[3.5] Pokemon

[Sila Prirode]

My friends and I were thinking of starting a Pokemon themed campaign. In short, all of the PCs are Pokemon trainers, and they are going through Johto League.

Basis is that the PCs are homebrewed class called Trainer, which lets them control and use Pokemon. When they gain levels in that class they can have more pokemons at hand, specialize in certain aspect (catching pokemons, or leveling them, etc.), and in certain types (gaining bonuses in eg. Fire pokemons).
Pokemon also gain levels, HD, saves and similar depends on subtype (they are all Magical Beasts with some subtype). With levels they gain Power progression similar to Tome of Battle classes. Example: Let's say that Pikachu gains level 3. That means that now he gains 1 Power of level 2, which he can chose from Lightning or Universal discipline. On level 4 he would gain additional Power of second level, and one Power of first level, from same disciplines.
That is for Powers, they also have defensive abilities, which they gain in the same manner as Powers, but on even numbered levels.

That is the basis of the setting, if you want to hear more just ask, we have covered many things, which I'd like to hear your opinion on, but I don't want to scare you with a Big Wall of Text :smallbiggrin:

What I'm asking is, are there any official stuff made already on this, or are they any online guides? We already have this (http://www.scshop.com/~ritaxis/), but it's quite not the style, also, I think we made some things better them him :smallsmile:
Also, do you have any experience on your own with Pokemon 3.5 games? Or any advice?

[Mercenary Pen]

You mention Johto, which era of play are you looking at, 251 species a la Gold, Silver and Crystal, or 493 species a la Heart Gold and Soul Silver?

[Vadin]

Addtionally, 'pokemon' is both singular and plural. Also, have you thought of having the players advance their pokemon like characters instead of advancing themselves? I mean, think about it- pokemon, not trainers, get stronger. Pokemon use special abilities, pokemon are the ones who compete in 1 on 1 (or 2 on 2) combat, and pokemon are where the real focus is. Why, exactly, do you need to worry about the trainers?

[Sila Prirode]

Actually, none and all of that :D
For start, we will stat out base 150 Pokemons, and then the rest will come on the way. Like, if one of the PCs wants some specific Pokemon, I stat him out, and then arrange for him to catch it (I would most probably be the DM).
Also, if I want some of the NPC "villains" to have some exotic Pokemon, I can just stat out some new ones.
Eventually, we plan to stat all of them, so they can be used.

On the XP, actually, only Pokemon get experience for fights. Basiclly, if the Pokemon was involved in a fight, he gets XP if he wins.
Trainer only get XP for defeating other trainers, or some other challenges (winning a tournament, etc.) It's more of a plot xp, or a quest xp.
And it is necessary to give out, because he can control stronger Pokemon as he advances in level (level 10 ability for example would give him an option of controling legendary Pokemon). Also he would gain those specializations mentioned in the first post by leveling.

[Golden-Esque]

Sounds workable to me. Here are some questions / suggestions.

#1 - What Generation are you going up to? You specified "Johoto", but are you using the full 400ish Pokemon list, or stopping at Gold and Silver's 251?

#2 - Are you keeping the game's spirit of 4 Moves known?

#3 - Are you modeling attacks based solely after the game's, or are you just making generic ones?

#4 - Is "Trainer" going to be your only class? You could easily make several different Trainer Types (like in the game) that grant bonuses to the Trainer. For example, perhaps a Medic Trainer would gain a bonus to healing Pokemon, while a Battler would be able to deal slightly more damage, or a Trickster teaches skills (like dodging and overall Stats) more easily. That way, instead of everyone being "generic trainer", you still have a sense of role in the ground among trainers.

[Sila Prirode]

#1 - What Generation are you going up to? You specified "Johoto", but are you using the full 400ish Pokemon list, or stopping at Gold and Silver's 251?

Check my previous answer for that :smallsmile:


#2 - Are you keeping the game's spirit of 4 Moves known?

Actually, no. It would be to limiting.
What we have instead, is Recharging for Powers. Let's say Pikachu uses his Lightning Power. Now he rolls d4+1 one. That is the number of rounds he must wait before he can use it again. All Powers work that way, with various Recharge times.
That even makes room for Metapower feats on Pokemon, which will increase Recharge time. Eg. Pikachu Empowers his Lightning, and then can't use it for d4+1 minutes, instead of rounds.


#3 - Are you modeling attacks based solely after the game's, or are you just making generic ones?

Both. We will try to have 2 or 3 options on all levels of all the Disciplines, with General Discipline having things like Tackle, or Slam.


#4 - Is "Trainer" going to be your only class? You could easily make several different Trainer Types (like in the game) that grant bonuses to the Trainer. For example, perhaps a Medic Trainer would gain a bonus to healing Pokemon, while a Battler would be able to deal slightly more damage, or a Trickster teaches skills (like dodging and overall Stats) more easily. That way, instead of everyone being "generic trainer", you still have a sense of role in the ground among trainers.

That is precisely the reason Trainers get XP too. On level 3 they pick their first specialization (Hunter, Breeder, Herder, Medic,etc.), on level 6 they pick their favorite subtype (Fire, Plant, Water...). They will have more of those specializations, on levels 9 and 12, but we haven't worked that out yet.

[Golden-Esque]

I'm reading through your site now, and here's some opinions.

First, I don't like this:


A Pokémaster can have a number of Pokémon in Pokéballs equal to her Charisma Modifier be "Controlled."

You're essentially saying you need a strong personality to control a Pokemon. I think you'd be better off if you changed it so that regardless of your trainer level, you can carry six Pokemon carried at any time (like in the game) and have Handle Pokemon be a class skill for your campaign. Yeah, I know it makes things weird if you try to translate this class to a non-Pokemon setting, but you need to make the classes work for your campaign before you worry about that :). Heck, if you switch it to a check, you could have your Trainers be required to make a check every round in order to have your Pokemon be Player-Controlled. In that regards, Badges could be Magical Items that increase your skill with Handle Pokemon, again like the games.

Going back to reading now . . .

[Golden-Esque]

A Pokémaster can, at any time, release their Pokémon into the wild. This is a process that takes about 10 minutes during which the Pokémaster says her good-byes to the Pokémon. The Pokémon is then free to do whatever it wishes, its current intelligence, alignment, and abilities do not inherently change from this release. The Pokémon's Pokéball is broken in the process, and is no longer attuned to that Pokémon. Pokémon who were treated especially well or poorly by their Pokémaster will not forget that treatment and may, at the DM's discretion, act accordingly either immediately or at some time in the future.

Just to nitpick, I think it's stated the first game that Pokemon are almost always Neutral from the get-go; their alignment *might* slowly change to match their trainer's if they're treated well.

[Sila Prirode]

I'm reading through your site now, and here's some opinions.

Actually, that is not my site, it just tingled my inspiration to work on this :smallbiggrin:



You're essentially saying you need a strong personality to control a Pokemon. I think you'd be better off if you changed it so that regardless of your trainer level, you can carry six Pokemon carried at any time (like in the game) and have Handle Pokemon be a class skill for your campaign.


Well, what my friend thought about it, was to change that to your class level. So at first level you can only control 2 Pokemon, but that changes when you get to level 4, when you can have 4 Pokemon on you all the time. Only Herder would be able to carry 6 of them.
Mind you, that might seem few, but this is for a party game, not "single player", you are travelling with 3-5 more Pokemon Trainers, so if all of you had 6 Pokemon that would amount to a quite lot of mess.

And on the aligment, well I always imagined Goldy to be Good-ish, so if she were used by an Evil Trainer she would shift slowly. But it's mainly fluff.

[Golden-Esque]

A Pokémaster can, at any time, release their Pokémon into the wild. This is a process that takes about 10 minutes during which the Pokémaster says her good-byes to the Pokémon. The Pokémon is then free to do whatever it wishes, its current intelligence, alignment, and abilities do not inherently change from this release. The Pokémon's Pokéball is broken in the process, and is no longer attuned to that Pokémon. Pokémon who were treated especially well or poorly by their Pokémaster will not forget that treatment and may, at the DM's discretion, act accordingly either immediately or at some time in the future.

Just to nitpick, I think it's stated the first game that Pokemon are almost always Neutral from the get-go; their alignment *might* slowly change to match their trainer's if they're treated well.


