23 PM
I have to argue that a lvl 10 GSA doesn't really NEED con. He has the hp of a 12 con character, d8(?) health, and DR 10/adamantine. He's immune to sneak attack/critical hits and pretty much everything else.

I would gladly take all 10.

BobVosh
2009-10-21, 11:31 PM
20d12+20=155 hp.
20d10+80=194 hp.

Someone who uses the Elite Array and plays a non-con boosting race as a Fighter 20 beats you by 39 hp. Someone who might be, say, a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Totemist could be quadrupling your HP total.

Lets not forget that barbarian on its own gets +80 HP for raging. Thats >1/2 your full hp as GSA.

20D12+120 assuming a base of 14 con with no items.

sofawall
2009-10-21, 11:49 PM
I have to argue that a lvl 10 GSA doesn't really NEED con. He has the hp of a 12 con character, d8(?) health, and DR 10/adamantine. He's immune to sneak attack/critical hits and pretty much everything else.

I would gladly take all 10.

I have to argue a level 20 Barbarian doesn't really NEED con. Sure is nice though.

14+4 Dragonborn Water Orc+6 item+8 rage=32 con

20d12+220=355, and DR 5/-. That's a lot of sneak attacks.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 12:11 AM
20d12+20=155 hp.
20d10+80=194 hp.

Someone who uses the Elite Array and plays a non-con boosting race as a Fighter 20 beats you by 39 hp. Someone who might be, say, a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Totemist could be quadrupling your HP total.

Wait a tic, 20d10? does the change in type at GSA 10 change your class HD to d10's? If that's the case, then the change to undead doesn't do much at all. If, on the other hand, you keep the HD the classes granted, then at least 10 of those should be d8's and at least one should be a d8 or smaller unless there's an arcane class that grants a d10 HD that I'm forgetting about. In which case, the step up to d12 would be somewhat more helpful, especially seeing as you could take levels in classes with small HD but otherwise good class features.

(If the HD are changed to d10's by the change in type, could someone site where that's stated?)

edit: I know it's completely off-topic, but can someone please tell me how to change the little thing under my name? I don't want to be a pixie in the playground :(

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 12:18 AM
edit: I know it's completely off-topic, but can someone please tell me how to change the little thing under my name? I don't want to be a pixie in the playground :(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45659

("The User Title that appears under your User Name changes over time in relation to your post count total.")

sofawall
2009-10-22, 12:22 AM
Wait a tic, 20d10? does the change in type at GSA 10 change your class HD to d10's? If that's the case, then the change to undead doesn't do much at all. If, on the other hand, you keep the HD the classes granted, then at least 10 of those should be d8's and at least one should be a d8 or smaller unless there's an arcane class that grants a d10 HD that I'm forgetting about. In which case, the step up to d12 would be somewhat more helpful, especially seeing as you could take levels in classes with small HD but otherwise good class features.

(If the HD are changed to d10's by the change in type, could someone site where that's stated?)

edit: I know it's completely off-topic, but can someone please tell me how to change the little thing under my name? I don't want to be a pixie in the playground :(

20d12 is the GSA.

20d10 is hypothetical Elite Array Fighter 20.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 12:45 AM
@ Iku Rex: thanks, I appreciate the help.

@ sofa wall: okay, now that makes more sense. Problem there is that with a fighter 20 build you don't get 10pnts of DR or any of the tasty immunities of constructs or undead, nevermind the arcane goodness, little as it may be. For a straight HP comparison there are ways to get it clear-to-the-stratosphere high. Someone pointed out a straight barb 20 for example. Besides, 39 HP is only puts the fighter at about 112.5% of the GSA's hp if the combination of template and class feature works together that way. 12.5 % isn't much of a bump to my eyes :)

sofawall
2009-10-22, 12:55 AM
Someone pointed out a straight barb 20 for example.

That was also me :P


I have to argue a level 20 Barbarian doesn't really NEED con. Sure is nice though.

14+4 Dragonborn Water Orc+6 item+8 rage=32 con

20d12+220=355, and DR 5/-. That's a lot of sneak attacks.




Besides, 39 HP is only puts the fighter at about 112.5% of the GSA's hp if the combination of template and class feature works together that way. 12.5 % isn't much of a bump to my eyes :)

Is 1/8 a better bump? Because they are the same, yet many see them as very different.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 01:37 AM
Actually, 1/8th looks about the same to me. But I like to think about numbers alot :P I'm also aware that people perceive the two figures (1/8th and 12.5%) differently. In fact, I chose 12.5% deliberately to make it feel smaller than it would have if I'd said 1/8th :) In any-case, I've actually started a thread about this on the WotC forum to see what the rules lawyers that still hang around over there think of the combination of Undeath + GSA 10. Should be interesting, I hope.

Solaris
2009-10-22, 01:58 AM
now i am feeling an urge to remix the green star adept and see if we can't make it decent...

The Mustache recommends either adding Str mod or Cha mod to HP rolls for the construct PCs.

Korivan
2009-10-22, 02:58 AM
Has anyone even mentioned the fact that it costs a grand just to get into the class, then another grand for each level. Also a full week of ingame time for level one, and another 9 days ingame for the rest of the levels. I know some people like this class but its hard for me to justify the following...

1. 10 grand for all levels. Thats money better spent elsewhere.

2. 16 days ingame time brewing a potion. If you got a group that doesn't mind the delays, or if you just skip past this stuff not so bad.

3. Requires the feat Combat Casting. I'd rather not open that can of worms, I'll let you search the forums for that rant.

4. 16 skill points invested in a wide and situational useful areas.

5. Casting progression. Sure, you don't lose out on caster level, but alot of the real power for casters is spell slots, and how high you can go. Gishes can make do with less, but I tend to find full casters can be gishes just as well sometimes.

6. Damage Reduction...seriously? Has anyone taken the time to compile just how many ways that can be bypassed? Sure, after a while its cheaper then stoneskin or greater stoneskin, going with 10 levels of this equals 10,000. Thats 40 castings of stoneskin or greater stoneskin.

7. Starmetal itself. Be sure to find out how easy it is to find this stuff before you try to take this class. Or you may find yourself stranded before you complete your build. Also be sure to let your DM know what starmetal is if they don't already know.

8. A boost to the strength is nice but not always needed even for gishes, yet I cringe at the Dex lose. Improving your natural armor is nice, if you have it (the text doesn't actually say you gain any, make sure you do despite what your DM says), but remember its worthless against touch attacks.

9. Natural attacks. Pftttt. Even in simple weapons, your going to find better.

10. Fortification. Ya, its cheaper then enchanting your armour(finaly, your saving money), but remember, your gonna qualify as a construct soon, and theres ways around your fortification.

11. Vision. I look at this the same as the monks list of stuff. Sure, some of its nice, but its like giving me a knick knack to buy a car.

12. Rapid Repair. COOL!!!! You have Regeneration 1...oh wait, no, regeneration lets you re-attach limbs and stuff.

13. Metabalism, Emeraled Perection...Be a warforged, cast Iron Body, etc. The nice thing is your immortal, but really, any given adventurers lifespan isn't short because of old age, but rather what they step in before old age.

So, ya, if you like this class, go for it. Personaly, I think theres better gishes out there. And if your not going for the magic/warrior motife, then why bother with this at all?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-10-22, 07:44 AM
I've seen a few played even all the way to level ten...
Honestly the no con score i've never seen a detriment to...

Though the two times i've seen it the players had a blast and we where an optimised party.


A good fix for this class seeing as it came out before ebberon is to make it a living construct instead.. I'd take the starmetal construct thing and make it into a warforged with the adimantite armour feat instead... so just add the racial abilities of a warforged to you character at ten(used that style in a game once it worked out realy well)


Korivan: ya its realy about talking with your gm.
Like i said in the two games i played in with GSA's in it... they bother had the gp cost droped and the the time was still there but the ritual could be done on the move seeing as it was pritty much just eating the star metal.

Tetsubo 57
2009-10-22, 08:03 AM
What has always mystified me is why this PrC is attractive to *anyone*. If you go below 0 hit points, you die. That right there is a non-starter for me.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 08:12 AM
That, combined with the lack of con bonus is a real problem. If Im a meatshield, my general areas of specialty are either tanking or stabbing things to death. Both, with a good build, with a side order of tripping or another means of CC.

GSA doesn't do much for tanking ability, given the lack of con and death when you reach 0 hp. DR is nice, but sacrificing significant amounts of HP for it ends up being a bad trade, because it's least effective against high damage hits. You end up being a great mook killer, but sucking against the evil stuff.

Crappy BaB sorta rules out the stabbing things to death.

