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Flayerman
2009-10-22, 01:50 PM
Title says it all, but I'll expound a bit.

So, I've had a lot of players over my years of gaming, and I've played my fair share of things, too. Everyone knows Casters are the only thing that matters high-level; this isn't what I'm talking about. Everyone also knows anybody going Fighter 20 has to be content with basically being useless, as is the case for any other noncaster class.

So why do Monks suck so hard? What makes monks different from the other fighter-type classes? Is it that they actually are encouraged to go to 20 for their benefits? Is it their lack of ability to buy weapons and armor? Is it, perhaps, the bald sheen of their heads distracting their parties?

Someone do enlighten me, as I'm quite fond of the class and curious as to all the monk-hate I see on here!

tl;dr: Why do monks suck?!

hamishspence
2009-10-22, 01:51 PM
Poor base attack bonus, lack of feats, massive dependency on multiple attributes (Str, Con, Wis, etc) and so on.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 01:52 PM
inb4 Unarmed Swordsage, Giacomo, and lock.

Anyways, Monks are weak thanks to severe MAD (multiple ability dependency). That's really the main thing that everything else boils down to. Oh, and the fact that their class abilities are VERY slapped together and not self-synergistic at all.

Saintjebus
2009-10-22, 01:52 PM
From what I understand, it boils down to the fact that basically anything that monks can do, any other melee type can do better, and they are extremely MAD.

I would recommend, though, running a search on this subject. There are countless other threads about this topic. You can probably find a more detailed answer than mine on one of those.

EDIT: Ach! ninja'ed

wormwood
2009-10-22, 01:54 PM
Because you could go fighter 20, specializing in unarmed combat, using your WBL to buy items that mimic monk special abilities and be better than the monk at every level?

Just a guess.

Flayerman
2009-10-22, 01:55 PM
Makes sense.

And here I was hoping it was the shaved heads.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-22, 01:56 PM
Medium BAB doth not a beatstick make. And I'll hear none of that "But they are caster killers" nonsense. They are only for that at low levels, and then other things do it better.

Runolfr
2009-10-22, 01:57 PM
I'd be inclined to argue that whether or not ANY class sucks will depend largely on your DM and the sort of campaign s/he runs. In fact, a good DM should be able to design a campaign in which all characters, regardless of class, are valuable and necessary participants in each game session.

Defiant
2009-10-22, 01:58 PM
MAD, non-full BAB melee person, and the fact that they do damage to their enemies. Damage is the last thing you want to inflict on an enemy in combat.

SurlySeraph
2009-10-22, 01:58 PM
Well, others can rant at more length than I can, but here are a few things:
*They need to have high scores in multiple abilities to be fully functional: Strength for attack and damage, Dexterity for defense since they can't wear armor, Wisdom for their class features, and Constitution so they don't die since they're frontliners. Wizards just need high Intelligence, and clerics/druids just need high Wisdom. Boosting one stat is easier than boosting multiple. Feats like Weapon Finesse help with this, but that requires using up feats.

*Their class features don't synergize well with each other. Flurry of Blows gives them additional attacks, and they get a speed bonus. They can't make a full attack after moving their speed, so one or the other of these will be largely pointless in combat. They get Evasion and various immunities so they don't need to make saves, but they already have great saves that mean such things wouldn't be a big threat anyway.

*Their good class features take too long to kick in and are too limited. Slow Fall is incredibly situational, Abundant Step is once per day and comes at level 12 when Wizards have been able to cast Dimension Door for the past 5 levels, Quivering Palm is once per week and has a low DC when Clerics have been able to cast Slay Living multiple times per day for the past 6 levels, and Perfect Self gives a bunch of bonuses (though the DR is useless since at level 20 everything will have magic weapons) way too late in the game for them to make much difference.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 01:59 PM
I'd be inclined to argue that whether or not ANY class sucks will depend largely on your DM and the sort of campaign s/he runs. In fact, a good DM should be able to design a campaign in which all characters, regardless of class, are valuable and necessary participants in each game session.
Eh... this is true, to a degree. Stormwind will only get you so far. Some classes are SO mechanically gimped that to make them useful makes everyone else overpowered. Basically, the Monk is playing a much weaker game than everyone else, even the Fighter. At least he can take Power Attack and hit really hard, the poor Monk can't even do that well.

It's not that the Monk is just bad, it's that he's so much worse than everyone else he can't keep up, even in favorable circumstances.

Prime32
2009-10-22, 01:59 PM
They get a ton of class features, but 20th-level slow fall is still worse than a feather fall spell, and quivering palm is once per week. (seriously?)

Draz74
2009-10-22, 02:05 PM
Some major factors that people haven't brought up yet are:


Unless you spend an unreasonable amount of money on it, a Monk's AC will usually be *lower* than other melee classes' AC's. Though this is really just a consequence of the MAD everybody is mentioning ...
They can't use magic weapons without giving up their massive unarmed damage (unless some admittedly common houserules are used)
Even with the massive unarmed damage, they just don't do very much damage compared to other melee classes (if they avoid various traps).

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:07 PM
inb4 Unarmed Swordsage, Giacomo, and lock.

Anyways, Monks are weak thanks to severe MAD (multiple ability dependency). That's really the main thing that everything else boils down to. Oh, and the fact that their class abilities are VERY slapped together and not self-synergistic at all.

I've been in games with 40 to 50 pb monks, and they still suck.

Offensively, the problem is their dependency on full attacks that get few damage bonuses and 3/4 BAB. Increased fist damage is too variable to, and doesn't do that much damage anyway.

Using magic equipment to increase their abilities is extremely necessary, but very costly, and pretty much requires the DM to be giving you items of +4 & +6 to ability scores and early access to Tomes of +strength and the like. A lot of DMs are slow to do this, especially if the other party members are expecting similar treatment. A caster that gets +6 to their prime ability score almost doubles the number of their highest level spells; a monk gets +3 more to hit & damage, or +3 to AC.

Telonius
2009-10-22, 02:09 PM
Because you could go fighter 20, specializing in unarmed combat, using your WBL to buy items that mimic monk special abilities and be better than the monk at every level?

Just a guess.

This.

From way back....


I'd say that monks are underpowered.

My reason?

Morris the Mock Monk.
Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)

Morris will have exactly the same ability scores as a 20th-level Monk. Morris has all six of the monk's Bonus Feats, while the Monk can only have three of them. Fighter has 6 feats (4 fighter and 2 normal) left over between then and 20th level - the Monk only has 7 feats to begin with (8 if a human), so Morris can most likely take all of the same feats that the Monk does by level 20, minus one. He has an average of 20 more hit points than the monk by 20th level. He has a higher BAB, which means he can hit more often than an equivalent-level Monk. Morris Power Attacks for at least 3 every time; with his Weapon Specialization, this means he's hitting as hard as a 20th-level monk starting at 12th level. (Except his attack bonus is still 2 better than the monk). Morris can wear enchantable armor while fighting, which costs less than the Monk's Bracers; he has an AC almost equalling, if not exceeding, the Monk. He can use his enchanted Gauntlets without using a Feat to gain proficiency.

Monk, on the other hand, gets faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, Slow Fall, immunity to diseases, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, immunity to poison, Dimension door 1/day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, etherealness (monk level) rounds per day, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

But several of the Monk's bonuses can be gained by magic items. The Fighter can afford these, since he's paying less for his armor. Ring of Feather Fall, Periapt of Health OR Periapt of Proof against Poison (can't have both on at once), widgets of Etherealness and Dimension Door 1/day.

So, Monk's advantages: Faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, immunity to diseases OR poison, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

That's it. Those are the only advantages a real monk has over Morris, who has deliberately left his normal role to do what the Monk is supposed to be able to do. (I'm not going to do the stats, but I suspect that any advantages the extra Flurry attacks would give the Monk are rather small).

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:10 PM
Monks, like every other class, are fine if you don't optimize your game. If you optimize you will find it far harder to play a monk along side your friends. It's simply poor design and says more about the entire system in general then to the Monk class itself. The monk really isn't the problem, it just easily makes all the true problems stick out more.

So, play to your hearts content! Any group worth it's salt will let you play whatever you want and STILL work with you to be effective because you are all friends and having fun. That's what a team is for. Pay no mind to the "monk's suck, are dead weight, you're a burden to your party." nonsense. You can play ANY Class you like in so long as you and your party are on the same page as to play styles. If you don't like to optimize and everyone else does, naturally you won't jive well. Opposite it true. S'not the Monk's fault. They just get the blame as the poster child for the worst class synergy and use of the system in Core.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:10 PM
I've been in games with 40 to 50 pb monks, and they still suck.
Damn. That's excessive. I did play a monk once that had (in order), 18, 18, 18, 11, 16, 18. That's before racial adjustments. The DM watched me roll that block, so it was legit. I did alright, but it was a lower power game. The Fighter still outdid me for damage, though I was better at locking down enemy casters (a friendly Dispel on them and a good grapple-->pin from me was typically GG for them). Still, even with that block, I wasn't the best character around.

Flayerman
2009-10-22, 02:11 PM
So how do you make monks not suck, besides unarmed swordsage? Increase BAB? Make flurry of blows a standard action?

I'm curious, because I'm planning to play one in a Pathfinder game, and I'd like to know what I can pitch to my GM to fix it.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-22, 02:14 PM
Monks are a bit better in Pathfinder, as their flurry of blows is at their monk level for attack bonus. Other then that, I haven't looked at them that closely.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 02:15 PM
Title says it all, but I'll expound a bit.

So, I've had a lot of players over my years of gaming, and I've played my fair share of things, too. Everyone knows Casters are the only thing that matters high-level; this isn't what I'm talking about. Everyone also knows anybody going Fighter 20 has to be content with basically being useless, as is the case for any other noncaster class.

So why do Monks suck so hard? What makes monks different from the other fighter-type classes? Is it that they actually are encouraged to go to 20 for their benefits? Is it their lack of ability to buy weapons and armor? Is it, perhaps, the bald sheen of their heads distracting their parties?

Someone do enlighten me, as I'm quite fond of the class and curious as to all the monk-hate I see on here!

tl;dr: Why do monks suck?!

Well, this question tends to come up in a while ... :smallsmile:
If you have 12 hours reading time, you can find out a lot about the discussion in the guide I once made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)where I dared to suggest that built properly a monk can challenge spellcasters of the same level in the core game environment (that was the original assumption of the designers for game balance).*

In a nutshell:
I do not think that monks suck.

They are somewhat challenging to play them well, but once you figure out what their strengths are, you can have fun with them even beyond the core rules:
1. Number of attacks
2. Bonus feats without stat requirements (making them less MAD than other melee classes)
3. Unarmed base damage scaling with size and a lot of other effects to surpass even sneak damage dice (depending on maxing tolerance of your DM :smallsmile:)
4. Good defenses, vs magic and general combat
5. A wide array of special abilities that save money from needing to get expensive items to do it
6. Useful skills.
7. Good prestige classes (non-core mostly) and build possibliites (there is no need to go all level 1-20 monk, but it can certainly be done...)

Their weaknesses can be overcome with some good tactics and buffs/items and rising levels.
Example: Medium BAB only.
1. Try to make most use out of touch attack combat (grapple, trip)
2. Get a divine power buff lateron (it can be put in a farily cheap wand)
3. Actually, due to the flurry of blows you get two highest BAB attacks as well, so a level 11 monk has BAB +8/+8/+8/+3 (add up to 27) vs a fighter's +11/+6/+1. (add up to 18). For full attacks you are at least on par with the full BAB classes, if not better.

Try it.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS: Unarmed swordsage from Tome of Battle often comes up as allegedly a fully usable alternative. Won't work without several houserulings. Ask your DM (plus, the ToB maneuver mechanisms may be awkward at first).

*EDIT: PPS: A quite long-running playtest for level 12 core characters with a monk I play is currently going on here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6409074#post6409074) You can find a lot of inspiration there how higher level combat can work and what you can do with a monk.
A thread was created by Pharao's Fist, another player of that test here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124758) Take note, though, that this thread starts out quite biased against monks and currently evolves in more of a discussion thread of game aspects of the playtest.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:15 PM
So how do you make monks not suck, besides unarmed swordsage? Increase BAB? Make flurry of blows a standard action?

I'm curious, because I'm planning to play one in a Pathfinder game, and I'd like to know what I can pitch to my GM to fix it.