Sometimes, Pokémon die, this causes a great loss to the Pokémaster, both emotionally and spiritually. A Pokémaster whose controlled Pokémon dies immediately loses 200 XP times the CR of the Pokémon (zero XP for Pokémon below CR 1). A Pokémaster can make a Will save (DC 15) to halve the XP loss. XP lost in this way are recovered if the Pokémon is raised from the dead by any means (usually Raise Dead or Resurrection). The XP is recovered if the Pokémon is Reincarnated, but the new body breaks the Pokémaster to Pokémon link and the Pokémon is no longer controlled, and may no longer be a Pokémon (depending on its new type).

For some reason, I find a Pokemone reincarnating into a humanoid rather amusing; though if you're going for straight-out Pokemon, I don't know how "magical" you're going to actually want your game to be.

I'm not sure if I understand your "Evolve Pokemon" Entry, since it takes about evolving DnD Monsters into other DnD Monsters. I am assuming it is a metaphor.

For the Inspire Pokemon; I think it would work better if you changed it to be like the Bardic Music ability, Inspire Courage. Everyone likes +1 to AC, Attack Rolls, and Damage Rolls!

Instead of Knowledge {Arcana}, I'd use either Knowledge {Nature} or Knowledge {Pokemon} to identify Pokemon.

For Pokeballs, I think your best bet is to make a Capture Pokemon Skill or something, and instead have the DC to Catch a Pokemon be equal to the Pokemon's Challenge Rating or something.

Also, for crafting Pokeballs, if you use my idead, you should have a set cost to make a Pokeball, and then just add Enhancement Bonuses to it. You could also add the cool special balls using this method (like Friend Ball or Love Ball).

[Golden-Esque]

Actually, that is not my site, it just tingled my inspiration to work on this :smallbiggrin:



Well, what my friend thought about it, was to change that to your class level. So at first level you can only control 2 Pokemon, but that changes when you get to level 4, when you can have 4 Pokemon on you all the time. Only Herder would be able to carry 6 of them.

Mind you, that might seem few, but this is for a party game, not "single player", you are traveling with 3-5 more Pokemon Trainers, so if all of you had 6 Pokemon that would amount to a quite lot of mess.

I can see the logic in this, but sadly, it's one of those things that makes Pokemon a difficult thing to play 3.5 as : /. You're going to loose a LOT of the feel of the Pokemon World if you're having multiple players fight in a single battle, I'm afraid

[Sila Prirode]

Well, it won't be a single battle, it will be more like:
While you were walking through the tall grass one of the player notices something is crawling up on his leg, he shakes it off and turns his eyes to ground. There you see 6, no, 7, no wait it's almost a dozen of Ratata trying to climb up to your backpack to get food!
Then the encounter starts, with PCs working together with their Pokemon to fend of hungry Ratata.

Also, only thing that we are going to use from the stuff you mentioned from that site is Knowledge Pokemon (Pokedex gives out bonus on those).
For catching them, it would work similar to Sneak Attack, meaning you get d6 per two levels (starting at first), with Pokeball bonus on top of that (and class bonuses from Hunter specialization). Better the Pokeball better the bonus. Bonus is a number of additional d6 on roll.
For example you are a third level Trainer, Hunter specialization, with basic Pokeball. You use your Catch ability. Then you roll 2d6 (from Trainer) + d6 (from Pokeball) + d6 (from Hunter). If your roll is equal or greater to the Pokemon's current hp, you have caught him in your Pokeball.

[jokey665]

I can see the logic in this, but sadly, it's one of those things that makes Pokemon a difficult thing to play 3.5 as : /. You're going to loose a LOT of the feel of the Pokemon World if you're having multiple players fight in a single battle, I'm afraid

While this is true, it's not that hard to have the NPC trainers say "I challenge so-and-so-party-member to a duel!" Same goes for gym leaders even more so.

[Sila Prirode]

Gym leaders are actually done in a bit of different way.
Basically, there is monthly tournament in all of the gyms, where the winner of the tournament gets the "prize" of going against gym leader.
So basically, PCs, and a bunch of NPCs enter the tournament, and the winner gets to go for the badge.

And for NPC trainers, well, who says they travel one by one? :smallamused:

[jokey665]

Gym leaders are actually done in a bit of different way.
Basically, there is monthly tournament in all of the gyms, where the winner of the tournament gets the "prize" of going against gym leader.
So basically, PCs, and a bunch of NPCs enter the tournament, and the winner gets to go for the badge.

I like this way of doing it a lot, actually. It's much more sensible than the games' way of every random trainer can fight a gym leader whenever he wants.

[Sila Prirode]

It also opens up a lot of room for seriuos games. I mean, now everyone travels in actually party, you have whole guilds of Trainers you can work with. Imagine 50 or so Trainers joined together in the Hunters guild, whose job is to hunt wild Pokemon, and trade them to other Trainers. They all travel in groups.
Also, competition, think Team Rocket from Pokemon, but not failing all the time. Along the lines of Oots and Linear Guild :smallsmile:

[Real Sorceror]

Its not official by any means, but I've been working extensively on a Pokemon d20 conversion. http://pokemondtwenty.wikidot.com/

Have a look and tell me what you think. I had some pretty similar ideas, though I've dropped most of the traditional D&D monster types and just used the Pokemon types as is (ex Squirtle is just a Water Pokemon, not a Magical Beast). This makes things easier when determining Super-Effective attacks and whatnot.

Right now I need ideas for the classes. I'm basing them loosely on the rules for d20 Modern, so each base class gets a Talent every other level. The Classes so far are Trainer, Breeder, Warrior, and Deviant (think Team Rocket/Magma, etc).

I'm still in the process of converting all of the moves into something similar to a martial maneuver/spell list.

As an example, heres Bulbasaur:

http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/thumb/2/21/001Bulbasaur.png/130px-001Bulbasaur.png

Bulbasaur (CR 1)
TN Small Grass Pokemon
Initiative: -1, Senses: Low-Light Vision
----------------------------------
AC: 14 (-1 Dex, +5 natural armor)
HP: 1d8 +3 (11)
Fort +2 Ref -1 Will +3
Ability: Overgrow
----------------------------------
Speed: 30 ft
Attack Bonus: +0 melee, -1 ranged
Techniques Known: 2, Power Points: 3
0 - Tackle - melee attack, deal 1d6 Normal damage
1st - Absorb - ranged touch attack, deal 1d4+1 Grass damage, recover hp equal to damage dealt
----------------------------------
Advancement: 5-12 (Small)
Evolution: Ivysaur 8+
Skills: Perception +5
Feats: Toughness
Str 10 (+0), Con 10 (+0), Dex 9 (-1), Int 6 (-2), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1)

[Sila Prirode]

I had some pretty similar ideas, though I've dropped most of the traditional D&D monster types and just used the Pokemon types as is (ex Squirtle is just a Water Pokemon, not a Magical Beast). This makes things easier when determining Super-Effective attacks and whatnot.


Well this will be Poke- only setting, so type doesn't play any role, only subtype matters (which is actually the same as you did it).



I'm still in the process of converting all of the moves into something similar to a martial maneuver/spell list.

Yes, that was our general idea too. We gave them Powers know as in martial classes (Warblade is the most likely candidate, might just need to tweak the numbers a bit).
And they don't need the prepare them at all, just watch for Recharge time.
Defensive abilities fall in whole other category, and they gain them on even numbered levels, and are mostly passive, while Powers are on odd numbered levels, and are mostly standard action.

We also had a nice idea for Pokemon feats, which can expand their capabilities, like Empower Power, or adding Fast Healing to Plant Pokemon via feats, etc.

I see we actually have the same concept for Pokemons, only you have Power Points. Is there an actual reason it is needed? Like for balance purposes? Because I'm rather fond of this Recharge mechanic, it doesn't cry for resting every so often, your Pokemon can keep fighting all day, as long as you allow him a few minutes of rest to regain his basic Powers, and a few hours now and then for more powerfully ones. We still have 1/day Powers, just not so much of them.

[waterpenguin43]

Just to nitpick, I think it's stated the first game that Pokemon are almost always Neutral from the get-go; their alignment *might* slowly change to match their trainer's if they're treated well.

Or might become theirs if they are treated badly and the trainer is evil, perhaps.
Also, may I suggest that Pokemon can willingly stop their attacks from dealing any damge past 0 hp?

[Real Sorceror]

Well this will be Poke- only setting, so type doesn't play any role, only subtype matters (which is actually the same as you did it).
Pretty much. I never liked some of the others I found that tried to combine Pokemon with existing D&D monsters. It always seemed clumsy and kinda lame.