Honestly, I'd just take warforged with adamantine body. Yay, DR at level 1, when it actually matters. Also, it eats my fighter bonus feats, instead of a regular feat as combat casting would. If you want to be a gish, take the other armor upgrade feat for warforged instead. Either way will get you more goodies, much faster than GSA.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 08:44 AM
As has been said... a Warforged Wizard or Psion can curbstomp a GSA of equal level at just about everything they do. I wouldn't quite say "avoid like the plague," but I can think of several plagues I'd rather have, you know?

Fluffles
2009-10-22, 08:49 AM
Play a strait warblade 20. You'll be much better off.


And comparing ANYTHING to a fighter is a very bad idea.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 08:52 AM
Well, when you compare it to straight fighter, and it still looks rather doubtful....that's a bit of a sign, eh?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 08:55 AM
Sinfire, you would have said that no matter WHAT he replied! :smallbiggrin:

Can you blame me? I wrote the handbooks for both of those, after all. The Crusader's Handbook is still only partially complete, but Feats are up.

Diamondeye
2009-10-22, 09:46 AM
This PrC is a major pain in the ass for the DM too because A) now he has to deal with you being a green-skinned freak and how people react to that and B) he has to come up with ways for you to obtain starmetal. Unless he wants to let you just have it, that's going to be some work, and it could involve the entire campaign getting derailed every level while the party or the character goes to look for more.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 09:51 AM
This PrC is a major pain in the ass for the DM too because A) now he has to deal with you being a green-skinned freak and how people react to that and B) he has to come up with ways for you to obtain starmetal. Unless he wants to let you just have it, that's going to be some work, and it could involve the entire campaign getting derailed every level while the party or the character goes to look for more.

Some DM's see a pain, others see opportunity for character development. I, for one, like to see my players flesh out their characters, and am more than willing to work in things like that. As for the green skinned freak comment, I think there are a number of half-orcs that would like a word with you. (That's a subtle way of saying that pc's that are a bit freaky are hardly uncommon :P )

jiriku
2009-10-22, 10:23 AM
This PrC is a major pain in the ass for the DM too because A) now he has to deal with you being a green-skinned freak and how people react to that and B) he has to come up with ways for you to obtain starmetal. Unless he wants to let you just have it, that's going to be some work, and it could involve the entire campaign getting derailed every level while the party or the character goes to look for more.


A green-skinned semi-construct isn't necessarily going to be the weirdest-looking character in a typical D&D party. Wasn't it earlier in this thread someone was suggesting a water orc barbarian as an alternative to a GSA?

The concerns about DM support are valid, but all that can be resolved by, you know, talking to your DM while you're building the character and only choosing a GSA build if the DM supports the idea.




I think what makes this class stick in the craw of so many players is that they see it as a step down from a full caster, rather than a step up from a straight fighter, ranger, knight, or paladin (and it IS a step up). The GSA has several strengths over most of the traditional melee classes:

More options: even low level spells are better than bonus feats or the trash class features most melee classes get at mid/upper levels.
Slightly better attack progression: I think most people miss the fact that +7 BAB and +6 Str > +10 BA.
Dramatically better defenses: the GSA unquestionably brings formidable defenses to the table. That these defenses can be obtained elsewhere for staggering sums of WBL doesn't negate that fact.

Now, is this class an optimizer's dream? Obviously not. But if one of my players wanted to play one, I wouldn't tell him he was making a mistake.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 11:21 AM
Some DM's see a pain, others see opportunity for character development. I, for one, like to see my players flesh out their characters, and am more than willing to work in things like that. As for the green skinned freak comment, I think there are a number of half-orcs that would like a word with you. (That's a subtle way of saying that pc's that are a bit freaky are hardly uncommon :P )

Question: How the hell do you flesh out someone who's slowly becoming a chunk of living metal?


I think what makes this class stick in the craw of so many players is that they see it as a step down from a full caster, rather than a step up from a straight fighter, ranger, knight, or paladin (and it IS a step up). The GSA has several strengths over most of the traditional melee classes:

More options: even low level spells are better than bonus feats or the trash class features most melee classes get at mid/upper levels.
Slightly better attack progression: I think most people miss the fact that +7 BAB and +6 Str > +10 BA.
Dramatically better defenses: the GSA unquestionably brings formidable defenses to the table. That these defenses can be obtained elsewhere for staggering sums of WBL doesn't negate that fact.

Now, is this class an optimizer's dream? Obviously not. But if one of my players wanted to play one, I wouldn't tell him he was making a mistake.


It isn't a step up if you take the capstone. For starters, the DR and bonus HP you get from being a Construct do not rival your Con score.

First of all, +6 Str doesn't make up for 3 BAB. War Hulk taught CO this. While it is a nice boost, its a step down from Full BAB. And IIRC, the Str bonus from the class is typed.

Secondly, staggering? Maybe in a low wealth campaign, but if you have at least the average WBL or know what feats to take, or what classes, you can get the same benefits fairly cheaply. At the very least, keeping your Con score gets you better HP than this class would provide you. Fact: Con is the second easiest stat to boost (the first being Strength).

Third, and finally, the spells are more or less irrelevant. Only select low level spells make a difference in high level combat, and usually you have to apply gratuitous amounts of metamagic. If its under 4th level, don't expect it to contribute much unless its a highly advocated spell (Glitterdust, for example). Because the class gets only 5 levels of advancement, your spells/day are going to lag behind (meaning metamagic isn't usable as much as you may need it), your save DCs are going to be poor, and your spells known will be very limited.

On a class like Suel or Duskblade, the benefits are visible. But if you enter with Paladin/Wizard or other multiclassed builds that require two base classes, you will fall far behind compared to the single-classed characters of both classes.

If it had Full BAB, it would at least be dip-worthy. If it had 8/10th spellcasting, it would be a lot better.

Lysander
2009-10-22, 01:04 PM
The one nice thing about GSA is that you can make a campaign that lasts hundreds or thousands of years.

DM: After the dragon is dead you go off on your separate ways. Then six-thousand years later...

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:08 PM
Sorry, what?

Uh, I mean, that, uh, perhaps he tires of paladins jumping him?

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 01:22 PM
I think Jiriku has a point about the GSA being a way to give a melee type a little magical kick, rather than a way to full-on gish. For instance, say you use a lvl of warlock to enter the class, now you've got 3 least and a lesser invocation at GSA 10. I'm sure that there's a few useful items there. and while the loss of 3pnts of BAB sucks, it's hardly the end of the world, especially seeing as your overall attack bonus is still 10/10. The biggest drawback I'm seeing is still the HP difference. Although that's certainly a detriment hp loss isn't the game's biggest killer by a long shot anyway.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:23 PM
The hit to the fort save is also pretty bad. Disintegrate is a nasty spell.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 01:25 PM
While I do agree with Sinfire that this class is sub-par, I will point out that the STR bonus is untyped.

In addition to the penalties mentioned above, the class also loses Dexterity (-3 over its career). In addition, both fort and reflex are weak saves - losing one is bad enough, losing both (especially fort) is all but unforgiveable for a gish. Sure you become immune to poison, death effects etc. at the capstone, but until then you're vulnerable to those things. Not to mention, effects that work on objects will always affect you (think Disintegrate) as well as fort saves that don't fall in the "poison/necromancy" category (think Baleful Polymorph/Flesh to Stone/Gust of Wind/Implosion etc.)

The biggest disadvantage by far has already been stated, but bears repeating. You can't be healed anymore at the capstone, and you die instantly at 0 HP. These are extremely fatal disadvantages for any frontliner to have.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 01:26 PM
Also, 11 levels of missed class features from your melee class.

Even for fighter, thats a good amount of feats.

On a side note, warlock spells still suffer arcane failure, right? That strikes me as limiting it to gish-styled builds anyhow, rather than just being something you tack on any old meleer.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 01:30 PM
Also, 11 levels of missed class features from your melee class.

Even for fighter, thats a good amount of feats.

On a side note, warlock spells still suffer arcane failure, right? That strikes me as limiting it to gish-styled builds anyhow, rather than just being something you tack on any old meleer.
Warlocks only have ASF for meduim and heavy armor. Just like Bards.
Armor mage lets you cast in meduim armor.
Mithral lowers that issue.

So if you wanted better armor: Mithral Full Plate + Armored Mage feat or Mithral Breastplate + no feat = work.

I doubt 5 feats will matter that much.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:30 PM
While I do agree with Sinfire that this class is sub-par, I will point out that the STR bonus is untyped.

In addition to the penalties mentioned above, the class also loses Dexterity (-3 over its career). In addition, both fort and reflex are weak saves - losing one is bad enough, losing both (especially fort) is all but unforgiveable for a gish. Sure you become immune to poison, death effects etc. at the capstone, but until then you're vulnerable to those things. Not to mention, effects that work on objects will always affect you (think Disintegrate) as well as fort saves that don't fall in the "poison/necromancy" category (think Baleful Polymorph/Flesh to Stone/Gust of Wind/Implosion etc.)

That -3 to dex means your touch AC is worse, too. And some of the nastiest spells require a touch attack.


