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Sharkman1231
2009-10-22, 07:33 PM
What does it do?
Also, if not immediately obvious, why is it so good?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:38 PM
What does it do?
Also, if not immediately obvious, why is it so good?

What doesn't it do by RAW? Answer: Very little.

It removes anything with a duration. It ends the effect as well for everyone (example Antimagic field on a Warblade ends it if IHS 's it).

Dienekes
2009-10-22, 07:38 PM
Image you're stuned, asleep, dazed, whatever, for x amount of rounds.

1 Iron Heart Surge later, no, no you are not.

I think you can understand how useful this is.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-22, 07:39 PM
You can't take actions while asleep/stunned/dazed, so by RAW you can't IHS your way out.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:40 PM
Actually, you can't use it wghen it would appropriate like stun, sleep, etc.

Because you can't use Standard actions to use it.

But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-22, 07:42 PM
But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.

One of these days the Mind Flayers will realize this and the prophecy printed in Lords of Madness shall begin.


Sadly, IHS can also end the Darkness if you're human. Sorry Rick James.

Sharkman1231
2009-10-22, 07:48 PM
But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Douglas
2009-10-22, 07:50 PM
But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.
:sigh:

How many times am I going to have to refute this? Iron Heart Surge can end spells, effects, and conditions. The sun fits under none of these categories. If you are a drow or orc you could (depending on DM interpretation of the duration clause) use it to end the Dazzled condition caused by the sun and your race, but the sun would be completely unaffected by this. Claiming you can end the sun this way is like claiming that using Iron Heart Surge against a slow spell would make the caster of the spell die. If I have to explain why that doesn't work...:smalleek:

Godskook
2009-10-22, 07:50 PM
But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.

Stop spreading that. The sun does not have a 'duration', and is thus not a valid target, even for munchkins who like to have a love-affair with RAW while jilting RAI.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:52 PM
Stop spreading that. The sun does not have a 'duration', and is thus not a valid target, even for munchkins who like to have a love-affair with RAW while jilting RAI.

Untrue if using logic or Physics. Suns are not infinite. They do burn out. Otherwise super novas wouldn't happen.

Here is a link explaining it: http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question41.html

Douglas
2009-10-22, 07:54 PM
Untrue if using logic or Physics. Suns are not infinite. They do burn out.
Okay, now try refuting the serious problems I pointed out.

Gorgondantess
2009-10-22, 07:54 PM
Untrue if using logic or Physics. Suns are not infinite. They do burn out.

Um... logic? Anyone arguing that IHS can end the sun left real logic a looooong time ago, buddy.:smallwink:

industrious
2009-10-22, 07:56 PM
Technically, the sun has a duration of billions of years...but I'm just arguing for the sake of it.Ninja'd

That being said, IHS is great for setting watches against nighttime encounters. 1 watch, all night, no fatigue the next morning.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-22, 07:58 PM
Technically, the sun has a duration of billions of years...but I'm just arguing for the sake of it.Ninja'd

That being said, IHS is great for setting watches against nighttime encounters. 1 watch, all night, no fatigue the next morning.

Not exactly, it depends on the size the sun. A sun 15 times our sun would have 1/2 of a billion life span.

Basically, the bigger you are the faster you die for a sun.

Sharkman1231
2009-10-22, 08:07 PM
This is starting to sound like one adventure I DM'ed. I had an underwater cavern which was connected by a stairway to the surface. So my players tried to dig a trench to carry water and flood the place.
My response was "logic has not been invented yet."
:smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2009-10-22, 08:32 PM
Untrue if using logic or Physics. Suns are not infinite. They do burn out. Otherwise super novas wouldn't happen.

Here is a link explaining it: http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question41.html

1.No, if you want to argue the logic 'properly', IHS used against the sun puts out all the fires on this side of the sun, which proceed to reignite on the sun's next turn, assuming IHS affects as you argue.

2.I wasn't referring to the sun itself, since that's not an effect relevant to the Warblade. The 'sun rays' are the effect, and they're instantaneous effects.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-10-22, 10:23 PM
The sun is having an effect on me. That effect is heat, light, UV radiation, whatever.

I use Iron Heart Surge. It ends effects on me.

I am no longer under the effects of that EM radiation. The sun's still there, but my heart's so iron I surge through it.

Galileo
2009-10-22, 10:30 PM
As much as "I Iron Heart Surge the sun!" is a great line, if one of my players tried it, I'd rule that he only IHSed the particular rays that were hitting him at that moment. IHSing heatstroke, on the other hand...

taltamir
2009-10-22, 10:46 PM
The sun is having an effect on me. That effect is heat, light, UV radiation, whatever.

I use Iron Heart Surge. It ends effects on me.

