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Optimystik
2009-10-22, 09:22 AM
I've been reading up on this class in CA and it seems to be an interesting alternative to the Wizard. I know it's not as powerful due to the limited spell list (and it doesn't even get the Beguiler's "hey-I-learned-a-spell-from-your-list!" ability) but the advantages seem to be good nonetheless. For those not familiar with the class, I'll make a brief list:


Plenty of the better wizard spells (The teleport line, polymorph line, gate, time stop, wish etc.) Maybe she doesn't need the Beguiler's ability?
Free metamagic feat at level 1 (although you probably won't be using metamagic that early :smalltongue:)
Spell secrets let you permanently and automatically add a free metamagic from the following list to any spell 3rd level - Enlarge, Extend, Still, Silent. Having an always-on Still+Silent Teleport can be useful if you get tied up and gagged somewhere.
ALL the knowledge skills - Coupled with your int bonus, you can be the party loremaster even more easily than a wizard.
Can reroll initiative once per day - handy.
Prepares spells, so can qualify for nice PrCs that require prepared (e.g. wizard or archivist) casting.
Starts with all their cantrips like wizards do (yay prestidigitation!)


And then, there are the disadvantages.


More limited spell selection than a pure wizard.
Less bonus Metamagic feats.
Not as many PrCs open to them (I don't know offhand which ones, though.)
The taboos, which basically say "the DM gets to screw with you"; at least that's what they say to me.


Now that I covered the basics, I wanted to know:


Is there a Wu Jen guide/handbook somewhere I can look through?
For those of you that played the class, which taboos did you pick to minimize the chance of getting messed with by the DM? (I thought of "cannot sit without crossing legs" as I'd have less a chance of violating that one by accident, but I'm sure some of you have come up with better ones.)
Which element is the best one to specialize in?
What is your overall opinion of the class?


Thanks in advance for any replies :smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-22, 09:34 AM
You're missing something crucial.

Teleport doesn't have any somatic components.

So basically, you only need to add Silent Spell to it to make it a merely mental action.

Cyclocone
2009-10-22, 09:37 AM
You might want to look at CMag as well, the Wu Jen gets some lovin' there too.
Especially the Elemental Adept feat for spontaneous Telekinesis; cue Jean Grey (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/Xmens_Jean_Grey_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH).

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 09:43 AM
You're missing something crucial.

Teleport doesn't have any somatic components.

So basically, you only need to add Silent Spell to it to make it a merely mental action.

Thanks for the correction.


You might want to look at CMag as well, the Wu Jen gets some lovin' there too.
Especially the Elemental Adept feat for spontaneous Telekinesis; cue Jean Grey (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/Xmens_Jean_Grey_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH).

I was planning to read that for more Wu Jen goodness, but haven't gotten around to it yet. (That is, I've read it, but not with a Wu Jen focus in mind.)



So... about my questions?

Grumman
2009-10-22, 09:55 AM
For those of you that played the class, which taboos did you pick to minimize the chance of getting messed with by the DM? (I thought of "cannot sit without crossing legs" as I'd have less a chance of violating that one by accident, but I'm sure some of you have come up with better ones.)
I didn't end up getting to use the character, but the two I picked for Ashley Dennisson (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=7158) were not drinking alcohol and not owning more than she could carry.


What is your overall opinion of the class?
I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.

Douglas
2009-10-22, 10:18 AM
I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.
Speaking of which... *points at sig (you want the Team Solars link)*



ALL the knowledge skills - Coupled with your int bonus, you can be the party loremaster even more easily than a wizard.

Wizards get all knowledge skills too, so unless I'm misremembering and Wu Jen get more than 2 base skill points per level this one's just equal to a Wizard.