The biggest disadvantage by far has already been stated, but bears repeating. You can't be healed anymore at the capstone, and you die instantly at 0 HP. These are extremely fatal disadvantages for any frontliner to have.

Is there a resurrect construct spell? Cause without one, you're a bit boned.

EleventhHour
2009-10-22, 01:31 PM
The one nice thing about GSA is that you can make a campaign that lasts hundreds or thousands of years.

DM: After the dragon is dead you go off on your separate ways. Then six-thousand years later...

Wrong order!

Then six thousand years later, the dragon dies of old age, and you loot the cave without encounter.

Blackfang108
2009-10-22, 01:44 PM
Wrong order!

Then six thousand years later, the dragon dies of old age, and you loot the cave without encounter.

And there is a LOT more loot, lettign you get Epic-levle loot to make up for what you've lost, and then some.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 01:46 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think that becoming a construct through GSA renders you irresurectable (I think I just coined a new word) The drop in touch ac isn't all that bad, after all how many spell-casters are going to get close enough to touch this metal man that's radiating magic of his own and swinging a fat beatstick anyway. Being vulnerable to ranged touches sucks pretty good though. Disintegrate......... ouch. But avoiding ranged attacks of all types is only as difficult as getting close enough to squish the other guy anyway. The loss on reflex saves is almost negligible. After all what are we talking about..... a fireball? Some other blasting spell that's widely considered inferior simply for being a blasting spell? I'm going to go work up a gsa now ;p

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 01:49 PM
GSA still allows resurrection that would've worked on your previous form.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 01:52 PM
Reflex saves come up a lot, both in traps and in damage spells. Low reflex save combined with low hit points actually makes nuking you to death surprisingly viable. Damage resistance doesn't do jack for you then.

As for "I doubt five feats will matter that much", those five feats can probably give you more survivability and damage that you gain from the class. Also, this is in fighter, not exactly the pinnacle of melee classes. The fact that you can make it sorta, almost as good as a fighter isn't saying much.

Jothki
2009-10-22, 02:06 PM
Is dying at 0 at higher levels really that much worse than dying at -10? It's worth less than 10 extra hp, since for the last 10 you'd be unconscious.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 02:08 PM
Is dying at 0 at higher levels really that much worse than dying at -10? It's worth less than 10 extra hp, since for the last 10 you'd be unconscious.

Last 9, no? At 0, you can still take a standard action.

But yeah, being unconscious is a lot better than being dead. It's worth less than 10 extra hp, but it's still pretty valuable. Combining that with losing a lot of hit points is concerning.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 02:08 PM
I'm going to link to this old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76958&page=2) again. I addressed pretty much every single objection raised in this thread.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 02:50 PM
Anything directly construct-related is about as good as a Warforged would give you. So that's +6 Str, +6 NA, +5 caster level, DR 10/adamantine, and 20 HP in exchange for -3 Dex, loss of constitution, and -3 BAB. That comes out to +3 damage, +4 AC (-2 touch), +5 CL, DR 10/adamantine, lower saves, and a few dozen lost HP. I'll take warblade levels or any other PrC.

sofawall
2009-10-22, 03:16 PM
Anything directly construct-related is about as good as a Warforged would give you. So that's +6 Str, +6 NA, +5 caster level, DR 10/adamantine, and 20 HP in exchange for -3 Dex, loss of constitution, and -3 BAB. That comes out to +3 damage, +4 AC (-2 touch), +5 CL, DR 10/adamantine, lower saves, and a few dozen lost HP. I'll take warblade levels or any other PrC.

6 str = 4 damage, 3 to-hit.
3 BAB= 6-24 damage, 3 to-hit.

I like BAB, myself.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 03:24 PM
I just can't reconcile having weak fort AND reflex for 10 levels on a tank, AND only being granted immunity to the kinds of things that make a fort save matter (death effects, poison, paralysis, disease, what have you) at the capstone. The full penalty to touch attacks applies as early as 7, meaning you are at your most vulnerable for the last 3 levels of the class.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 03:24 PM
Anything directly construct-related is about as good as a Warforged would give you. Not even close.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 03:50 PM
6 str = 4 damage, 3 to-hit.
3 BAB= 6-24 damage, 3 to-hit.
+6 str = +4.5 damage, +3 to-hit, +3 to Str checks and skills
+3 BAB = +3 to hit.

Let me guess - Shock Trooper/ubercharger? Because if you can't one-shot the tarrasque your character is utterly useless!

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 03:55 PM
+6 str = +4.5 damage, +3 to-hit, +3 to Str checks and skills
+3 BAB = +3 to hit.

Let me guess - Shock Trooper/ubercharger? Because if you can't one-shot the tarrasque your character is utterly useless!

BaB also helps iterative attacks, yknow?

sofawall
2009-10-22, 03:59 PM
+6 str = +4.5 damage, +3 to-hit, +3 to Str checks and skills
+3 BAB = +3 to hit.

Let me guess - Shock Trooper/ubercharger? Because if you can't one-shot the tarrasque your character is utterly useless!

Let me guess, you have an irrational dislike of optimization and make claims about others, having nothing to base them on?

If you can't one-shot the Tarrasque, you are not a fully optimized uber-charger.

My trip-monkey cannot one shot the Tarrasque, but he can trip him 95% of the time (damn natural ones...). He is still useful.

My rogue cannot one shot the Tarrasque. He can still swindle anyone out of anything, and have them liking him for it.

My Wizard doesn't one shot the Tarrasque, he Gates in a dragon to do it for him.

My GSA doesn't one shot the Tarrasque, he... Doesn't get poisoned by it?


This is not so much a case of "GSA is useless!" but more a case of "Fighter/Barbarian/Warblade/Hexblade/Crusader/many others are better than GSA!"

jiriku
2009-10-22, 04:32 PM
Iku, after reading your thread on the GSA, I'm intrigued to see what we could do if we reconstructed your build with Sinfire Titan's suggestion of Suel Arcanamach. I've seen an arcanamach build in the Iron Chef competition that blended SA and abjurant champion to good effect; I'd be interested to see what could be done with the abjuration-improving powers of those two classes added to the GSA. I'll tinker with it and post tonight....

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 04:38 PM
+6 str = +4.5 damage, +3 to-hit, +3 to Str checks and skills
+3 BAB = +3 to hit.

Let me guess - Shock Trooper/ubercharger? Because if you can't one-shot the tarrasque your character is utterly useless!

Its DnD. One-shotting Big T is child's play.


Surviving 4 encounters/day is more important than one-shotting Big T. GSA doesn't get you that ability, it takes it away from you.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 04:48 PM
Let me guess, you have an irrational dislike of optimization and make claims about others, having nothing to base them on? "Nothing to base them on"? Are you saying you weren't assuming Shock Trooper in your post? Then where did the 6-24 damage come from?

I have nothing against optimization. I do have a perfectly rational dislike of dragging theoretical optimization (including what ought to be considered TO) into threads where it's not appropriate. When you simply assume, without further explanation, that +3 BAB means 6-24 extra damage I think it's reasonable to suspect you of this.


My GSA doesn't one shot the Tarrasque, he... Doesn't get poisoned by it?He has excellent AC, good melee damage, useful arcane spellcasting/buffs, immunity to a long list of conditions and effects, immortality, darkvision, low-light vision, high permanent DR... Why do you need this repeated?

This is not so much a case of "GSA is useless!" but more a case of "Fighter/Barbarian/Warblade/Hexblade/Crusader/many others are better than GSA!"Better at what? Characters excel at different things. It's an important part of the game. The GSA has powerful abilities that can be useful in almost any party.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 04:56 PM
"Nothing to base them on"? Are you saying you weren't assuming Shock Trooper in your post? Then where did the 6-24 damage come from?

Well, 6 of it comes from Power Attacking for 3 and hitting twice with a one-handed weapon. Easily done as a Fighter.

PAing for 3 with a two-hander nets 6 damage/attack. 24 damage right there if you can connect with 4 attacks (easily done with Robilar's Gambit or other AoO-based feats).



If he said 40 damage, you could make an argument for Shock Trooper, but he doesn't even need it if he can get his attack bonus on his 4th attack above 45 (somewhat tedious, but possible to do).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 04:58 PM
"Nothing to base them on"? Are you saying you weren't assuming Shock Trooper in your post? Then where did the 6-24 damage come from?
That's not 6d4 damage, which is impossible with power attack. That's "anywhere from 6 to 24 damage". 6 is with basic Power Attack. 24 is after Leap Attack and similar shenanigans. He should have made the "or" there more clear, though.


that +3 BAB means 6-24 extra damage I think it's reasonable to suspect you of this.
Power Attacking for 3 is nowhere near theoretical optimization. It can be done in core, and deals 6 extra damage.


