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Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 10:09 AM
Im starting a new campaign shortly, in which each player will be starting with a six man party of level 1 characters. The idea is that the attrition rate will be sufficiently brutal that by the time the parties meet up, they can merge.

Basic parameters known: Lots of traps. Ridiculously undead heavy. Everything is Level 1, 3.5E. Also, this DM is notorious for blatantly exceeding reccomended ECLs on fights. I wouldn't be surprised by ECL 5-7 fights before making level 2. Wights are another possibility.

On a personal note, I want to avoid duplicating characters. Sure, I could slam six clerics at it, and beatstick my way through, but what fun is that? Also, I'd like all the characters to have a good possible future if they survive, given that I've no way of knowing who will live for certain.

So, obviously, we might as well have one cleric, due to the undead, and probable need for healing between fights. Toss in one warforged/adamantine body fighter, pumped for DR to get rid of all the light stuff with minimal hp loss.

In a six person party, a bard doesn't actually seem like a bad idea. Given the high probability of hard to hit stuff, I'll need all the buffs I can get.

That gives me three more. A wizard is a given. Rogue or factotum is probably required to handle the traps. I lean torwards rogue, given that a first level factotum will be lacking in inspiration. Final character, Im a bit uncertain about. Possibly sorc...possibly artificer. Not sure what's needed to round things out.

So, anyway, what would you reccomend for a six man party in these circumstances?

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 10:21 AM
Myself, I'd run 2 clerics (a regular one and a cloistered one) or a regular cleric and an Arcivist, A druid with a riding dog (better than a wolf), An Articifer (For the traps) and two Bo9S beat sticks (most anything in there is a good beat stick. Mix and match).

Now make sure you get some CLW wands that only have a few charges on them and a lesser vigor wand.

On the higher powered monsters: Are you railroaded into them, or are you given a work around?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 10:29 AM
I fully expect a ride on the Choo Choo Express with regards to the bigger mobs, at least at first. However, the manner of defeating them should be wide open.

Since everyone is facing more or less the same difficulty level, and in the same area, I suspect we'll automagically reach safety once one of the parties has been whittled down to one character.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 10:37 AM
Ah ha! then can I recommend 5 mooks monks who have donated their earthly goods to the 6th (Either an Articifer or an Arcivist. either is nice).

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 10:47 AM
Lol, I like the way you think. VoP abuse is a good idea...hell, I might take that on a sorc, and use him to burn out/die on an overpowered baddie, if necessary. Even the tank could take VoP technically, since he's improving himself via feats, not buying armor. This gives even more feats for him to buff his DR if he survives, and breaks WBL in a rather good way.

Mmmm, I wonder what an artificer with 6x WBL could do...

Aldizog
2009-10-22, 10:57 AM
Well, whatever classes you pick, Font of Life from Heroes of Horror sounds like a solid feat choice if wights are likely (and it remains useful at higher levels). Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness might also be good.

I do like having non-magical means to counter the "no save, you're screwed" attacks.

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 11:05 AM
Nah you don't want 5 monks, you want 5 aristocrats. :smalltongue:

I'd pick up a druid for the extra beatstick anyway.

Undead heavy means that beguiler might be a better trapmonkey than your rogue.


So eh

Druid, Cleric, Beguiler, Wizard, your fighter type of choice (Warblade? ) and an aristocrat to fund your party and then die an untimely death ... or another caster. Psion maybe?

jiriku
2009-10-22, 11:10 AM
An orc or half-orc barbarian can be nice at 1st level, for the ability to deal 14-18 points of damage per hit (take extra rage for your 1st-level feat).

An arcane caster with precocious apprentice, flaming sphere and that reserve feat that deal 1d6 fire damage per level of your highest-level fire spell in a 5'r burst would deal respectable multi-target auto-hitting area blasts.

Deth Muncher
2009-10-22, 11:57 AM
An arcane caster with precocious apprentice, flaming sphere and that reserve feat that deal 1d6 fire damage per level of your highest-level fire spell in a 5'r burst would deal respectable multi-target auto-hitting area blasts.

Nitpick: You need a minimum of 3rd level fire spell. I'm not sure PrAp can get you there.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 11:59 AM
Nitpick: You need a minimum of 3rd level fire spell. I'm not sure PrAp can get you there.
Nope, second level. Just checked. :smalltongue:

'sa good plan though. I'd probably take a pair of clerics, the aforementioned warforged juggernaut dude, a wizard, a druid, and Mr. Aristocrat for his cashy money.