Overall I think it's a decent class but its spell list misses out on a lot of the versatility and many of the more powerful spells on the Wizard list. It has a few unique things that only Wu Jen can do (see the Body Outside Body thing above) and can be a decently powerful class, but unless you're abusing a particular Wu Jen only spell it's not usually useful for high optimization. Of course, most DMs would take one look at something like Team Solars and instantly ban the entire party, so that's not necessarily a bad thing...

Glimbur
2009-10-22, 10:48 AM
I recommend Metal specialization. I'm not sure it's the most powerful, but it will help you with all the silly scarf spells. If they didn't require regular attack rolls and were instead touch attacks they might even be useful instead of just stylish.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 11:33 AM
Not as many PrCs open to them (I don't know offhand which ones, though.)

No, actually other than Planar Binding requiring spells Prcs, they qualify for 85% of all Prcs that a Wizard can.

The class has useful spells like Snake Darts (4th level, auto hit, 3d6 damage per dart, you get 2). Each deals damage and 1d6 Con poison (Fort dave for now and 1 minute later).

I've killed Hydras and Fire Giants with it.

Drawback, you can't effectively cast it more than 1 battle due to need to waste an action to reswallow the snake. I have no clue why the limitation.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 12:31 PM
I'm a big fan of Gishy builds that include Wu Jen 6 and Incantatrix 3. You get the necessary metamagic feat at first level, and Iron Will costs just 3,000 gp with the Otyugh Den special location. In exchange you get to create Body Outside Body clones that can help you abuse cooperative metamagic, and you can Persist them, giving you expendible minions that last all day.

Ignoring the noticeable smell of gouda that accompanies Incantatrix... how is that a gish build? It seems like it would be a pure caster to me. Neither Wu Jen nor 'Trix gain anything on their own that can benefit melee. Or am I missing something?



Wizards get all knowledge skills too, so unless I'm misremembering and Wu Jen get more than 2 base skill points per level this one's just equal to a Wizard.

Oh good point, I misread the Sorcerer entry on the SRD as being Wizard and thought they only got Arcana. But Wu Jen do have a slight advantage even so; they get Giant as a bonus language in addition to Draconic, putting them one bonus language ahead of Wizards.


Overall I think it's a decent class but its spell list misses out on a lot of the versatility and many of the more powerful spells on the Wizard list. It has a few unique things that only Wu Jen can do (see the Body Outside Body thing above) and can be a decently powerful class, but unless you're abusing a particular Wu Jen only spell it's not usually useful for high optimization. Of course, most DMs would take one look at something like Team Solars and instantly ban the entire party, so that's not necessarily a bad thing...

This is a fair assessment. I didn't expect it to dethrone (or even come close to dethroning) the vaunted Wizard, but how does it stack up compared to the other base classes? Say, the Warmage, Sorcerer, or Psion? What tier is it in? I'd assume not as high as a Sorc or Psion, since WJ gets less love from splat books, but how much less?

Adumbration
2009-10-22, 01:29 PM
A honorary mention for the Wu Jen has to be the 9th level spell from CMage, Arboreal transformation. Is it on par with other 9th level spell? No. Is it cool? Yes.

Turning your enemy's mook into a treant? Priceless.

hamishspence
2009-10-22, 01:35 PM
Spell Compendium recommends adding element spells (not air) wood spells, and Metal spells, to the Wu Jen list.

So, if the DM is generous, the list can receive a hefty boost.

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-22, 01:56 PM
The best trick I've seen performed with Wu Jen comes at high levels - Wu Jen 8-9/Elemental Adept(Air) 10 makes your Wu Jen an Air Elemental, complete with whirlwind. Couple that with the 7th level Wu Jen spell Giant Size, and then use Whirlwind, and you have a Colossal-sized Whirlwind - A sentient tornado! It helps that the whirlwind attacks are all based off Con, and that Giant size boosts Con...

Basically, you can rip a Purple Wurm out of the ground and throw it. It can lay a world of hurt on flying creatures, too.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 02:01 PM
I just wish their was a spontaneous version of Wu Jen. I hate prepped casting. :smallfrown:

RagnaroksChosen
2009-10-22, 02:31 PM
Water is my favorite a lot of ability dmg specifically with con.