Yes, that was our general idea too. We gave them Powers know as in martial classes (Warblade is the most likely candidate, might just need to tweak the numbers a bit).
And they don't need the prepare them at all, just watch for Recharge time.
Defensive abilities fall in whole other category, and they gain them on even numbered levels, and are mostly passive, while Powers are on odd numbered levels, and are mostly standard action.
I've always played the party spellcaster, so the Nine Swords classes never interested me too much, although from what I've seen I agree that the martial maneuvers are probably the best model for anime-style gameplay.
So far I have the Pokemon work like spontaneous spellcasters. They'll learn a new technique every other level.
I'll probably have official battles restricted to only using four moves, but fights with wild Pokemon and criminals will be anything-goes.

We also had a nice idea for Pokemon feats, which can expand their capabilities, like Empower Power, or adding Fast Healing to Plant Pokemon via feats, etc.
Same here. I haven't developed my feats very far yet. Basically I've got stuff like Maximize and Quicken Technique, as well as crafting feats for Poke Balls and other tech gear.

I see we actually have the same concept for Pokemons, only you have Power Points. Is there an actual reason it is needed? Like for balance purposes? Because I'm rather fond of this Recharge mechanic, it doesn't cry for resting every so often, your Pokemon can keep fighting all day, as long as you allow him a few minutes of rest to regain his basic Powers, and a few hours now and then for more powerfully ones. We still have 1/day Powers, just not so much of them.
I basically took the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana. I kinda prefer the Power Point system I have set up for a number of reasons. For one, Pokemon in the game have limited uses of their powers and need to heal or rest to regain them. Also, even with rest, a Pokemon will becomed fatigued from fighting all day without actual healing (potions, etc).
I don't think it will actually be very different from your system. If you're in town or at a Gym, the Poke-center is just down the street, so you can go recharge anyway. Its really only going to affect parties that are out on the road and have lots of encounters in the same day.
Remember that 'mons also have natural weapons that they should be able to use whenever, without points or number of uses. Pretty much any Pokemon should be able to Tackle or Pound or Scratch whenever, so they aren't ever really defenseless.

[Real Sorceror]

Or might become theirs if they are treated badly and the trainer is evil, perhaps.
Also, may I suggest that Pokemon can willingly stop their attacks from dealing any damge past 0 hp?
I just took it a step further and said all attacks in official matches are automatically non-lethal damage unless you specify otherwise.

[Sila Prirode]

Well in official matches it's easy, whenever one Pokemon faints game is over. Even if the overkill happens, and Pokemon is dead, he is immediately transported into his Pokeball, and then can be healed in Pokecentar, or in Gym.
In wilderness, Pokemon tend to stop fighting when others drop unconscious, they are not violent. But there are Evil Pokemon and Trainers,who have no qualms killing (that is actually a plot hook, there is one, or a group of evil trainers, going around killing or capturing specific Pokemon, and they need to be stopped).

[Real Sorceror]

Well in official matches it's easy, whenever one Pokemon faints game is over. Even if the overkill happens, and Pokemon is dead, he is immediately transported into his Pokeball, and then can be healed in Pokecentar, or in Gym.
I don't know that I'd allow free ressurection like that. I'd either say that there is no overkill in an official match, or give Pokemon a bigger negative hit point buffer. Instead of just -10, maybe -10 or thier Con score, whichever is better. Or even 10+Con score. A "fainted" Pokemon would just be unconscious until they reach positive 1 hp.

In wilderness, Pokemon tend to stop fighting when others drop unconscious, they are not violent. But there are Evil Pokemon and Trainers,who have no qualms killing (that is actually a plot hook, there is one, or a group of evil trainers, going around killing or capturing specific Pokemon, and they need to be stopped).
Remember that predatory Pokemon (and humans, too) eat other Pokemon, so they don't necasarily need to be evil to kill your 'mons.

[Croverus]

I'm really interested in this. I made a game that involved the players as pokemon in a trainer-less world, with player's buidling their own pokemon from scratch. The creation process was finished and the fighting tested. But I didn't make a direct conversion to d20 or anything, I built the sytem for it from the ground up.

This looks pretty cool and I'd love to give it a try whenever it becomes playable.

[TabletopNuke]

The "Bride of the Portable Hole" (An updated version of "Portable Hole Full of Beer") gag supplement has a Pokemon trainer prestige class called "Ball Master". Its probably not be exactly what you're looking for, but it might give you some ideas. It's available for free here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=148 (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=148) Even if the "Ball Master" class doesn't help you, its a hilarious supplement that's sure to give you some good laughs.

You could also try creating a 20-level progression of the "Beast Heart Adept" prestige class. You can download it from Wizards here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4 You could make some Pokemon-flavored magical beasts to go with it.

[Real Sorceror]

The "Bride of the Portable Hole" (An updated version of "Portable Hole Full of Beer") gag supplement has a Pokemon trainer prestige class called "Ball Master". Its probably not be exactly what you're looking for, but it might give you some ideas. It's available for free here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=148 (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=148) Even if the "Ball Master" class doesn't help you, its a hilarious supplement that's sure to give you some good laughs.

You could also try creating a 20-level progression of the "Beast Heart Adept" prestige class. You can download it from Wizards here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4 You could make some Pokemon-flavored magical beasts to go with it.
While lolworthy, the Ball Master is centered entirely around the Summon Monster spell, and since we're going for a faithful port of the Pokemon game/anime, there isn't any spellcasting (though there is obviously magic).
I'm not too keen on using an Animal Companion type progression for Pokemon. IMO, the Pokemon should level up and gain powers separately from the trainer. Just as in the show and game, you can have a Pokemon that is too high-level for you to reliably control.
Also, since its pretty easy to convert the 'mons into a d20 system, theres not a whole lot of need to create new magical beasts.

Heres the Ivysaur that goes with the Bulba posted above. Basically they advance like a Sorcerer or a Warblade, gaining a new power known ever other level and gaining power points as per the Spellpoint variant in Unearthed Arcana. I haven't decided whether their "casting" stat should be Wisdom or Charisma. I'm thinking they'll just use whichever is higher.

http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/thumb/7/73/002Ivysaur.png/220px-002Ivysaur.png
Ivysaur (CR 8)
TN Medium Grass Pokemon
Initiative: +1, Senses: Low-Light Vision
----------------------------------
AC: 17 (+1 Dex, +6 natural armor), Dodge
HP: 8d8 + 16 (55)
Fort +9 Ref +5 Will +9
Ability: Overgrow - Grass-type attacks are auto-Empowered when Ivysaur reaches 1/4 hp or lower.
----------------------------------
Speed: 30 ft
Attack Bonus: +7 melee, +7 ranged
Techniques Known: 4, Power Points: 48
0 - Tackle
1st - Absorb, Constrict
2nd - Vine Whip - melee attack, 5ft reach. Deal 4d6+3 Grass damage, +1 vine/four levels (max 3).
----------------------------------
Advancement: 5-16 (Medium)
Evolution: Venusaur 16+
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Intimidate +7, Perception +14,
Feats: Toughness, Great Fortitude, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes
Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 16 (+3)

[Sila Prirode]

I don't know that I'd allow free resurrection like that.
Well it isn't really free resurrection. It depends on the Pokecenter and Gyms. Basically, Gyms will only offer ress and healing for Pokemon that died in Gym Tournaments, while Pokecenters will charge some amount, and also be very rare. Around 4-5 Pokecenter in the whole world, only in the biggest cities/capitals.
So it's not actually free.


Remember that predatory Pokemon (and humans, too) eat other Pokemon, so they don't necessarily need to be evil to kill your 'mons.
Well they will be other animals. Not every bird will be Pidgey. Think about common rats, bunny, vermin, birds, and similar stuff. They are regular animals, there is not really need for Pokemon killing and eating exclusively other Pokemon.
Also, why do you think there can be a shortage of Pokemon? I mean, after all, the DM is one telling the story, if he says there are Pokemon, then they are.
But if you want to quantify it, think about real life, and some species, yes, humans made extinct many of them, but some are still alive, just rare, and in danger. But they are still there.

[TabletopNuke]

I haven't decided whether their "casting" stat should be Wisdom or Charisma. I'm thinking they'll just use whichever is higher.

