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View Full Version : [3.5] Building an Eldritch Disciple



Valairn
2009-10-22, 09:06 AM
I'm playing a campaign where i only have one other party member, and he's taken the role of a battlefield controller melee. I was planning backing him up with a kind of damage dealing buff style player.

My build would look something like... Warlock 1/Cleric 3/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Some prestige class

I don't imagine the campain getting past level 12 or 13 though.

I get an ability that allows me to cast a spell while using an eldritch blast as long as its a single target or touch spell.

I also can use a turn attempt to turn my eldritch blast into a heal.

Are there any spells I should be looking for in particular to add to the damage of my eldritch blast when combined. And also to make me do a good amount of damage with the eldritch glaive?

Thanks for any help provided!

Tavar
2009-10-22, 09:19 AM
Divine power=Full BaB. I think the rest is self explanatory.

Valairn
2009-10-22, 09:45 AM
Well if I want to make divine power really effective, I need to pick up the persistent/divine metamagic feats. That's 3 feats. Is extra turning attempts worth it at this point?

What other feats should I consider?

Obviously I'll pick up some items that increase eldritch blast damage. I'm primarily a damage dealer at this point, but I'm surprisingly unmobile.

Divine power isn't the whole build.

ErrantX
2009-10-22, 10:19 AM
Well if I want to make divine power really effective, I need to pick up the persistent/divine metamagic feats. That's 3 feats. Is extra turning attempts worth it at this point?

What other feats should I consider?

Obviously I'll pick up some items that increase eldritch blast damage. I'm primarily a damage dealer at this point, but I'm surprisingly unmobile.

Divine power isn't the whole build.

If your DM is allowing DMM: Persist (a lot do not), then if it's worth it to you, yes do it. It's good for more than just Divine Power. Good for all day buffs. Extra Turning becomes very important as well, as you will burn a nightmarish amount of turn undead attempts (see also: nightsticks from Libris Mortis, consider Craft Rod if you can). Also look into Eldritch Glaive as an invocation, as for an unmobile character, having a reach weapon that uses your eldritch blast damage is pretty nice.

-X

Valairn
2009-10-22, 10:27 AM
I'll probably be allowed Divine Metamagic, but I can guess I won't be allowed nightsticks. I could definitely use a rod, simply because some of my class abilities require turn undead.

I was already planning on picking up eldritch glaive. So now I'm just more concerned with making sure my build actually works as intended.

Thanks for the help.

ErrantX
2009-10-22, 10:36 AM
I'll probably be allowed Divine Metamagic, but I can guess I won't be allowed nightsticks. I could definitely use a rod, simply because some of my class abilities require turn undead.

I was already planning on picking up eldritch glaive. So now I'm just more concerned with making sure my build actually works as intended.

Thanks for the help.

I'm sure it will do fine. You're losing 1 cleric CL for a bunch of warlock ability, that's nothing to sneeze at. Unlimited dispel magic, dimension door, flight, a decent weapon, it's really a decent option for warlocks.

-X

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-22, 10:46 AM
I'm sure it will do fine. You're losing 1 cleric CL for a bunch of warlock ability, that's nothing to sneeze at. Unlimited dispel magic, dimension door, flight, a decent weapon, it's really a decent option for warlocks.

-X

Not to mention nifty things like:

"Oh yea, what are ya gonna do about it, puny little freak?"

"This." Eldritch Blast + Chain Blast + Heal, and all undead get pwned "Want some more? Come on, that's an at-will Spell-Like Ability. I can do this every round, all day long. Now then, you want to move the boop out of my way, or am I just going to re-introduce you to whatever afterlife you were trying to cheat your way out of?" One bluff check later (because Bluff is a class skill for 'locks), and they ran away.

Some builds have to use Intimidate checks to produce this effect. Eldritch Disciples simply are that damn fun.

Tavar
2009-10-22, 10:49 AM
Technically, you're loosing 2 CL(first level doesn't advance Cleric). Still, on the whole, I agree.