Pathfinder monks are different then standard monks. Change nothing. Play the Pathfinder Monk as you will.... then come back and tell us about it! :3

Telonius
2009-10-22, 02:16 PM
Full BAB, able to enchant their fists and body as though they were magic arms and armor, increased HD, would be good for a start.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:17 PM
Monks, like every other class, are fine if you don't optimize your game.

They really aren't.
I've played in games of all melee characters, and the monk sucked. He was outshone by the rogues, the barbarian, the fighter, the druid that used a magic sling & never wildshaped or used an animal companion, and the barbarian with racial HD and LA. When the party got non-DMM clerics & a blaster wizard, he didn't do better than those, either.

And no one in that party was anywhere near "optimized". We all picked up power attack & cleave- that was the closest it got to optimization. I think we all had around 40 pb characters, too.

The worst part was dragging his useless ass around, since he really couldn't do anything. If he had had optimized, it would have been better. Instead, he just used spring attack and tried not to get hurt.


Damn. That's excessive. I did play a monk once that had (in order), 18, 18, 18, 11, 16, 18. That's before racial adjustments. The DM watched me roll that block, so it was legit. I did alright, but it was a lower power game. The Fighter still outdid me for damage, though I was better at locking down enemy casters (a friendly Dispel on them and a good grapple-->pin from me was typically GG for them). Still, even with that block, I wasn't the best character around.

Yeah, monks are really just that bad. It's a bummer. Multiclassing into something like druid, psychic warrior or sorcerer can really boost them, but monk 20 is suicide.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:19 PM
The worst part was dragging his useless ass around, since he really couldn't do anything. If he had had optimized, it would have been better. Instead, he just used spring attack and tried not to get hurt.


*cough* I rest my case. >:3

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-22, 02:19 PM
Damn. That's excessive. I did play a monk once that had (in order), 18, 18, 18, 11, 16, 18. That's before racial adjustments. The DM watched me roll that block, so it was legit. I did alright, but it was a lower power game. The Fighter still outdid me for damage, though I was better at locking down enemy casters (a friendly Dispel on them and a good grapple-->pin from me was typically GG for them). Still, even with that block, I wasn't the best character around.

Wow... talk about throwing good rolls after bad classes. Can you imagine the kind of awesome havoc you'd have wreaked as a Tome of Battle class, or as a druid/wizard with those stats? Using them on a monk is such a waste....

Anyway, I've always felt that the first level or two of monk is not so bad. But monk, for some reason starts to get addictive. Once you hit three levels of monk the suck begins to creep in, and by the time you're ready to PrC at level 5, you've a full blown case of bad class-itis that will infect all your friends with suckitude until either some kind soul shows you the retraining rules in PHB2, or your monk dies a merciful death at the hand of one of the many monsters that can attack monks without any chance of reprisal (aka monsters with CR appropriate AC/defenses.)

SurlySeraph
2009-10-22, 02:20 PM
Yeah, monks are really just that bad. It's a bummer. Multiclassing into something like druid, psychic warrior or sorcerer can really boost them, but monk 20 is suicide.

This. Arcane Fist, Enlightened Fist, and PsyWar with Tashalatora let you do what a monk does, except more so. Want to play a fist-fighting, energy-blasting, Dragonball Z type character in DnD? Those classes are how.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:25 PM
1. I'd like to mention that of my three predictions, two have happened inside of 25 posts.

2. Paulus, monks really are godawful. I mean, I LIKE them, but they're just BAD. Yes, in a super low level game the monk can be decentish, maybe, but in anything that isn't Tier 5 or lower, the poor dude is just screwed without some pretty clever builds and some good op-fu. I've been there, I've done that, and the class's mechanical defects are so extreme that they are a pain to work around. You are always better off dipping for a level or two, then going to another class that just is better, like FIGHTER.

Ok, for the ultimate example, I once observed a fight between an unaltered minotaur (straight from the SRD) versus a level 7 monk (Core only, 40 pb, IIRC). The Minotaur beat the monk into the ground. They did the fight three times, just to ensure it wasn't bad rolls or anything. The monk got SCHOOLED each damn time. It wasn't even fair.
-First match, grapple. Didn't work out, the minotaur's strength just overwhelmed the monk, who got impaled on the minotaur's horns.
-Second match, the monk tried using mobility, stunning fist, and flurries to whittle the minotaur down. Did pretty well, but one or two good PA hits and that monk died horribly.
-Third match, tried mixing it up, using combat tricks like trip and disarm to hamper the minotaur. Didn't work again. Str+size=dead monk.

That test wasn't exactly the best one ever, but it was a single CR 4 vs. a level 7. It SHOULD go to the level 7 every time, with some minor struggles. Instead, it was a DISASTER.

@Tokiko: I personally dislike ToB, the campaign was Core only anyways, and I'd just finished playing a druid, and was in the mood for combat, not spells or bears. :smallwink: But yeah, I know.

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:25 PM
@arguskos
We once pitted my level 7 half-orc barbarian vs. the party's level 7 human monk (we liked to run small combat scenarios after the game), and the monk tried the same tactics. Didn't work. Eventually, he had to move away and throw sling stones at me while I chased him.


*cough* I rest my case. >:3

What do you mean you rest your case?
You like being useless?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 02:28 PM
Wow... talk about throwing good rolls after bad classes. Can you imagine the kind of awesome havoc you'd have wreaked as a Tome of Battle class, or as a druid/wizard with those stats? Using them on a monk is such a waste....

That's the point. With awesome rolls, I want to gimp myself. If I roll 18/18/16/16/16/15 (which I did once), I play a monk (or a Samurai or some NPC class; but never Truenamer). I already powergame; add awesome rolls and that awesome havoc is ruining my games.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:30 PM
That's the point. With awesome rolls, I want to gimp myself. If I roll 18/18/16/16/16/15 (which I did once), I play a monk (or a Samurai or some NPC class; but never Truenamer). I already powergame; add awesome rolls and that awesome havoc is ruining my games.
Yeah, basically. I've played a CW Samurai, actually. In any game with stuff that's vulnerable to fear (more than you might think), they aren't GODAWFUL, just Fighter-. I haven't played a Truenamer yet. I need to get on that (oh wait...).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 02:33 PM
*Their good class features take too long to kick in and are too limited. Slow Fall is incredibly situational, Abundant Step is once per day and comes at level 12 when Wizards have been able to cast Dimension Door for the past 5 levels,

In addition, the Horizon Walker gets Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds at level 11.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:34 PM
1. I'd like to mention that of my three predictions, two have happened inside of 25 posts.

2. Paulus, monks really are godawful. I mean, I LIKE them, but they're just BAD. Yes, in a super low level game the monk can be decentish, maybe, but in anything that isn't Tier 5 or lower, the poor dude is just screwed without some pretty clever builds and some good op-fu. I've been there, I've done that, and the class's mechanical defects are so extreme that they are a pain to work around. You are always better off dipping for a level or two, then going to another class that just is better, like FIGHTER.

Ok, for the ultimate example, I once observed a fight between an unaltered minotaur (straight from the SRD) versus a level 7 monk (Core only, 40 pb, IIRC). The Minotaur beat the monk into the ground. They did the fight three times, just to ensure it wasn't bad rolls or anything. The monk got SCHOOLED each damn time. It wasn't even fair.
-First match, grapple. Didn't work out, the minotaur's strength just overwhelmed the monk, who got impaled on the minotaur's horns.
-Second match, the monk tried using mobility, stunning fist, and flurries to whittle the minotaur down. Did pretty well, but one or two good PA hits and that monk died horribly.
-Third match, tried mixing it up, using combat tricks like trip and disarm to hamper the minotaur. Didn't work again. Str+size=dead monk.

That test wasn't exactly the best one ever, but it was a single CR 4 vs. a level 7. It SHOULD go to the level 7 every time, with some minor struggles. Instead, it was a DISASTER.

Well again, it isn't the monk, it's the system, the monk simply makes the glaring faults in the system more glaring. How is fighting a monster alone a fault of the monk? It's only natural that a single character vs. a monster usually built to be bigger and stronger and therefore able to take on a party of four can beat a single character alone. But enough of that, I said the monk was poorly designed, but it didn't matter because any group worth it's salt could help the player and his character be better or prove useful. Is this catering to weakness at the expense of the rest of the group or is it making sure your players each have a turn in the spot light? You can play whatever you want, and it will be fun as long as you and your group are on the same page.



What do you mean you rest your case?
You like being useless?

I won't get into personal attacks with you, thank you very much. Move along.

jiriku
2009-10-22, 02:35 PM
So how do you make monks not suck, besides unarmed swordsage? Increase BAB? Make flurry of blows a standard action?

I'm curious, because I'm planning to play one in a Pathfinder game, and I'd like to know what I can pitch to my GM to fix it.

Flayerman, several people here can offer you alternative monk classes, but most of them don't really have the feel or style of the PHB monk any more. I have a heavily houseruled monk that stays more true to the feel of the PHB monk. You might find some usable ideas in it. I am at work now and don't have access to it, but I'll post it for you in 4-5 hours when I get home.

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:38 PM
Well again, it isn't the monk, it's the system, the monk simply makes the glaring faults in the system more glaring. How is fighting a monster alone a fault of the monk? It's only natural that a single character vs. a monster usually built to be bigger and stronger and therefore able to take on a party of four can beat a single character alone. But enough of that, I said the monk was poorly designed, but it didn't matter because any group worth it's salt could help the player and his character be better or prove useful. Is this catering to weakness at the expense of the rest of the group or is it making sure your players each have a turn in the spot light? You can play whatever you want, and it will be fun as long as you and your group are on the same page.
Because, by the CR system, that monk should be able to handle a minotaur alone. That's something that can and will crop up in real games (and has for us more than once). If he can't he's useless. It was an example of my point, not an end-all, be-all, for certain.

As for catering to the monk, why don't we IMPROVE him so his mechanical defects no longer matter? Why leave them there? "We can rebuild him, we have the technology!"

As a DM, I am capable of catering to the weakest link, yes. I am also capable of rebuilding that link to be stronger, so that I no longer need to cater to it, and it can function as it was intended to all along. Which should I do? It makes sense to me that I should improve the weak link, not lower the game to his level so he can have fun while being incompetent. It's easier for all that way.

@jiriku: Mind PMing me that as well? I'd like to see it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 02:38 PM
If you have 12 hours reading time, you can find out a lot about the discussion in the guide I once made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)where I dared to suggest that built properly a monk can challenge spellcasters of the same level in the core game environment (that was the original assumption of the designers for game balance).*

Did you ever go for any pvp matches with wizards? Doc Roc tells me you went against Talic once and lost.


*EDIT: PPS: A quite long-running playtest for level 12 core characters with a monk I play is currently going on here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6409074#post6409074) You can find a lot of inspiration there how higher level combat can work and what you can do with a monk.
Such as die frequently?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 02:38 PM
I have a heavily houseruled monk that stays more true to the feel of the PHB monk.

What is the feel of the PHB monk, exactly? The only feel I get is "quirky" because of all of its random and useless abilities.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 02:42 PM
This.

From way back....

I'd say that monks are underpowered.

My reason?

Morris the Mock Monk.
Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)

Morris will have exactly the same ability scores as a 20th-level Monk. Morris has all six of the monk's Bonus Feats, while the Monk can only have three of them. Fighter has 6 feats (4 fighter and 2 normal) left over between then and 20th level - the Monk only has 7 feats to begin with (8 if a human), so Morris can most likely take all of the same feats that the Monk does by level 20, minus one. He has an average of 20 more hit points than the monk by 20th level. He has a higher BAB, which means he can hit more often than an equivalent-level Monk. Morris Power Attacks for at least 3 every time; with his Weapon Specialization, this means he's hitting as hard as a 20th-level monk starting at 12th level. (Except his attack bonus is still 2 better than the monk). Morris can wear enchantable armor while fighting, which costs less than the Monk's Bracers; he has an AC almost equalling, if not exceeding, the Monk. He can use his enchanted Gauntlets without using a Feat to gain proficiency.

Monk, on the other hand, gets faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, Slow Fall, immunity to diseases, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, immunity to poison, Dimension door 1/day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, etherealness (monk level) rounds per day, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

But several of the Monk's bonuses can be gained by magic items. The Fighter can afford these, since he's paying less for his armor. Ring of Feather Fall, Periapt of Health OR Periapt of Proof against Poison (can't have both on at once), widgets of Etherealness and Dimension Door 1/day.