I am no longer under the effects of that EM radiation. The sun's still there, but my heart's so iron I surge through it.

best saying I heard... in a really long while. Very quote worthy

I like the analysis that suggested: ending the sun with IHS is like killing the wizard who cast a spell on you with IHS, the effect end, not its source

By the RAW, your lifespan is set in stone. even class abilities which grant immunity to aging only stop negative effects of aging and you still die when, and I quote "your time is up".
Hence I would say "your life" has a duration... you can IHS to end your life. :)
Cynide pills are for pansies.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-22, 10:49 PM
Does anyone here honestly, seriously believe that they could get away with ending the sun via IHS, or would even try to do so in the first place? By strictly read RAW and enough distortion of logic, it is possible - but the entire reason for pointing that out is to demonstrate how poorly worded and written the ability is in the first place.

taltamir
2009-10-22, 10:52 PM
Does anyone here honestly, seriously believe that they could get away with ending the sun via IHS, or would even try to do so in the first place? By strictly read RAW and enough distortion of logic, it is possible - but the entire reason for pointing that out is to demonstrate how poorly worded and written the ability is in the first place.

point.. one could argue that the sun has a creator, the gods. making the sun no different than AMF for purpose of ending its existence.

Galileo
2009-10-22, 10:57 PM
I'd try to Iron Heart Surge the sun. Hell, I'd try to Iron Heart Surge the effect of being stabbed in the gut. Technically, he's gotta take his dagger out sometime, so it's got a duration, right?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 10:57 PM
best saying I heard... in a really long while. Very quote worthy

I like the analysis that suggested: ending the sun with IHS is like killing the wizard who cast a spell on you with IHS, the effect end, not its source

By the RAW, your lifespan is set in stone. even class abilities which grant immunity to aging only stop negative effects of aging and you still die when, and I quote "your time is up".
Hence I would say "your life" has a duration... you can IHS to end your life. :)
Cynide pills are for pansies.

Life is a condition, sure, but so is death.

Condition ended for EVERYONE.

Paulus
2009-10-22, 11:04 PM
No, but you can Iron heart surge the Human Condition.

*runs and gets on the teetertotter* wheeee! ow! my butt!

jcsw
2009-10-22, 11:04 PM
1.No, if you want to argue the logic 'properly', IHS used against the sun puts out all the fires on this side of the sun, which proceed to reignite on the sun's next turn, assuming IHS affects as you argue.


Suns do not work that way.

Draz74
2009-10-22, 11:25 PM
:smallcool: I Iron Heart Surge away the sun's effects on me.

:smalleek: Good thing you still have Iron Heart Surge; you're going to need to use it every couple days for the rest of your life to remove the Conditions of Vitamin D Deficiency and clinical depression from your character ...

EDIT: Anyway, it's pretty simple and obvious to limit IHS to game-defined "conditions." If you do this, and follow RAW strictly, the maneuver is more likely to be underpowered than overpowered.

Since it doesn't work vs. paralysis (executing maneuvers requires movement), or stunning or dazed (requires a standard action) or charm/dominate (... yeah) ... there aren't very many common effects that it actually helps with.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 11:26 PM
No, but you can Iron heart surge the Human Condition.

*runs and gets on the teetertotter* wheeee! ow! my butt!

Exxxxcellent

taltamir
2009-10-23, 02:31 AM
Life is a condition, sure, but so is death.

Condition ended for EVERYONE.

but life has a fixed duration... death does not have a duration... does it?
but if it did, you would have indeed ended the effects of death, for everyone.

Killer Angel
2009-10-23, 03:15 AM
Suns do not work that way.

yeah, but think about it for a moment: "the dark side of the sun", a new great Pink Floyd's album... :smallcool:

Ganurath
2009-10-23, 04:03 AM
...Can Iron Heart Surge apply to aging penalties if your of a race other than Elan or Warforged?

Grumman
2009-10-23, 04:34 AM
Untrue if using logic or Physics. Suns are not infinite. They do burn out.
That is not the same thing as having a duration.


As much as "I Iron Heart Surge the sun!" is a great line, if one of my players tried it, I'd rule that he only IHSed the particular rays that were hitting him at that moment. IHSing heatstroke, on the other hand...
You're a kinder DM than me. Anyone who tried that in one of my games would get himself kicked.

I'm not a fan of munchkins or over-used, unfunny memes.

Sliver
2009-10-23, 05:09 AM
I'm not a fan of munchkins or over-used, unfunny memes.

I IHS munchkins and over-used, unfunny memes away.

kamikasei
2009-10-23, 05:23 AM
Iron Heart Surge is unclearly worded. My favourite description of how to actually use it is Mike G's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6876190#post6876190).