ErrantX
2009-10-22, 10:55 AM
Technically, you're loosing 2 CL(first level doesn't advance Cleric). Still, on the whole, I agree.

Practiced Spellcaster, done!

-X

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-22, 11:01 AM
Practiced Spellcaster, done!

-X

Still doesn't change the fact that you're getting spells two levels later. Delayed Caster Progression sucks.

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-22, 12:26 PM
Still doesn't change the fact that you're getting spells two levels later. Delayed Caster Progression sucks.

That's quite debatable. What you're losing in spell availability you (sorta) recover on at-will spell-like abilities that can compliment the Cleric's power. Most notably, Fell Flight and Walk Unseen are two nifty spells if you take the chance to get them (flight and invisibility, which you can use as much as you desire); later on you might consider getting Voracious Dispelling and Devour Magic. While the last two have a slight trouble as they grow (you'll have Cleric CL up to your caster level but your Warlock effective CL would remain at 11), getting spells that aren't so dependant on class level are worthwhile.

Most of the warlock's spell-like invocations (not essences or blast shapes) are of a debuffing nature, and it allows the Cleric to prepare other spells, or to a point enhances the spell choices. It's pretty advantageous that most of those spell-like abilities have a 24-hour duration, so they are always available. Walk Unseen is a pretty nifty boon since you can pretty much lob as many buffs as you can given the wording of Invisibility spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) (just make sure you don't target a foe; spells that only affect allies even if foes are on the AoE are legal for that purpose). This is great for a sneaky strike, near-careless buffing, and so on. Furthermore, since you can use it at-will, it makes little sense if that effect gets dispelled or not (though it does hurt if your Cleric-based buffs get dispelled)

In the case of chain-Healing, well...that's not possible. What you can is chain an essence invocation to your spell, not a spell to your eldritch blast (that's only for Eldritch Theurges, sadly), and it only applies to one creature. It's worthwhile if you somehow get Dark Invocations and Utterdark Blast (for two negative levels on each attack), or Vitriolic Blast (just make sure the creature is not immune to acid; you can bypass spell resistance with this) Finally, if you can stack fear effects somehow, Frightening Blast is a good method to kick-start up to cowering (you need something else to up the fear effect)

If your character has a chaotic good deity, you can get healing blast though: that can be combined with Eldritch Chain to either heal nearly all of your characters or pew pew undead. Corrupting blast is pretty good, as well: you can give them up to a -5 penalty on Will saves, enough to slap a curse or do something even worse.

So I wouldn't say that being an Eldritch Disciple is a bad trade for 2 CL and delaying your spell level progression. Furthermore, the way the OP (the rest of the uses of you are "royal you") entered is pretty much the best way to enter: it's comparable to controlled entry into Ultimate Magus because you (again, royal) aren't using your sorcerer spells for anything else other than to boost your wizard spells. It's not 100% comparable, but it is comparable in the sense that it's a valuable enhancement to Cleric: it expands the Cleric's options in exchange for less spell slots. At the very best, it saves you on a lot of stuff (a flying method, a method to get invisibility, investing in Hide which isn't a bad idea nonetheless, a conditional and alignment-dependant way to save money on wands of CLW and Lesser Vigor, amongst others). At the very worst, it implies that you (again, royal you) need to think better which spells to get, since you aren't going to get that much compared to a pure Cleric (one less 5th, 7th and 8th spell and two less 9th level spells).

Wings of Peace
2009-10-22, 01:20 PM
I'm AFB and the days since I had the combo memorized have long since passed but if you decide to go the fairly evil route Warlock 7/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 8/Hellfire Warlock 3 will hold you well. Remember, Ur-Priest allows no previous Divine Caster levels. You can still worship for any necessary components of ED even if it's just a dead god of some kind. If your DM is open to the interpretation that Warlocks are arcane casters on a minimal level I'd also dip Mindbender and take the Mindsight feat. But for most campaigns that is probably overkill.

jiriku
2009-10-22, 01:35 PM
The 3rd-level cleric spell ice axe lets you make melee touch attacks, which should nicely improve the accuracy of eldritch glaive.