Pokemon attacks are divided into regular and special attacks, depending on the attack element. Regular attacks include elements such as fighting, earth, and the like. While special attacks include elements such as fire and psychic. Perhaps regular elements would be Constitution based, like D&D abilities based on physical capability. Special abilities could be Charisma-based, like innate spell-like abilities.

[Real Sorceror]

Well it isn't really free resurrection. It depends on the Pokecenter and Gyms. Basically, Gyms will only offer ress and healing for Pokemon that died in Gym Tournaments, while Pokecenters will charge some amount, and also be very rare. Around 4-5 Pokecenter in the whole world, only in the biggest cities/capitals. So it's not actually free.
I can see where you might want to limit the number of Pokecenters, and I imagine they would charge a fee similar to real world vets and hospitals. Personally I’ll be using the cities and routes from the game with the same number of Pokecenters. In practice, most routes will be several days long, so I don’t think players will really be able to abuse the Pokecenters for heals.


Well they will be other animals. Not every bird will be Pidgey. Think about common rats, bunny, vermin, birds, and similar stuff. They are regular animals, there is not really need for Pokemon killing and eating exclusively other Pokemon.

Off the top of my head, the only mundane animals I’ve ever seen where grilled fish, and that was only in the early episodes of the anime. To my knowledge, animals never make an appearance in the games or the manga. In fact, I think the only reason they sometimes appear in the anime is either a slip-up or so little kids won’t see people eating Magikarps and Miltanks.

And aside from Pidgey, you also have Starly, Swellow, Spearow, Wingull, Chatot, etc, so theres not really a lack of variety in species. There are dozens of worm and beetle type Pokemon. Theres pretty much a Pokemon counterpart to just about every animal.

Also, why do you think there can be a shortage of Pokemon? I mean, after all, the DM is one telling the story, if he says there are Pokemon, then they are.
But if you want to quantify it, think about real life, and some species, yes, humans made extinct many of them, but some are still alive, just rare, and in danger. But they are still there.

Huh? Oh no, I don’t think theres a shortage at all. In fact, since people in the Pokemon universe seem to be so eco-friendly, Pokemon are probably more common than animals on Earth. The only Pokemon that really seem rare are some of the evolved Pokemon (for obvious reasons) and the Dragon Pokemon (since they tend to live way out of the way).

[Real Sorceror]

Pokemon attacks are divided into regular and special attacks, depending on the attack element. Regular attacks include elements such as fighting, earth, and the like. While special attacks include elements such as fire and psychic. Perhaps regular elements would be Constitution based, like D&D abilities based on physical capability. Special abilities could be Charisma-based, like innate spell-like abilities.
I've already divided up all attacks based on whether they are listed as Physical or Special. Physicals will probably use Strength and/or Con and Special Attacks will probably use Charisma. Pokemon will also add their Charisma mod to damage when using a move of their same type (ex A Water Pokemon's Bubble deals more damage than a Normal Pokemon's). I'm thinking I'm going to probably base their power points off their Wisdom, but this might give Pokemon a bad case of MAD, similar to the D&D Monk.

[vicente408]

I've already divided up all attacks based on whether they are listed as Physical or Special. Physicals will probably use Strength and/or Con and Special Attacks will probably use Charisma. Pokemon will also add their Charisma mod to damage when using a move of their same type (ex A Water Pokemon's Bubble deals more damage than a Normal Pokemon's). I'm thinking I'm going to probably base their power points off their Wisdom, but this might give Pokemon a bad case of MAD, similar to the D&D Monk.

As long as every pokemon has the same MAD, it should balance out, no? The problem with it only comes up when some classes need to spread out their abilities and others do not.

[Real Sorceror]

As long as every pokemon has the same MAD, it should balance out, no? The problem with it only comes up when some classes need to spread out their abilities and others do not.
Thats true, so it might not be so bad after all. A big problem so far is that a lot of unevolved Pokemon do not have high enough Wis and Cha to actually use 1st level techniques. This is especially bad in Pokemon like Caterpie and Ratatta who I think should have bad Charisma and stuff.
Thus far none of the first and second evolutions are really having a problem. Of course I expect players to start buying stat boosters like Iron and Calcium to boost their favorite team.

[Sir Shadow]

Hrm... I like what you're doing... but I just have some suggestions/concerns...

Why does bulbasaur only have 2 techs? why not just give them the full list?

To reflect how relevant abilities effect damage, why not change damage to dealing a more ability-dependent amount like 4d4+(relevant ability mod). From previous work on a similar project, I have to say that using lots of small dice is what you want to do for damage to keep the variability of the damage you'll deal very small. That's the best way to stay true to the games and how they do damage.

Also, it might be useful to think of the abilities in this way compared to the stats in game: HP = Con, Attack = Str, Spc Attack = Cha, and Speed = Dex. Int doesn't get anything, it's really not important for your pokemon to be intelligent so much as it is for the trainer to be intelligent. When a pokemon is caught roll 5d3 for Int. For legendaries, just give them a static score. Wisdom is used primarily to increase Will, and will is used to resist status affects like Paralysis or Poison.

Defense/Special Defense is difficult, but I'd suggest giving the pokemon "DR/(elemental type)" and/or "Resistance/(elemental type)" depending on their HD, and this will be different for all pokemon depending on how "defensive" or "special Defensive" they are in the game. Since it's DR against a certain elemental type it will better reflect super effectiveness by how it's able to overcome DR/Resistance. For types that are "not very effective", you can say that "DR/Resistance is considered doubled with a minimum of 1 damage being taken".

Overgrow looks good, but I'd suggest keeping it closer to the game. A true-to-game translation would be "The pokemon's grass-type attacks deal 1.5 damage when the user is below 1/3 their maximum HP"

Each level, have all the pokemon's abilities increase by a certain amount of dice. Nothing big, from a static 1 increase (pathetic), 1d2 (poor), 1d3 (average), 2d2 (good), or 3d2 (amazing); and just assign them to each pokemon's abilities when you create them. Like bulbasaur would have Poor Str, Poor Dex, Pathetic Con, (Int doesn't increase), Average Wis, and Average Cha.

Why not just give pokemon moves Uses/Day? They'd be able to spam them too much? Nah, you think a party is just going to stop and rest after each battle? Or are you expecting them to run into opponents less often? At that point, it's really up to the DM to keep it real.

I'd be interested in brainstorming with either of you guys or helping to a larger project in general... or if nothing I've suggested interests you at all, I may go out and make my own system...

[Real Sorceror]

Hrm... I like what you're doing... but I just have some suggestions/concerns...

Why does bulbasaur only have 2 techs? why not just give them the full list?
Its only level one and I don't want it to have all of its abilities from the get-go. My idea so far is for them to learn a new tech every odd numbered level. Besides, the starter Bulbasuar from the game only has Tackle when you first get it.


To reflect how relevant abilities effect damage, why not change damage to dealing a more ability-dependent amount like 4d4+(relevant ability mod). From previous work on a similar project, I have to say that using lots of small dice is what you want to do for damage to keep the variability of the damage you'll deal very small. That's the best way to stay true to the games and how they do damage.
That basically what I'll be doing. Absorb will deal more dice of damage based on its level, but will also deal additional damage equal to his Cha mod (aka his special attack).

Also, it might be useful to think of the abilities in this way compared to the stats in game: HP = Con, Attack = Str, Spc Attack = Cha, and Speed = Dex. Int doesn't get anything, it's really not important for your pokemon to be intelligent so much as it is for the trainer to be intelligent. When a pokemon is caught roll 5d3 for Int. For legendaries, just give them a static score. Wisdom is used primarily to increase Will, and will is used to resist status affects like Paralysis or Poison.
Way ahead of you there. The formula that MythMage developed is as follows:

Constitution = HP/5
Strength = Attack/5
Natural Armor = Defense/10
Charisma = Spec Attack/5
Wisdom = Spec Defense/5
Dexterity = Speed/5

I disagree with Int being 5d3. Anything above 10 is waaay too high for %80 of Pokemon out right now. I've been assigning Int scores on a case by case basis, usually ranging from 4-10. In d20, Paraysis and Poison are both resisted by Fortitude saves which run off Con. Wisdom only boosts Will saves, which would resist Confusion, Infatuation, and the like.


