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Seatbelt
2009-10-22, 01:03 AM
My player wants one. He priced it out at 5,600 gp. I don't want to give it to him.

Little backstory: I'm running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft for 8 people. (I have added monsters and adjusted feats to make encounters more challenging). The party has a
Homebrew'd Monk with VOP (He only gets 5 bonus feats from VOP but they can be anything, full BAB, D10 HD although I think the player forgets that, and flurry as a standard and not a full),
A Cleric/Radiant Servant with the destroy undead alternate of Turn Undead, a warmage,
a (useless) bard,
a Cleric/Fighter/Knight of the Raven,
A warlock
and a big dumb orc with monkeygrip and a preposterously large sword.

The party has a pretty substantial direct damage/destroying undead capability. Given that Ravenloft is full of Undead, and Strahd is undead, and his vampire friends are undead.. I'm afraid that a continuous gravestrike item in the hands of someone with full sneak attack and a respectable to-hit could hurt the precarious campaign balance. I also think an item that allows a rogue to sneak attack all day long should be way more expensive than 5,600gp. I know continuous truestrike is only like 10K and that's clearly not balanced. But I don't want to be unfair to the player but I also have no talent for homebrew. I was hoping the playground had some thought on the matter?

ex cathedra
2009-10-22, 01:12 AM
This confuses me. You're afraid of a character using their main class feature continuously? If anything, I would be sure that the character had the item. Without it, a rogue loses most of his combat prowess, and he would probably be outshined by Radiant Servant, Knight of the Raven, the orc, and perhaps the monk.

Without gravestrike, I doubt that he would do well at all in combat. Do you disagree?

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 01:13 AM
There are no custom items. Problem solved. Just tell him to get a Wand of Gravestrike; it's a swift action to use so it's plenty usable. Alternatively, there are Greater Truedeath Crystals in Magic Item Compendium that enable just that. Given the means exist to do this by the rules, I don't see why you'd need to give him a custom item.

That said, SA isn't gonna break anything. Honestly. It's just a way for Rogue to deal damage at his medium BAB.

Zaydos
2009-10-22, 01:20 AM
1st: Grave Strike is a Lv 1 spell with a duration of 1 round; a continuous item of a 1 round duration spell has 4 times normal cost so it would be 2000 x 4 x 1 (spell level) x 1 (minimum caster level) = 8000 GP by RAW.

As for the rest there is a greater weapon crystal in the Magic Item Compendium that can be put in any +3 or better weapon which grants this and other nice benefits (including a flat damage bonus vs undead, and the effects of two lesser versions that are 1,000 and 5,000 GP each) for 10,000 GP. Because the spell is a swift action for a 1st level spell slot so the continuous price could even be dropped to lower. So I'd say somewhere from 5,000 to 10,000 would probably be a fair price.

Edit: Partially ninja'd

BobVosh
2009-10-22, 01:28 AM
Or just point out the thing from...dungeonscape I believe, that allows rogues to do 1/2 sneak attack on things normally immune.

More over, it is 8000 as mentioned above. (same as true strike, not 10k)

Also those are guidelines: not firm rules. Don't allow if you don't like it.

I'm guessing 6th level ish, as I believe that is the level for ETCR. That is 3D6 sneak attack. 10.5 damage per hit extra. Not really that threating, considering they have to have several extras to use SA still. If you are worried about Big Vamp S give him blur. Then they can't SA him, while taking out minions is easy.

sadi
2009-10-22, 01:42 AM
What he wants is the augment crystal of true death, the greater version. Augment crystals are supposed to be "cheap method of improving weapons and armor" per the sidebar on 221 of the MIC. It's not RAW, but I'd say an item that does the same thing that's not on a +3 weapon would cost 25-50% more than the 10,000.