Essentially, you should work out in general terms what common situations it can and cannot be used to get out of or around before a player takes it, and then be flexible within the bounds of reason. Trying to play it by RAW not only leaves open abuses but also closes off uses that should be available.

cheezewizz2000
2009-10-23, 05:58 AM
Actually, I don't think it's that bad. Even if it's used RAW and RAI, you can still use it to end ability damaged, blinded, checked (potentially), cowering, dazzled, deafened, entangled, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, shaken, sickened, and staggered.

A couple of those people may disagree with and I'll address the most likely ones here:

Checked's duration will be the same as the spell's duration for spells like gust of wind. For more permanent sources of impediment, such as ocean currents and really strong winds, I think you're a little more boned. Ending the effect is different to ending the source of the effect, so I don't think there's any danger of an errant warblade and lax DM ending the gulf stream...

Entangled doesn't prevent you from moving (you move at half speed) and you can still take standard actions.

Exhausted lasts an hour. Fatigue lasts 8 hours. Use IHS to replace sleep!

Anything I've missed/included erroniously? I mean, that's a pretty long list of effects that one level 3 manuever can get rid of. Seems a little over powered to me...

lord_khaine
2009-10-23, 06:11 AM
What about energy drain? as i recall it goes away after 24 hours.

Frog Dragon
2009-10-23, 06:30 AM
Suns do not work that way.
Goodnight.

Honestly, it's still very powerful even without dubious raw cheese. You plow through any negative effects you can take a standard action during. I don't need to tell you how powerful this is.

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 06:56 AM
Even by the silly RAW argument, you can't end the Sun. The Sun is an object, not an effect or condition. The only thing you can IHS away is the "dazzled" condition. That would only last for one round, then it would be affecting you again, although in the intervening round you could refresh and just keep alternating IHS+standard attack with full attack and be dazzled only every other round.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 07:37 AM
Even by the silly RAW argument, you can't end the Sun. The Sun is an object, not an effect or condition. The only thing you can IHS away is the "dazzled" condition. That would only last for one round, then it would be affecting you again, although in the intervening round you could refresh and just keep alternating IHS+standard attack with full attack and be dazzled only every other round.

Not according to Sage. It ends the entire effect.
Just like Antimagic field is ended not just its effect.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-23, 07:43 AM
Not according to Sage. It ends the entire effect.
Just like Antimagic field is ended not just its effect.

Actually, even I generally do well with sage advice, I consider the ToB ones quite odd, this one particularly. It makes no sense at all, both considering an AMF immunity, or the AMF ending. Is simply weird.

Said this, what Kamikasei said. See the condition list in DMG, add immobilized (ToM), and check with your players what makes sense from a "badass melee" standpoint.

If you want to know, I allow it end stunned and dazed, because makes sense for a thick-skulled meleer to ignore the stun condition. My beef is with poison and disease (even if RAW works).

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 07:49 AM
Not according to Sage. It ends the entire effect.
Just like Antimagic field is ended not just its effect.

That's because AMF is just an effect. It's not an object; simply an area where magic is negated.

That's like saying it would slay a creature that gave off a smell so bad it created a condition of some sort. You could IHS the effect of the smell away, but it doesn't get rid of the creature.

Essentially, the creature/sun/object is creating a new effect every round that you have to IHS away again.

Oslecamo
2009-10-23, 07:51 AM
It's always funny that nobody complains about english rape on magic rules, but everybody complains about english rape about one maneuver.:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, by Sage and RAW, the maneuver does end the source of the effect. And effect is such a general word...

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 07:56 AM
So, if you IHS in an antimagic field it goes away, because it is an Effect, yes? The entire field disappears, for everyone.

You IHS the hateful burning sun, (To spite Pelor, perhaps.)
It ends the effect of (light what has reached you this round). It dissapears, for everyone. There is a spherical ring of no-light- in the suns radiation of light, consisting of that layer of light that hit our IHSer.

He does the same thing next round. And the next.

He can actively deny anything further-from-the-sun than him from ever receiving another ray of light, effectively all but blotting out the sun.

Now we just need a way to send the guy into the dnd equivalent of space, and fasten him in place for all eternity. Sounds like a pretty epic ploy to destroy all sun-dependant life, really. :D Bit smart for Gruumsh. Lloth, perhaps?

Douglas
2009-10-23, 08:00 AM
Not according to Sage. It ends the entire effect.
Just like Antimagic field is ended not just its effect.
That is correct. Antimagic Field is a spell, and IHS ends it in its entirety. Now, the sun is quite clearly neither a spell nor a condition. The only possibility left is that it might be an "effect". That word is not well defined as a D&D term, so let's take a look at the English meaning, as given by dictionary.com:

ef⋅fect
–noun
1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.
2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence: His protest had no effect.
3. the state of being effective or operative; operation or execution; accomplishment or fulfillment: to bring a plan into effect.
4. a mental or emotional impression produced, as by a painting or a speech.
5. meaning or sense; purpose or intention: She disapproved of the proposal and wrote to that effect.
6. the making of a desired impression: We had the feeling that the big, expensive car was only for effect.
7. an illusory phenomenon: a three-dimensional effect.
8. a real phenomenon (usually named for its discoverer): the Doppler effect.
9. special effects.