He has excellent AC, good melee damage, useful arcane spellcasting/buffs, immunity to a long list of conditions and effects, immortality, darkvision, low-light vision, high permanent DR... Why do you need this repeated?

He doesn't have excellent AC and useful spellcasting at the same time, due to spell failure. If you factor in Mithral Twilight, maybe, but then you're only 2 AC points above Mithral Full Plate. Decent, but compared to other abilities...
Where's his melee damage coming from? He has three damage over a straight fighter, which is less than most PrCs could give.
Immunities you can get from a race, as with immortality (Warforged/Necropolitan). Low-light vision and Darkvision are trivial in this power level of discussion (14th-ish level).
DR's the best selling point, but that's balanced by the large hp loss.

Stycotl
2009-10-22, 05:05 PM
so, for my fix, i am contemplating the following (this will by no means be a complete summary, as i intend to give it some unique abilities too):

--full bab (maybe 3/4 if it can't be justified)

--at least 7/10 casting

--living construct right off the bat or within the first few levels

--might have a gradual gain of full construct abilities

--if full construct is eventually gained, another key stat to hit points, fort saves, and concentration checks instead of con; replacement stat in question is still debatable

--nix the dex penalties; might have to nix strength bonus also, but we'll see...

--require starmetal for initial ritual only; from then on, component starmetal is being grown like a crystal; one of the unique abilities that i am thinking of would be a nifty power upon consumption of more starmetal at later dates

i had a few other ideas for it before i left school, but i will have to see if i can reclaim them from the dark depths of my brain. if any of you have any suggestions or questions, feel free to let me have them.

i am tempted to make this a sublime class. if people don't like that idea, i might make a normal version, and then a sublime version (which would probably lose more caster levels and some natural armor, for starters).

sofawall
2009-10-22, 05:09 PM
"Nothing to base them on"? Are you saying you weren't assuming Shock Trooper in your post? Then where did the 6-24 damage come from?

I have nothing against optimization. I do have a perfectly rational dislike of dragging theoretical optimization (including what ought to be considered TO) into threads where it's not appropriate. When you simply assume, without further explanation, that +3 BAB means 6-24 extra damage I think it's reasonable to suspect you of this.

And you assume everyone is wielding a weapon 2 handed. I was posting some likely scenarios, as Shock Trooper is a fairly common feat for anyone using Power Attack.


He has excellent AC, good melee damage, useful arcane spellcasting/buffs, immunity to a long list of conditions and effects, immortality, darkvision, low-light vision, high permanent DR... Why do you need this repeated?

Barbarians have slightly less DR, and much higher HP. They have a much higher Fort Save, and thus are unlikely to even need an immunity to poisons, disease or Death Effects. Negative levels do remain painful, however.

As for Darkvision and low-light vision, races have those commonly, or a cheap magic item can equal or best either of those.

As for the Immortality, the only time that has come up in any game I ever played was in an arena match where an enemy ghost just waited for me to die of old age. Not a typical strategy for an NPC, however.

Spellcasting is never bad, but could be better while gaining better things.

High AC: Well, the class costs you what, 10k gold? That's 1 natural+1 deflection+2 armour right there. Also, if you want to use your ever-vaunted casting, you will either stay out of additional armour, use spell slots, or pay even more money.


[Better at what? Characters excel at different things. It's an important part of the game. The GSA has powerful abilities that can be useful in almost any party.

Well, dealing damage and staying alive are what the barbarian beats the GSA at, in most situations.

Let me say this: If you're going into a death chamber filled with extremely deadly poisonous gases, you want a GSA over a barbarian. If you are being attack by a ton of monsters who deal 6-9 damage, you want a GSA over a barbarian. The GSA, however, is much more situational, whereas the Barbarian can kick butt in many situations. It's why SNA beats out over Stone Tell. You can always use another critter, but you won't always have rock to talk to.

Slightly ninja'd.

alexthemad
2009-10-22, 05:16 PM
Wow! I'm gone for one day and I have to read 68 posts to catch up. Good news is, my question has been answered. Bad news is, now I'm looking for another class. From everything I've read, this just isn't the class I was envisioning when I first read it. It still looks interesting to me, just not in this game that I'm entering. I'll probably revisit the GSA later.

Thanks for all of the great opinions and info.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 05:27 PM
What sort of concept did you have in mind?

jiriku
2009-10-22, 05:31 PM
If it contributes to the discussion, Donjon's power attack calculator suggests that given a +31 total hit bonus and AC 30 target, with the GSA having +11 BAB and the generic full bab melee having +16, base damage of 2d6+20 or 2d6+18, a full attack from each would deal 75 avg damage for the GSA and 78 avg damage for the generic alternative.

My impression is that you're both right. The full BAB build seems to deal about 5% more damage, which is what Sinfire Titan was saying. But both characters are dealing very respectable melee damage and have tricks and options. I can see A LOT of games in which a well-constructed GSA would contribute useful DPS, which is what Iku is saying.


Edit: Sigh...a pack of ninjas. Or is it a flock? Perhaps a gaggle?

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 05:35 PM
He doesn't have excellent AC and useful spellcasting at the same time, due to spell failure. If you factor in Mithral Twilight, maybe, but then you're only 2 AC points above Mithral Full Plate. Decent, but compared to other abilities...Spellsword, runesmith, fey-/githcraft, thistledown ... there are ways to avoid ASF. Or you can cast your AC buffs and then put on armor. Or you can use a feat to get Cha or Int to AC, and use spells and abjurant champion (and/or possibly paragnostic apostle) to boost your non-armor armor and shield bonuses.


Where's his melee damage coming from? He has three damage over a straight fighter, which is less than most PrCs could give.Buffs.


Immunities you can get from a race, as with immortality (Warforged/Necropolitan).So? Does that make them useless?

Low-light vision and Darkvision are trivial in this power level of discussion (14th-ish level). Not really. You can get it, but it will cost you resources (gps, spells, maybe item slots) that can't be used on other things.


DR's the best selling point, but that's balanced by the massive hp loss.Improved Toughness, good defenses, repair spells, temporary hit points ... there are ways to make it less of a problem.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 05:40 PM
I find it amusing that you talk about darkvision, something you can pick up for a coupla thousand gold via a magic item as "costing you resources", and then suggest using feats, spells, etc to mitigate the weaknesses.

The fact that you can get immunities easier via a template or racial choice is relevant. Keep in mind that these races/templates offer other things as well.

Warforged, for example, can still be healed normally. He only gets half hit points, true, but that's a lot better than the 0 a GSA gets, and both heal normally via repair spells.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 05:42 PM
Spellsword, runesmith, ((more examples)) Fair enough on the armor. Optimization "common knowledge" does point towards AC optimization being slightly subpar, though.


Buffs.
Batman wizard can give those to you anyway, and buffs can only go so far.


So? Does that make them useless?
No, but it makes the Green Star Adept less competitive. If you're arguing that the GSA can be effective, that's true; and I probably should stop posting. But I'm arguing that it's a notably inferior choice.


You can get it, but it will cost you resources (gps, spells, maybe item slots) that can't be used on other things.
Sort of like the starmetal reagants you need?


Improved Toughness, good defenses, repair spells, temporary hit points ... there are ways to make it less of a problem.

Each of which would work just as well or better with options that have more HP.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 06:00 PM
Barbarians have slightly less DR, and much higher HP. They have a much higher Fort Save, and thus are unlikely to even need an immunity to poisons, disease or Death Effects. Half the DR isn't really "slightly less". :smallsmile: Even if DR/- is better. And barbarians pay for that good Fort save with a bad Will save, which can be a problem.


As for the Immortality, the only time that has come up in any game I ever played was in an arena match where an enemy ghost just waited for me to die of old age. Not a typical strategy for an NPC, however.Sure, but it's something special a player might want for a character. Negligible as far as balance goes though, I'll give you that.


High AC: Well, the class costs you what, 10k gold? That's 1 natural+1 deflection+2 armour right there..Boo. If your melee character is getting buying +1 AC items at level 16 or so, the GSA levels are the least of your problems. More likely you'll be able to afford a +5 ring of protection rather than a +4 a little sooner.

(Unless you're spending all your money on items of darkvision, low-light vision, fortification and all the other items you can "just buy" to duplicate GSA abilities if some posts in this thread are to be believed.)


Well, dealing damage and staying alive are what the barbarian beats the GSA at, in most situations.I disagree.


Let me say this: If you're going into a death chamber filled with extremely deadly poisonous gases, you want a GSA over a barbarian. If you are being attack by a ton of monsters who deal 6-9 damage, you want a GSA over a barbarian. The GSA, however, is much more situational, whereas the Barbarian can kick butt in many situations. It's why SNA beats out over Stone Tell. You can always use another critter, but you won't always have rock to talk to.The barbarian is good at one thing - hitting monsters (he's capable of hitting) hard with a big axe.