Aron Times
2009-10-22, 12:41 PM
You can't go wrong with an entire tier 1 party:

1. Cleric - Persistent buffs.
2. Druid - A better fighter than the fighter with a better fighter than a fighter pet.
3. Wizard - Rewrite reality.
4. Artificer - Trapfinding and item crafting.
5. Sorcerer - Tier 2 sidekick and morality pet.
6. ???

arguskos
2009-10-22, 12:43 PM
You can't go wrong with an entire tier 1 party:

1. Cleric - Persistent buffs.
2. Druid - A better fighter than the fighter with a better fighter than a fighter pet.
3. Wizard - Rewrite reality.
4. Artificer - Trapfinding and item crafting.
5. Sorcerer - Tier 2 sidekick and morality pet.
6. ???
Spell to Power Erudite! It's almost fair at level 1! :smallbiggrin:

Pika...
2009-10-22, 12:49 PM
Im starting a new campaign shortly, in which each player will be starting with a six man party of level 1 characters. The idea is that the attrition rate will be sufficiently brutal that by the time the parties meet up, they can merge.

Basic parameters known: Lots of traps. Ridiculously undead heavy. Everything is Level 1, 3.5E. Also, this DM is notorious for blatantly exceeding reccomended ECLs on fights. I wouldn't be surprised by ECL 5-7 fights before making level 2. Wights are another possibility.

On a personal note, I want to avoid duplicating characters. Sure, I could slam six clerics at it, and beatstick my way through, but what fun is that? Also, I'd like all the characters to have a good possible future if they survive, given that I've no way of knowing who will live for certain.

So, obviously, we might as well have one cleric, due to the undead, and probable need for healing between fights. Toss in one warforged/adamantine body fighter, pumped for DR to get rid of all the light stuff with minimal hp loss.

In a six person party, a bard doesn't actually seem like a bad idea. Given the high probability of hard to hit stuff, I'll need all the buffs I can get.

That gives me three more. A wizard is a given. Rogue or factotum is probably required to handle the traps. I lean torwards rogue, given that a first level factotum will be lacking in inspiration. Final character, Im a bit uncertain about. Possibly sorc...possibly artificer. Not sure what's needed to round things out.

So, anyway, what would you reccomend for a six man party in these circumstances?

I would keep what you have there, and make the 6th another rogue. This is based off what you have said of your DM.

I myself just got a copy of Grimtooth's Traps updated to 3.5. I would so love to run something like this, so I am thinking from his perspective. :smallbiggrin:


ps. At the very least they can tag-team for flanking/sneak attacking.

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 12:50 PM
Spell to Power Erudite! It's almost fair at level 1! :smallbiggrin:I was gonna say wilder for overchannel. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2009-10-22, 12:51 PM
I was gonna say wilder for overchannel. :smallbiggrin:
Another good choice, but that's not Tier 1. :smalltongue: I'd really laugh if you did the full Tier 1 Party. It'd be beastly too, so much battlefield control... :smallcool:

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 12:56 PM
I know you said "No duplicates", but I'd double up on the Artificer anyways. You're gonna want a lot of equipment and a secondary trapfinder. Though a Cloistered Cleric could handle that too.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 12:57 PM
Well yeah, but you need someone with a pointy stick to finish off all the controlled mobs. =)

Pure tier one is amusing, though.

I should have mentioned: Anything core, in completes, or in UA is automatically accepted. Anything else will be reviewed. Item familiars and alternate class feature for conjurers looks pretty darn good.

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 12:58 PM
Another good choice, but that's not Tier 1. :smalltongue: I'd really laugh if you did the full Tier 1 Party. It'd be beastly too, so much battlefield control... :smallcool:well technically you'd have to swap the sorcerer for the archivist too.

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 01:00 PM
Well yeah, but you need someone with a pointy stick to finish off all the controlled mobs. =)

Isn't that what Planar Bindings, summons, Clerics, Druids, Animal Companions & if necessary, Artificers & Archivists already excel at? I...have a hard time seeing that to be a problem. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 01:03 PM
Well yeah, but you need someone with a pointy stick to finish off all the controlled mobs. =)

Pure tier one is amusing, though.