Looking through this list, the only one that makes sense to me in this context is definition 1, "something that is produced by an agency or cause". The sun... kind of just exists, it's not something that got created to bother you. The only way the sun could qualify under this definition is if some creator deity made it, and under that interpretation you'd be calling all of existence an effect. I think I can safely say that is not an intended meaning of the word anywhere in all of D&D, and that any creature or object would also not qualify.

SoD
2009-10-23, 08:01 AM
but life has a fixed duration... death does not have a duration... does it?
but if it did, you would have indeed ended the effects of death, for everyone.

Instantaneous. Or until raised, depending on if you mean death as a thing that happens, or death as in what replaces life.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 08:07 AM
Instantaneous. Or until raised, depending on if you mean death as a thing that happens, or death as in what replaces life.

Nah, death clearly has a duration, for; "That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die."

So, Duration of 'Strange aeons".

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-23, 08:54 AM
Nah, death clearly has a duration, for; "That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die."

So, Duration of 'Strange aeons".

So.. Cthulhu is a Warblade?

Godskook
2009-10-23, 09:11 AM
Suns do not work that way.

Huh? What do you mean? Fire works that way. Try pulling a burning log out of a roaring fire. Smother the flames(without water). Put it back on. What happens? It lights back up. What is about stars(there is only one 'sun') that would make them different in the same situation?

Keshay
2009-10-23, 09:13 AM
Saying that IHS turns out the sun is the same as saying IHS will kill you whenever you use it. After all, the condition is ended upon death, right? And what do you think is easier, killing one fleshy mortal or ending all fusion in a star?

IHS to turn out the sun is a stupid argument, promoted only by those who are either enamored with thier own cleverness, or so jaded against the perceived holes in 3.0/5 rules that they do whatever they can to avoid allowing themselves or others to have any fun

Tyndmyr
2009-10-23, 09:31 AM
And what do you think is easier, killing one fleshy mortal or ending all fusion in a star?

Killing one fleshy mortal is pretty much always the easier solution. Fortunately, "easier" has no bearing on the ability.

Kzickas
2009-10-23, 09:32 AM
Huh? What do you mean? Fire works that way. Try pulling a burning log out of a roaring fire. Smother the flames(without water). Put it back on. What happens? It lights back up. What is about stars(there is only one 'sun') that would make them different in the same situation?

The fact that a star doesn't burn is one thing. Secondly the only thing keeping a star from collapsing under it's own weight is the energy it produces. thirdly one log from a roaring fire is quite a bit less than half the fire

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 09:46 AM
Or they like using over done memes they somehow think are original.
The effects of being in the sun, yes. Your surging heart burns bright enough to blot out the sun, and you, with sheer will power, ignore the detrimental effects of being in the searing gaze of the Day Eye. You can see, you no longer feel weakened, you don't crumble into dust, negating effects of being in the sun, yes, I would allow. I would even allow it to replicate the die-hard feat, even though that's not allowed RAW.
It's a poorly worded, versatile, feat, meant, in my view, to emulate heroic will-power, that extra oomph that allows Heroes (with a capital aitch) to keep on keeping on. But taking out the sun?
Never.
Nu-uh.
No way.
No Happening.
I am the DM, the deus behind the machina. And Both Rules as Written, and by My Word, By Rule Zero, By All Powers of Gaming and Simulation and Role Play, I Say. . .
NO.

Random832
2009-10-23, 09:49 AM
The fact that a star doesn't burn is one thing. Secondly the only thing keeping a star from collapsing under it's own weight is the energy it produces.

Wait... So that means that if you Iron Heart Surge its fusion reaction (which is the 'effect' that is causing you to be dazzled), it will collapse.

Now, the fusion reaction ending [naturally], and the star collapsing, and then bouncing back outwards, is a phenomenon that occurs sometimes in nature.

Iron... Heart... SUPERNOVA! :smallbiggrin:

Moriato
2009-10-23, 09:56 AM
Wait... So that means that if you Iron Heart Surge its fusion reaction (which is the 'effect' that is causing you to be dazzled), it will collapse.

Now, the fusion reaction ending [naturally], and the star collapsing, and then bouncing back outwards, is a phenomenon that occurs sometimes in nature.

Iron... Heart... SUPERNOVA! :smallbiggrin:

No. If you were being affected directly by the sun's fusion reaction, you'd be dead.