No wraithstrike, no blink, no see invisible, no ability to become invisible, no energy resistance spells, no greater mirror image, no fly... Even lower level arcane casting adds a lot of versatility. A GSA can contribute in almost any situation.

alexthemad
2009-10-22, 06:00 PM
What sort of concept did you have in mind?

I usually play casters that teleport out of trouble via anklets of translocation, dimensional jaunt, and numerous other ways. I really enjoy playing casters, and so I was looking at playing something that doesn't "escape" trouble. So I guess I'm looking for something that is mainly a caster, but able to melee when needed.

On a side note, I just read the Master Transmogrifist from Com Arc. Wow! How would one choose their Favored Shapes with everything there is to choose from? I could spend days looking at Monster Manuels and SRD trying to decide.

sofawall
2009-10-22, 06:07 PM
Half the DR isn't really "slightly less". :smallsmile:

The numbers we are dealing with, half is slightly less. Half of 2 is slightly less. Half of 4 is slightly less.

Half of 10 is slightly less. When I have triple your health, I'm fine with taking 5 more damage per hit.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 06:11 PM
When I have triple your health, I'm fine with taking 5 more damage per hit.

Triple health? You'd need a +11ish modifier for that. Not exactly trivial (though certainly doable)

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 06:20 PM
Batman wizard can give those to you anyway, and buffs can only go so far.The party wizard can give you, say, blink? Even if he can, that would mean using spell slots and actions on buffs that can't be used on messing up the enemy.


Sort of like the starmetal reagants you need?Yes. (Of course, even darkvsion alone costs more than the starmetal reagents.)


Each of which would work just as well or better with options that have more HP.No. If you survive a battle, you can pull out a wand or scrolls and heal yourself to max HPs again.

Extra hit points are more valuable if you have few HPs. They're more likely to make a difference.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 06:33 PM
The numbers we are dealing with, half is slightly less. Half of 2 is slightly less. Half of 4 is slightly less.

Half of 10 is slightly less. When I have triple your health, I'm fine with taking 5 more damage per hit.Five more damage per attack could potentially mean double average damage taken on a full attack with natural weapons. It is not a trivial difference.

sofawall
2009-10-22, 06:35 PM
Triple health? You'd need a +11ish modifier for that. Not exactly trivial (though certainly doable)

Let's assume 10 Hexblade, 10 GSA. 10d10+10d8+20=124 hp.

Barbarian HP before con: 135. Need 237 more. A +12 modifier.

Well, let's see. A Dragonborn Water Orc has a +4 con, an item of +6 con and rage of +8 con gives us +18 con. Assume Elite Array, so a base of 14, and assume all level-up points went into Str. This gives us 32 con. 32 con gives us a modifier of +11. Not quite enough. Base Race Mongrelfolk would do it, but lose out on Str.

Maybe... 28 PB. 16/16/10/10/10/10. Net stats after racial, 20/20/8/8/8/8. Reasonable, I would think. That nets us triple the HP of a GSA, without optimizing con (putting level-up points into it, buying the inherent bonuses, picking a con race over a str one).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 06:39 PM
Extra hit points are more valuable if you have few HPs. They're more likely to make a difference.

Extra HP are more valuable if you can make them go farther. The more offense and non-HP defense you have, the more an HP is worth. GSA may have more defense, but is his offense good enough to really make those HP more worthwhile for him?

sofawall
2009-10-22, 06:53 PM
Five more damage per attack could potentially mean double average damage taken on a full attack with natural weapons. It is not a trivial difference.

Assuming all attacks hit, and none are crits (I suspect doing an AC and Crit comparison would slant it towards GSA for AC, and Barb when crits are brought in).

113 average damage for a tarrasque.
Against GSA: 53 (2.3 full attacks to kill)
Against Barbarian: 83 (4.5 full attacks to kill)

109 average damage for an Old Red Dragon
Against GSA: 49 (2.5 full attacks to kill)
Against Barbarian: 79 (4.7 full attacks to kill)

105 average damage for a Pit Fiend
Against GSA: 45 (2.7 full attacks to kill)
Against Barbarian: 75 (5 full attacks to kill)

164 average damage for a Titan
Against GSA: 164 (0.75 full attack to kill)
Against Barbarian: 144 (2.6 full attacks to kill)

I dunno, just from a damage:DR+HP standpoint, HP is winning hugely against DR.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 06:58 PM
Barb when crits are brought in).

GSA critical immunity, due to being a Construct? The sort of thing that GSA ostensibly lost a constitution score to get?

sofawall
2009-10-22, 07:04 PM
GSA critical immunity, due to being a Construct? The sort of thing that GSA ostensibly lost a constitution score to get?

Bah, forgot that.

Oh well, I still think barbarian wins significantly in the end.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 07:07 PM
There is the issue that whatever version of Heal exists for constructs will give more "full-attack-endurance" than Heal would for barbarians.

Oh, wait, there is no version of Heal for constructs. That means in-combat healing is prohibitively hard.

EDIT: Honestly, just from that, I'm really turned off by the GSA - unless, of course, there's a counterpoint. Iku's done a great job of proving that a lot of the GSA's cost is just opportunity cost, but having to rely on piddly Repair Serious Wounds at high levels scares me.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 07:20 PM
Improved Toughness, good defenses, repair spells, temporary hit points ... there are ways to make it less of a problem.

I find it odd that you advocate this class using the Repair spells to heal itself, when those spells are on par with the Cure X line and you won't have the spells/day to make it relevant. Nor can you do so effectively during combat, the time when you will most likely be reduced to 0 HP (it isn't that hard to just punch straight through DR 10/Adamantine, and losing your Con score puts you far behind). I've seen many an encounter end with the Barbarian that has 40 Con being reduced to the single digits, and even the negatives. Enemies do more damage than you give them credit for, and you don't have the spells/day to play Batman.


I'd prefer a miss chance to DR 10. Especially against a common material like Adamantine. DR 10/Mithral? Maybe, especially considering no one makes mithral weapons. But Adamantine is just a short step up from Magic.

sofawall
2009-10-22, 07:48 PM
But Adamantine is just a short step up from Magic.

Main advantage is very few natural weapons are adamantine.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 08:02 PM
I can't contribute much to this discussion (as I said before, my lack of melee knowledge is only rivaled by my lack of info on gishes), but it seems to me that this argument is on somewhat skewed premises. Comparing a GSA to a Fighter is a bit pointless, in my opinion; even if he comes out doing less damage, he still has a lot of magical potential that can redress the balance, and access to the wizard spells printed in every 3.5 supplement.

What we should be comparing it to are other gishes - Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, RDD, Pale Master, Abjurant Champion (well, maybe not that one) - and seeing how it stacks up.

sofawall
2009-10-22, 08:23 PM
What we should be comparing it to are other gishes - Eldritch Knight, Hexblade, RDD, Pale Master, Abjurant Champion (well, maybe not that one) - and seeing how it stacks up.

The difference here is we were trying to be fair. Other Gishes get 19/20, usually. 19th level casting means 9th level spells. Not even a contest once Time Stop, Shapechange etc. enter the field.

Iku Rex
2009-10-22, 08:37 PM
I dunno, just from a damage:DR+HP standpoint, HP is winning hugely against DR.Yes. But that was not the point. You were pooh-poohing the difference between DR 10 and DR 5. Your numbers confirm that it makes a significant difference.

***


There is the issue that whatever version of Heal exists for constructs will give more "full-attack-endurance" than Heal would for barbarians.

Oh, wait, there is no version of Heal for constructs. That means in-combat healing is prohibitively hard.Total repair, level 6 artificer infusion.

But there's no Sor/Wiz version so you don't get it without an artificer in the party.

EDIT: Honestly, just from that, I'm really turned off by the GSA - unless, of course, there's a counterpoint. Iku's done a great job of proving that a lot of the GSA's cost is just opportunity cost, but having to rely on piddly Repair Serious Wounds at high levels scares me.First they have to get though your temporary hit points.

Then, once you start taking real damage, an empowered repair serious damage fixes an average of 57 HPs at level 20. Not too bad considering your HP total. (Not perfect, I know.)

One trick I like is to use the vampire torc (MIC, 5000 gp, swift 2x day) with Emerald Razor or extended wraithstrike and max Power Attack, or just max Power Attack against a low AC opponent, to heal half the damage you dealt. (Used this with a maug [construct] character in a high level game.)


***


I find it odd that you advocate this class using the Repair spells to heal itself, when those spells are on par with the Cure X line and you won't have the spells/day to make it relevant.You have 750 gp wands of repair light damage for out of combat healing. Spells/day don't enter into it.

(See above for in-combat healing.)


I'd prefer a miss chance to DR 10. Fortunately, you can have both as a GSA.

Thurbane
2009-10-22, 08:40 PM
Do note that HP are not as vital when you have access to things like Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Blink, Stoneskin and the like...