Defense/Special Defense is difficult, but I'd suggest giving the pokemon "DR/(elemental type)" and/or "Resistance/(elemental type)" depending on their HD, and this will be different for all pokemon depending on how "defensive" or "special Defensive" they are in the game. Since it's DR against a certain elemental type it will better reflect super effectiveness by how it's able to overcome DR/Resistance. For types that are "not very effective", you can say that "DR/Resistance is considered doubled with a minimum of 1 damage being taken".
Thus far I've been calculating super effective and ineffective attacks on a flat rate, with Super effective dealing x2 damage and not very effective attacks dealing half. Some abilities I've created do grant DR equal to the Pokemon's Con or Wis mod, though.


Overgrow looks good, but I'd suggest keeping it closer to the game. A true-to-game translation would be "The pokemon's grass-type attacks deal 1.5 damage when the user is below 1/3 their maximum HP"
I will be tweaking some things based on the needs of the game. Most of my stuff is still in the "alpha" stage, so its all subject to change. I still don't have any of the classes finished, most of the feats and skills are missing, and I've only partially stated the first 35 or so monsters.


Each level, have all the pokemon's abilities increase by a certain amount of dice. Nothing big, from a static 1 increase (pathetic), 1d2 (poor), 1d3 (average), 2d2 (good), or 3d2 (amazing); and just assign them to each pokemon's abilities when you create them. Like bulbasaur would have Poor Str, Poor Dex, Pathetic Con, (Int doesn't increase), Average Wis, and Average Cha.
I agree that something like that would be nice, but I haven't quite firgured out how I'll implement it yet. Notice the huge stat difference between the Bulba and Ivysaur builds? That gap needs to be closed a little, because if you advance a Bulbasuar up to that level using the normal +1 ability point every four levels, it'll still be pathetic compared to an Ivysaur.


Why not just give pokemon moves Uses/Day? They'd be able to spam them too much? Nah, you think a party is just going to stop and rest after each battle? Or are you expecting them to run into opponents less often? At that point, it's really up to the DM to keep it real.
I find that a power point pool gives the players a little more flexibility and requires less bookkeeping. I expect plenty of battles, but if you have a party of 3-4 players, each with 6 or more Pokemon, they aren't going to tire out very quickly.


I'd be interested in brainstorming with either of you guys or helping to a larger project in general... or if nothing I've suggested interests you at all, I may go out and make my own system...
Hey, I'm all for having a chat. If I develop this thing on my own I won't have anything to compare it to and it might end up with huge holes in it.

[Sir Shadow]

Constitution = HP/5
Strength = Attack/5
Natural Armor = Defense/10
Charisma = Spec Attack/5
Wisdom = Spec Defense/5
Dexterity = Speed/5
Hrm, I really don't like Natural Armor being defense and Wisdom being special defense. I had already thought of that when I suggested DR and Resistance. The reason behind it is that in Pokemon, Defense doesn't make you harder to hit like Natural Armor does. No matter how high your pokemon's defense is, attacks will always do at least one damage. I don't think anything should increase a pokemon's AC other than Dexterity and that can be offset by a pokemon with high Strength (higher attack bonus).

I disagree with Int being 5d3. Anything above 10 is waaay too high for %80 of Pokemon out right now. I've been assigning Int scores on a case by case basis, usually ranging from 4-10. In d20, Paraysis and Poison are both resisted by Fortitude saves which run off Con. Wisdom only boosts Will saves, which would resist Confusion, Infatuation, and the like.how about 5d2 (5-10 Int) or 4d3 (4-12 Int). Since you and I both agree that intelligence isn't that important to the pokemon, I thought that a variability might be good for purely roleplaying purposes. Then again... now that I think about it. Maybe intelligence could be used for how well a pokemon can resist being captured? Then it would be best to give Legendaries static Int anyways like I says.

I agree that something like that would be nice, but I haven't quite firgured out how I'll implement it yet. Notice the huge stat difference between the Bulba and Ivysaur builds? That gap needs to be closed a little, because if you advance a Bulbasuar up to that level using the normal +1 ability point every four levels, it'll still be pathetic compared to an Ivysaur.Well, the bonuses I mentioned would be added every level. Here's what I was thinking... I think that pokemon's levels should be equal to their levels in game. That way it can be a flat transfer, even moves could be given at the same levels. The only problem I see would be that higher level pokemon would have an extreme amount of HP. But I think that might be offset by the +(ability mod) to damage of attacks. To make sure it doesn't take forever to level, just increase pokemon's base CR to give an appropriate amount of XP.
I find that a power point pool gives the players a little more flexibility and requires less bookkeeping. I expect plenty of battles, but if you have a party of 3-4 players, each with 6 or more Pokemon, they aren't going to tire out very quickly. True, now that I think about it, power point does sound good.

[Real Sorceror]

I apologize in advance for the monstrous size of my posts. :smallbiggrin:


Hrm, I really don't like Natural Armor being defense and Wisdom being special defense. I had already thought of that when I suggested DR and Resistance. The reason behind it is that in Pokemon, Defense doesn't make you harder to hit like Natural Armor does. No matter how high your pokemon's defense is, attacks will always do at least one damage. I don't think anything should increase a pokemon's AC other than Dexterity and that can be offset by a pokemon with high Strength (higher attack bonus).
The problem with that is there aren't any magic items or things that will boost a mon's AC. So if they are just adding their Dex, pretty much all Pokemon will have an AC of 6-15, making them laughably easy to hit. Meanwhile, a Pokemon's accuracy would be increasing with its level due to its Base Attack Bonus + Strength mod + d20 roll. This means that pretty much all attacks will hit, all the time. Even a Pokemon who has been hit several times with an accuracy debuff like Sand Attack would still hit regularly. I'm basically trying to maintain the flavor and feel of the game, so I'm not overly concerned with maintaining every little detail. This also needs to be a d20 game, and if attacks are guaranteed to hit %90 of the time, theres really no reason to even roll a d20, which pretty much defeats the purpose of even making a d20 conversion in the first place.


how about 5d2 (5-10 Int) or 4d3 (4-12 Int). Since you and I both agree that intelligence isn't that important to the pokemon, I thought that a variability might be good for purely roleplaying purposes. Then again... now that I think about it. Maybe intelligence could be used for how well a pokemon can resist being captured? Then it would be best to give Legendaries static Int anyways like I says.
5d2 with a minimum of 4 sounds good for most Pokemon. For very humanoid types or Psychic types like Mr Mime or Hitmonlee, I'd probably just roll normally with 4d6. I would probably also give a +1 or +2 Int bonus when Pokemon evolve. But ya, Legendaries are basically NPCs, so they would have a predetermined Int.
I would probably use Charisma or maybe Wisdom to determine how hard a Pokemon is to capture since most Pokemon will have a positive mod in those scores but a negative mod in Intelligence. On the other hand, Trainers should use Int when making a check to capture Pokemon.


Well, the bonuses I mentioned would be added every level. Here's what I was thinking... I think that pokemon's levels should be equal to their levels in game. That way it can be a flat transfer, even moves could be given at the same levels. The only problem I see would be that higher level pokemon would have an extreme amount of HP. But I think that might be offset by the +(ability mod) to damage of attacks. To make sure it doesn't take forever to level, just increase pokemon's base CR to give an appropriate amount of XP. True, now that I think about it, power point does sound good.
Woah, hold up there, partner. Have you ever played a game at level 50? What about level 80? The HP would be huge, and like I said earlier, there aren't any magic items. That means that even at level 56, you aren't going to have very impressive ability scores (unless we do come up with a different ability score progression).
Also, remember that if you include their team, each player is pretty much running 7 characters. That will take forever to update every time you level and will only get worse and worse the higher level you are.
The way I'd prefer to do it is to have everything appear at half the level it appears in the game. So Charmeleon will evolve into Charizard at level 18 (instead of level 36). Most legendaries (and the Eilte Four) will then appear from level 20-30, with a few a little higher. This seems much more reasonable. Remember that, statistically, most d20 games never go past 15 level. Even if you are giving out more exp, theres no way players are going to get to level 50 unless they are extremely hardcore or meet more than once a week. Players aren't going to spend a 4 hour session grinding for exp. They'll spend a good portion of that time roleplaying with eachother and doing other things.
As for ability scores, there is a system already built into the game that determines how many points a Pokemon gets each level. I'm gonna see if I can figure how that works and then I'll try and convert it over to what I have.