I should have mentioned: Anything core, in completes, or in UA is automatically accepted. Anything else will be reviewed. Item familiars and alternate class feature for conjurers looks pretty darn good.
!

take the generic caster.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-22, 01:04 PM
Lots of undead and traps?

Negative energy Cleric or Dread necromancer and those two problems solve each other :smallsmile:


Edit: Ooops, level 1; Maybe taking control undead with precocious apprentice could still be fun.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 01:12 PM
!

take the generic caster.

Yeah...I suspect this is one of those "balance" things I hear DMs talk about so much. Gotta keep an eye out for the crafty powergamers trying to sneak in ToB classes.

Controlling undead into trap finders does seem absolutely awesome. =) That's gonna have to happen!

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:21 PM
My ideal 1st level party of 5 (to carry the guy I want to play at a higher level), would be 2 cloistered cleric kobold with the kobold domain, for traps and sneaking. They can use aid another when looking for traps, and they have more healing. Healing is pretty critical at level 1. If you can pool gp for a wand, do it, and drop one of the clerics for a beguiler.

2 water orc barbarians with extra rage. 24 str & a buttload of HPs? yes please!

A focused specialist wizard with precocious apprentice.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-22, 01:30 PM
I would strongly suggest you pass on using a rogue, beguiler, etc as a minesweeper in an undead loaded game. Instead, I would strongly suggest using a Cloistered Cleric in that role. Better yet, if you can post up the game's character creation rules, I'll even roll the character up for you.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:32 PM
I would strongly suggest you pass on using a rogue, beguiler, etc as a minesweeper in an undead loaded game. Instead, I would strongly suggest using a Cloistered Cleric in that role. Better yet, if you can post up the game's character creation rules, I'll even roll the character up for you.

A rogue is bad news, but a beguiler misleading the mindless ones with an illusion? It's gold.

Kosjsjach
2009-10-22, 01:40 PM
My ideal 1st level party of 5 (to carry the guy I want to play at a higher level), would be 2 cloistered cleric kobold with the kobold domain, for traps and sneaking.
...

I actually really like that idea (probably because it has to do with kobolds :smallbiggrin:). If you want to make him a bit more survivable, make him a Jungle Kobold (UA) to take the stat penalty to Int instead of Con, and take Tactile Trapsmith (CAd) to add Dex intead of Int to Search and Disable Device.

Man, I love kobolds. :smallredface:

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 01:42 PM
I would strongly suggest you pass on using a rogue, beguiler, etc as a minesweeper in an undead loaded game. Instead, I would strongly suggest using a Cloistered Cleric in that role. Better yet, if you can post up the game's character creation rules, I'll even roll the character up for you.

Would be appreciated, I don't know clerics well at all. 28pt buy.

(We actually roll a d100...90 or higher gets a 32 pt buy, a perfect 100 gets a 36 pt buy, but hell, tacking on points later is easy.)

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 01:44 PM
A rogue is bad news, but a beguiler misleading the mindless ones with an illusion? It's gold.A beguiler beguiler misleading the mindless ones is even better!

Gnaeus
2009-10-22, 01:53 PM
Cleric, Druid, (focused specialist) Wizard, Archivist, Beguiler, Psion or Artificer. If you REALLY think you need a tank drop the beguiler, psion or artificer, and replace with warblade or crusader. Fighter never reaches my Dream party (unless it is a nightmare).

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 01:55 PM
I actually really like that idea (probably because it has to do with kobolds :smallbiggrin:). If you want to make him a bit more survivable, make him a Jungle Kobold (UA) to take the stat penalty to Int instead of Con, and take Tactile Trapsmith (CAd) to add Dex intead of Int to Search and Disable Device.

Man, I love kobolds. :smallredface:

I'd go desert kobold, personally. You need 20 wisdom to get a 2 bonus first level spells, but only 12 to get a single bonus first level spell. The intelligence bonus is more important, imo, because that's 4 more skill points. Then take dragonwrought as a feat to get +3 to all mental stats and paralysis immunity (screw you ghouls).

Let's see, Hide, Move Silent, Search, Disable Device, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Escape Artist, Listen, and Spot would all be must haves. That's 9 skills, so you would need 16 int to get all those. I guess you could drop UMD and go with 14 int.