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 08:56 PM
I've had a thought on one of the problems a loss of con presents. The pitiable fort save issue: isn't there a feat that lets you use str instead of con for fort saves? I don't have my books in front of me but I'm gonna go see if I can find it.

taltamir
2009-10-22, 09:10 PM
question, where is the latest reprint (and thus version) of the GSA? I remember reading it and seeing it had 0 caster progression. but now I am told it has 1/2 caster progression.

As for losing con score... you just have to start with a con of 1 or 3 to make that useful :)

sofawall
2009-10-22, 09:11 PM
Yes. But that was not the point. You were pooh-poohing the difference between DR 10 and DR 5. Your numbers confirm that it makes a significant difference.

***
Tarrasque: 37% reduced damage
Old Red Dragon: 38% reduced damage
Pit Fiend: 40% reduced damage
Titan: -13% reduced damage
(all values compared to Barbarian, and not initial damage value)

It seems as enemies start having fewer, more powerful attacks (i.e. not dragons) DR starts to lose heavily. A solar, for instance, nets a mere 21% damage reduction over the Barbarian. Never does the barbarian take double your damage, and the extra damage he does take is more than offset by having three times the HP.


Also, oops, Titans have an Adamantine weapon. Let me go and fix my calculations.

EDIT:

I've had a thought on one of the problems a loss of con presents. The pitiable fort save issue: isn't there a feat that lets you use str instead of con for fort saves? I don't have my books in front of me but I'm gonna go see if I can find it.

Construct. No need to make fort saves.


question, where is the latest reprint (and thus version) of the GSA? I remember reading it and seeing it had 0 caster progression. but now I am told it has 1/2 caster progression.

Complete Arcane (was it ever anywhere else?).

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 09:23 PM
Construct. No need to make fort saves.

Not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) quite. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/BalefulPolymorph.htm) And what protection it does get from this subtype, Warforged share.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-22, 09:27 PM
actually, a construct only rarely has to make a fort save. He's in more than a little trouble when he does. eg: disintegrate. Of course I may be missremebering the str to fort save feat. Missremebering in that it may not actually exist. If anyone else remembers such a feat could they point it out to me?

Edit: Ninja'd :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 09:29 PM
Do note that HP are not as vital when you have access to things like Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Blink, Stoneskin and the like...

Fireball says differently. Also, if all your paltry allotment of spells(due to half caster level) are occupied by buffs, your lack of ability to be healed normally is a bit of a problem.

Lower HP is a severe problem when you're immune to normal healing, and are a melee character. Add in death at 0 HP instead of -10, and it's pretty clear that the DR is the only thing keeping you alive at all. If you run into something with big single hits, or which ignores your DR, you suddenly have a very severe problem.



Sofawall, it's not immune to all fort saves. Things like Disintegrate can nuke it. You could use a low con modifier, have one of the various x to x feats to mitigate the fort save issue(or just take great fort), but the problem with dumping con is that you still need to survive to level 15.

Draz74
2009-10-22, 09:33 PM
Complete Arcane (was it ever anywhere else?).

Yes, it was also on the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a).

I don't recall ever hearing that the two versions were different, though.

Thurbane
2009-10-22, 09:37 PM
Fireball says differently.
How about the plethora of spells/items that protect from area effects and energy attacks?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 09:47 PM
You're adding GSA to a melee build. With, presumably, one level of something that can cast.

This means that at level 15, you've got a whopping 6 levels of your casting class. So, third level spells tops.

So, lets say you've got a 14 in your casting stat(since MAD is generally an issue here, but obviously, you'll want to be able to cast at least 4th level spells).

If your class is sorc, your best volume caster class, you have 6 cantrips, 6 level 1 spells, 5 level 2 spells, and 3 level 3 spells. Unforrtunately, you only actually know two level 2 spells, and one level 3 spell. This extremely limits your buffing.

If you took another class, then you have less spell volume. Bonus spells are unlikely to be terribly helpful, due to MAD.

All those lovely spells out there do nothing if you can't cast them.

jiriku
2009-10-22, 09:52 PM
Maybe... 28 PB. 16/16/10/10/10/10. Net stats after racial, 20/20/8/8/8/8. Reasonable, I would think. That nets us triple the HP of a GSA, without optimizing con (putting level-up points into it, buying the inherent bonuses, picking a con race over a str one).

Let's be fair on all sides. 20 20 8 8 8 8 is a WILDLY MIN/MAXED set of stats. I would most certainly NOT call that a fair comparison. It might play at some tables, but there are many many D&D groups in which bringing those stats to the table would bring boos and snorts of derisive laughter.

Pardon, sofa, if that sounds critical, I'm not trying to attack you. But really, I've played D&D for 16 years and the only people I've seen who attempted to play characters with those stats were hardcore munchkins of the very worst kind. Let's have some fair play here!

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 09:53 PM
So, shuffle the points around a bit, and he'll have only two, two and a half times as much HP?

I don't think it changes the point.

jiriku
2009-10-22, 09:56 PM
You're adding GSA to a melee build. With, presumably, one level of something that can cast.

This means that at level 15, you've got a whopping 6 levels of your casting class. So, third level spells tops.

So, lets say you've got a 14 in your casting stat(since MAD is generally an issue here, but obviously, you'll want to be able to cast at least 4th level spells).

If your class is sorc, your best volume caster class, you have 6 cantrips, 6 level 1 spells, 5 level 2 spells, and 3 level 3 spells. Unforrtunately, you only actually know two level 2 spells, and one level 3 spell. This extremely limits your buffing.

If you took another class, then you have less spell volume. Bonus spells are unlikely to be terribly helpful, due to MAD.

All those lovely spells out there do nothing if you can't cast them.

Sinfire Titan proposed a Suel Arcanamach/GSA build. I'm building it right now to see if it's practical. By level 20, this would give you 5th level spells cast at CL 14, and your spells would resist dispelling as if CL 20.

Edit: Stuff Wot I Made
Crusader 5/Hexblade 1/Suel Arcanamach 4/Green Star Adept 10
Free extend on all abjurations
Crusader 5/Hexblade 1/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Green Star Adept 9
Free quicken on all abjurations L2 or lower.

Base Attack +16
IL 12, CL 14, 5th level spells
Init +11 w/nerveskitter
Race: Human (to meet skill and feat requirements for PrC)
Hit Points 5d12+1d10+14d8+40 = 147
or 5d12+5d10+10d8+80 (assumes +4 Con item) = 190

Feats:
Education (to meet skill requirements)
Combat Casting (PrC requirement)
Improved Toughness
5 feats of your choice

Ability scores (32 pb):
Str 15 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16
+3 Str, +1 Dex levels

Looking at this, I think offensively the GSA matches up well against any reasonable T4/T5 opponent, and could still pull his own weight against T3 classes, although a performance difference would be noticeable if the encounters didn't feature attacks that allowed the GSA to showcase its immunities.

The real Achilles heel, though, is the loss of the Con score, but this is mitigated by the damage reduction and many immunities the character has.

Yes, a barbarian can take more hits and dish out more damage. That's what barbarians do. But the GSA will have better DR and an AC ten points higher, and the barbarian has fewer options, since he lacks the GSA's maneuvers and spells. The GSA also exploits the action economy better with his boosts, stances, and swift- or immediate-action spells.

Navigator
2009-10-23, 04:05 AM
As long as we're talking about optimization, this class offers a really high caster level when combined with Abjurant Champion.

Let's just say (Full Caster) 1/(Melee) 4/GSA 10/Abjurant Champion 5. Your base caster level is 11. Abjurant Champion bumps that to 16 from BAB (or 17 if you use fractional BAB), get your +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, then apply your +5 bonus from Improved Caster Level as per GSA for CL 24. Sure, you'll have only 6th level spells with wizard casting, but that nets you a lot of utility, and your buffs can stick through greater dispel magic pretty well. Plus, you get your 4th iterative.

Also, you can automatically assume that you get +3 to Int/Wis/Cha since you can be arbitrarily old. You could have 16 Str, 16 Dex, 13 (Casting Stat), 8s everywhere else with a 25 point buy and dump everything else into strength.

Sure, other class combinations do it better, but it's definitely workable. Besides, aren't you tired of playing batman wizards?

EDIT: As far Suel Arcanamachs go, I never saw the benefit of taking that instead doing a full caster gish. You always end up with better casting, and the BAB change is negligible. Am I missing something?

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-23, 05:25 AM
EDIT: As far Suel Arcanamachs go, I never saw the benefit of taking that instead doing a full caster gish. You always end up with better casting, and the BAB change is negligible. Am I missing something?

Full caster gish requires not screwing things up, that's a first. A full caster gish must decide beforehand what to deal with: usually, the holy grail is 16 BAB and 9th level spells. You can decide to nerf yourself out of 9th level spells if you consider that what you acquire is much better than what you sacrifice (debatable most of the time, but it can happen), but it's dangerous to nerf yourself out of 16 BAB since that means less attacks on a full attack, and unless you care little for attacks that's devastating.