The answer is you're the person running, you have the right to allow or deny anything you want in the game. It's that simple, you have final say in all decisions.

sadi
2009-10-22, 02:02 AM
Regarding true strike, items that just grant a flat bonus are calculated differently than regular duration-based pricing...ie, a continuous mage armor item (+4 ac) would only be...what, 3000 gold, instead of 16,000? A permanent +20 to your attack would certainly be a wee bit pricier than 8,000 gold.



No, it'd be 2,000 instead of the 16,000 for bracers, caster level x spell level x 2,000* (1x1x1 since it is a hour/level duration) which is the main reason that crafting custom items for something that already exists even if in another form has some major issues.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-22, 05:36 AM
My player wants one. He priced it out at 5,600 gp. I don't want to give it to him.
IMO the swift single round spells are special cases anyway, not suited to normal pricing guidelines ... those kind of spells didn't even exist when the guidelines were being written.

I know continuous truestrike is only like 10K and that's clearly not balanced.
True strike can fundamentally not be continuous, it needs to be repeating to do anything useful ... if it just has a continuous duration it will still only go off once.

Anyway, that said ... a rogue of sufficient level can simply put a wand sheath in one of his weapons and UMD wands of grave strike all day long ...

Myou
2009-10-22, 05:40 AM
I'd be more worried about the radiant servant than the rogue. Sneak attack is the only way rogues can be effective in combat, so unless you want your player to feel bored and useless just give him the item.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-22, 05:42 AM
Personally I'd give him the wand sheath instead, or at least a command word item instead of a continuous item ... the single round swift buffs aren't balanced if you don't have to spend the swift action.

Akisa
2009-10-22, 06:16 AM
Wow you're worrying about sneak attack undead when you have a Radiant Servant? Just give him the item, you lost all sense of balance when you allowed Radiant Servant in undead heavy campaign.

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-22, 06:24 AM
1. Continuous True Strike is useless, what you would want is use activated True Strike with an activation conditional like "The weapon is worn or carried by a creature with an Int score this round).

2. Technically the magic item creation rules are just guidelines.

The funniest part though is that the only custom magic items that you can make by RAW are also the most broken. The magical trap rules are specifically rules and not guidelines. Making it perfectly legal to make traps that do things like cast wish to wish up 25,000 GP every round.

Or even better, you make a wish trap that grants a +1 inherent bonus to a stat every round. Stand in it for 5 rounds and you gain the same benefit as a +5 tome. Just get 1 for every stat. Just run all of your people through them and they pay off pretty quick.

shadow_archmagi
2009-10-22, 06:35 AM
Okay, okay letsee, what is this... your party is:

1. Guy whose entire class is designed around light and positive energy (perfect for undead hunting)
2. Warmage who is going to deal lots of damage
3. Some melee guys
4. A character whose only combat-related class feature cannot function at all whatsoever for the entire campaign.


So, explain to me why being able to sneak attack undead in an undead-heavy campaign is overpowered, but being able to sneak attack humans in a human-heavy campaign isn't? It's the same DPS against enemies with roughly the same number of hitpoints (actually I think undead tend to have MORE hp, so a few bonus DPS isn't going to hurt them as much).

If I were DMing this I'd make sure to give this to the party at some point (I'm not sure if I'd have an NPC go "It is dangerous to go alone! (or in groups of 8!) Take this!" and give him a fancy gemstone, or just have them kill some lesser necromancer and find a scroll with undead anatomy on it so that the rogue can study it and learn the vital organs he needs to strike at.

BobVosh
2009-10-22, 06:49 AM
If you still are really against it....have one minion drop an eternal wand of gravestrike.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 07:24 AM
Wow you're worrying about sneak attack undead when you have a Radiant Servant? Just give him the item, you lost all sense of balance when you allowed Radiant Servant in undead heavy campaign.

This. In an undead heavy campaign, of *course* the rogue will want to sneak attack them. Without that, his core damage dealing ability is essentially worthless.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 09:00 AM
If you're so worried about it, give the plot-relevant enemies the Unholy Toughness Su ability from MM3. Then they get Cha to HP, and the Rogue's Sneak Attack won't kill them so fast.