I found that reach spell(taken as bonus) at first with easy metamagic is nice.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-22, 02:54 PM
I've used Wu Jen to make a gish, as well. The general idea is that Giant Size gets silly, especially on clones from Body Outside Body. Requires using Archmage to get that as an SLA so the clones can use it, but eh.

Basic build went something like Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen1/Human Paragon+2/Wu Jen+2/Eldritch Knight 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2. Grabbing Transcend Mortality and Giant Size for the clones. Prereqs are a bit of a hassle, admittedly.

Woodsman
2009-10-22, 03:02 PM
Transcend Mortality from Complete Mage is a pretty sweet Wu Jen-only spell, except you die when it's over.

Duration 1 round/level
It's effects include:
DR 30/ Epic
SR 21 + CL (Min. 38)
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, and Sonic 50
Immune to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, and death effects
+10 Bonus to all saving throws
No need to eat, drink, or breathe

You can be resurrected, but you still die, which does suck. The no "eating, drinking, and breathing" thing is kind of pointless too, except the breathing part.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 03:03 PM
Can't you Revenance/Revivify or somesuch? Makes the material component an expensive 1000 gp, but for that sort of buff...

Woodsman
2009-10-22, 03:09 PM
Can't you Revenance/Revivify or somesuch? Makes the material component an expensive 1000 gp, but for that sort of buff...

Nope. You disintegrate into ash, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by Revivify.

Edit: Both of those spells function as Raise Dead, which doesn't work on disintegrated bodies.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-22, 03:16 PM
Which is why it's on the clones as an SLA. Actually having to use Transcend Mortality yourself would be bad. Admittedly, it is kind of a waste to burn a 9th level spell slot to get it as an SLA for the clones.

Douglas
2009-10-22, 03:16 PM
Take Arcane Disciple for the Spite domain and cast Pact of Return from Heroes of Horror. No component cost, contingent resurrection with no level loss provided you correctly predict the cause of your death.

Optimystik
2009-10-22, 05:37 PM
A honorary mention for the Wu Jen has to be the 9th level spell from CMage, Arboreal transformation. Is it on par with other 9th level spell? No. Is it cool? Yes.

Turning your enemy's mook into a treant? Priceless.

That is a nifty spell (I especially like the days/level duration Slow even on a successful save) but you're right, for a 9th level that's a little weak.


Spell Compendium recommends adding element spells (not air) wood spells, and Metal spells, to the Wu Jen list.

So, if the DM is generous, the list can receive a hefty boost.

Oh, that's excellent. Why not Air though? But it does add to the Wu Jen's power considerably. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Scratch that, stupid question. I forgot that air isn't one of the Chinese Elements. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_elements)

For lightning and such, wood is usually used - see depictions of Seiryuu/Jupiter in most media based on Chinese myth, such as Last Blade, Sailor Moon and Otogi.


I just wish their was a spontaneous version of Wu Jen. I hate prepped casting. :smallfrown:

The nice thing about prepared casting is you can learn all the situational and niche spells you can get your hands on.

Plus, I'd love to make a Wu Jen Geometer, with exotic oriental inks, whose "spellbook" is one long scroll covered in complex, angular characters and nigh-indecipherable poetry.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 06:49 PM
Oh, that's excellent. Why not Air though? But it does add to the Wu Jen's power considerably. :smallsmile:

Because Wu Jen hate Air.
Seriously, I think that is the truth.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-22, 07:13 PM
Take Arcane Disciple for the Spite domain and cast Pact of Return from Heroes of Horror. No component cost, contingent resurrection with no level loss provided you correctly predict the cause of your death.

But you have to be Neutral Evil.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 07:16 PM
You could get cleric spells. MT for any alignment, Ur-Priest/MT for evils.