Suel Arcanamachs have the debatable advantage of a solid spell list comprised of strong gish-inclined spells, as well as the ability to ignore spell failure with armor and Extended Spellstrength. That last one means any spell you cast from the class is automatically extended, which is particularly good when you have spells that last for hours. The entry requirements are punishing, though; Combat Casting which only works if you go for Abjurant Champion later on, Iron Will which is only moderately useful given that you're looking for better feats, and a forgotten language that's limited to Greyhawk nearly all the time, and even then only to a single place. However, it has a flexibility in spellcasting that's less than debatable; few classes have a mutable, growing list such as this (Spellthief is another example, Sublime Chord is one of the meta examples along with Ur-Priest and Apostle of Peace). This means use of scrolls, wands and perhaps even staffs with such power; consider you can get other spells via runestaves, and you're all set.

IMO, though, I find Nar Demonbinder (for evil-inclined gishes) or Knight of the Weave (for good-inclined gishes) a stronger choice than Arcanamachs, especially if going the Sublime Chord way. Both have attack spells, considerably interesting defensive spell choices, and interesting class abilities (one quadruples some of the spells you have, another allows you to use your spell slots for improved metamagic should you decide to get it)

On topic: it's really hard to determine the real advantages of GSA over other gish classes (Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, even Spellsword), considering how gimped it is on attributes alone. 3/4 BAB does not a gish make, unless you make a dip (since that means you can safely dip in up to three levels before getting shafted off BAB again); 5/10 levels of spellcasting strike badly on the other side (you get 2 spell levels more often than not; 3 spell levels tops), d8 HP again strikes bad (since you're getting shafted off two of the gish standards, shafting a third just worsens it), and you only get one good save which is not Fort (granted, you get a class ability that pretty much serves as a Fort booster, and you get Will which is good since you'll be suffering from mind-affecting spells and effects after all). It doesn't even justifies skill-monkeyness, because of the 2+Int skill points per level.

The rest is debatable. Adding a solid Spell Resistance to the class and at least a method to accept friendly spells might have strengthened it; the character is turning slowly into a construct, it makes sense that it gains some resistance to hostile spells. DR loses potency faster than it should, even if it's one of the reasonable ones. Lack of resistances (though Resist Energy works well to solve that) also gimp the class a little. And, it doesn't do much for AC other than a delayed acquisition of natural armor, which to the benefit of the GSA stacks with Barkskin or Amulets (or anything that suggests enhancement bonus to NA); this gets hit considering the loss of 3 Dex points, which can only be buffered with an odd Dex score. The only good choice would be fortification, but sadly it tops at 75% (not even 100%, which would have made it more than worthwhile)

GSA suffers from writers who were too conservative to truly measure the power of slowly turning a gishy character into a construct. You can get a better construct gish with a Warforged Duskblade nerfing 6 of its levels to enter into Warforged Juggernaut. Or, getting Renegade Mastermaker; requires only two Craft X feats which are far more productive and skill points in a Craft skill which nearly every single class has as a class skill, 8/10 spellcasting, same 3/4 BAB, two good saves, 4+Int skill points, a free Battlefist which you can self-upgrade, a free Warforged bonus feat (get Adamantine Body, since the feat specifically says you can get 1st level feats), and then jump the last few levels into WJ. The only differences are 1/5th of the DR, a d6 instead of a d8, and being unable to be affected by healing spells (and a fixation with Charging and Bull-Rushing...) Depending on how you enter, you can get sufficient BAB and spell levels to eclipse the GSA on its own game.

The best way to use GSA would imply doing the right amount of dipping. 4 levels, for some reason, seems to be strongly appropriate: +3 to BAB, +4 to Will, DR 4/adamantine (which you can enhance with other feats), light fortification, +2 to Strength and +2 NA, darkvision and low-light vision (unless you have them), 2 spell levels and +4 to CL. Any more and you're losing too much; less, and you lose pretty strong benefits. Combine with Renegade Mastermaker and/or any other gish build, and you can do a pretty solid gish without sacrificing too much.

Finally, and to end this: it's a veritable shame that you can't combine GSA with Artificer. Adding those 4 levels to Artificer and then RM all 10 levels (or heck, even all 10 GSA levels) would have made a much more solid class. You get all artificer infusions, and the GSA or RM capstones means you can turn into even more of a construct that you might be.

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 07:02 AM
A green-skinned semi-construct isn't necessarily going to be the weirdest-looking character in a typical D&D party. Wasn't it earlier in this thread someone was suggesting a water orc barbarian as an alternative to a GSA?

The fact that there may be other weird-looking people in the party doesn't change the fact that the GSA will still be pretty weird. You'll just have 2 people causing the "Drizzt entering a major city effect" rather than one.


The concerns about DM support are valid, but all that can be resolved by, you know, talking to your DM while you're building the character and only choosing a GSA build if the DM supports the idea.

That's quite true. Just be prepared for a lot of DMs to say "no, I don't want to deal with it, and I don't think the rest of the players do either."

As for what someone said about it being an opportunity for character development, yes, it is, but pretty much anything is an opportunity for character development. That doesn't really alleviate the problems of A) looking weird and B) needing to take major chunks of playtime to invest in getting the starmetal. The other players may not appreciate that much character development for one person. There's ways around that, including handwavery, but in many campaigns it can be a problem.

Optimystik
2009-10-23, 10:08 AM
Yes, it was also on the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a).

I don't recall ever hearing that the two versions were different, though.

It irritates me that they only preview the crap and expect people to get the book based solely on that. Honestly, who bought Complete Divine to play an Entropomancer? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a)


That's quite true. Just be prepared for a lot of DMs to say "no, I don't want to deal with it, and I don't think the rest of the players do either."

I don't think the DM part will be that big an issue. Even the ones that shy away from Starmetal can be won over by the adaptation method, and you can become a Jade Adept or Ruby Adept or similar (you don't even have to be the Jolly Green Construct that way.) Most DMs I know would jump at the thought of you blowing your WBL on such a middle-of-the-road class; much easier to deal with than wanting to buy nightsticks or candles of invocation, after all :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 10:40 AM
As long as we're talking about optimization, this class offers a really high caster level when combined with Abjurant Champion.

Let's just say (Full Caster) 1/(Melee) 4/GSA 10/Abjurant Champion 5. Your base caster level is 11. Abjurant Champion bumps that to 16 from BAB (or 17 if you use fractional BAB), get your +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, then apply your +5 bonus from Improved Caster Level as per GSA for CL 24. Sure, you'll have only 6th level spells with wizard casting, but that nets you a lot of utility, and your buffs can stick through greater dispel magic pretty well. Plus, you get your 4th iterative.
Won't work out. You''ll end up with CL 20.
GSA is just added directly to your caster level, it's not a miscellaneous bonus.
1 (base) + 10 (GSA) + 5 (AbjC) = 16 + 4 (practiced) = 20


Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 12:13 PM
I don't think the DM part will be that big an issue. Even the ones that shy away from Starmetal can be won over by the adaptation method, and you can become a Jade Adept or Ruby Adept or similar (you don't even have to be the Jolly Green Construct that way.) Most DMs I know would jump at the thought of you blowing your WBL on such a middle-of-the-road class; much easier to deal with than wanting to buy nightsticks or candles of invocation, after all :smalltongue:

You can say "no" to those items just as easily as to GSA.

Optimystik
2009-10-23, 12:49 PM
You can say "no" to those items just as easily as to GSA.

But you can say "yes" to rubies far more easily than you can to Starmetal. Not many campaigns have meteorites, but a large number have gems.

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 12:51 PM
But you can say "yes" to rubies far more easily than you can to Starmetal. Not many campaigns have meteorites, but a large number have gems.I think he was referring to nightsticks/CoIs.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 01:11 PM
Won't work out. You''ll end up with CL 20.
GSA is just added directly to your caster level, it's not a miscellaneous bonus.
1 (base) + 10 (GSA) + 5 (AbjC) = 16 + 4 (practiced) = 20

Very debated. Many are of the opinion:

1(base)+5(GSA)+10(Improved Caster Level)+5 (AbjC)=21, and saves a feat.

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 01:16 PM
Very debated. Many are of the opinion:

1(base)+5(GSA)+10(Poorly worded GSA ability)+5 (AbjC)=21, and saves a feat....why?

Text trumps table.