Depends on pointbuy, though. If getting 20 wisdom at level one is feasible, without dumping dex or con, then jungle kobold would be the way to go.

[edit]
Is druid really that great? A bunch of his spells won't work in a dungeon, and he won't be able to replace that animal companion. Admittedly, an armored riding dog is about as good as a fighter, so you could just call that your fighter.

I am still going to heavily recommend two water orc barbarians. They will have almost double the HP of any one else in the party, and their attack and damage will be killer. They will have incredible endurance in a battle. Maybe give them whirling frenzy rage variant, instead, as the extra attack will double their damage output, and the AC bonus will probably outweigh the HP bonus. Though, if you are up against a CR 5 encounter, who knows.

At level 1, a raging water orc barb will be better than the warblade. Especially with whirling frenzy. With extra rage, that's 3 encounters/day you can hulk out and brutalize in.

Draz74
2009-10-22, 01:58 PM
Cloistered Cleric
Druid
Crusader
Beguiler
Wizard
Artificer

... wow, what a redonkulously overpowered party. Yeeesh. :smallamused:

Zovc
2009-10-22, 02:15 PM
Your Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain won't have Open Lock as a class skill. May or may not be a problem, but I'm just saying.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 02:20 PM
Probably unnecessary. We'll just have the undead batter the door until one or the other breaks.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:20 PM
Cloistered Cleric
Druid
Crusader
Beguiler
Wizard
Artificer

... wow, what a redonkulously overpowered party. Yeeesh. :smallamused:

Not at level 1. The melee won't be able to afford plate, the druid can't wildshape, the casters don't get enough spells to solve every problem, and the artificer doesn't get anything good (metamagic on wands, crafting wondrous items, gold to craft with).



Ohhh, you know what would work? Get 1 druid, 4 focused specialist wizards with precocious apprentice & maxed intelligence, and whatever character you want to be playing past level 1. Have the 4 wizards prepare all offensive spells, carry tower shields, sell their spell books, and buy dozens of mage bred riding dogs, a couple mules, and plenty of dog food.

Then just have the druid handle animal them all.

:smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:23 PM
Probably unnecessary. We'll just have the undead batter the door until one or the other breaks.

Disable Device will also open a lock, but you need to beat the DC by 10 or more to not break it.

aje8
2009-10-22, 02:27 PM
Not at level 1. The melee won't be able to afford plate, the druid can't wildshape, the casters don't get enough spells to solve every problem, and the artificer doesn't get anything good (metamagic on wands, crafting wondrous items, gold to craft with).
Um.... Druid built right is one of the storngest characters at lv.1. Have you seen the stats on a riding dog? They're literally better than most melee characters at lv. 1. Then there's summoning and then there's the rest of a Druids spells...... yeah seriously.

My party:
Greenbound Summoning Druid
DMM Cleric
Focused Conjurer Wizard
Crusader
Artificer
Archivist

Might be a little light on trapfinding, but there's always summoning celestial monkeys..... or the Cleric can take kobold domain.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:28 PM
Not at level 1. The melee won't be able to afford plate, the druid can't wildshape, the casters don't get enough spells to solve every problem, and the artificer doesn't get anything good (metamagic on wands, crafting wondrous items, gold to craft with).



Ohhh, you know what would work? Get 1 druid, 4 focused specialist wizards with precocious apprentice & maxed intelligence, and whatever character you want to be playing past level 1. Have the 4 wizards prepare all offensive spells, carry tower shields, sell their spell books, and buy dozens of mage bred riding dogs, a couple mules, and plenty of dog food.

Then just have the druid handle animal them all.

:smallbiggrin:
Oh... oh god... this is a prime idea! I approve of it whole heartedly! :smallbiggrin:

Have the 6th character be an aristocrat, for the money to buy MORE riding dogs. :smallamused: We've hit the Riding Dog Singularity!

Kosjsjach
2009-10-22, 02:32 PM
I'd go desert kobold, personally. You need 20 wisdom to get a 2 bonus first level spells, but only 12 to get a single bonus first level spell. The intelligence bonus is more important, imo, because that's 4 more skill points. Then take dragonwrought as a feat to get +3 to all mental stats and paralysis immunity (screw you ghouls).

Let's see, Hide, Move Silent, Search, Disable Device, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Escape Artist, Listen, and Spot would all be must haves. That's 9 skills, so you would need 16 int to get all those. I guess you could drop UMD and go with 14 int.