BTW, Sneak Attack being always on isn't a bad thing. There's much worse that could happen. Much, much worse. In fact, Sneak Attack being shut off constantly (which it appears to be in this particular campaign) is a bad idea on your part. The Rogue feels worthless in combat situations, while the rest of the party doesn't even notice.

Seatbelt
2009-10-22, 10:02 AM
I'm not worried about the Radiant Servant. It hasn't been a problem yet. But point taken about allowing RSoP and then worrying about the Rogue. Thanks all. :)

Myou
2009-10-22, 10:10 AM
I'm not worried about the Radiant Servant. It hasn't been a problem yet. But point taken about allowing RSoP and then worrying about the Rogue. Thanks all. :)

Well, put it this way, one good turn check and the radiant servant will end an entire encounter. And he can probably make about 10 turn checks a day.

The non-gestalt NPC sword-and-board radiant servant in my ravenloft game was far, far more effective than anyone else, and the party were optimised gestalts a level higher than him. If Strahd hadn't had turn resistance he would have died instantly.

Just to warn you.

Killer Angel
2009-10-22, 10:18 AM
I'm not worried about the Radiant Servant.

You should.
Anyway, an idea for your item of continuous gravestrike, you could try to render it a weapon enchantment, worth a +1 (or not more than a +2).

Seatbelt
2009-10-22, 10:20 AM
His turning just does straight damage. He rolls 1D6 per cleric level with a will save of 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cha + bonuses. The mooks take a bunch of damage but they've already come up against a boss monster and his turning wasn't that useful. I gave the thing positive energy resistance, but even without that he was only averaging 10 or 12 damage a round - the monster had pretty good will saves. Its like he has fireball 10 times a day. Oh noes!

lyko555
2009-10-22, 10:29 AM
Uh actually theres a weapon enchant that already does this.
Its called Ghoststrike (p35 magic item compendium) its a +1 enchant that lets you sneak attack and crit undead normaly it requires you to have ghost touch on your weapon as well so +2 overall for his weapon.
there problem solved :)

jiriku
2009-10-22, 10:36 AM
Somewhere in the region of 6-8k is a reasonable price for his item, but you should steer him towards the greater truedeath augment crystal, if he can afford it.

In general, in a mixed group with casters and noncasters, you can be very liberal about giving out gear candy to the noncasters without impacting game balance.

lyko555
2009-10-22, 10:42 AM
dmg states 8k for a +2 enchant

Aldizog
2009-10-22, 10:43 AM
Slightly OT, but why is the bard useless?

In a party of 8 at level 8 (a guess from the 5 bonus feats for VoP), that Inspire Courage should let him (indirectly) more than pull his weight in damage output. Even at +2/+2, and Inspirational Boost is pretty much a no-brainer to make it +3/+3. Does he also have Haste? With two actions he should more than *double* the party's damage output. There's also the bonus vs. fear, the other bard songs, other spells, attacks, skills, and Bardic Knowledge. The bard should be an awesome character in this party.

Tyger
2009-10-22, 11:19 AM
Please, for the love of cabbage, let this poor bugger have it. Set a price that makes sense to you, but let him have it. We ran the adventure a few years ago. Our group only plays once a month, so it took us over a year to get through it all. In that entire time, our Scout managed to get in one or maybe two instances of precision damage... it was painful to watch. His entire schtick was tossed aside while the wizard laid down control, the lycan ranger smacked ****e around, the monk... well, was a monk. But the poor Scout... it was sad.

Myou
2009-10-22, 11:20 AM
His turning just does straight damage. He rolls 1D6 per cleric level with a will save of 10 + 1/2 cleric level + cha + bonuses. The mooks take a bunch of damage but they've already come up against a boss monster and his turning wasn't that useful. I gave the thing positive energy resistance, but even without that he was only averaging 10 or 12 damage a round - the monster had pretty good will saves. Its like he has fireball 10 times a day. Oh noes!