So, Monk's advantages: Faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, immunity to diseases OR poison, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

That's it. Those are the only advantages a real monk has over Morris, who has deliberately left his normal role to do what the Monk is supposed to be able to do. (I'm not going to do the stats, but I suspect that any advantages the extra Flurry attacks would give the Monk are rather small).

Old myths die hard ... :smallsmile:

Morris the mock monk unarmed combat performance at level 20:
Attack bonus:
+22/+17/+12/+7, doing 1d3+4+STR damage each (or average 6 without STR).
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.65*6+0.4*6+0.15*6+0.05*6=8 damage per round.

True Monk unarmed combat performance at level 20 (also takes weapon focus- unarmed strike and improved natural attack):
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, doing 4d8+STR damage each. (or average 18 without STR)
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.35*18+0.35*18+0.35*18+0.1*18*0.05*18=22 damage per round


True Monk has 20 stunning fist uses per day, Mock monk has 5.
True Monk has improved grapple and improved trip without needing DEX and INT of 13, thus able to put more points into STR (less MAD).
True Monk has quivering palm on top. Mock monk has nothing of that kind.
True Monk has tumble as class skill to get better fighting defensively and avoid AoO.
True Monk can avoid combat through higher movement and heal. Mock monk is left behind.
True Monk can have his fists enchanted with GMW and holy sword. Mock Monk not.

That's settled, I guess.:smallbiggrin:
A fighter is great in combat, but not at the monk's combat style.

- Giacomo

Paulus
2009-10-22, 02:43 PM
Because, by the CR system, that monk should be able to handle a minotaur alone. That's something that can and will crop up in real games (and has for us more than once). If he can't he's useless. It was an example of my point, not an end-all, be-all, for certain.

As for catering to the monk, why don't we IMPROVE him so his mechanical defects no longer matter? Why leave them there? "We can rebuild him, we have the technology!"

As a DM, I am capable of catering to the weakest link, yes. I am also capable of rebuilding that link to be stronger, so that I no longer need to cater to it, and it can function as it was intended to all along. Which should I do? It makes sense to me that I should improve the weak link, not lower the game to his level so he can have fun while being incompetent. It's easier for all that way.


I never said you couldn't in fact if you feel like you need to go ahead, it all a part of the group working together. That's part of what I was saying. Jeeze everyone is making it out like I'm a diehard monk defender saying they don't need to be changed. I"m simply saying you can play whatever you want without worry because you and your group will think of something together. As opposed to simply ignoring you for your choices and treating you like garbage because of those choices. It's a social game, a team game, it's alright to have weaknesses, even glaring weaknesses. You could even play a commoner ina group of teir 1s and still have fun as long as you and your group are on the same page.

It's about fun, not about the monk or the system, sheesh. I advocate the fun and the group over optimization or system confrontation any day. That's all. Goodness!

Myrmex
2009-10-22, 02:45 PM
I never said you couldn't in fact if you feel like you need to go ahead, it all a part of the group working together. That's part of what I was saying. Jeeze everyone is making it out like I'm a diehard monk defender saying they don't need to be changed. I"m simply saying you can play whatever you want without worry because you and your group will think of something together. As opposed to simply ignoring you for your choices and treating you like garbage because of those choices. It's a social game, a team game, it's alright to have weaknesses, even glaring weaknesses. You could even play a commoner ina group of teir 1s and still have fun as long as you and your group are on the same page.

It's about fun, not about the monk or the system, sheesh. I advocate the fun and the group over optimization or system confrontation any day. That's all. Goodness!

Unless you tell your fellow players "hey, I am going to play one of the weakest characters in the game, you all need to either play equally weak characters or build around mine," you aren't going to be doing much, at all. I wish it weren't so, but the monk is awful. It's awful in actual play, and in theoretical play.

And what do you mean by "work together?" I can see anything and a rogue flanking an opponent for great success, but the success here is the rogue's sneak attack. I can see a bard singing, a wizard casting haste, a cleric putting up bless, and a fighter tripping as all examples of working together, but what is the monk doing? I just don't see pure monk as offering much besides a flank, and without the heavy armor of a fighter, he's going to make a nice target (unless he's glittering like an xmas tree in magic items or has 50 pb).


I won't get into personal attacks with you, thank you very much. Move along.

What are you talking about?
*is confused*

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 02:48 PM
Did you ever go for any pvp matches with wizards? Doc Roc tells me you went against Talic once and lost.

No, I never had a pvp match against Talic. Would you like one after some more encounters of the level 12 test of spite monkening?
We'd have to forget our differences in that animal companion vs fighter duel and make a fresh start ...


Such as die frequently?

I have the feeling that your wizard blacked out more often so far ...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

arguskos
2009-10-22, 02:49 PM
I never said you couldn't in fact if you feel like you need to go ahead, it all a part of the group working together. That's part of what I was saying. Jeeze everyone is making it out like I'm a diehard monk defender saying they don't need to be changed. I"m simply saying you can play whatever you want without worry because you and your group will think of something together. As opposed to simply ignoring you for your choices and treating you like garbage because of those choices. It's a social game, a team game, it's alright to have weaknesses, even glaring weaknesses. You could even play a commoner ina group of teir 1s and still have fun as long as you and your group are on the same page.

It's about fun, not about the monk or the system, sheesh. I advocate the fun and the group over optimization or system confrontation any day. That's all. Goodness!
Your posts always have a very confrontational tone, that's why I got a touch prickly. Sorry bout that. :smallwink:

Anyways, yes, any group that ignores a player, for any reason, is a bad group, I'll agree (****, who doesn't?). Then again, that's not what we're discussing, and so is tangential AT BEST to this discussion.

In this discussion, a clinical debate on the usefulness of monks from a by-the-numbers viewpoint, there is really no debating that they are sadly subpar compared to their comrades, the martial characters. Is this good or bad is not for me to say, simply that it is.

Course, I never say no, I just like offering better alternatives, like a number of solid monk rewrites I've seen (and lost, sadly). I have the feeling we're on the same page Paulus, just talkin' past one another. :smallwink:

AstralFire
2009-10-22, 02:50 PM
Fixing the monk without overhauling it:

- Stunning Fist grants (1+Char Level/5) usage per encounter, rather than (Monk Class Level+Non-Monk Class Level/4) usage per day.
- Make stunning fist work on everything.
- Let Flurry of Blows add attacks anytime you get an attack - charge, standard action, spring attack.
- Advance the Monk's AC bonus by 1 (so a minimum of 1, max of 5)
- Abundant Step functions once an hour.
- Quivering Palm functions once a day. It is not used up if it fails.
- DR 1/- at 4th level, increasing by 1 every 4 levels after, to a maximum of DR 5/- at 20th.
- Full slow fall benefit at sixth level.
- Tongues at tenth level.
- At 14th level: Leap of the Clouds (Su): The monk can halve the difficulty class for any jump made. The monk can jump once in mid-air. Slow fall no longer requires being adjacent to a wall.
- At 18th level: Eye of the Sun and Moon (Su): The monk gains Blindsight out to 30 feet.
- Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Lawful and Magic.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 02:59 PM
Old myths die hard ... :smallsmile:

Morris the mock monk unarmed combat performance at level 20:
Attack bonus:
+22/+17/+12/+7, doing 1d3+4+STR damage each (or average 6 without STR).
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.65*6+0.4*6+0.15*6+0.05*6=8 damage per round.

True Monk unarmed combat performance at level 20 (also takes weapon focus- unarmed strike and improved natural attack):
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, doing 4d8+STR damage each. (or average 18 without STR)
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.35*18+0.35*18+0.35*18+0.1*18*0.05*18=22 damage per round

AC30 seems low at level 20. Not ridiculously low, but still, a bit subpar. As AC climbs, the monks lower attack bonus is increasingly problematic.

Oh yeah...and monks belt means the mock monk gets a d8 for unarmed damage, not a d3. That alone should be enough for a clear damage win.


True Monk has 20 stunning fist uses per day, Mock monk has 5.

How many stunning fists per day do you need?


True Monk has improved grapple and improved trip without needing DEX and INT of 13, thus able to put more points into STR (less MAD).

Not really. Yeah, you *can* dump those, but dumping dex has other problems. At most, this is a coupla points difference.


True Monk has quivering palm on top. Mock monk has nothing of that kind.

Quivering palm has a sufficiently low DC as to be essentially worthless at level 20.


True Monk has tumble as class skill to get better fighting defensively and avoid AoO.

If you're dumping int, do your skills really matter?


True Monk can avoid combat through higher movement and heal. Mock monk is left behind.

Higher movement really does quite little for avoiding combat. If you really want movement rate though, you could drop what, one level on barbarian? I figure that rage would probably help the mock monk out anyhow.


True Monk can have his fists enchanted with GMW and holy sword. Mock Monk not.

Mock Monk can use actual magic weapons and swords, and start doing even more damage. Win!

Paulus
2009-10-22, 03:01 PM
Your posts always have a very confrontational tone, that's why I got a touch prickly. Sorry bout that. :smallwink:

Holly crap!? SERIOUSLY!? I had no idea oh my god I feel so bad now. :smallfrown: How can I change that!?

As far as I know I was just stating my opinion on fun over effectiveness. I didn't mean to make anybody feel bad at ALL. I am truly sorry.:smalleek:




Anyways, yes, any group that ignores a player, for any reason, is a bad group, I'll agree (****, who doesn't?). Then again, that's not what we're discussing, and so is tangential AT BEST to this discussion.

In this discussion, a clinical debate on the usefulness of monks from a by-the-numbers viewpoint, there is really no debating that they are sadly subpar compared to their comrades, the martial characters. Is this good or bad is not for me to say, simply that it is.

Course, I never say no, I just like offering better alternatives, like a number of solid monk rewrites I've seen (and lost, sadly). I have the feeling we're on the same page Paulus, just talkin' past one another. :smallwink:

I though we were discussing why the monk sucks and was just popping in to say it really doesn't because I advocate fun over effectiveness, and where there is a will there is a way. I am truly mortified I try to sound polite if not informative about my opinions. I had no idea I was coming off like that on the forums, no wonder Curmy and everyone else has been (to me) attacking my opinions for being opinions. I never knew. I really don't know what else to say. How can I make up for it?


What are you talking about?
*is confused*

Apparently everything wrongly, please ignore my posts. I am sorry to have troubled you.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 03:01 PM
Because, by the CR system, that monk should be able to handle a minotaur alone. That's something that can and will crop up in real games (and has for us more than once). If he can't he's useless. It was an example of my point, not an end-all, be-all, for certain.


Continuing to try to provide evidence:
Core Level 4 monk, going against a minotaur.
1. Human, STR 15 start, stat gain level 4 to STR 16, buffed with enlarge person (potion, wand or fellow pc buff), STR now at 18.
Total grapple modifier: +15 (with improved grapple feat, large size, +3 BAB and +4 STR bonus).
2. Likely higher initiative with improved iniative feat. Monk charges from up to 80ft away.
Make touch attack to grapple from 10ft. Attack bonus is +8 (3 BAB, +4 STR, -1 size, +2 charge). Auto-hits vs touch AC of minotaur.
3. Grapple check +15 likely wins vs that of minotaur (+14 only).
4. Damage is 2d6+4. Minotaur in grapple (could now be sneaked by fellow party rogue even though minotaurs are never flat-footed).
5. In subsequent rounds, the monk has the advantage and could even try to flurry/pin the minotaur.
It gets worse for the minotaur when a half-orc is assumed and/or a monk putting more points into STR (for instance, thus starting STR of 19). He can afford it since he does not need a DEX 15 (do not forget the enlarge penalty to DEX) to keep his improved grapple feat in enlarged form.

- Giacomo

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-22, 03:02 PM
@Tokiko: I personally dislike ToB, the campaign was Core only anyways, and I'd just finished playing a druid, and was in the mood for combat, not spells or bears. :smallwink: But yeah, I know.


That's the point. With awesome rolls, I want to gimp myself. If I roll 18/18/16/16/16/15 (which I did once), I play a monk (or a Samurai or some NPC class; but never Truenamer). I already powergame; add awesome rolls and that awesome havoc is ruining my games.

Even better idea then. If you roll awesome stats like that, play something really MAD, like most gish builds. Here's how you lower your power: Pick one side of the gish, and only use that side exclusively, but pick feats and class features as though both were equally important. Concentrate on Batman type buffing, stuff that makes everyone else look good.