Depends on pointbuy, though. If getting 20 wisdom at level one is feasible, without dumping dex or con, then jungle kobold would be the way to go.

I really want to have this debate with you. It's fun. Unfortunately, I don't want to hijack the thread, so this'll hopefully be my last post on the topic.

I try to avoid the Dragonwrought + Venerable trick, half because of flavor (he's lived for over 120 years and never got past first level?) and half because if I was a DM in a game where a player tried it, I'd scowl.

About the Int-vs-Wis thing: being able to focus only on Dex and Wis (and Con) certainly helps in a 28-point-buy game. Additionally, a cloistered cleric with 8 Int gets 20 skill points at 1st level, and that's enough for max Disable Device, Search, Concentration, and Heal, with 4 ranks left over for Speak Language: Common (otherwise he'd be left with just Draconic) and whatever else you want to unlock. Keep in mind, the goal is a trapmonkey healbot: I believe a Jungle Kobold fits this role better.

*phew* Ok, I'm done. :smallwink: Thanks for putting up with me.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:41 PM
Um.... Druid built right is one of the storngest characters at lv.1. Have you seen the stats on a riding dog? They're literally better than most melee characters at lv. 1. Then there's summoning and then there's the rest of a Druids spells...... yeah seriously.

Yeah, alright, riding dog and SNA: Wolf are pretty boss. 1d6+1 damage range attacks are meh, and entangle & goodberry won't be of much use in a dungeon crawl.


Greenbound Summoning Druid
DMM Cleric
Focused Conjurer Wizard
Crusader
Artificer
Archivist

Might be a little light on trapfinding, but there's always summoning celestial monkeys..... or the Cleric can take kobold domain.

Light on trapfinding. Artificer can cover that, I guess. But why artificer? What's it got going on at level 1 that a cloistered cleric doesn't?

DMM at level 1 only works with a human or strongheart halfling, and either 18 charisma or the undeath domain. Or flaws. With flaws, you can definitely pull it off. DMM might be worthwhile.

Wasting your spell slots on summoning celestial monkeys when you could just have a commanded skeleton or trapmonkey open the door isn't very optimal.

There's also the chance that some traps are weight sensitive, or go off around life, which means
a) a skeleton or summoned monster might not trip it (too light)
b) a skeleton or other commanded undead won't trip it, because they're not alive.


I really want to have this debate with you. It's fun. Unfortunately, I don't want to hijack the thread, so this'll hopefully be my last post on the topic.

I try to avoid the Dragonwrought + Venerable trick, half because of flavor (he's lived for over 120 years and never got past first level?) and half because if I was a DM in a game where a player tried it, I'd scowl.

It really depends on the game. If the DM is all "hey, make an optimized party and fight CR 5 encounters," I wouldn't be that hesitant to do it.


About the Int-vs-Wis thing: being able to focus only on Dex and Wis (and Con) certainly helps in a 28-point-buy game. Additionally, a cloistered cleric with 8 Int gets 20 skill points at 1st level, and that's enough for max Disable Device, Search, Concentration, and Heal, with 4 ranks left over for Speak Language: Common (otherwise he'd be left with just Draconic) and whatever else you want to unlock. Keep in mind, the goal is a trapmonkey healbot: I believe a Jungle Kobold fits this role better.

*phew* Ok, I'm done. :smallwink: Thanks for putting up with me.

Oh, I totally forgot about concentration & heal. I've always been a fan of having more skills, rather than less. Having two semi-stupid kobold tunnelrat clerics that wear mining helmets and only speak in draconic, who were hired by the part wizard (the only other person who can speak draconic), sounds pretty hilarious.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:42 PM
Hey, have the party druid be a halfling, and ride a riding dog. Give 'im a lance. Have fun with those charges. :smallamused:

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:44 PM
Hey, have the party druid be a halfling, and ride a riding dog. Give 'im a lance. Have fun with those charges. :smallamused:

You need 4 feats to pull that off with a druid, though. Unless -4 non-proficiency with a lance won't be a big deal.

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 02:44 PM
Summoner Druid would really be solid on level 1. Pick Ashbound, maybe Spellgifted: Conjuration & Greenbound Summoning and along with mayhap Rapid Spell & Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration and you've got ~4-round summons with completely obscene stats and the capability to cast spells themselves. With Rapid Spell, you can even cast the summons as a standard action (requires flaws though).