[Sir Shadow]

The problem with that is there aren't any magic items or things that will boost a mon's AC...Um, like I said, Dexterity would be increasing every level by 1 to 3d2 so it would also be incredibly big to scale along with the Attack Bonus. Also, if you look at the game, it's the moves, not the pokemon, that have an inherent chance to hit. Pokemon moves with 100% hit rate will always hit unless modified by an accuracy reducing skill. So it's perfectly feasible for pokemon to hit a majority of the time in the game.

I would probably use Charisma or maybe Wisdom to determine how hard a Pokemon is to capture since most Pokemon will have a positive mod in those scores but a negative mod in Intelligence. On the other hand, Trainers should use Int when making a check to capture Pokemon.Hrm, I dunno, I was just trying to think of a way that Int could be implemented.

Woah, hold up there, partner. Have you ever played a game at level 50? What about level 80? The HP would be huge, and like I said earlier, there aren't any magic items. That means that even at level 56, you aren't going to have very impressive ability scores (unless we do come up with a different ability score progression). :/ um.. what? Consider a pokemon with a "Pathetic" ability. By level 56 his score is going to at least be 56 + what he started with. Ability scores are going to be huge. HP might be huge, but when you're dealing a lot of dice worth of damage as well as + your ability mod, you're going to be doing a huge load of damage as well. For reference to how lots of damage and lots of HP scale together, take a look at BLEACH d20.

Even if you are giving out more exp, theres no way players are going to get to level 50 unless they are extremely hardcore or meet more than once a week.I was actually thinking of decreasing the amount of XP needed to level and making more like (read: exactly) what it is in the actual pokemon game.

As for ability scores, there is a system already built into the game that determines how many points a Pokemon gets each level. I'm gonna see if I can figure how that works and then I'll try and convert it over to what I have.well, the in-game way pokemon increase their stats won't translate over that well to d20. It's actually what I had in mind when I proposed the other way to increase abilities. I used bulbapedia and looking at the base stats window to see what they are good at etc. and then assigning pathetic/poor/etc to each stat.

Now for another thing... I would actually suggest limiting how many moves a pokemon has. Maybe forcing the trainer to choose 6 moves every time they summon the pokemon? because past that, the pokemon have an insane amount of options each turn, especially if TMs/HMs are brought into action.

[Real Sorceror]

Just so you know ahead of time, I think we might have very different goals for how a Pokemon game should look. I don’t really think you have bad ideas, its just not the direction I’m heading in.

Um, like I said, Dexterity would be increasing every level by 1 to 3d2 so it would also be incredibly big to scale along with the Attack Bonus. Also, if you look at the game, it's the moves, not the pokemon, that have an inherent chance to hit. Pokemon moves with 100% hit rate will always hit unless modified by an accuracy reducing skill. So it's perfectly feasible for pokemon to hit a majority of the time in the game.
That’s all well and good for a video game, but it doesn’t work well when brought over to a table-top game. I also don’t like the idea of their ability scores scaling that fast. Even with a bad progression, your version of Blastoise at level 50 would have a 50 Dexterity or better, meaning he can back-flip better than Spiderman. That just doesn’t seem right. Keep in mind that Pokemon is a Japanese game, and they like to have their numbers in the 100’s and 1000’s. Meanwhile D&D, being an American game, operates on a much smaller scale, making ability scores of 18 or 20 superhuman, so you would need to redefine what a score of 20 actually means. In the Pokemon video game, 20 is a very bad score, where in D&D 20 its very good.

Hrm, I dunno, I was just trying to think of a way that Int could be implemented.
Its cool. Int is still somewhat important to a Pokemon, like determining whether or not they can understand human speech and if they get any bonus skill points. I always saw the whole being captured thing as being determined by the Pokemon’s health or willpower, so Int didn’t seem right.

:/ um.. what? Consider a pokemon with a "Pathetic" ability. By level 56 his score is going to at least be 56 + what he started with. Ability scores are going to be huge. HP might be huge, but when you're dealing a lot of dice worth of damage as well as + your ability mod, you're going to be doing a huge load of damage as well. For reference to how lots of damage and lots of HP scale together, take a look at BLEACH d20.
Ya, we play the deities of our pantheon as player characters, so I’m familiar with what big abilities scores and lots of damage do. It kinda gets out of hand after a certain point. I’d really prefer to keep things as simple as possible. Allowing ability scores to skyrocket into the 70s and 80s means that Pokemon will be chucking mountains and aircraft carriers at eachother unless we adjust the rules for carrying capacity.
Also, do you plan on changing the rules for skill checks? A Balance or Climb check of around 100 allows you to stand on clouds or upside down on the ceiling. This is something that Pokemon probably shouldn’t be doing regardless of their level.

I was actually thinking of decreasing the amount of XP needed to level and making more like (read: exactly) what it is in the actual pokemon game.
I agree with that. I don’t know if I’d do it as fast as in the game, but I think the Pokemon (but not necessarily the human player characters) should level a little faster.

well, the in-game way pokemon increase their stats won't translate over that well to d20. It's actually what I had in mind when I proposed the other way to increase abilities. I used bulbapedia and looking at the base stats window to see what they are good at etc. and then assigning pathetic/poor/etc to each stat.
Ya, I’ve been using bulbapedia a lot as well. I’ll probably do something similar with the ability scores and see if I can work out a formula I like.

Now for another thing... I would actually suggest limiting how many moves a pokemon has. Maybe forcing the trainer to choose 6 moves every time they summon the pokemon? because past that, the pokemon have an insane amount of options each turn, especially if TMs/HMs are brought into action.
Agreed, but only for official matches. Like in a gym match or tournament, the trainer should choose what moves the mon is allowed to use (probably 4-6 moves). Out in the wild, though, they should pretty much be able to use anything they know.


Ps. Did we scare everybody off? I was hoping Bodez would pop back in at least, since he started the thread.
Also, in case you where interested, here is an earlier thread on a Pokemon d20 game Pokemon D20 a sister thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90238).

[Sila Prirode]

Ps. Did we scare everybody off? I was hoping Bodez would pop back in at least, since he started the thread.
Wow, nice setup for return you gave me here :smallbiggrin:

I was visiting home from college for a few days, now I got back. Anyway, on to homebrew!
I like the idea of rolling stats each level, with regards to real Pokemon stats, but can I propose something different?
Real Sorceror, you mentioned that there is a big gap between Bulbasaur and Ivysaur powerwise, but there is a simple solution. In my game, Pokemon will evolve for the first time at level 6, then at level 11 a second time. If he doesn't not evolve on level 6, he gains a +2 on some stats, which will vary from Pokemon to Pokemon, they won't get upgrade on all stats (I will fine tune that in the end, when all the numbers are down, now it's just on concept phase). Then again, if they don't level at 7 or 8, another +1 on stats, and it continues in that way, every two levels. At level 12 and 16 it's again +2, on the other even levels it's +1.
Let me use an example, your Bulbasaur.
On level 1 he has Str 10 (+0), Con 10 (+0), Dex 9 (-1), Int 6 (-2), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
On level 4 he gets a +1 to Dex, and then at level 8 on let's say Dex again.
So by level 8 he has Str 10 (+0), Con 10 (+0), Dex 11 (+0), Int 6 (-2), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
Then, instead of evolving, he get's stat upgrade.
Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 13 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 13 (+1), App 12 (+1).
Compare this to your Ivysaur Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 16 (+3), App 12 (+1).
Bulba is only lacking in Wis and Cha this way, but at level 10 it actually gains a bit of edge, because his stats will look like this.
Str 12 (+1), Con 12 (+1), Dex 14 (+2), Int 8 (-1), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 14 (+2), App 12 (+1).
So, on level 10, Bulbasaur has only -1 on modifier on Wis and Cha, but a +1 on Dex. Also, on level 12 he will gain +2 on Str and Con again, making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.
Hope this isn't to painful to read, it's just jumbled numbers all over the post:smallredface:

[Sir Shadow]

I'll respond to Sorc later (since I'm not technically supposed to be on the site) but I just had to respond to Bodec.


making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.In the pokemon game. Evolved pokemon are always stronger than lower level pokemon at any given level stat-wise. BUT unevolved pokemon learn Moves faster than evolved pokemon. Bodec, you've really really just got it backwards, at least if you're trying to stay true to the games at all.

[Sila Prirode]

But you have to consider that all Pokemon have the same table for learning moves, similar to warblade. We can give them more maneuvres known, but they won't be of higher level. That would be usefull on higher levels, but below 15 level is still subpar to having higher stats.
You have to keep in mind that this is Pokemon in 3.5 DnD, not Pokemon RPG in general, you can't have full conversion from game.