Also not everything that will eventually end has a duration.

All adventurers will die eventually, does that mean they "have a duration"? No.

It takes a certain amount of time to breathe in, and then out, but that doesn't mean that the need to breathe has a duration.

Godskook
2009-10-23, 10:01 AM
The fact that a star doesn't burn is one thing.

Doesn't burn...doesn't burn...that sounds like the same kind of 'science' that declared Pluto to not be a planet. Technically correct, but a waste of time to point out.


Secondly the only thing keeping a star from collapsing under it's own weight is the energy it produces.

That's entirely conjecture.


Thirdly one log from a roaring fire is quite a bit less than half the fire

We'll have to go camping some day. I'll show you what I call a 'roaring fire' and a 'log'. We'll have good times too, debating science and running from park rangers.

Random832
2009-10-23, 10:07 AM
No. If you were being affected directly by the sun's fusion reaction, you'd be dead.

Yeah, well, only summoned creatures are affected directly by an antimagic field.

lsfreak
2009-10-23, 11:18 AM
That's entirely conjecture.

Unless you want to bring religious arguments into this, yes, radiation pressure IS what keeps stars from collapsing. This is NOT conjecture. If you were to somehow stop all fusion in a Sol-like star, it would spontaneously collapse until the pressure was great enough to start up the reactions again. Or possibly, but unlikely due to the amount of fusionable material still within, form electron-degenerate matter and become a white dwarf.


Doesn't burn...doesn't burn...that sounds like the same kind of 'science' that declared Pluto to not be a planet. Technically correct, but a waste of time to point out.
There's a HUGE difference between fusion and oxidation. Might as well claim sound is part of the EM spectrum.


No. If you were being affected directly by the sun's fusion reaction, you'd be dead.
We're being bombarded by neutrinos from the sun constantly, and we can feel the heat from the EM radiation. I'd call those direct effects of the sun's fusion.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 11:24 AM
IHS to turn out the sun is a stupid argument..., or so jaded against the perceived holes in 3.0/5 rules that they do whatever they can to avoid allowing themselves or others to have any fun

Wait, so jokingly saying that IHS makes you so awesome that you kill the sun is a way to avoid having fun? You're really suggesting that such a ridiculous and unusable interpretation is designed to stop people from having fun?

What do you call "fun" anyway? I know what I call fun, and violently reacting against memes just because they're "overusing" is not fun and slightly disturbing.

Melamoto
2009-10-23, 11:35 AM
IHS Abuse SHOULD be allowed.

As long as the DM does it right.

Using IHS because you're dazzled by the sun? You lose your eyes.
Using IHS because you're being grappled? You become amorphous.
Using IHS because an enemy is effecting you with his presence? You disappear.

Still, IHS can still be really good. It's effect helps end any debilitating effects, like fatigue.

Roderick_BR
2009-10-23, 11:42 AM
Actually, you can't use it wghen it would appropriate like stun, sleep, etc.

Because you can't use Standard actions to use it.

But you can end the sun if you are Drow or a Orc.
No, you can't. The sun is not "temporary". You CAN end your sun-blind effect, since it's temporary (while you are out in the sun), but not the sun itself, because it is not a temporary effect. It can be in the other side of the world, or behind clouds/mountains, but it's still there. Really, it's not "temporary", so, by RAW, it's not affected by IHS.

If you want to avoid others interpretation problems, says that it can cancel effects in the same way spells like "remove disease", "cure blindness", "remove paralisy" or even "dispell magic" would work. If there's no similar spell that can couter an effect, than that effect is not IHS-able.

I don't think being "grappled" is more an effect than, say, being hit. Although Freedom of Movement (or whatever it's called now) makes it useless anyway.

Tar Palantir
2009-10-23, 11:49 AM
My simplest and best fix for IHS is to remove the word "effect" entirely. It ends spells and conditions effecting you, both of which are clearly defined by the rules. The sun is neither.

averagejoe
2009-10-23, 12:05 PM
Why does everyone automatically assume that the sun is a gigantic flaming ball? It could easily be, say, a hole in the dome of the sky. Or a god taking a stroll. :smalltongue:

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 12:08 PM
So, if you IHS in an antimagic field it goes away, because it is an Effect, yes? The entire field disappears, for everyone.

You IHS the hateful burning sun, (To spite Pelor, perhaps.)
It ends the effect of (light what has reached you this round). It dissapears, for everyone. There is a spherical ring of no-light- in the suns radiation of light, consisting of that layer of light that hit our IHSer.

He does the same thing next round. And the next.

He can actively deny anything further-from-the-sun than him from ever receiving another ray of light, effectively all but blotting out the sun.