Now when the time comes that you need to save the day or bad stuff just plain happens pull a proverbial Yoda, draw your lightsaber and go crazy. It's a lot easier to change your role on the fly, than to change your class on the fly. Be modest afterward, too.

It's just.. it makes bunnies cry when you roll 4 18's and use them to make a monk. :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 03:05 PM
Continuing to try to provide evidence:
Core Level 4 monk, going against a minotaur.
1. Human, STR 15 start, stat gain level 4 to STR 16, buffed with enlarge person (potion, wand or fellow pc buff), STR now at 18.
Potions cost 250 gp a pop, you can't use wands without ranks in UMD, and having a PC buff you doesn't count as Monk vs Minotaur, it's Monk & PC vs Minotaur.


2. Likely higher initiative with improved iniative feat. Monk charges from up to 80ft away.
Make touch attack to grapple from 10ft. Attack bonus is +8 (3 BAB, +4 STR, -1 size, +2 charge). Auto-hits vs touch AC of minotaur.
No such thing as an auto hit, as a natural one is always a miss. But you have 95%.

Still, you're assuming you can charge. Can't in a dungeon, or in a maze.


3. Grapple check +15 likely wins vs that of minotaur (+14 only).
In what world does a 5% higher chance of success mean a likely victory?



It gets worse for the minotaur when a half-orc is assumed and/or a monk putting more points into STR (for instance, thus starting STR of 19). He can afford it since he does not need a DEX 15 (do not forget the enlarge penalty to DEX) to keep his improved grapple feat in enlarged form.


Pour points in your strength? What's your Con, how's your HP, what's your AC, and how many skill points do you get off of Int to cross class into UMD for your Wand of Enlarged Person?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 03:08 PM
No, I never had a pvp match against Talic.
My apologies, it wasn't vs a wizard, it was vs an ECL6 dire lion. (I believe the lion won?)


Would you like one after some more encounters of the level 12 test of spite monkening?
You mean you have never pvp'd a wizard, yet you are saying that it is a fact that monks can do so and win?

I want to be absolutely clear on this point before we go any further.



I have the feeling that your wizard blacked out more often so far ...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

You really should be keeping track of your own defeats and victories. You've knocked me out twice and been killed twice yourself.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 03:10 PM
AC30 seems low at level 20. Not ridiculously low, but still, a bit subpar. As AC climbs, the monks lower attack bonus is increasingly problematic.

No, it is not.
1) do not forget that the ACs of high level opponents assume that the pcs have equipment.
2) The monk's higher number of attacks and way higher unarmed damage put him clearly ahead in the core environment. This does not change, either, by the way, outside of core, since the monk makes more use out of new ways to increase attack bonuses and damage size increases.

Oh yeah...and monks belt means the mock monk gets a d8 for unarmed damage, not a d3. That alone should be enough for a clear damage win.

No, it is not. 1d3 becomes 1d8 instead, or 4.5 instead of 2.

How many stunning fists per day do you need?

Well, for four encounters/day it is nice to have quite a few of them.

Not really. Yeah, you *can* dump those, but dumping dex has other problems. At most, this is a coupla points difference.

It matters a lot for the bonus feats, in particular at low levels (see also my minotaur combat example).

Quivering palm has a sufficiently low DC as to be essentially worthless at level 20.

Well, it means that in one strike, you COULD force an enemy to one more save on top of the stunning fist. It's better, and that is all that counts.

If you're dumping int, do your skills really matter?

Yes, they do. Because they can do nice things for you even in unarmed combat.

Higher movement really does quite little for avoiding combat. If you really want movement rate though, you could drop what, one level on barbarian? I figure that rage would probably help the mock monk out anyhow.

Movement matters a lot in combat.
And the comparison was unarmed fighter vs monk, not unarmed barbarian vs monk (the barbarian would also lose btw since his higher rage STR only replaces the Weapon Specialisations)

Mock Monk can use actual magic weapons and swords, and start doing even more damage. Win!

No. First of all, Mock Monk then admits defeat in unarmed combat (which was the original point of discussion). And then, unarmed base damage eventually surpasses all weapon base damage. This has a huge effect for size stacking of damage dice.

- Giacomo

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-22, 03:11 PM
Still, you're assuming you can charge. Can't in a dungeon, or in a maze. Solid point. Charge is a fragile maneuver.


In what world does a 5% higher chance of success mean a likely victory?It's actually more like a 10-15% higher chance, as the higher mod wins ties. However, let's assume the minotaur has a potion of bull's strength, that it gets to use in a precombat round, much like the monk got with Enlarge Person.

Now that goes the other way. And Minotaurs do have treasure, which can include such potions.

ken-do-nim
2009-10-22, 03:20 PM
FWIW, I'll chime in. I played a monk up to 16th level in a campaign that converted from 3.0 to 3.5 when my character was around 12th level. I rolled awesome ability scores, and I will say that for much of the campaign, my monk was the toughest character in the party.

Or so I thought.

Turns out my monk was the toughest because I had a long-standing agreement with some of the party spellcasters to buff my monk first in danger situations. Monks take buffs really well. Eventually the player of the wizard moved out of town, and a new character was brought in who didn't have any buffs for my monk. Guess what? My monk started to suck.

I still think my monk would have been fine up to about level 12 or so, but after that buffs make a big difference. What's nice about monks is that spells like magic vestment and greater magic weapon are useful for them when they can't help other members of the party.

FoE
2009-10-22, 03:23 PM
Monks suck because they inspire a small sect of players to defend them to the point of irrationality. They're like three-legged horses whose owners insist they're destined to win the Kentucky Derby.

Otodetu
2009-10-22, 03:23 PM
Potions cost 250 gp a pop, you can't use wands without ranks in UMD, and having a PC buff you doesn't count as Monk vs Minotaur, it's Monk & PC vs Minotaur.


No such thing as an auto hit, as a natural one is always a miss. But you have 95%.

Still, you're assuming you can charge. Can't in a dungeon, or in a maze.


In what world does a 5% higher chance of success mean a likely victory?



Pour points in your strength? What's your Con, how's your HP, what's your AC, and how many skill points do you get off of Int to cross class into UMD for your Wand of Enlarged Person?

This.

Btw
Our group of gods have a monk 8 with full bab that replaced flurry with the decisive strike alternative feature, worked out fine.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 03:27 PM
Running this round of calculations with correct unarmed damage, and 20 strength because, frankly, if you can't get up to 20 strength at level 20 as a melee character, you have issues.

Morris the mock monk unarmed combat performance at level 20:
Attack bonus:
+22/+17/+12/+7, doing 1d8+4+5 (or average 13.5).
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means (0.65+0.6+0.15+0.05)*13.5=19.575 avg dmg.

True Monk unarmed combat performance at level 20 (also takes weapon focus- unarmed strike and improved natural attack):
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, doing 4d8+5. (or average 22)
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.35*22+0.35*22+0.35*22+0.1*22*0.05*22=26.4 avg dmg

Fighter mod: dmg*1.45
Monk mod: dmg*1.2
Note that this means that as strength gets higher, or as AC gets higher, monk damage gets comparatively smaller.

Other notes: You had the odds of hitting multiplier too low for some of the fighters attacks. Obviously, this affects average damage as well.

So, even in a relatively optimal comparison for the monk, the fighter does comparatively decent damage. Of course, he could just pick up an actual magical weapon, and with no specializing in it whatsoever, outdamage the monk, but hey...even literally gimped into fake monkhood, he's doing pretty decent.

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-22, 03:39 PM
Flayerman, several people here can offer you alternative monk classes, but most of them don't really have the feel or style of the PHB monk any more. I have a heavily houseruled monk that stays more true to the feel of the PHB monk. You might find some usable ideas in it. I am at work now and don't have access to it, but I'll post it for you in 4-5 hours when I get home.

Oi, that's dissing the hard work of homebrewers!! I could say the same of mine, but...that I leave to the distinction of the other playgrounders. However, I can show the fruits of my work (and also add the fruits of other homebrewers as well) so that Flayerman the OP can make a solid choice.

To rectify this mistake, given that apparently homebrews are fair game...
Pathfinder Monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#monk) - make your own judgment about it. It isn't a huge change from the original Monk, and it still doesn't affect the major problems. It does some nice stuff, such as adding a ki pool (and such a tasty feature couldn't be left merely untouched and unimproved...) And yes, it's no homebrew. Though I feel it's home-brewish...

Monk rework (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2276450&postcount=33) - by Lord Iames, claimed from the homebrew compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120075). Can't say much about this one.

Monk of the Way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29762) - by Pax Chi. Old monk, stripped from most of its abilities...NOW WITH MANEUVERS!!!!

Tattooed Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111792) - by Pramxnim. PrC turned base class.

The "How-It-Should-Be" Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238) - by Fax Celestis. Might consider the Rebirth aspect as a whole, since it's strongly tied to that re-envisioning of 3.5.

Monk re-envisioning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125773) - by Ziegander. I best left you to see it, OP.

Monk Alternate Class Features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126512) - by Lysander. It's mostly adding to the already existing Monk rather than rewriting it, more of a "patch" than a fix.

Monk in 10 levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125308) - by the Penny Dreadfuls. If you wish to test it, you just need to go to the Test of Spite page and build one at your taste. And yes, it is meant to go 10 levels.

and finally, on shameless self-promotion; my Monk tinkerings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) - mostly reworked the Monk by adding the ki pool. I won't say more than that.

If, on the other hand, the idea is to use only WotC materials, consider that Stunning Fist gets moderately better with feats from Complete Warrior, that the Monk might as well look for Belt of Magnificence (expensive as heck, tho; doing a semi-BoM as per the MiC rules for adding common item effects can work too), and that you should cater to one of few things: either to boost your damage to unthinkable levels (INA + some resizing), reducing MAD (by using something like Weapon Finesse or Intuitive Attack, plus other feats to make more of a few stats). Also, Necklace of Natural Attacks; by far, one of the best ways to enchant attacks (though might be a tad hard if you don't have Savage Species)

As for UMD Monks...I pointed this to Giacomo, but for the benefit of everybody else: there's a fighting style in Dragon that actually boosts UMD if you're a full Monk. Has something to do with Wee Jas, and sacrificing all your feats so that at 6th level you add 1/2 your Monk level to UMD checks (which, coupled with ranks and such means an actually respectable UMD roll...) I'll limit to this since I don't want sir Roland to close this thread.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 03:40 PM
Potions cost 250 gp a pop, you can't use wands without ranks in UMD, and having a PC buff you doesn't count as Monk vs Minotaur, it's Monk & PC vs Minotaur.

Potions should cost 50gp, it is a misprint. And even 250 gp means that at level 4 you can have quite a few of them.
So enlarge is just fine, even without high enough UMD for a wand at that level. Ignoring wealth distribution recommendations (not wbl total!) of DMG p. 199 you could even just get a permancie'd enlargement for 3,050 gp from an npc.


No such thing as an auto hit, as a natural one is always a miss. But you have 95%.

Auto-hit is commonly referred to as only missing on a "1". Again no real objection to what I said.


Still, you're assuming you can charge. Can't in a dungeon, or in a maze.

Why can't you charge in a dungeon?
And even so, let's then just assume the monk just moves within 10ft of the minotaur. 90% hit chance is not that bad, either.


In what world does a 5% higher chance of success mean a likely victory?

In our world. Because a 5% higher chance means that a victory is likely. And not unlikely.
And in this case, it is even higher, since in case of a tie, the higher grapple mod wins. So it is 60% winning chance approx. for EACH grapple check done. This adds up. In particular since the minotaur does less damage on a won grapple check (or attacking with its horns in grapple at -4).


Pour points in your strength? What's your Con, how's your HP, what's your AC, and how many skill points do you get off of Int to cross class into UMD for your Wand of Enlarged Person?

This depends on the point buy, but a good array with 28 pt buy is
STR 15, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHR 8. Half-orc means STR 17, INT 8 and CHR 6.
And a wand of enlarge person is not necessary, as demonstrated.


My apologies, it wasn't vs a wizard, it was vs an ECL6 dire lion. (I believe the lion won?)

Nice of you to bring that up. Talic did a level 6 core grapple challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4449483#post4449483) to show how bad a monk is in grappling. However, my monk build performed best against all challengers (he was barely beating by a dire lion in the third combat after cakewalking through a cloaker and then troll encounter).
Talic soon lost interest and the test was not continued.


You mean you have never pvp'd a wizard, yet you are saying that it is a fact that monks can do so and win?