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-22, 02:09 PM
If your DM is open to the interpretation that Warlocks are arcane casters on a minimal level I'd also dip Mindbender and take the Mindsight feat. But for most campaigns that is probably overkill.

Not to say a DM couldn't rule zero anything, but aren't the Complete Arcane requirements for Mindbender written in a manner ideal for warlocks? It does explicitly specify in the text that the Charm invocation fulfills the Charm requirement, and Warlocks are arcane casters with caster levels equal to class level. No shenanigans are necessary for this reading, at all. I can't see a reasonable DM ever saying that Warlocks weren't intended to be able to take this class based on how it's presented in Complete Arcane. :smallsmile:

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-22, 02:52 PM
The 3rd-level cleric spell ice axe lets you make melee touch attacks, which should nicely improve the accuracy of eldritch glaive.

Uh...if what Dragon Magic says is right, you don't need the Ice Axe spell at all. It's much better with Hideous Blow, as it is a blast shape invocation that affects a weapon; mix with Brimstone Blast, or Vitriolic Blast to change the element of the attack to one that's more favorable, or Hellrime Blast to make the attack full cold damage + grant a Dexterity penalty.

Eldritch Glaive works superbly with Divine Power, as it allows full iterative attacks with the weapon, reach, and huge amounts of damage per hit. Furthermore, you can use the earlier-mentioned essence invocations to really boost things up.

Speaking of Dragon Magic...how would Eldritch Disciple work with Dragonfire Adept? It's a legal entry (it requires only lesser invocations, 2nd level spells and turn undead, which a Cleric 3/DFA 1 gets access to pretty easily), so aside from the dual increase in invocations and spells, how would some of the gifts react? I say this because this would make Eldritch Spellweave pretty much useless (breath effects =/= essence invocations, though they're mighty similar), and some abilities affect Eldritch Blast (Corrupting Blast, Healing Blast, Wild Frenzy). Would it be reasonable to consider your breath weapon as if Eldritch Blast, and your breath effects as essence invocations for purposes of the above-mentioned effects? It's a shame that Complete Mage and Dragon Magic didn't manage to synergize, since that would have strengthened Dragonfire Adepts a lot more.

It also sucks that only Warlocks can enter Eldritch Theurge, as it strictly requires Eldritch Blast. Had it accepted the breath weapon from DFA or lesser invocations, it would allow Wizards and Sorcerers to dabble into DFA and work something out...

Wings of Peace
2009-10-22, 03:00 PM
Not to say a DM couldn't rule zero anything, but aren't the Complete Arcane requirements for Mindbender written in a manner ideal for warlocks? It does explicitly specify in the text that the Charm invocation fulfills the Charm requirement, and Warlocks are arcane casters with caster levels equal to class level. No shenanigans are necessary for this reading, at all. I can't see a reasonable DM ever saying that Warlocks weren't intended to be able to take this class based on how it's presented in Complete Arcane. :smallsmile:

It is. But I've met enough players and dms unaware of the Warlocks interaction with Arcane prcs that I just as a habit treat it as a variant rather than rule of thumb.

deuxhero
2009-10-22, 05:02 PM
Glaivelock sounds pretty good when you have access to divine power.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 05:03 PM
Yeah, I would have that Mindsight would be the part of that combination that would run into the most resistance...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-22, 05:20 PM
...a lot of really cool stuff about the cost-effectiveness of the PrC...

You miss my point. My point is not 'thou shalt not loose caster levels', it is pointing out that Practiced Spellcaster does not give you the lost spell levels, just effective caster level.

I happen to agree that ED is a fun PrC with a lot of flavor and potential.

Mindbender dip for Mindsight is interesting. Would be worth it, anyways. Come to think of it, DFA can do it too.