No sign of caster level increase.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: At every even-numbered level, a Green Star adept gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Caster level increase

Improved Caster Level (Ex): A Green Star adept adds his class level to his caster level in another arcane spellcasting class to determine his effective spellcaster level. If the character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Green Star adept, the player must decide to which class to add each adept level for this purpose. For example, a 5th-level wizard/4th-level Green Star adept's caster level would be 9th, due to this ability, but he would only have access to 4th-level spells (5th-level wizard plus two arcane spellcasting class levels from being a 4th-level Green Star adept).

sofawall
2009-10-23, 02:09 PM
Archmage:
Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day. Eldritch Knight:
Spells per Day

From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day. Arcane Trickster:
Spells per Day

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. Loremaster:
Spells per Day/Spells Known

When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. Mystic Theurge:
Spells per Day

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day. Thaumaturgist:
Spells per Day

When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a thaumaturgist, he must decide to which class he adds each level of thaumaturgist for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Archmage: Spells known and spells per day, but not caster level.
Eldritch Knight: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Arcane Trickster: Spells per day and Caster level, but not spells known.
Loremaster: Spells per day, spells known and caster level.
Mystic Theurge: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Thaumaturgist: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.


What have I discovered? Archmage sucks, Loremaster is the best Core spellcasting PrC, and Sorcerers, if they prestige out at 6th, never get to cast anything higher than 3rd level spells unless they take the aforementioned Loremaster (or maybe Archmage, but it grants no CL unless you take the High Arcana).

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 02:13 PM
But you can say "yes" to rubies far more easily than you can to Starmetal. Not many campaigns have meteorites, but a large number have gems.

You could do that, yes, and red-skinned freak might even be somewhat easier for the townsfolks than greenskinned freak.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 02:15 PM
Archmage:Eldritch Knight:Arcane Trickster:[spoiler]Loremaster:Mystic Theurge:Thaumaturgist:

Archmage: Spells known and spells per day, but not caster level.
Eldritch Knight: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Arcane Trickster: Spells per day and Caster level, but not spells known.
Loremaster: Spells per day, spells known and caster level.
Mystic Theurge: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Thaumaturgist: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.


What have I discovered? Archmage sucks, Loremaster is the best Core spellcasting PrC, and Sorcerers, if they prestige out at 6th, never get to cast anything higher than 3rd level spells unless they take the aforementioned Loremaster (or maybe Archmage, but it grants no CL unless you take the High Arcana).

Spells known yes, but that only affectsd Sorc. Wizards get 2 by going up a spell per day level.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 02:52 PM
Spells known yes, but that only affectsd Sorc. Wizards get 2 by going up a spell per day level.

They go up for Wizard level, not "spell per day" levels, whatever those are. Technically, free spellbook spells fall under the 'no other benefits' clause, if we're being RAWtarded about those entries.

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 03:09 PM
In an ideal world we'd have some sort of consensus. Ironically misinterpreting GSA isn't RAWtardation but a combination of RAWtardation and RAItardation by trying to apply RAW and RAI as you want them to be, rather than trying to do one or the other.

RAW GSA works out fine. +10 CL and 1/2 spell known/day progression
RAI GSA clearly works out fine. +10CL and 1/2 spell known/day progression

Applying RAI from other classes and using the hypothesis that all class implementations of spells known/per day progression should also increment caster level, unless otherwise stated, and then applying it to GSA is what leads to wonky interpretations.

With a reasonable interpretation, it is clear, both by RAW and by RAI, what GSA is supposed to be doing, only by gratuitous abuse and "interpretations" of the rules do we come up with weird things like a +15 caster level progression out of 10 level class.

I'd rather admit that some other PrCs are poorly edited and work out RAI on a case by case basis than try to justify something like GSA getting 15 levels or caster progression when that's clearly not the intent, nor does it make sense (someone was using RAMS a while ago?).

sofawall
2009-10-23, 03:39 PM
(someone was using RAMS a while ago?).

Yes, actually, I was.

And man, WotC should have had a universal entry for spellcasting advancement. That way we would know whether Archmages are supposed to get Caster Level, or if they're meant to sacrifice it unless they want to waste a High Arcana.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 04:03 PM
Archmage:Eldritch Knight:Arcane Trickster:[spoiler]Loremaster:Mystic Theurge:Thaumaturgist:

Archmage: Spells known and spells per day, but not caster level.
Eldritch Knight: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Arcane Trickster: Spells per day and Caster level, but not spells known.
Loremaster: Spells per day, spells known and caster level.
Mystic Theurge: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.
Thaumaturgist: Spells per day and caster level, but not spells known.


What have I discovered? Archmage sucks, Loremaster is the best Core spellcasting PrC, and Sorcerers, if they prestige out at 6th, never get to cast anything higher than 3rd level spells unless they take the aforementioned Loremaster (or maybe Archmage, but it grants no CL unless you take the High Arcana).

You discovered WOTC sucks at writing... They also resort to "etc" it when they could have easily listed every possible feature (eg, they don't mention familiar, why?)
WOTC writes things to be as vague as possible... this is great for constitution writing but terrible for game writing.

Anyways, generally speaking DMs count all of those as "levels"


They go up for Wizard level, not "spell per day" levels, whatever those are. Technically, free spellbook spells fall under the 'no other benefits' clause, if we're being RAWtarded about those entries.

Which is worth some GP... but sacrificing some GP for permanently stronger character is a good investment.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 05:18 PM
(eg, they don't mention familiar, why?)


Because to my knowledge the only PrC that advances Familiar is Arcane Heirophant. Most PrCs don't advance familiar.


You discovered WOTC sucks at writing... They also resort to "etc" it when they could have easily listed every possible feature

Ctrl+F says the only mention of etc in this page is yours. Doesn't seem to be used in any descriptions.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:20 PM
Because to my knowledge the only PrC that advances Familiar is Arcane Heirophant. Most PrCs don't advance familiar.

You misunderstand... none specifically SAY if they do or do not. They simply imply. Would it have killed them to outright say it?
Although, AFAIK the ONLY thing a wizard gives up for a PrC is the familiar.

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 05:21 PM
You misunderstand... none specifically SAY if they do or do not. They simply imply. Would it have killed them to outright say it?
Although, AFAIK the ONLY thing a wizard gives up for a PrC is the familiar.Also bonus feats. The only thing the sorcerer gives up for PrCs is the familiar. Best thing to do if you want a familiar is to trade it away for a bonus feat and then use that feat on obtain familiar.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 05:26 PM
You misunderstand... none specifically SAY if they do or do not. They simply imply. Would it have killed them to outright say it?
Although, AFAIK the ONLY thing a wizard gives up for a PrC is the familiar.

They do say. Right in the part that says:
He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Same reason that:
Also bonus feats. The only thing the sorcerer gives up for PrCs is the familiar. Best thing to do if you want a familiar is to trade it away for a bonus feat and then use that feat on obtain familiar.
Is not strictly true. Wizards give up free spells, and sorcerers (irritatingly) often give up Spells Known, if going by the prestige class entry.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:28 PM
He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.
Should say

He does not, however, gain familiar progression, spells known, and feats that class would have gained
A few more letters, infinitely more clear.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 05:29 PM
Should say

A few more letters, infinitely more clear.

So Dread Necromancers get their stuff?

Bards get bardic music?

EDIT: Very clear, but also very very wrong.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 08:07 PM
So Dread Necromancers get their stuff?

Bards get bardic music?

EDIT: Very clear, but also very very wrong.

add note of bardic music and dread necromancer ability. problem solved. Or make a note of "other abilities".

sofawall
2009-10-23, 09:31 PM
add note of bardic music and dread necromancer ability. problem solved. Or make a note of "other abilities".

And wasn't this exactly the problem you were trying to avoid with using more specific terms?

re: Adding a specific clause for each class: Archmages would be able to use Dread Necro stuff, clearly, since they wouldn't have an exception against it, Dread Necro coming quite a time afterwards and all.

Basically, saying every single thing a prestige does not advance takes up too much space, is not forwards compatible, and is more prone to error than just listing what it does get.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 09:41 PM
And wasn't this exactly the problem you were trying to avoid with using more specific terms?

re: Adding a specific clause for each class: Archmages would be able to use Dread Necro stuff, clearly, since they wouldn't have an exception against it, Dread Necro coming quite a time afterwards and all.

Basically, saying every single thing a prestige does not advance takes up too much space, is not forwards compatible, and is more prone to error than just listing what it does get.

either option is doable. It would not kill them to be a little more clear, that is all.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 09:45 PM
either option is doable.
Wrong. Listing everything they do not grant is not doable.

I challenge you to list every single thing a spellcasting prestige class does not advance.


It would not kill them to be a little more clear

I agree, especially considering that I implied the same thing above (what with getting/not getting caster level/spells known).

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 09:47 PM
The biggest problem IMO is lack of good editing and the lack of a standard for progression increases. Either of them would make things clearer, but because we don't have either one of them, we get things like this.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 09:49 PM
you are right, it is far more feasible to list everything it does get...

sofawall
2009-10-23, 10:07 PM
you are right, it is far more feasible to list everything it does get...

3 things to list is a bit easier than 1-many for every spellcasting class.