I want to be absolutely clear on this point before we go any further.

Yes, I never pvp'd a wizard with a monk (although I did with a fighter and won). And I wonder how many core pvps you did with all classes vs monks to maintain that they suck so much.:smallwink:
But my challenge stands: let's do a core monk vs core wizard pvp in test of spite. You can choose the non-epic level, if you like (although most will find the usual playing range of 3-12some most informative). I only ask that we wait a bit because I intend to focus on the current playtests.


You really should be keeping track of your own defeats and victories. You've knocked me out twice and been killed twice yourself.

Well, Jaya was once slain by shadows and knocked out twice by Gladiator. Gladiator died twice.
But let's not take these performances too seriously right now - there should be way more encounters for better judgment,.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 03:42 PM
As for UMD Monks...I pointed this to Giacomo, but for the benefit of everybody else: there's a fighting style in Dragon that actually boosts UMD if you're a full Monk. Has something to do with Wee Jas, and sacrificing all your feats so that at 6th level you add 1/2 your Monk level to UMD checks (which, coupled with ranks and such means an actually respectable UMD roll...) I'll limit to this since I don't want sir Roland to close this thread.
Weren't the feats one of the highlights of the Monk class?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 03:42 PM
How many stunning fists per day do you need?

Well, for four encounters/day it is nice to have quite a few of them.

You can't seriously tell me you average five stunning fists per encounter. If level appropriate CR fights are lasting an average of five rounds each, thats already pretty long.


Not really. Yeah, you *can* dump those, but dumping dex has other problems. At most, this is a coupla points difference.

It matters a lot for the bonus feats, in particular at low levels (see also my minotaur combat example).

Wait...how do you get around the minimum 13 dex required for stunning fist? Also, the accompanying wis requirement, which fighters can happily dump? Seems to me you haven't gained anything at all there.


Quivering palm has a sufficiently low DC as to be essentially worthless at level 20.

Well, it means that in one strike, you COULD force an enemy to one more save on top of the stunning fist. It's better, and that is all that counts.

If you're marginally better than a joke character parodying your class, I wouldn't call that a win.


If you're dumping int, do your skills really matter?

Yes, they do. Because they can do nice things for you even in unarmed combat.

Not if you're dumping int and the fighter you compare against isn't. You can't have it both ways. Class skills don't matter much if you don't have points.


Higher movement really does quite little for avoiding combat. If you really want movement rate though, you could drop what, one level on barbarian? I figure that rage would probably help the mock monk out anyhow.

Movement matters a lot in combat.
And the comparison was unarmed fighter vs monk, not unarmed barbarian vs monk (the barbarian would also lose btw since his higher rage STR only replaces the Weapon Specialisations)

The point is that a monk can be replicated by subpar builds in other classes. Which class is pretty irrelevant. Rage doesn't just boost strength, btw.

Oh, btw, the monk has a lower hit die than the fighter, so there's another loss.


Mock Monk can use actual magic weapons and swords, and start doing even more damage. Win!

No. First of all, Mock Monk then admits defeat in unarmed combat (which was the original point of discussion). And then, unarmed base damage eventually surpasses all weapon base damage. This has a huge effect for size stacking of damage dice.

- Giacomo

The point of the mock monk is to show how dramatically the monk falls short as a class. It's not intended to be *exactly* like a monk in every respect.

Weapon base damage isn't entirely the point. You can put nice enchantments on weapons. You can get reach on weapons.

Size stacking works on everyone, not just the monk. I'm presuming that we're comparing equivalent sizes for the purposes of comparison, and medium is probably the most standard size.

Flayerman
2009-10-22, 03:43 PM
Fascinating! That's a pretty healthy choice of things to examine. I really appreciate the information being pumped out here, thanks everybody!

EDIT: Besides we all know the real way to do a DBZ Monk is to play a Warlock and flavor all the invokations as Kung Fu moves! :P

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 03:50 PM
I have spoilered the rest because this following quote really makes me rage.


Potions should cost 50gp, it is a misprint.
Never corrected in errata. Given that you're the one who loves RAW so much, it pains me to see you playing fast and loose with it when it suits you to.

If you want to go RAW, go RAW. That means accepting the expensive potion, not claiming it was a misprint when there is no evidence for it. The designers never said so, and it was never corrected in any editions of the PHB, in any SRD, or the PHB errata. There is no basis for modifying RAW like that just to suit your argument, Giacomo.




Why can't you charge in a dungeon?
Apologies. I should have made it clearer. You are unlikely to charge 80 feet in a dungeon or maze. This means that your much vaunted superior movement speed does matter as much.



In our world. Because a 5% higher chance means that a victory is likely. And not unlikely.
But not very likely. Barely likely.


And in this case, it is even higher, since in case of a tie, the higher grapple mod wins.
Only higher though use of potions. Minotaurs can have potions, and then you'd be losing.


Nice of you to bring that up. Talic did a level 6 core grapple challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4449483#post4449483) to show how bad a monk is in grappling. However, my monk build performed best against all challengers (he was barely beating by a dire lion in the third combat after cakewalking through a cloaker and then troll encounter).
A loss is a loss.



Yes, I never pvp'd a wizard with a monk (although I did with a fighter and won). And I wonder how many core pvps you did with all classes vs monks to maintain that they suck so much.:smallwink:
More than none. I guess that puts me ahead of you?


But my challenge stands: let's do a core monk vs core wizard pvp in test of spite. You can choose the non-epic level, if you like (although most will find the usual playing range of 3-12some most informative). I only ask that we wait a bit because I intend to focus on the current playtests.

I do look forward to your smoking bottle shenanigans.


Well, Jaya was once slain by shadows and knocked out twice by Gladiator. Gladiator died twice.
The phrase "blacked out" means to fall unconscious. Giacomo.

Faleldir
2009-10-22, 03:52 PM
PS: Unarmed swordsage from Tome of Battle often comes up as allegedly a fully usable alternative. Won't work without several houserulings. Ask your DM (plus, the ToB maneuver mechanisms may be awkward at first).

Monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes.
If you have ever played a Monk without Simple Weapon proficiency, then you have, by your own logic, used a house rule to make Monks playable. Your argument is worthless.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 03:56 PM
.
So, even in a relatively optimal comparison for the monk, the fighter does comparatively decent damage. Of course, he could just pick up an actual magical weapon, and with no specializing in it whatsoever, outdamage the monk, but hey...even literally gimped into fake monkhood, he's doing pretty decent.

No, he is doing horribly. Try to come up with a more favourable situation for the fighter in core - but there isn't any.
- You somehow added a +0.2 hit chance for the fighter (should be 0.4 instead of 0.6 on second attack)
- The monk does 23 damage on average with STR 20, not 22.
- You forgot to also include STR to the attack bonus. With STR bonus it benefits the monk more.
- You provided the fighter with a monk's belt - a monk could well also have a magic item (say, boots of speed?).

Abstracting from the magical item advantage of the fighter, the average damages per round are:
Fighter: 2.1*13.5=28 damage
Monk: 2.25*23=52 damage.

Result: fighter should not focus on unarmed combat.
Weapon combat is his strength.

- Giacomo

Telonius
2009-10-22, 03:57 PM
Old myths die hard ... :smallsmile:

Morris the mock monk unarmed combat performance at level 20:
Attack bonus:
+22/+17/+12/+7, doing 1d3+4+STR damage each (or average 6 without STR).
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.65*6+0.4*6+0.15*6+0.05*6=8 damage per round.

True Monk unarmed combat performance at level 20 (also takes weapon focus- unarmed strike and improved natural attack):
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6, doing 4d8+STR damage each. (or average 18 without STR)
Against an AC 30 opponent, that means 0.35*18+0.35*18+0.35*18+0.1*18*0.05*18=22 damage per round



That's settled, I guess.:smallbiggrin:
A fighter is great in combat, but not at the monk's combat style.

- Giacomo

That's in the unlikely event you're facing a foe with AC 30. Core CR 20 foes:
Black Dragon (Wyrm): AC 39
Brass Dragon (Ancient): AC 38
Bronze Dragon (Very Old): AC 37
Copper Dragon (Very Old): AC 36
Balor: AC 35
Pit Fiend: AC 40
Red Dragon (old): AC 33
Silver Dragon (old): AC 35
Tarrasque: AC 35
Average AC: 36

You have to get down to CR 17 to find something with an AC of 30 or lower.
Aboleth Mage: AC 18
Marilith: AC 29
Formian Queen: AC 23
Frost Giant Jarl: AC 29

So, yes, if you're fighting things three below your CR, AC 30 is a reasonable assumption. But, for CR 20, you're fighting things that you need a 36 to hit. True Monk needs a natural 20 just to hit, with any of the attacks.
.25*18 = 4.5 damage average
Morris: .35*6+.1*6+.05*6+.05*6 = 3.3 damage (assuming that Improved Natural Attack is the one feat the Monk has that Morris doesn't).

"True Monk has 20 stunning fist uses per day, Mock monk has 5."
When you're only hitting on a natural 20, you'll either burn through those pretty quickly or not use them at all.

"True Monk has improved grapple and improved trip without needing DEX and INT of 13, thus able to put more points into STR (less MAD)."
Strictly speaking, true; but is the Monk really going to completely dump Int and Dex? If Monk wants to get Improved Grapple as the bonus feat, then he'll need 13 Dex if he wants any of his 20 stunning fist attacks.

"True Monk has quivering palm on top. Mock monk has nothing of that kind."
Correct. Once a week, you have a 5% chance of killing something if it fails its a Fort save of somewhere around DC 30. (You have to hit in order for it to take effect).

"True Monk has tumble as class skill to get better fighting defensively and avoid AoO."
Correct.

"True Monk can avoid combat through higher movement and heal. Mock monk is left behind."
Correct. Monk is excellent at running away.

"True Monk can have his fists enchanted with GMW and holy sword. Mock Monk not."
Correct. Morris can't have his fists enhanced with either of those. Instead, he has his Gauntlets enhanced with them.

My point is not that this fighter will be able to out-Monk the Monk. It's that it can do almost everything the Monk can do, with more options besides. The Monk, in its best case scenario, can only do what's been described.

EDIT: Holy Ninjas, batman!

Draz74
2009-10-22, 04:02 PM
So how do you make monks not suck, besides unarmed swordsage? Increase BAB? Make flurry of blows a standard action?

I'm not really proficient in Pathfinder, but in 3.5e:

Boosted BAB is an easy fix, but I personally think it ruins the "feel" of the Monk.

I say:

Boost skill points. Monks have a great class skill list, and don't usually get to use it.
Allow Flurry of Blows extra attacks on any attack, not just on full attacks. (A la the Snap Kick feat.)
Either allow enchanting your fists like a weapon, or encourage Monks to use other Monk weapons by letting them benefit from the Unarmed Strike Damage Progression. If you do that, encourage Monks to still use their Unarmed Strike sometimes by making Flurry of Blows attack only work with the Unarmed Strike (or shuriken).
Speed up the AC bonus progression. +1 AC per 3 Levels wouldn't be terrible.
Houserule some of the other abilities to make them less boring. Slow Fall should just always be half damage, and upgrade to No Damage at high levels. Monk SR should automatically let friendly spells bypass it. Perfect Self should give something that actually matters instead of DR/magic.


These simple changes should make the Monk equal to other non-ToB-but-not-terrible ("Tier 4") melee classes.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 04:02 PM
No, he is doing horribly. Try to come up with a more favourable situation for the fighter in core - but there isn't any.
- You somehow added a +0.2 hit chance for the fighter (should be 0.4 instead of 0.6 on second attack)
- The monk does 23 damage on average with STR 20, not 22.
- You forgot to also include STR to the attack bonus. With STR bonus it benefits the monk more.
- You provided the fighter with a monk's belt - a monk could well also have a magic item (say, boots of speed?).

Abstracting from the magical item advantage of the fighter, the average damages per round are:
Fighter: 2.1*13.5=28 damage
Monk: 2.25*23=52 damage.

Result: fighter should not focus on unarmed combat.
Weapon combat is is strength.

- Giacomo

You want boots of speed? Go nuts. Damage change: 0. Toss in the Monk's belt if you want. Damage change: 0, because epic monk doesn't increase unarmed damage die.

WBL is part of a character, and is part of the original example. Trying to remove that is avoiding the point that much of what the monk has can be replicated inexpensively with magic items.