Now we just need a way to send the guy into the dnd equivalent of space, and fasten him in place for all eternity. Sounds like a pretty epic ploy to destroy all sun-dependant life, really. :D Bit smart for Gruumsh. Lloth, perhaps?

No, that isn't how it works. The effect/conditin is "dazzled", not the sun or the light.

The AMF is not a valid analogy. An AMF is a condition, spell, and effect in and of itself; it affects eveyone entering its AOE in the same way. The Sun doesn't. Not everyone exposed to sunlight is dazzled. it's not an effect of the sunlight per se; it's an effect being exposed to it has on certain races.

In other words, the Sun is just producing light. If you aren't dazzled by it in the first place you can't IHS the dazzle away because there's no condition or effect. Siilarly, you can't un-dazzle anyone else with your IHS because their dazzle is based on the effect of the environment on them; it's not linked to your dazzled or undazzled state in any way.

In the case of AMF, it is the effect. By getting rid of it, you dispel it, but that only incidentally ends the effect on anyone else. The AMF is all one effect that covers a certain area and counts as being on you if you're in it. The sun doesn't. Whether or not the sun is an effect depends on your status, not the mere presence of the sun.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-23, 12:17 PM
No, that isn't how it works. The effect/conditin is "dazzled", not the sun or the light.

The AMF is not a valid analogy. An AMF is a condition, spell, and effect in and of itself; it affects eveyone entering its AOE in the same way. The Sun doesn't. Not everyone exposed to sunlight is dazzled. it's not an effect of the sunlight per se; it's an effect being exposed to it has on certain races.
.

That's why you don't use a Drow or Orc, you use a Vampire of any race.:smallsmile: It's no less stupid, but it does make the sunlight itself a condition affecting the character, instead of the sunlight inflicting a condition on the character.

OracleofWuffing
2009-10-23, 12:21 PM
I never really understood the thought process behind IHS being able to end an antimagic field. Yeah, I know it's kinda official, but... AMFs don't directly affect the characters. Characters are free to use their magical spells and stuff inside an antimagic field, the magic itself just kinda doesn't work. Unless you yourself were an awakened spell or something, which would be kinda cool...

Zeful
2009-10-23, 12:22 PM
IHS Abuse SHOULD be allowed.

As long as the DM does it right.

Using IHS because you're dazzled by the sun? You lose your eyes.
Using IHS because you're being grappled? You become amorphous.
Using IHS because an enemy is effecting you with his presence? You disappear.

Still, IHS can still be really good. It's effect helps end any debilitating effects, like fatigue.

Nah, losing your eyes makes no sense. However IHS the sun removes it's effects on you until the sun's inevitable death, which will be longer than you will live. This means you can no longer see, at all. You are not warmed either by the direct rays of the sun or the one's reflected on to you, meaning you will freeze to death. The melanin in your skin (should you survive this long) will simply fade away until you're a pale apparition and you die.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 12:26 PM
Nah, losing your eyes makes no sense. However IHS the sun removes it's effects on you until the sun's inevitable death, which will be longer than you will live. This means you can no longer see, at all. You are not warmed either by the direct rays of the sun or the one's reflected on to you, meaning you will freeze to death. The melanin in your skin (should you survive this long) will simply fade away until you're a pale apparition and you die.

You can just IHS that problem.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-23, 12:31 PM
So.. Cthulhu is a Warblade?

but of course!

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 12:34 PM
That's why you don't use a Drow or Orc, you use a Vampire of any race.:smallsmile: It's no less stupid, but it does make the sunlight itself a condition affecting the character, instead of the sunlight inflicting a condition on the character.
"A shroud of shadow cloaks the foul spawn of undeath as he lurches toward you, sweat beading on his pale brow."
By the same strength of will that brought him back from the grave, now he is staving off the effects of being in sunlight.
Simple, yet cinematic.
This is why we have DM's, and not a computer, running our game.

industrious
2009-10-23, 12:46 PM
But how long would said shroud of shadow last? Either it would last one round(effectively giving the vampire an additional move action before being destroyed) or permanently, giving us daywalkers.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 12:49 PM
But how long would said shroud of shadow last? Either it would last one round(effectively giving the vampire an additional move action before being destroyed) or permanently, giving us daywalkers.
A will save every round, to keep up the shroud. This is all DM fiat, but I think it works

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 01:06 PM
A will save every round, to keep up the shroud. This is all DM fiat, but I think it works

Well, yeah, but you could have done that without bringing in Iron Heart Surge.
This is why we have DMs, and not a computer, running our games.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-23, 01:39 PM
Well, yeah, but you could have done that without bringing in Iron Heart Surge.
This is why we have DMs, and not a computer, running our games.
I think these kinds of effects come under the intent of Iron Heart Surge, willing away detrimental effects, but the character has be at least a Warblade 3 with Iron Heart manoeuvres so it's not just out of the blue. This explains why this vampire can do it, and not run o' the mill Vlad Von Alucard in the next castle.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 01:42 PM
I could argue more, but we'd just go in circles. It's not a PC mechanic, so you can justify it however.