Save your sarcasm for when you're actually right. That's not how the radiant servant works. We're trying to help you. :smallannoyed:

Greater Turning, the turning ability of the radiant servant, is described here; http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Domain

It does not do 1d6 damage per cleric level, it instantly destroys any undead it affects.

If you've disregarded the rule and made up something totally different then it might be wise to mention that.

tyckspoon
2009-10-22, 11:27 AM
That's not how the radiant servant works. :smallannoyed:

Greater Turning is described here; http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Domain

It does not do 1d6 damage per cleric level, it instantly destroys any undead it affects.

It's not how normal turning works either; variant rules are in play. That said, I'd like to know how Greater Turning was folded into the damage variant. Enemies that fail their save are destroyed, as per normal Greater Turning? Or maybe just increase the damage done? 2d6 per level would make it an ally-friendly AoE Disintegrate, which is pretty useful. Would be more useful if it didn't target Will.

wormwood
2009-10-22, 11:38 AM
Save your sarcasm for when you're actually right. That's not how the radiant servant works. We're trying to help you. :smallannoyed:

Greater Turning, the turning ability of the radiant servant, is described here; http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sun_Domain

It does not do 1d6 damage per cleric level, it instantly destroys any undead it affects.

If you've disregarded the rule and made up something totally different then it might be wise to mention that.

He DID mention that... in his first post, no less.


A Cleric/Radiant Servant with the destroy undead alternate of Turn Undead

Myou
2009-10-22, 11:54 AM
He DID mention that... in his first post, no less.

Under that varient they should still be destroyed. That's the whole point of Greater Turning.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 12:28 PM
BTW, Sneak Attack being always on isn't a bad thing. There's much worse that could happen. Much, much worse.

Is that even an argument?

"Yeah, officer, I only stole their stuff. I mean, I could have raped and tortured them, but I didn't. So I shouldn't be charged with anything, right?"

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 12:37 PM
Why can't melee have nice things?

On the Radiant Servant topic...Im not terribly familiar with them, but I would not expect a "destroy undead" alternate system to change abilities that already destroy undead to ones that do not.

Myou
2009-10-22, 01:17 PM
Why can't melee have nice things?

On the Radiant Servant topic...Im not terribly familiar with them, but I would not expect a "destroy undead" alternate system to change abilities that already destroy undead to ones that do not.

Exactly. :smallsigh:

Flayerman
2009-10-22, 01:39 PM
Scrubbed for sanity's sake.

Quietus
2009-10-22, 02:09 PM
To retread what's been said already;

Why on earth would you allow a Radiant Servant of Pelor with the ability to simply snuff undead from existence into a Ravenloft campaign and then give snarky responses to people telling you the rogue's damage isn't even going to matter in comparison?!

Because it doesn't do that, it does area-effect d6's of damage, due to a variant being used.

Myou
2009-10-22, 03:23 PM
Because it doesn't do that, it does area-effect d6's of damage, due to a variant being used.

Greater Turning is not Turn Undead. :smallsigh:

Otodetu
2009-10-22, 03:32 PM
I sense anger brewing in this thread.

Myou
2009-10-22, 03:50 PM
I sense anger brewing in this thread.

More weariness. xD

Seatbelt
2009-10-22, 04:50 PM
Wow I didnt mean to stimulate all the hate. Sorry. I wasn't trying to be snarky or sarcastic either. :(

I told this player that most of the monsters were undead and his suggestion was this item. Given that I have no experience dealing with magic items in a way that is'int monty haul I thought I would ask the playground. It sounded reasonable to me for him to have some kind of something that let him sneak attack undead, I just wanted to make sure that the ability to sneak attack undead as a constant affect was reasonable and fair for 5-8K gold pieces. To me it sounded extremely strong. But you guys made some good arguments and I'll let him have something.