But yeah, if I specifically optimized for level 1, I'd use martial trippers with reach weapons coupled with people with Enlarge Person prepared. They simply stall incredibly tough melee monsters by not letting them close in.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:57 PM
You need 4 feats to pull that off with a druid, though. Unless -4 non-proficiency with a lance won't be a big deal.
...why four? Lance is martial. Just one feat, since druids have full prof with simple. Mounted Combat isn't essential. What are the other two feats?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 03:01 PM
You need 4 feats to pull that off with a druid, though. Unless -4 non-proficiency with a lance won't be a big deal.

Strongheart halfling with two flaws?

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 03:02 PM
But yeah, if I specifically optimized for level 1, I'd use martial trippers with reach weapons coupled with people with Enlarge Person prepared. They simply stall incredibly tough melee monsters by not letting them close in.

In my experience, rolling d20 vs d20 when tripping is too variable to be very reliable. On average, you might always win, but you don't get to roll average. I guess that's why you'd want a couple trippers.


...why four? Lance is martial. Just one feat, since druids have full prof with simple. Mounted Combat isn't essential. What are the other two feats?

Oh, my bad, I was thinking the whole spirited charge chain for 3x damage.


Strongheart halfling with two flaws?

Yah.
I don't assume flaws are in play unless explicitly stated, because they aren't RAW and a lot of DMs say no.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-10-22, 03:04 PM
A Ranger that dresses only in Red.
A Ranger that dresses only in Blue.
A Ranger that dresses only in Yellow.
A Ranger that dresses only in Pink.
A Ranger that dresses only in Black.
A Ranger that dresses only in White, joins later.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 03:07 PM
Yah.
I don't assume flaws are in play unless explicitly stated, because they aren't RAW and a lot of DMs say no.

He owns UA, and made a point of saying that UA was on the short list of "anything in here is automatically legit, no need to check".

Normally, UA contains most of the wild variants I would check first about, but hey...if given free reign, Im gonna use it.

I wonder if I could give the druid two lances.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-22, 03:08 PM
If you feel like having a tank, a Warforged Crusader with Adamantine body fits the profile pretty well. Starts the game with 21ish AC, effective health through the roof for level 1 (maybe 13, but can take an extra 5, and heals 2 health per hit with martial spirit +1d6+1 with Crusader's strike).

Between the AC and health, it should be able to kill most level appropriate enemies, and many out of range, on its own. Most enemies at level 1 will hit on 18-20 on his AC, and those hits that get through get soaked pretty easily. Easy to wipe out zombies, and has a half-chance of beating a wight.

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 03:10 PM
A Ranger that dresses only in Red.
A Ranger that dresses only in Blue.
A Ranger that dresses only in Yellow.
A Ranger that dresses only in Pink.
A Ranger that dresses only in Black.
A Ranger that dresses only in White, joins later.The last one dresses in Green first and then leaves for a while before coming back in White.

Another_Poet
2009-10-22, 03:11 PM
THE TRAVELING CIRCUS

For kicks, I would consider going with Druid, Druid, Ranger (archery track), Cleric (healbot/buffs), Cleric (necromancer), Conjuration specialist wizard.

WITH the following specifications:
-All characters purchase 1 battle-trained riding dog with starting wealth (if affordable, otherwise buy as many as possible by pooling funds)
-Plus the 2 animal companions = 8 riding dogs
-All characters max Handle Animal.
-All riding dogs have the Attack trick twice so they can attack any enemy type (remember it's a move action to handle a trained animal, or free action on you animal companion)
-Use remaining money or loot from first few fights to get Barding

Now you have a level 1 group that can make 14 attacks per round including 8 free trip attempts, plus any attacks from the necromancer's undead, plus any summoned creatures. You also have nearly unlimited buffing/healing and a good supply of expendable dogmeat to send into likely traps or ambushes.

This group would probably make it through the gauntlet with all 6 characters alive (and most of the dogs).

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 03:13 PM
He owns UA, and made a point of saying that UA was on the short list of "anything in here is automatically legit, no need to check".

Normally, UA contains most of the wild variants I would check first about, but hey...if given free reign, Im gonna use it.

My bad. Missed that post.


I wonder if I could give the druid two lances.