The OP's question has been answered anyway. What does IHS do? It eliminates blindness, dazzling, deafness, entanglement, exhaustion, fatigue, and sickening. I'd favor White Raven Tactics over IHS, since it can't end some of the more important ones (anything that takes away your action)

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 01:43 PM
I could argue more, but we'd just go in circles. It's not a PC mechanic, so you can justify it however.

The OP's question has been answered anyway. What does IHS do? It eliminates blindness, dazzling, deafness, entanglement, exhaustion, fatigue, and sickening. I'd favor White Raven Tactics over IHS, since it can't end some of the more important ones (anything that takes away your action)

Yeah, but unlike IHS (completely defensive maneuver), WRT allows 2 actions for another player.

Diamondeye
2009-10-23, 02:11 PM
That's why you don't use a Drow or Orc, you use a Vampire of any race.:smallsmile: It's no less stupid, but it does make the sunlight itself a condition affecting the character, instead of the sunlight inflicting a condition on the character.

Still doesn't work. "Sunlight" isn't an effect; it has an effect on Vampires. You can only end the effect; you can't end a thing. At the risk of killing a few catgirls, light is a thing because it does have momentum and light energy has an equivalent in terms of mass according to E=MC^2.

"Running Water" has an effect on vampires too, but you can't IHS the water away, or make it stop running. You can only end the effect.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-23, 02:18 PM
Still doesn't work. "Sunlight" isn't an effect; it has an effect on Vampires. You can only end the effect; you can't end a thing. At the risk of killing a few catgirls, light is a thing because it does have momentum and light energy has an equivalent in terms of mass according to E=MC^2.

"Running Water" has an effect on vampires too, but you can't IHS the water away, or make it stop running. You can only end the effect.

So instead of putting out the sun, the Vampire loses his weakness to sunlight?

Draz74
2009-10-23, 02:25 PM
So instead of putting out the sun, the Vampire loses his weakness to sunlight?

Ah, but does his weakness to sunlight have a duration?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-23, 02:28 PM
Ah, but does his weakness to sunlight have a duration?

Let's see...


Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.


One round, apparently.



Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion.

Three rounds.

drengnikrafe
2009-10-23, 02:34 PM
Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread, just wanted to put in my 2 cp on the "IHS ends the sun" debate. I'm not sure that this hasn't already been said.

IHS could end the sun if the DM allowed it. However, last time I checked, planets have a very difficult time surviving without a sun. Well, at least, the creatures on the planet. Ending the sun is roughly equal to "rock falls, planet dies". Campaign ends there.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 02:45 PM
We're being bombarded by neutrinos from the sun constantly, and we can feel the heat from the EM radiation. I'd call those direct effects of the sun's fusion.

As much as being bombarded by fireballs means you're being directly affected by the wizard casting them, and as it's been pointed out, iron heart surge doesn't make wizards dissapear.

Paulus
2009-10-23, 02:51 PM
I don't get it. Why are we arguing? The sun has two "effects" radiation and light. Light travels in waves and in particles, so you could "end the sun" and thus stop that particular wave of light from hitting you until the next wave of light hits you or you could end the radiation which also travels in waves. Heat waves, graphically. So really either way you aren't ending the "sun" itself.

Unless you wish to stretch "ending the source" nonsense, which is fine too. Go ahead, IHS the sunlight and the radiation. Now just wait a few billion light years for your IHS to reach the sun and viola! it's ended. Of course you'll be dead by then from all the residual light waves and radiation that continued to travel through space that have yet to reach earth and therefore effect you. But hey. IHS constantly every round for the rest of your life and you'll still die from sun damage because all those IHS are only ending the wave that are affecting you at that round and then trying to reach out into space one after the other traveling for billions of light years to end the source.
Could take a few hours, or it could take your lifetime. Takes a DM call if you ask me.

Now the real question is, if you IHS surge the sun and someone needs the sun to live, can they IHS your IHS to stop it?

Yo Dawg I heard you liked Iron Heart surge so...

technophile
2009-10-23, 02:54 PM
As much as being bombarded by fireballs means you're being directly affected by the wizard casting them, and as it's been pointed out, iron heart surge doesn't make wizards dissapear.
They're not direct effects in any case.

Heat is an indirect effect of fusion not being 100% efficient. So is light. Fusion is not directly affecting the character, or his atoms would be fusing together into more massive elemental atoms.:smallwink:

technophile
2009-10-23, 02:55 PM
Go ahead, IHS the sunlight and the radiation. Now just wait a few billion light years for your IHS to reach the sun and viola!