[Sir Shadow]

I think that, Sorc--correct me and I'm wrong--and I are going for a more flat-rate translation from game to d20. I don't think that all pokemon have the same table on learning moves. I think that they should all be unique to each pokemon (not specifically, but by species).

Also, a +1-+5 to Abilities don't do THAT much in the grand scheme of things when you think how Bulbasaur learns moves 1-5 levels before Ivysaur. And just think about it... it doesn't make SENSE for an unevlolved pokemon to have higher stats than an evolved one.

[Sir Shadow]

We can give them more maneuvers known, but they won't be of higher level.And... what? they could be of equal level, and if the bulbasaur knows more moves (especially ones that do more damage) than the ivysaur of equal level, the Bulbasaur will most likely still have an advantage.

I agree that pokemon should get increase to their stats as they level, but between the evolved pokemon and the unevolved at the same level, the evolved should always have higher stats. If not, what's the point of evolving???

[Real Sorceror]

Wow, nice setup for return you gave me here

I was visiting home from college for a few days, now I got back. Anyway, on to homebrew!
I like the idea of rolling stats each level, with regards to real Pokemon stats, but can I propose something different?
Real Sorceror, you mentioned that there is a big gap between Bulbasaur and Ivysaur powerwise, but there is a simple solution. In my game, Pokemon will evolve for the first time at level 6, then at level 11 a second time. If he doesn't not evolve on level 6, he gains a +2 on some stats, which will vary from Pokemon to Pokemon, they won't get upgrade on all stats (I will fine tune that in the end, when all the numbers are down, now it's just on concept phase). Then again, if they don't level at 7 or 8, another +1 on stats, and it continues in that way, every two levels. At level 12 and 16 it's again +2, on the other even levels it's +1.
Let me use an example, your Bulbasaur.
[-summerized-]
So, on level 10, Bulbasaur has only -1 on modifier on Wis and Cha, but a +1 on Dex. Also, on level 12 he will gain +2 on Str and Con again, making him a bit more physically durable then Ivy, but with less maneuvers per day. Which is fine in my book, if you don't evolve you learn to bit a bit of a tougher guy, with evolving you learn different techniques and tricks.
Hope this isn't to painful to read, it's just jumbled numbers all over the post
As Shadow said, you kinda have it backwards. Bulbasaur is always going to be weaker unless it is significantly higher level. I also don’t know that I like the idea of any ‘mon gaining moves faster than others (unless of course they are learning them from TMs and such).
I’m cool with the fact that Ivysaur is stronger (that’s how its supposed to be), I just didn’t want the power gap to be so extreme. That way when the party hits levels 8-10 (when most mons evolve), it doesn't suddenly double in power. I think I can work that out, though.
As for the ability points every few levels, I’m still working on a formula for that. Probably it will be something like a +1 to poor stats, +2 to average, and +3 to good stats, probably every 4 levels. That’s the oversimplified version, though.


But you have to consider that all Pokemon have the same table for learning moves, similar to warblade. We can give them more maneuvres known, but they won't be of higher level. That would be usefull on higher levels, but below 15 level is still subpar to having higher stats.
You have to keep in mind that this is Pokemon in 3.5 DnD, not Pokemon RPG in general, you can't have full conversion from game.
Hold that thought, I’ll explain below so I can answer both posts.


I think that, Sorc--correct me and I'm wrong--and I are going for a more flat-rate translation from game to d20. I don't think that all pokemon have the same table on learning moves. I think that they should all be unique to each pokemon (not specifically, but by species).
I’m going for a happy medium, really. All monsters will have access to Normal moves (within reason) and moves of their type (again, within reason). For example, Doduo cannot learn Wing Attack or Mega Punch because it doesn’t have wings or even arms. It also can’t learn Transform, since that move is unique to Ditto. Basically, if it makes sense, then its ok. Doduo could also learn other types of moves from TMs or special training, but could never learn Electric attacks or other moves it is weak to.
I’m not too keen on each mon having a unique ability list. Remember, theres 500 of these buggers. I don’t want to cut too many corners, but I also don’t want the project to be a complete bear. It will be easier to limit them to a certain range of attacks based on their type rather than specific species.

[Sila Prirode]

I’m cool with the fact that Ivysaur is stronger (that’s how its supposed to be), I just didn’t want the power gap to be so extreme. That way when the party hits levels 8-10 (when most mons evolve), it doesn't suddenly double in power. I think I can work that out, though.


Well that is precisely the thing I offered to you right there. With the application of my tactic, your Ivysaur will have more Power Points and maneuvers, while still being exactly the same for endurance and strength. If you want you can tone down a bit the bonuses gained on stats, which is why I wrote that it's individual to all Pokemon, I just used Bulba as an example.

And for what Shadow wrote, I still stand by that it is to clumsy and cumbersome to have different tables for every Pokemon type, instead of just one for all of them. Especially when you consider that you would have to have different tables for Pokemon with different number of evolve stages.



And... what? they could be of equal level, and if the bulbasaur knows more moves (especially ones that do more damage) than the ivysaur of equal level, the Bulbasaur will most likely still have an advantage.


But that won't be moves that do more damage. That would be moves of smaller level. Consider this, if you have two moves that do weak damage, and one move that does much bigger damage, and you're up with a Pokemon who has one weak, and one strong move, which one has the advantage?
I'd go with neither, because they would both use they stronger move, which in the case of Bulba vs Ivysaur is the same one (let's say Vine Strike).
They would just be a little more versatile.
What you need to consider is that this is supposed to be balanced, and work for everything. For my game I would be very glad to offer one of the players who just loves his Charmander and won't evolve him anywhere, to have a chance of beating something, and not making him lose by default because he plays what he wants.

[Sir Shadow]

For my game I would be very glad to offer one of the players who just loves his Charmander and won't evolve him anywhere, to have a chance of beating something, and not making him lose by default because he plays what he wants.... ok

Let's just for a second, go by what I'm saying, that unevolved pokemon learn moves faster but evolved pokemon have better stats. have a charmander and charmeleon fighting different bulbasaur, we'll say level 10 because that's nice and round.

A charmander with a flamethrower, let's say that does 1d6/level +Cha mod.
give him these theoretical stats (+2 to cha since we haven't chosen how to increase ability scores yet and we're just using basic every 4 HD). 10 Str, 9 Dex, 14 Cha. The other stats are unimportant.

So, with Flamethrower he's doing 10d6+2, again we haven't decided what we're using. But still he has a -1 to his BAB. let's just say he's a dragon and gets full BAB progression so he has +9 to hit with a ranged attack.

Let's say our Charmeleon just has Ember, simply for sake of argument that unevolved pokemon learn moves earlier, and it does 1d4/level + Cha mod. give him these theoretical stats, also adding +2 to cha, because this Charmeleon REALLY likes his special attack. 13 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Cha. (BTW, I'm using Sorc's system for figuring out the base stats.)

So Charmander has +9 to hit with 10d6+2 (37 average) damage
And Charmeleon has +10 to hit with 10d4+3 (28 average) damage.

Now, the Charmeleon might have a little more chance to hit, but he's doing a full 9 less damage on average, twice that when you consider super-effectiveness. I'd say there's no clear advantage, since Charmeleon will also have higher HP and defense than Charmander, but I think the tradoffs are rather on par.

Charmeleon will eventually learn Flamethrower, but Charmander will have already learned another ability that gives them an edge. Plus, if we're going by game experience necessities like I suggested, Charmander will also need less experience to level up.

[BooNL]

This looks like a pretty cool project. Both Bodez' and RealSorcerer's systems have managed to capture the spirit of the pokemon games.

I've seen games of M&M played, using the power system to create techniques, it works pretty well. Though I prefer 3.5 myself.

Following this thread with interest. Any chance of a pbp playtest?

[Sila Prirode]

A charmander with a flamethrower, let's say that does 1d6/level +Cha mod.
give him these theoretical stats (+2 to cha since we haven't chosen how to increase ability scores yet and we're just using basic every 4 HD). 10 Str, 9 Dex, 14 Cha. The other stats are unimportant.

So, with Flamethrower he's doing 10d6+2, again we haven't decided what we're using. But still he has a -1 to his BAB. let's just say he's a dragon and gets full BAB progression so he has +9 to hit with a ranged attack.