I can deal with the assorted player classes. My optimization foo is better than theirs. I'm not worried about the radiant servant too much. I do appreciate the concern though and I'll have another look at the class to make sure I didn't miss anything.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-22, 05:03 PM
A TWF rogue won't deal out that much damage anyway, he'll miss often enough.

Myou
2009-10-22, 05:13 PM
Wow I didnt mean to stimulate all the hate. Sorry. I wasn't trying to be snarky or sarcastic either. :(

Then I'm sorry for taking your comments the wrong way. :smallsmile:


I told this player that most of the monsters were undead and his suggestion was this item. Given that I have no experience dealing with magic items in a way that is'int monty haul I thought I would ask the playground. It sounded reasonable to me for him to have some kind of something that let him sneak attack undead, I just wanted to make sure that the ability to sneak attack undead as a constant affect was reasonable and fair for 5-8K gold pieces. To me it sounded extremely strong. But you guys made some good arguments and I'll let him have something.

I can deal with the assorted player classes. My optimization foo is better than theirs. I'm not worried about the radiant servant too much. I do appreciate the concern though and I'll have another look at the class to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Then we're glad to be able to help. ^^

Curmudgeon
2009-10-22, 05:57 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what seems to me to be the obvious solution here: the Death's Ruin alternative class feature (Complete Champion, page 51). The Rogue trades trap sense for the ability to sneak attack undead normally.

Bypasses all arguments about custom magic items.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 06:00 PM
Deals half damage and is unnecessarily weak in this context.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-22, 06:09 PM
Deals half damage and is unnecessarily weak in this context.
That's not quite true; you're describing how Penetrating Stike works (half normal sneak attack damage). Death's Ruin is somewhat different, as you roll only half the normal sneak damage dice. Craven (which is the sine qua non of Rogue feats, so I thought it went without saying that it would be taken) bonus damage is added without reduction. With Death's Ruin and Craven together you're dealing 68% of the sneak attack damage you would normally inflict, plus 100% of the weapon damage and STR bonus.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 06:14 PM
Craven (which is the sine qua non of Rogue feats, so I thought it went without saying that it would be taken)
And I misread Craven once again. Thought it was based on dice rather than level. >_<

Craven+Death's Ruin would compete with Permanent Gravestrike + no craven for damage. Indeed, you could look at it for a full-RAW rogue "solution".

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 07:31 PM
Beguiler can contribute in-combat through illusions. Rogue can contribute in-combat only through sneak attack, and consequently needs to remain competent in combat.

Death's Ruin/Craven could do that well enough, though.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 07:37 PM
Is that even an argument?

"Yeah, officer, I only stole their stuff. I mean, I could have raped and tortured them, but I didn't. So I shouldn't be charged with anything, right?"

What harm does sneak attack for 11d6 on every attack do? An average of 38.5 extra damage on attacks. Assuming TWFing, a Rogue can get a bonus of 192.5 damage (assuming they aren't Daring Outlaws and have Full BAB).

A Leap Attacking/Shock Trooper Fighter can dish out 400 damage per attack. A Stormsurge Warblade can get upwards of 600 damage every round (using Stormguard Warrior). A nova Psion build can get 500 damage easily.

This is HP damage. There are ways to prevent it, and it is not a bad thing to allow the players to do such large amounts of damage (after all, killing things is half of being an adventurer).

Or they could be doing things like chain-Gating in Djinns. Or the Druid could take Planar Shepherd levels and completely wreck the campaign. Or any other game breaker.


The point is, Sneak Attack being always on isn't a game breaker. It's a damage booster (easily negated by a single casting of Obscuring Mist, BTW). The real game breakers are not damage dealers (save for the occasional oddball TO build like the Hulking Hurler). There's nothing Theoretical about Sneak Attack being always on; it's a very realistic and practical goal for any combat-oriented Rogue in a combat-oriented campaign (like Expedition to Castle Ravenloft).