Jade_Tarem
2009-10-22, 07:18 PM
Could you end the Transcend Mortality inside an Antimagic Sphere? If the death thing is an ending instant effect of the spell, then being inside an AMS when the duration ends would keep you alive...

Or is that just goofy?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:27 PM
No, that works. Good combo.
Timeless Body works too.

Enlong
2009-10-22, 07:53 PM
Nope. You disintegrate into ash, which I'm pretty sure isn't covered by Revivify.

Edit: Both of those spells function as Raise Dead, which doesn't work on disintegrated bodies.

Isn't there a class with the ability to explode and reform like... at the end of the hour/day/whatever? What happens if you use that Wu Jen power, and explode before the spell finishes? There's nothing there to inevitably die, and the spell should be over by the time you reconstitute yourself.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:56 PM
Isn't there a class with the ability to explode and reform like... at the end of the hour/day/whatever? What happens if you use that Wu Jen power, and explode before the spell finishes? There's nothing there to inevitably die, and the spell should be over by the time you reconstitute yourself.

ToB has Jade Pheonix Mage ability like that.

Enlong
2009-10-22, 08:04 PM
ToB has Jade Pheonix Mage ability like that.

That's what I was thinking of.

What happens if you, as a Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage, cast Trancend Mortality and then go all FOOM just before the spell ends?

TheThan
2009-10-22, 08:27 PM
You know what, I was disappointed with the class.

Not because of the fact that it’s a wizard, but different. I was disappointed with the fact that it uses almost purely wizard/sorcerer spells pulled from the PHB. Basically they took a bunch of spells, stuck a “element” on them and called it a day. Frankly, it’s a bit uninspired.

So I decided to fix this problem. I left the class alone, but I altered the spell list to be a bit more elemental (thanks spell compendium).

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 08:31 PM
They have what 30 spells that are unique.
A few new ones suck, but most are decent.

Grumman
2009-10-22, 09:02 PM
Ignoring the noticeable smell of gouda that accompanies Incantatrix... how is that a gish build? It seems like it would be a pure caster to me. Neither Wu Jen nor 'Trix gain anything on their own that can benefit melee. Or am I missing something?
You've still got 11 levels available for gish PrCs. You'd end up with a B.A.B. of 13-15 instead of 17-18, but in exchange you get Persistent Body Outside Body. This means that instead of one really good fighter, you get fifty average fighters.


Transcend Mortality from Complete Mage is a pretty sweet Wu Jen-only spell, except you die when it's over.
I'm apparently not the first one who thought of this spell for an Ardent Dilettante. Use Transcend Mortality to nova, then when it's about to expire, use Phoenix Fire from BoED to explode, die and reform. Thanks to Ardent Dilettante 10 you don't suffer the normal level penalty for being resurrected.

Zaq
2009-10-22, 11:18 PM
If you want to get into hardcore shenanigans, Transcend Mortality is good to place on an enemy via the Greater Glyph Seals in MiC. Just prep a teleport spell to get away from them, wait them out, and they're no longer a problem.

Very hardcore shenanigans, though. Not recommended at all.

As for the class itself, I kind of want to make a Metal Wu Jen. I believe that Metal is probably not the strongest element, but it's definitely got the coolest spells. Magnetism, the X Scarf spells, all of the spike/needle/whatever spells... those are pretty awesome. Not very good compared to the other elements, perhaps (so many non-touch attack rolls! Argh!) but you just can't get any cooler than Decapitating Scarf.

I think they're a good way to play a wizard flavor with a HAIR less power. They're still Tier 2 for a reason, and they'll still curb-stomp any non-caster, but at least they're a LITTLE less powerful than the wizzie.

Enlong
2009-10-23, 12:20 AM
I like the idea of the metal spells too.

Not sure exactly how useful it is in actual battle, but I love the mental image of a Wu Jen using a magnetism spell to wrest a sword from an enemy fighter, and then cast Rusting Grasp to destroy the weapon wholesale.