Why two lances? You can still only use one on a charge, I think.


If you feel like having a tank, a Warforged Crusader with Adamantine body fits the profile pretty well. Starts the game with 21ish AC, effective health through the roof for level 1 (maybe 13, but can take an extra 5, and heals 2 health per hit with martial spirit +1d6+1 with Crusader's strike).

Between the AC and health, it should be able to kill most level appropriate enemies, and many out of range, on its own. Most enemies at level 1 will hit on 18-20 on his AC, and those hits that get through get soaked pretty easily. Easy to wipe out zombies, and has a half-chance of beating a wight.

Ooh, nice. Adamantine body is a pretty sweet feat at level 1.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-22, 03:16 PM
Oh yeah, and the DR 2. That helps survivability a lot as well :smallbiggrin:

Oh, wait. Are warforged immune to energy drain? If so, then they're awesome vs Wights, they can just soak the pitiful damage and smash.

Kosjsjach
2009-10-22, 03:24 PM
Oh, wait. Are warforged immune to energy drain?

*checks*

They totally are. Sweet. Do that.

Kosjsjach
2009-10-22, 03:42 PM
Thinking about warforged gave me another thought. Have you considered the Dragonfire Adept class?

Pick up Entangling Exhalation. Terrific battlefield control, and you're a fire-breathing robot. :smallbiggrin:

(I know, neither Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon are on the auto-approved list, but c'mon. It's worth a try. :smallsmile:)

Draz74
2009-10-22, 04:07 PM
Yeah, Dragonfire Adepts are pretty rockin' at Level 1. So are Tome of Battle classes.

Wood Elf Ranger with Favored Enemy (undead) (boosted to a +3 bonus by Racial Substitution Level) could be pretty scary at very low levels, too.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 04:09 PM
Actually, yeah...I was looking at the Draconomicon last night, and staring at metabreath feats, trying to determine how to abuse them most.

One of those might be worth it, because yknow after all the big baddies fall, the next thing he's gonna try is a swarm of 'em.

Can only use one lance on a charge? Ah...was wondering about TWFing em. Oh well, a giant pack of riding dogs is a definite use for the WBL. Between that and the controlled undead, I should have a small army at my disposal.

woodenbandman
2009-10-22, 05:11 PM
You have 6 people to control by yourself?

I'd go for Archivist, Crusader, Totemist, Bard, Wizard, and Rogue.

You have 2 scouts (Totemist or Bard + rogue), 2 tanks, 2 faces, and 2 casters (or 3 if the bard goes Sublime Chord). Your bard and archivist are the buffers, the wizard hands the rogue some gravestrike if he can, and everyone generally works well together.

I'd recommend the Rogue actually be an Incarnate at level 1 and go into Umbral Disciple but that's just my view of it.

Thurbane
2009-10-22, 08:16 PM
That gives me three more. A wizard is a given. Rogue or factotum is probably required to handle the traps. I lean torwards rogue, given that a first level factotum will be lacking in inspiration. Final character, Im a bit uncertain about. Possibly sorc...possibly artificer. Not sure what's needed to round things out.

So, anyway, what would you reccomend for a six man party in these circumstances?
I would suggest:
Archivist (spells aplenty, plus boosts for melee characters with his Dark Knowledge)
Beguiler (trap-finder, skillmonkey and full caster)
Dragonfire Adept (all rounder with all day abilities) or
Binder (all rounder with all day abilities)

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 08:22 PM
Dread Necro
Cleric
Elven Generalist Wizard
Beguiler
Crusader
Druid

See Cleric can spontaneous heal (emergencies), Divine Metamagic.
DN can rebuke/control undead.
Beguiler can find traps.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 10:54 PM
Can only use one lance on a charge? Ah...was wondering about TWFing em. Oh well, a giant pack of riding dogs is a definite use for the WBL. Between that and the controlled undead, I should have a small army at my disposal.

You're still going to need a way to pounce.
Lion totem barbarian with whirling frenzy variant? That's three attacks without penalty at x2 damage.

megabyter5
2009-10-23, 07:03 AM
ANYTHING in UA is allowed..?

gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters gestalt characters

Tyndmyr
2009-10-23, 08:13 AM
I may be a cheese happy optimizer, but even I have limits. =) I think I'll keep away from Gestalt, unless someone else opens that can o' worms first.