Any more favorable situation: Higher AC opponents. As already pointed out by me and others, AC30 is low for CR20 core opponents.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-22, 04:05 PM
Monk fix, based on the premise that a monk's main failing is that it cannot do anything no one else can already do better.

Indon
2009-10-22, 04:08 PM
The Monk's greatest capabilities are in personal survivability and defense, which is a very weak strategy in optimized 3.x D&D.

In optimized 3.x D&D, the best defense is having very high offense, and that's something the Monk just doesn't have, and the second-best defense consists of magical capabilities which make offensive capabilities nonapplicable, and the Monk doesn't have many of those either. Just good AC, good saves, and SR.

This is a game where a Tier 4 (that is to say, one of the weaker tiers) character can kill a Balor, solo, in six seconds. Monks can't do that remotely as easily, which is why they're Tier 5.


Monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes.

Generally, RAW interpretation so obscure as to require paging through books and an extensive discussion is not frequently seen in practice, though it's fair game for theoretical character optimization.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 04:11 PM
I have spoilered the rest because this following quote really makes me rage.

Never corrected in errata. Given that you're the one who loves RAW so much, it pains me to see you playing fast and loose with it when it suits you to.

If you want to go RAW, go RAW. That means accepting the expensive potion, not claiming it was a misprint when there is no evidence for it. The designers never said so, and it was never corrected in any editions of the PHB, in any SRD, or the PHB errata. There is no basis for modifying RAW like that, Giacomo.

You know what else is a misprint? The wizard spells per day list. Turns out, the numbers were lower than what the developers intended by a magnitude of ten.

Pharao's Fist, please calm down.
There is a huge difference between having an animal companion drop reduced rocks on someone with no core game mechanism backing that on the one hand and number in a table that does not match at all with all other rules- item creation rules, the wand price and whatever on the other.
For this discussion, it is even irrelevant since even 250 gp enlarge potions are affordable for a lone monk soloing a minotaur. That this kind of cost drops to virtually nothing with a party around only shows the great synergy a group can provide.

Answering in the spoiler:





Auto hit. It meant to automatically hit. You never automatically hit except with magic missile or the like.

Your use of the term is incorrect and it bugs me.

Then I am sorry. I picked that expression up over at the WoTC boards. Since I am not a native speaker, I figured that would be OK to describe what happens when a monk charges the touch AC of a minotaur.

Apologies. I should have made it clearer. You are unlikely to charge 80 feet in a dungeon or maze.

20ft are enough.

A loss is a loss.

But the point of Talic's grappling test was to find out who shows the best grapple performance. And this the monk did. A win is a win.

More than none. I guess that puts me ahead of you?

Could you link one of your vs monk pvps with core rulees? I'd like to have a look.:smallsmile:

I do look forward to your smoking bottle shenanigans.

It is nice to term "shenaningan" as something that easily blocks the majority of wizard attacking spells.

The phrase "blacked out" means to fall unconscious. Giacomo.

Ah, OK, sorry. Another native speaking problem. Also thought that death is a certain variation of "blacking out" :smallsmile:


- Giacomo

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-22, 04:12 PM
Weren't the feats one of the highlights of the Monk class?

It's a Fighting Style. You "sacrifice" your feats for the bonuses. Mostly, you sacrifice the choice of feats for a specific kind of feat; in this case, Skill Focus (UMD). You also get...a +2 to UMD checks from the start, and Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight (so you don't really sacrifice the feats).

I showed it to him since in that sense Gia can say that at least in one way UMD becomes a Monk feature. Not a Core Monk feature, but a Monk feature nonetheless.


Fascinating! That's a pretty healthy choice of things to examine. I really appreciate the information being pumped out here, thanks everybody!

Here to help.

The Monk has somehow turned into a Woobie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie) of sorts. Can't be awesome as the Hollywood/Hong Kong monks, pales in comparison to Monks from other games, and can't even serve as a one-skill wonder build *coughcoughAsuraStrikecoughcough*. So it gets more attention than, say, a Paladin or a Fighter.


EDIT: Besides we all know the real way to do a DBZ Monk is to play a Warlock and flavor all the invokations as Kung Fu moves! :P

Dinnae feed de Fundies!! (Last thing you want is having that association get out of control...)

@Fax: uh...I actually added you in the homebrews...heck, you're right in the middle. Hard to miss: I actually put your name and the name by which your Monk would be best known...

Gametime
2009-10-22, 04:12 PM
- Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Lawful and Magic.

That would probably make more sense as DR 10/Chaotic, since having the DR be overcome by Lawful weapons would feel weird (like having Angels only be killable by Good-aligned weapons).

Other than that, I always get giddy at the prospect of that oh-so-cool looking ability NOT being terrible.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 04:12 PM
Generally, RAW interpretation so obscure as to require paging through books and an extensive discussion is not frequently seen in practice, though it's fair game for theoretical character optimization.

It's a fair point, though. If you're going to criticize another class for a slightly RAW weakness...that applies to your own class as well, someones bound to point out that it really doesn't matter.

In practice, no fair DM is going to enforce something so silly for either class.

Flayerman
2009-10-22, 04:17 PM
Monk is Woobie might be the best description of Monk I've ever seen. I'm compelled to hunt down the Gun-Fu monk I saw on this board and build River Tam. Thanks, thanks a lot. :P

Superglucose
2009-10-22, 04:19 PM
I like the avatar d20's version of the monk. Personally, i always give monks full BAB.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 04:21 PM
Pharao's Fist, please calm down.
You're out of order! This whole court is out of order!


There is a huge difference between having an animal companion drop reduced rocks on someone with no core game mechanism backing that on the one hand
Falling object rules. DM agreed to it.


and number in a table that does not match at all with all other rules- item creation rules, the wand price and whatever on the other.
But it's RAW. When common sense and RAW conflict, RAW must take precedent, or else you aren't really playing by RAW.

And if you aren't playing by RAW, then all of your arguments ring hollow.



Could you link one of your vs monk pvps with core rulees? I'd like to have a look.
No, I'd have to give you a time machine and a plane ticket to the US.

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 04:50 PM
Just one thing: Just because Monk qualifies for feats without stats doesn't do one thing to lessen their MAD. Monk's MAD comes from needing Wis & Dex for AC & class features, Str for damage, to hit & combat maneuvers & Con for HP (and Int for skill points if you plan on making a use of the skill list).

It doesn't matter that Monk can get the feats without stats 'cause you need the stats for other reasons anyways. If Fighter doesn't qualify for Combat Expertise, say due to you playing on Elite Array, he can simply go Mounted Charger or something and ignore it.


If Monk doesn't have the stats though, that's a handicap that cannot be overcome with just a different build; if you don't have the Wis or Dex, your AC and class features will suffer and if you don't have the Str, your offense and combat maneuvers will suffer. That's something no amount of feat access will overcome as the feats themselves don't modify your numbers, just increase your options (even with Weapon Finesse, you're stuck with no damage beyond your base dice).

If Fighter doesn't have Int or Dex, he just does something that doesn't require said stats. If Monk doesn't have them, he's just numerically behind. Fighter can frankly do alright (albeit limited to one real strategic option) with just two high stats in Str & Con. Try making a Monk for your average campaign with only 2 high stats.

Oslecamo
2009-10-22, 04:56 PM
But it's RAW. When common sense and RAW conflict, RAW must take precedent, or else you aren't really playing by RAW.


Weren't you complaining on that match that it didn't make sense for tower shields to grant total cover, despite being what RAW says?:smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 04:59 PM
Weren't you complaining on that match that it didn't make sense for tower shields to grant total cover, despite being what RAW says?:smallwink:

But I hate RAW.

Also, I was arguing that a Tower Shield does not protect you against your entire square being crushed by a huge sack with rocks in it.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 04:59 PM
Telonius, Tyndmyr.

Please, reconsider.

The high ACs of CR 20 creatures are designed for characters WITH equipment. WITH equipment, both monk and fighter using unarmed strikes can hit them without breaking sweat.
Monks remains vastly ahead, due to higher base damage and higher number of attacks (one more in fact since he can now use divine power effects).

Even against AC 40 without any items, the monk is way ahead, since he has higher number of attacks and way higher base damage.


So, yes, if you're fighting things three below your CR, AC 30 is a reasonable assumption. But, for CR 20, you're fighting things that you need a 36 to hit. True Monk needs a natural 20 just to hit, with any of the attacks.
.25*18 = 4.5 damage average
Morris: .35*6+.1*6+.05*6+.05*6 = 3.3 damage (assuming that Improved Natural Attack is the one feat the Monk has that Morris doesn't).

Yes. Again showing the monk clearly ahead, even in this situation. And this is theoretical excercise only, since in normal games as I have shown the monk catapults ahead the more stats and items are added.

"True Monk has 20 stunning fist uses per day, Mock monk has 5."
When you're only hitting on a natural 20, you'll either burn through those pretty quickly or not use them at all.

As does the fighter. With less uses.
Again: you can question that the advantages ever matter or come up. But still they are there. And they come into full force when the typical core setting with full wbl is assumed.
A fighter without items SUCKS. BIG TIME. (no armour, nor weapons).
A monk with all his special gadgets and even able to fly through etheralness at those levels? Not so much.

"True Monk has improved grapple and improved trip without needing DEX and INT of 13, thus able to put more points into STR (less MAD)."
Strictly speaking, true; but is the Monk really going to completely dump Int and Dex? If Monk wants to get Improved Grapple as the bonus feat, then he'll need 13 Dex if he wants any of his 20 stunning fist attacks.

Now that is a good point - I overlooked the prereq of stunning fist. Thus, take stunning fist as bonus feat at level one and only need DEX 13 for grapple. Whereas the fighter needs INT 13, WIS 13 and DEX 13 ON TOP of his STR.
Again, advantage monk in unarmed combat.

"True Monk has quivering palm on top. Mock monk has nothing of that kind."
Correct. Once a week, you have a 5% chance of killing something if it fails its a Fort save of somewhere around DC 30. (You have to hit in order for it to take effect).

But again: advantage monk in unarmed combat.

"True Monk has tumble as class skill to get better fighting defensively and avoid AoO."
Correct.

Good.

"True Monk can avoid combat through higher movement and heal. Mock monk is left behind."
Correct. Monk is excellent at running away.

And heal. Do not forget heal. Run away, heal, charge back. He basically decides when and how long the unarmed combat takes place. Clear advantage.

"True Monk can have his fists enchanted with GMW and holy sword. Mock Monk not."
Correct. Morris can't have his fists enhanced with either of those. Instead, he has his Gauntlets enhanced with them.

True monk can also use gauntlets and divine power to be exactly equal to the fighter in this regard. And still win with way higher damage.

My point is not that this fighter will be able to out-Monk the Monk. It's that it can do almost everything the Monk can do, with more options besides. The Monk, in its best case scenario, can only do what's been described.

No, the monk in the scenarios you provided still has some spare feats, and a vast array of class abilities that the fighter does not have. He can scout, party face, bypass barriers and whole legions of enemies.
Again: the fighter should put his feats to better use than being a very suboptimal unarmed fighter.

- Giacomo

woodenbandman
2009-10-22, 05:02 PM
Monks suck because Giacomo's monk example of optimized VoP had an attack bonus of +27 or so, and if you're not pushing +40 from various sources (+12 strength at bare minimum, +5 weapon, and let's say that you have weapon focus for a +1 and full BAB), you might as well just not. And that's, like, the barest minimum for a character to have at level 20. If you have less than that you don't hit, you don't damage, you just suck. Also, 2hW is >> Monk unarmed strike, unless you do that funky multiclassing/size increasing build and do 100d8 per attack.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 05:16 PM
"True Monk has 20 stunning fist uses per day, Mock monk has 5."
When you're only hitting on a natural 20, you'll either burn through those pretty quickly or not use them at all.

As does the fighter. With less uses.

Well, the fighter has a much higher to hit. Thus, despite having fewer uses, his stunning fists that connect are much more frequent. This is pretty valuable in itself for the sake of reliably shutting down dangerous opponents, in addition to the simple balancing between the two.


No, the monk in the scenarios you provided still has some spare feats, and a vast array of class abilities that the fighter does not have. He can scout, party face, bypass barriers and whole legions of enemies.
Again: the fighter should put his feats to better use than being a very suboptimal unarmed fighter.

- Giacomo

A monk is a party face? Since when? I didn't realize cha was an important stat for a monk.

Fighters can also scout. No particular reason they can't.