And then, after dispatching the fighter, casting the spell to restore the blade and add it to the party's collection.

Sploosh
2009-10-23, 12:25 AM
I want to play a game of 5 gish wujen/monks who specialize in the different elements and use an anthromorphic kangaroo race.

Enlong
2009-10-23, 12:29 AM
How about a team with a set of Wu Jen, and a Champion. The Champion prefers to transform only after the Wu Jen have collectively cast all four of the Elemental "Heart" spells on him.
:smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 05:15 AM
I like the idea of the metal spells too.

Not sure exactly how useful it is in actual battle, but I love the mental image of a Wu Jen using a magnetism spell to wrest a sword from an enemy fighter, and then cast Rusting Grasp to destroy the weapon wholesale.

And then, after dispatching the fighter, casting the spell to restore the blade and add it to the party's collection.

I tried it to use Magnetism in a heated battle against a dude, but I rolled terrible on disarm and failed to steal it away.
I was so sad because it was the last game we played too.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-23, 08:26 AM
I want to play a game of 5 gish wujen/monks who specialize in the different elements and use an anthromorphic kangaroo race.

I hate you.

So much.

:smalltongue:

Ice&Fire
2009-10-23, 08:57 AM
I hate you.

So much.

:smalltongue:

I don't get it. Explain?

Sploosh
2009-10-23, 12:00 PM
I don't get it. Explain?

It's from a movie called Warriors of Virtue.

Fluffles
2009-10-23, 12:20 PM
Wow. This thread has now made me want to play a Gish Wu Jen.

Optimystik
2009-10-23, 12:48 PM
You've still got 11 levels available for gish PrCs. You'd end up with a B.A.B. of 13-15 instead of 17-18, but in exchange you get Persistent Body Outside Body. This means that instead of one really good fighter, you get fifty average fighters.

But don't you take 10 points of untyped damage every time a duplicate is slain? And the duplicates each enter play with a quarter of your HP, so an unlucky AoE could end up with you taking 500 points of damage in addition to that from the spell itself. It doesn't sound like the makings of an elite warrior squad to me. Perhaps you'd be better off with fewer duplicates, but then you start losing the advantage that made your subpar BAB attractive to begin with.


Wow. This thread has now made me want to play a Gish Wu Jen.

For flavor, I'd go with Monk and Enlightened Fist with Kung Fu Genius (Monk abilities key off Int instead of Wis.)

Fluffles
2009-10-23, 12:52 PM
Kung-Fu genious is Dragon though (think) and my DM doesnt allow dragon stuff :smallannoyed:

Kylarra
2009-10-23, 01:00 PM
Kung-Fu genious is Dragon though (think) and my DM doesnt allow dragon stuff :smallannoyed:Carmendine monk is in champions of valor and does the same thing.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 01:02 PM
Carmendine Monk from Champions of Favor is all that Kung Fu Genius is (IIRC) and more. Substitutes Int and gives you a flexible +2 level to some ability.

Douhugal
2010-06-29, 01:20 PM
It is kinda basic, but I haven't found it anywhere on the internet. So I will ask it here.

I found the fire breath spell interesting especially because you can cast it on yourself, and there is also the permanency spell which makes it possible to spit out a fireball a turn indefinitely.

This ain't bad because now you will always have a basic fire attack/spell ready for easy enemy's, But for me it got interesting when I wanted a familiar. By using the share spell ability of the familiar you can give it a nice attack (from above if you choose a bird) and by using permanency the familiar will have it indefinitely. It basically becomes the standard attack of your familiar. :smallsmile:

edit: the damage is 1D8 per 2 caster levels (max 10D8), max range of 15 feet

So what do you think?

PersonMan
2010-06-29, 01:22 PM
Forum Rules. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=30&a=1) Please reread the part about thread necromancy.