Let's say our Charmeleon just has Ember, simply for sake of argument that unevolved pokemon learn moves earlier, and it does 1d4/level + Cha mod. give him these theoretical stats, also adding +2 to cha, because this Charmeleon REALLY likes his special attack. 13 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Cha. (BTW, I'm using Sorc's system for figuring out the base stats.)

So Charmander has +9 to hit with 10d6+2 (37 average) damage
And Charmeleon has +10 to hit with 10d4+3 (28 average) damage.


Yes, that does stand as you typed (said? :smallsmile: ) it. But I will repeat myself again, there won't be any faster learning of abilities. Using your example, with lvl 10 Charmander and Charmeleon the difference between them in my game would be that Charmeleon would have Flamethrower and Ember, while Charmander would have Flamethrower, Ember, and something like Tackle, or some other lower level attack.
That way Charmeleon would have a slight advantage (+1 to hit, +1 damage), but Charmander would be a little more verstaile (non-Fire attack, for dealing with Pokemon that are resistant to Fire).



Charmeleon will eventually learn Flamethrower, but Charmander will have already learned another ability that gives them an edge. Plus, if we're going by game experience necessities like I suggested, Charmander will also need less experience to level up.

I'm not really keen of bonus experience, it didn't work out with level adjustment, I'm afraid it won't work here either.

For the sake of argument, would you be content with the idea that unevolved Pokemon are a bit more versatile, while evolved Pokemon are stronger?
That is the idea I'm going by, I would like to hear your opinion on.

[BooNL]

For the sake of argument, would you be content with the idea that unevolved Pokemon are a bit more versatile, while evolved Pokemon are stronger?
That is the idea I'm going by, I would like to hear your opinion on.

To be honest, while it works in the original games, I don't think that translates well to d20.

Remember that in d20 you're supposed to get stronger as you level. Also, having to split a pokemon (say charmander) into three different stat blocks in case someone decides to level later is cumbersome. What I suggest is making evolutions pure stat changes. For example:

Charmander has a basic "class" progression with BaB, saves and maneuvres known.
At level 6 he evolves into Charmeleon and gets + to some ability scores (say +4 STR and CHA).
At level 12 he evolves into Charizard and again gets a couple of ability score bonusses and a new type (flying).

A pokemon can choose to postpone their evolution, but gain no bonusses from it.

[Sila Prirode]

Charmander has a basic "class" progression with BaB, saves and maneuvres known.
At level 6 he evolves into Charmeleon and gets + to some ability scores (say +4 STR and CHA).
At level 12 he evolves into Charizard and again gets a couple of ability score bonusses and a new type (flying).


Well it was always intended to work like that, with ability scores, and a few more perks (like Charizard gains flying like you mentioned).

[Real Sorceror]

Well it was always intended to work like that, with ability scores, and a few more perks (like Charizard gains flying like you mentioned).
How about this?
When a Pokemon reaches the level where it would evolve (level 9 in the case of Charmander) it can choose to either evolve or learn a new attack of a level it has access to.
A level 9 Charmeleon will still be stronger and it harder, but a level 9 Charmander will know one more 4th level technique. This process could then be repeated by postponing Charmeleon's evolution into Charizard at level 18.
That seems pretty simple to me and doesn't require all of them to have different progressions.

[Real Sorceror]

This looks like a pretty cool project. Both Bodez' and RealSorcerer's systems have managed to capture the spirit of the pokemon games.

I've seen games of M&M played, using the power system to create techniques, it works pretty well. Though I prefer 3.5 myself.

Following this thread with interest. Any chance of a pbp playtest?
Hey I appreciate the compliment. I've never DMed (or even played) a pbp, but I could try a few just to test the mechanics. I still haven't made much headway with the Human classes or with the Pokemon moves.
I now have Pokemon 1-51 (plus a few others) 90% done. If I get the time I'll try and concentrate on stating out what all the moves do.

[Sir Shadow]

Yea, if 5-6 pokemon's moves could be stated out, we could do test arenas...

[Sila Prirode]

When a Pokemon reaches the level where it would evolve (level 9 in the case of Charmander) it can choose to either evolve or learn a new attack of a level it has access to.
A level 9 Charmeleon will still be stronger and it harder, but a level 9 Charmander will know one more 4th level technique.
That is exactly what I had in mind. But I think would we better if instead they would gain a lower level power (1, 2, 3) and a boost to some stats (but still not enough to make them equal to evolved forms). That way the Charmeleon would still be stronger, but Charmander would have one more trick up his sleeve.

[Real Sorceror]

Yea, if 5-6 pokemon's moves could be stated out, we could do test arenas...
Hey, don't let me slow you down. You three bums feel free to start stating some attacks. And get working on those classes while you're at it. :smallamused:
But seriously, I'll get on it when I get the time. Unfortunately, Champions Online is having their Halloween Event right now, so I'll be a little preoccupied for the next few days.

[Sir Shadow]

:P completely understandable. I may have some time to work on it saturday. My job and school has been sucking away my creativity, I hate in-class essays.

Also, if I stat things up and then disappear for some reason, feel free to use anything without worrying about it. Just getting these things out of the way.

[BooNL]

Hey, don't let me slow you down. You three bums feel free to start stating some attacks. And get working on those classes while you're at it. :smallamused:
But seriously, I'll get on it when I get the time. Unfortunately, Champions Online is having their Halloween Event right now, so I'll be a little preoccupied for the next few days.

Well, if you put it that way. I just might do that :smalltongue:.

Everything you've finished so far has been posted on the wiki right? I might be able to check out ToB later today and come up with some suitable moves for the 'mons.

Are the power levels of the moves akin to the power levels of ToB or is there another measuring unit for us?

Calling dibs on Ground and Water moves!

Also: arenas sound like fun!
Just let us know when you have enough material to work with.

[Real Sorceror]

Well, if you put it that way. I just might do that :smalltongue:.

Everything you've finished so far has been posted on the wiki right? I might be able to check out ToB later today and come up with some suitable moves for the 'mons.

Are the power levels of the moves akin to the power levels of ToB or is there another measuring unit for us?

Calling dibs on Ground and Water moves!

Also: arenas sound like fun!
Just let us know when you have enough material to work with.
Yup, pretty much everything I've done so far is on the wiki except for a few mons that are only half done.
A good number of the moves can be found on the "Techniques" page. They are all sorted by level. Obviously anything listed as Physical should use a physical ability score for saves and whatnot, while the Special attacks should be based on mental stats.
The only real criteria is that the move should resemble the move from the game, although you are free to interpret range, area, and number of targets. For example, Flamethrower should probably be a line effect and require a Reflex save instead of an attack roll.
The overall strength of a move should fall somewhere between a martial maneuver and an arcane spell of the same level.

[BooNL]

I don't think I understand you powerpoint chart. It's divided in 4 sections, gaining points up to lvl 20.

Are you splitting PP usage among different attack types?

For example, should a lvl 3 nidoran have the following points to spend on attacks:
Physical: 1
Elemental: 7
Special: 8
Other: 0

Or is that the cost of the ability at the given level?

A bit of explanation on the wiki would be appreciated :smallsmile:

[Real Sorceror]

I don't think I understand you powerpoint chart. It's divided in 4 sections, gaining points up to lvl 20.

Are you splitting PP usage among different attack types?

For example, should a lvl 3 nidoran have the following points to spend on attacks:
Physical: 1
Elemental: 7
Special: 8
Other: 0

Or is that the cost of the ability at the given level?

A bit of explanation on the wiki would be appreciated :smallsmile:
The power point chart is much like the one from Unearthed Arcana. A Pokemon gains a pool of pp based on its level (1st-20th) and then gains bonus pp based on its Wisdom modifier.
Originally, Black Dragon had the 17 types of Pokemon split into three categories that gained pp at a different rate. Fighting, Normal, Flying etc all gained pp using the Physical column, while Fire, Water, etc use the Elemental and Psychic and whatnot use the special.
I haven't decided if I like that or not and I may just have all mons gain pp at the same rate (probably using the Elemental column).

The cost of each move is equal to the move's level x2, then subtract 1. So something like this:

1st lvl = 1pp
2md = 3pp
3rd = 5pp
4th = 7pp
.......
9th = 17pp

Basically I don't have a complete explanation on the site yet because I haven't decided how I'd like the pp progression to go yet.

[Real Sorceror]

Bump

Hey, where you guys still interested in this project? I haven't made too many updates for a while, to be honest, but I don't have planes to abandon it any time soon.