Speed? Boots of Speed and/or a level of barbarian. Actually, I believe there's a trait for that as well. Problem solved. Not that it's much of a problem to begin with, since speed is rarely that important.

The obstacle bypassing is very limited. Slow Fall is highly situational, and is directly inferior to the easily obtainable feather fall. Dimension Door is 1/day, and while nice, doesn't show up until 12th level. IE, the party caster has already been doing this job for a while now. Going ethereal is actually handy, but it doesn't show up until level 19, and even then, it's of rather limited duration. Your round/level is vastly trumped by the casters minute/level, and they get it 1-2 levels earlier as a bonus.

It's not that the idea of a monk is bad...it's that it's just not terribly well put together. Heck, even the multiclass restriction feels needlessly tacked on. Take one level of something else, and no more monk for you.

Vangor
2009-10-22, 05:26 PM
Unarmed Swordsage equals a far greater Monk, in my opinion. For the utter basics:

*No alignment restriction
*No multiclassing restriction
*Same hit die
*Same base attack bonus
*Weaker fortitude save
*About equal skill set
*Two more skills per level

I give this to Swordsage, because while we are speaking of strict twenty levels the alignment and multiclassing will be a factor for everyone. As well, while the additional six fortitude and spot as a class skill is important, a 50-33% (assuming a 10-14 Int) increase in skill points is phenomenal.

As per the features of both:

*Bonus to initiative
*Both possess wisdom to armor
*Persistent weapon focus
*Wisdom synergy for damage on strikes
*Additional saves
*Both receive improved evasion
*Free identification
*Dual boosting
*Lacks a plethora of monk features

While I adore initiative bonuses, additional saves (for those keeping score, the end result is equal totals), and free identification, the Monk has too many things. Immunity to regular diseases and all manner of poisons is neat, an amount of self-healing is always appreciated, slow-falling and speed are good, and who can ignore spell resistance, etherealness, dimension door, instant kill, armor, etc.? The only problem is all of this is easily replicated elsewhere, whereas the advantages of the Swordsage either are not at all or would be in addition to anyway.

Advantage is to the Monk, but merely because both characters are naked. I mean, the armor bonus is defeated with a chain shirt, just a chain shirt.

Now we have maneuvers:

*Six stances known
*Twenty-five maneuvers known
*Twelve maneuvers readied

2d6 sneak attack, concealment, spider climb, easy and mass flanking, air walking, or levitation which gives no penalties for moving 20ft...and those are merely the stances for Shadow Hand, easily switched as a swift action. You possess strikes which can be used every encounter, or recovered as a full-round action, which are as good as death sentences, not to mention tons of others. The Monk would need to expend all of her feats to gain maneuvers and stances which are even useful, and still lacks the initiator level. Wild guess who wins.

Further, we need to consider statistics:

*Both want wisdom
*More dexterity benefit
*Both want constitution
*Needs no strength
*Needs no intelligence

Wisdom is useful for gaining the armor bonus and damage synergy on strikes, and the Monk wants for armor and quivering palm. Constitution is straight forward for both. However, the Monk probably wants a decent intelligence to gain enough good skills, and the Swordsage does not necessarily need any.

But the decisive difference is when a Swordsage takes Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. To do this, the Monk needs Martial Maneuver to gain a requisite maneuver and Martial Stance to gain the stance which Shadow Blade needs. Martial Maneuver itself will become generally less valuable or altogether worthless, and to do this from level one as a Monk you need be Human (no problem) with two flaws (not always available) all focused on those feats.

Advantage is Swordsage, by a significant margin in certain circumstances. I should note Carmendine Monk does negate the slim advantage for intelligence, but I would say the rift caused by needing Dexterity and Strength is more significant.

-----

Sorry for the long rant, and I am certain I missed plenty or might have gotten something wrong, but I figured if we are comparing a fighter to twenty, which no one suggests, to the monk the fighter is meant to mimic, we might as well talk about a class which is heralded constantly for melee which needs do little to compete, and eclipses entirely with an unobtainable feature set.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 05:35 PM
A monk is a party face? Since when? I didn't realize cha was an important stat for a monk.


4+ Int Mod skill points per level. After putting points into Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Jump, Listen, Spot and UMD, you can afford to have some in Diplomacy if you're human with a starting Int of 18, or a non human with an starting Int of 20.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 05:36 PM
Well, yes but...how many monks can afford to start with 18-20 int?

Kylarra
2009-10-22, 05:44 PM
4+ Int Mod skill points per level. After putting points into Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Jump, Listen, Spot and UMD, you can afford to have some in Diplomacy if you're human with a starting Int of 18, or a non human with an starting Int of 20.You forgot Balance

AstralFire
2009-10-22, 05:45 PM
Oh my god not this again

Fax Celestis
2009-10-22, 05:47 PM
@Fax: uh...I actually added you in the homebrews...heck, you're right in the middle. Hard to miss: I actually put your name and the name by which your Monk would be best known...

I, uh...am unobservant.

And actually pretty much just scan monk threads these days.

AslanCross
2009-10-22, 05:51 PM
Probably mentioned already somewhere, but one other good monk build without using Unarmed Swordsage is Monk/Psychic Warrior with Tashalatora. Monk and Psychic Warrior progression FTW.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 06:13 PM
Some more answers before I go to bed ...

@Vangor: the unarmed swordsage does have the advantages you described - but do not forget that a monk can, with his bonus feats, also take ToB maneuvers and items once ToB is in.
And has more 24/7 defensive quailities.
It's a close call imo. Could be clarified with a direct comparison for some levels and a test of spite duel.
Will see if ever I can get to that.


Monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes.
.

That is actually quite a good argument. I'll have a relaxed look at the SRD and PHB later. A first hunch is that since an unarmed strike can be flurried and is provided in the table on flurry attack bonus without any non-proficient penalty, it is a clear indication that no such penalty is included RAW and RAI. But I'll think on it.
Also, there is a whole class and unarmed strike ability description for the monk, whereas there is only one sentence for the unarmed swordsage. It is not even clear what is meant with "unarmed strike progression".


You want boots of speed? Go nuts. Damage change: 0. Toss in the Monk's belt if you want. Damage change: 0, because epic monk doesn't increase unarmed damage die.


Boots of speed add one attack at highest attack bonus (+0.x times average damage) and +1 to hit (0.05 times average damage for each attack).
Quite good, I dare say.


J
If Fighter doesn't have Int or Dex, he just does something that doesn't require said stats. If Monk doesn't have them, he's just numerically behind. Fighter can frankly do alright (albeit limited to one real strategic option) with just two high stats in Str & Con. Try making a Monk for your average campaign with only 2 high stats.

Sorry, no. The fighter is more MAD than the monk.
If fighter doesn't have INT or DEX, he does not get improved trip which is vital for area control he could otherwise do fine with reach weapons.
If a monk does not have INT or DEX, he still can have improved grapple and improved trip and thus has these greatly viable combat otpions.

A monk with just high STR and CON? Can be turned into an excellent grappler (not available for the fighter). Or he could trip everyone trying to reach him in melee.
- AC does not matter vs the enemy you grapple
- get miss chance stuff against other enemies
- WIS is not needed to get the monk bonus to AC. Even without, you'd eventually catch up with the AC of a fighter.



A monk is a party face? Since when? I didn't realize cha was an important stat for a monk.


Diplomacy class skill ..


Fascinating! That's a pretty healthy choice of things to examine. I really appreciate the information being pumped out here, thanks everybody!

EDIT: Besides we all know the real way to do a DBZ Monk is to play a Warlock and flavor all the invokations as Kung Fu moves! :P

In line with T.G. Oscar; glad to have helped.
Monks are a strange animal in 3.5. There are hardly more different views on any aspect of the game.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 06:19 PM
Diplomacy class skill ..

One that you can afford if you are human with an Int of 14 or higher due to needing points in Jump, Balance, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, and UMD. Possibly also K. Arcana and Spellcraft.

Not that you're MAD or anything.

streakster
2009-10-22, 06:24 PM
Enjoy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3871542)

I come back, and I find two monk threads on the front page. Good ol' GITP.:smallbiggrin:

So lets see. We've suggested the unarmed swordsage, a couple people have posted fixes (My personal favorite) (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%28DnD_Class%29), and Giacomo is in the house.

Looks like we're right on schedule, here! Let's start pumping out the pages, people!:smallwink:

AstralFire
2009-10-22, 06:25 PM
Enjoy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3871542)

I come back, and I find two monk threads on the front page. Good ol' GITP.:smallbiggrin:

So lets see. We've suggested the unarmed swordsage, a couple people have posted fixes (My personal favorite) (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%28DnD_Class%29), and Giacomo is in the house.

Looks like we're right on schedule, here! Let's start pumping out the pages, people!:smallwink:

Good to see you back in the house, streaks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 06:25 PM
Oh my god, it's AstralFire!

AstralFire
2009-10-22, 06:28 PM
Oh my god, it's AstralFire!

Yo Yami-G*, let's kick it!

no relation to Kenny G

Fax Celestis
2009-10-22, 06:30 PM
Sorry, no. The fighter is more MAD than the monk.
If fighter doesn't have INT or DEX, he does not get improved trip which is vital for area control he could otherwise do fine with reach weapons.
If a monk does not have INT or DEX, he still can have improved grapple and improved trip and thus has these greatly viable combat otpions.

If you are comparing a monk to a fighter, you are in a sorry state of affairs.

{scrubbed}

Eldariel
2009-10-22, 06:31 PM
Sorry, no. The fighter is more MAD than the monk.
If fighter doesn't have INT or DEX, he does not get improved trip which is vital for area control he could otherwise do fine with reach weapons.
If a monk does not have INT or DEX, he still can have improved grapple and improved trip and thus has these greatly viable combat otpions.

Didn't you read what I typed? The Monk is not viable in pure combat simply because he can't take hits to any degree; especially on low levels, a couple of Kobolds would pincushion him simply because they cannot miss.

Fighter can still be a mounted charger and deal ~300 points of damage per hit on higher levels and has armor & shield on lower levels. Sure, he's a one-trick pony, but at least he has relevant statistics.


A monk with just high STR and CON? Can be turned into an excellent grappler (not available for the fighter). Or he could trip everyone trying to reach him in melee.
- AC does not matter vs the enemy you grapple
- get miss chance stuff against other enemies
- WIS is not needed to get the monk bonus to AC. Even without, you'd eventually catch up with the AC of a fighter.

You won't catch up to Fighter AC; simple Full-Plate and Animated Shield enhanced ensure that. Eventually the Monk will come within ~7 points, but no closer. Miss chances are all fine and dandy once available, but what'll you be doing until then?

The Monk won't be a good grappler in a real campaign, because that's a tactic only viable when fighting single opponents. That won't happen every encounter in a campaign, unless you expect to only fight single opponents not two or more sizes larger than you.

He'd be forced into the tripper role, which is a fine role except he'd be turned into pincushion the first time he runs into opponents with reach, and he only gets the relevant feat on level 6. He'd also need reach weapon proficiency if he plans on doing it properly.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 06:32 PM
A monk with just high STR and CON? Can be turned into an excellent grappler (not available for the fighter). Or he could trip everyone trying to reach him in melee.

With his AC, a few Sneak Attack Rogues with bows would make quick work of him.

T.G. Oskar
2009-10-22, 06:32 PM
Enjoy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3871542)

I come back, and I find two monk threads on the front page. Good ol' GITP.:smallbiggrin:

So lets see. We've suggested the unarmed swordsage, a couple people have posted fixes (My personal favorite) (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_%28DnD_Class%29), and Giacomo is in the house.

Looks like we're right on schedule, here! Let's start pumping out the pages, people!:smallwink:

Well, there's a new one.

Can anyone go to the Woobie page at TV Tropes and suggest the Monk is a Woobie class? Honestly, being worse at combat out of the box, debatably good when optimized, eclipsed by its younger brother Unarmed Swordsage (the only moment where the suggestions of adaptation are widely accepted), beaten badly by RAW, WBL-devouring (and still a bit lacking while at it), cruelly cheated by the Vow of Poverty which prefers to go with Druids or Totemists, cheated out of weapons and armor, more than just replaced by the spellcaster classes, and unable to fill a niche. And while the Bard and Paladin have some heat, the Monk always gets the bigger heat.

Hence, why so many Monk fixes, and threats of putting the Monk to sleep indefinitely. I guess the poor Monk needs a hug. It frickin' screams Woobie.

Also, might as well suggest for Internet Backdraft. Or the equivalent that usually causes attention.

Thatguyoverther
2009-10-22, 06:41 PM
Because oriental flavored classes have no place in an occidental themed game. :smallannoyed:

BRC
2009-10-22, 06:43 PM
Also, though Monks may make good grapplers, in order to use them both you and the DM need to understand, and feel like using, the grapple rules.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 06:53 PM
In optimized 3.x D&D, the best defense is having very high offense, and that's something the Monk just doesn't have, and the second-best defense consists of magical capabilities which make offensive capabilities nonapplicable, and the Monk doesn't have many of those either. Just good AC, good saves, and SR.

This is a game where a Tier 4 (that is to say, one of the weaker tiers) character can kill a Balor, solo, in six seconds. Monks can't do that remotely as easily, which is why they're Tier 5.


Too tempting ... (and still waiting for the laundry to finish) ...
I guess I'll try to focus on examples and playtests from now on (there is 70 pages following my monk guide that I linked above which explains all the theory).

How can a level 20 monk kill a Balor in six seconds? As an extra challenge, I'll keep it core.:smallsmile:
1. You need to land a full attack, since that is the monk's forte. A good way at that level is either to have a polymorphed form with pounce (considered cheesy by some), or get an intelligent item with dimension door. Dimension door makes winning initiative less likely, also at level 20 the monk can reach surpass the balor's +11 initiative with DEX bonus, improved initiative and +1 luck bonus from a stone of good luck.

2. How many attacks will a monk get? Let's see.
3 base, 2 greater flurry, 1 more base with divine power, 1 with haste (say, boots of speed) and 3 more with the TWF tree. A grand 10 total.

4. Now the attack bonus is going to be an issue.
Let's assume a STR of 34 (15 start, 5 stat gains, 4 inherent, 6 enhance, 4 size), large size -1 to hit (from rightuous might), haste +1, weapon focus unarmed strike, BAB 20 (divine power up), GMW or GMF for +5 at lvl 20 (and an unarmed gauntlet +5, holy for off-hand, cold iron, with align weapon), +1 morale (hero's feast), +1 competence (ioun stone).
With a luck stone and improved trip feat, the balor is likely tripped on the first attack for another +4. This provides a grand total full attack bonus of:
+42/+42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27 vs a balor's likely AC of 39 (enhanced with unholy aura up).

5. Damage per hit is with improved natural attack feat 6d8+17 (STR+enhance)=44. 7 each are added to the off-hand attacks from holy enhancement. 15 are deducted from the main attacks due to damage reduction. Also assumed that the fortitude save vs unholy aura DC 26 to avoid losing STR is always made, since the monk can easily have +24 to fort save at level 20 (12 base+5 resistance+5 CON+1 luck+1 competence)

6. Hitting chances are added up to 5*0.95+0.7+0.45=5.9 and 2*0.95+0.7=2.6
5.9*29+2.6*51=304. Enough to kill the balor.

7. It is probably easier even with two gauntlets and not using the 2 flurry of blow attacks to bypass the DR.

It seems the monk has entered tier 4 class level :smallwink:(not necessarily meaning I agree with the tiers at all).

- Giacomo

Vangor
2009-10-22, 06:53 PM
Some more answers before I go to bed ...

@Vangor: the unarmed swordsage does have the advantages you described - but do not forget that a monk can, with his bonus feats, also take ToB maneuvers and items once ToB is in.
And has more 24/7 defensive quailities.
It's a close call imo. Could be clarified with a direct comparison for some levels and a test of spite duel.
Will see if ever I can get to that.

Yes, I noted the Monk can take maneuvers and stances, but she can only gain three maneuvers per encounter with no recovery method, you possess a halved initiator level, and access to useful maneuvers and stances is severely limited without expending an exorbitant amount of feats. Monk bonus feats are strictly (to my knowledge) for two limited choices for each of the first, second, and sixth levels, and thus do not factor into this.

However, to do what the Swordsage can with reducing MAD, the Monk is effectively behind two feats since if the Monk is a Human with two flaws, the Swordsage is allowed this, too.

But, I would argue on the 24/7 defensive capabilities, too. She earns a evasion and improved evasion much earlier, yes, and does not need to wait a level before gaining wisdom to armor, but the reduction in MAD should increase armor and reflex via better dexterity alongside access to a chain shirt, which a better armor is comparable. Too, when level eight still mind becomes worse than defensive stance by magnitudes, and a Swordsage can easily use Child of Shadow stance for 20% concealment, plus a few maneuvers for mobility which allow teleportation and more. My favorite defense is increased initiative, and a replacement does not exist because the bonus, to my knowledge, stacks.

Plus, after I survive, I am a huge threat. Granted, this means I will be targeted more often.

Oh, for additional fun, Strongheart Halflings begin to further divide power due to the additional armor, to hit, dexterity, and hide and move silently modifiers, which the Monk is less likely to want due to decreased unarmed damage (near immaterial to Swordsages) and necessity to invest heavily in feats with the loss of strength.

I do not mean to sound as though you are absolutely wrong on the abilities of the Monk; the monk was, for so long, the ultimate class to be, but this is back when you needed to have X rolls for certain statistics to qualify, and thus MAD was not the concern, qualifying was because if you qualified you had the rolls.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 07:27 PM
If you are comparing a monk to a fighter, you are in a sorry state of affairs.


I wonder why you think that.

Again: in unarmed combat, monk is better than fighter.
In combat overall (since monk has more outside combat stuff), fighter is slightly better.

That's quite simple to see imo.

Good night everyone.

- Giacomo

Edit/PS:

With his AC, a few Sneak Attack Rogues with bows would make quick work of him.

Not when concealment is up which I outlined above...:smallamused:

Yukitsu
2009-10-22, 07:29 PM
Aweful lot of personal range spells you got on that there monk for the claim of 6 seconds.

Yup, six seconds discluding the round after dimension dooring, discluding the rightious might, and divine might which can only be cast by flailing on scrolls that you don't have enough charisma to use if your point by is 16 into strength, and at least 10 into dexterity.

Sir Giacomo
2009-10-22, 07:41 PM
reaching from the realms of semi-sleep ...


Aweful lot of personal range spells you got on that there monk for the claim of 6 seconds.

Two to be precise - divine power and rightuous might.


Yup, six seconds discluding the round after dimension dooring, discluding the rightious might, and divine might which can only be cast by flailing on scrolls that you don't have enough charisma to use if your point by is 16 into strength, and at least 10 into dexterity.

The item does the dimension door in the same round as the full attack.
Divine power can be cast from a wand (and often already I have shown how easy it is to get +19 to UMD even cross-class, even with starting dump stat CHR 8)
Rightuous might can be cast from a ring of spell storing. Actually, both these spells can. So UMD is not even necessary.

- Giacomo

Yukitsu
2009-10-22, 07:48 PM
You can't, by the rules as written hold spells in a spell storing ring without spell casting, even with UMD. It also doesn't change the fact that you don't do anything you've claimed in 6 seconds.

Also, greater intelligent magic items are required for you to function? That's pretty far down the deep end of item dependancy.

noiadodh
2009-10-22, 07:53 PM
u can kill a balor in six second as non mounted combat melee? its probably a stupid question in char-op but still..

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 07:54 PM
Also, greater intelligent magic items are required for you to function? That's pretty far down the deep end of item dependancy.

Custom item iirc.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-22, 07:55 PM
Edit/PS:

Not when concealment is up which I outlined above...:smallamused:
Better hope the rogues don't do something sneaky like attack you when you're not ready.

Shalist
2009-10-22, 08:06 PM
What about playing a monk with decent rolls in a low magic game?

(As in...a 10 person 6th level party has a +1 sword and a few masterwork items...one game day, ie rest period, is 3-4 sessions, so fat chance of shining as a caster...probably no VoP either, though)

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-22, 08:09 PM
I guess I'll try to focus on examples and playtests from now on (there is 70 pages following my monk guide that I linked above which explains all the theory).

By the way I read it, it's about 57 pages of people disagreeing with you, and 13 pages of you...

And in 70 pages of discussion, you didn't bring enough to the table to make even one person say, "you know, you're right."

THAT'S what screams at me, 25 posts a page, for 70 pages.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 08:17 PM
What about playing a monk with decent rolls in a low magic game?

(As in...a 10 person 6th level party has a +1 sword and a few masterwork items...one game day, ie rest period, is 3-4 sessions, so fat chance of shining as a caster...probably no VoP either, though)

Decent? 14's? Nah, now Good rolls like 16's in Str, Dex, Con, and Wis?
Now you are talking.
In low magic world: his fists become magic at 5th allowing him to bypass DR (but then they likely have 1 by 6th).

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-22, 08:24 PM
By the way I read it, it's about 57 pages of people disagreeing with you, and 13 pages of you...

And in 70 pages of discussion, you didn't bring enough to the table to make even one person say, "you know, you're right."

THAT'S what screams at me, 25 posts a page, for 70 pages.

Interestingly, he has at least seemed to be an amusing and considerate player in the Monkening thread.

Admittedly, he's been the most reliable dirt-napper in the real encounters, and didn't instantly crush the rest of the party even when they stumbled into an ambush featuring the Monk (With 30 seperate magical effects on him, including buffs and mind control stuff).
(NB reguarding tripping monks vs reach; His first refreshing lie-down came when a bow-using monster failed to provoke an Attack of Opportunity whilst full attacking arrows into his face at point blank range, so pretty much?)

He's also an enlarged, weapon using character who relies on a lot of magic items and (cross class) UMD, as the best way of describing the character. I'm not really entirely sure in what way other than strictly technically he's even playing a monk, really.

Those of you with better 3.5-fu than me, would a rogue, ranger or barbarian not be able to pretty much play the exact same build?

jiriku
2009-10-22, 08:26 PM
u can kill a balor in six second as non mounted combat melee? its probably a stupid question in char-op but still..

Oh yes, absolutely. There are probably a hundred builds that could do it and a thousand ways it could be done. Without crits.

For the OP, as promised, Jiriku's houseruled monk, intended to cement the monk's role as a skill monkey and striker. Compare to the CA scout for another representative of that role. I doubt you'll find this to be the One Perfect Solution, but perhaps you'll find one or two ideas of value in there.

MONK: You gain six skill points every time you gain a level (or 24 points at 1st level). Add Search and Disable Device to your list of monk class skills.
You gain the trapfinding ability.
You gain proficiency with gauntlets, and may treat them as special monk weapons. You deal your normal unarmed strike damage instead of the usual weapon damage when attacking with gauntlets.
At 1st level, you may choose to trade in your level-based AC bonus and flurry of blows class features. Instead, you gain the skirmish class feature, which applies whenever you attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon, as long as you are wearing no armor. Whenever you gain levels in a class that would improve your monk unarmed strike progression, it instead improves your skirmish progression. If you choose this alternate class feature, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat improves your unarmed strike damage instead of increasing your effective monk level. You continue to add your Wisdom bonus to your AC when you are wearing no armor. This stacks with features from other base classes (but not prestige classes) that grant Wisdom to AC.
You gain ki strike (magic) at 3rd level.
You gain purity of body at 4th level. It grants you immunity to all diseases, even magical ones.
You gain wholeness of body at 5th level. It heals an amount of damage each day equal to your monk level times your Wisdom modifier (minimum +1).
You gain tongue of the sun and moon and ki strike (lawful) at 7th level.
You gain diamond body at 8th level.
At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, choose a bonus feat from the following list: Extra Stunning, Prone Attack, or any feat that includes Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. You must meet all prerequisites.
You gain abundant step and ki strike (adamantine) at 11th level. You gain an additional use per day of abundant step at 15th level, and again at 19th level.
You gain the ability to use quivering palm once per day at 12th level. You gain an additional use per day at 16th level, and again at 20th level.
You gain timeless body and empty body at 17th level.
Perfect self grants you DR 10/chaotic instead of DR 10/magic.


BTW, Giacomo... I salute you, sir. Never have I seen a man defend his theories and his principles as doggedly as you. You have got the guts.

Roland St. Jude
2009-10-22, 08:36 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Alright, well, I suppose we gave it a shot. Please do not drag external baggage from one thread into another thread. Please do not attack, insult, belittle, or troll other posters. No matter how eloquently or cleverly phrased, personal attacks on others are not tolerated here. The sniping and passive-aggressive stuff is also prohibited by our Forum Rules. Please do not restart this thread.