Try 499 seconds, or just over 8 minutes. The earth and sun are 499 light-seconds apart.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 03:02 PM
They're not direct effects in any case.

Heat is an indirect effect of fusion not being 100% efficient. So is light. Fusion is not directly affecting the character, or his atoms would be fusing together into more massive elemental atoms.:smallwink:

Exactly my point, if you read my previous post.

hamishspence
2009-10-23, 03:03 PM
Try 499 seconds, or just over 8 minutes. The earth and sun are 499 light-seconds apart.

Interestingly though the photons emitted by the fusion reaction, take a very long time to propagate through the atmosphere. (or rather, from the core, to the edge of the atmosphere.

Once they reach the edge, they leave at light-speed, but until they get there, they are very slow.

Saintjebus
2009-10-23, 03:11 PM
Try 499 seconds, or just over 8 minutes. The earth and sun are 499 light-seconds apart.

That's assuming that the IHS effect( ha that word again) travels at the speed of light.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 03:32 PM
Interestingly though the photons emitted by the fusion reaction, take a very long time to propagate through the atmosphere.

Very true, they bounce around in the sun for a long time before ever escaping. Regardless though, I think Paulus was talking about the time it will take for your Iron Heart surge to reach the sun. I have no idea how fast an iron heart surge travels, and also he seems to be using light years as a measurment of time, so... I'm just gonna ignore it.

hamishspence
2009-10-23, 03:35 PM
Maybe, D&D effects travel faster than the speed of light.

If you have an epic spell that creates a ginormous circular effect, the moment the spell is cast, the effect springs up, even if it would normally take, say, minutes for light emanating from you to reach the edge.

industrious
2009-10-23, 03:45 PM
This explains why this vampire can do it, and not run o' the mill Vlad Von Alucard in the next castle.

Blasphemy. Alucard can do anything he wants to.

Paulus
2009-10-23, 03:45 PM
Very true, they bounce around in the sun for a long time before ever escaping. Regardless though, I think Paulus was talking about the time it will take for your Iron Heart surge to reach the sun. I have no idea how fast an iron heart surge travels, and also he seems to be using light years as a measurment of time, so... I'm just gonna ignore it.

meh it was a sarcastic over emphasis of time like saying a bajillion or kajillion. I have no idea how long it really takes for light in waves or particles or radiation or thought to travel through a vacuum. I'm just saying it would ultimately take a DM call since it's obvious no one knows for sure.

Alex112524
2009-10-23, 03:51 PM
Maybe, D&D effects travel faster than the speed of light.

With a long enough peasant rail gun setup, you can make OBJECTS travel faster than the speed of light in D&D :smallbiggrin: I don't see why effects couldn't either :smalltongue:

Somewhere
2009-10-23, 04:43 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I would find it hilarious to let a player IHS the Sun. The Sun would just expire in the form of a supernova.

What's the consensus on IHS and forces? Gravity, friction, wind resistance, pressure while underwater, etc. etc.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 05:03 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I would find it hilarious to let a player IHS the Sun. The Sun would just expire in the form of a supernova.

What's the consensus on IHS and forces? Gravity, friction, wind resistance, pressure while underwater, etc. etc.

If one of those forces is causing a "condition" they can ihs and remove the condition from themselves and act normally. But there's no "effect", so it's not going to end it for anyone else.

So in extra-high gravity, or even high winds they can just ignore the problems their teammates will face, but gravity and wind and pressure themselves are not "effects" or "conditions".

"Effect" "condition" and "duration" all have very specific definitions within the D&D universe. They don't mean the same thing that it says in the dictionary.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:06 PM
If one of those forces is causing a "condition" they can ihs and remove the condition from themselves and act normally. But there's no "effect", so it's not going to end it for anyone else.

"Effect" "condition" and "duration" all have very specific definitions within the D&D universe. They don't mean the same thing that it says in the dictionary.

of note, the word "always" also has a specific definition in DnD which differs from the dictionary.

EX: "always evil" according to the DnD means: almost always evil, such creatures are created or born evil, but can and occasionally do change their alignment later in life.

P305 in MM1:

Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.

Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Usually: The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment. This may be due to strong cultural influences, or it may be a legacy of the creatures’ origin. For example, most elves inherited their chaotic good alignment from their creator, the deity Corellon Larethian.

Often: The creature tends toward the given alignment, either bynature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40–50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common

There is also mention of the "alignment subtype"
Page 310 in MM1:

Good Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).
This is repeated in lawful, evil etc with the same text.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 05:15 PM
of note, the word "always" also has a specific definition in DnD which differs from the dictionary.

EX: "always evil" according to the DnD means: almost always evil, such creatures are created or born evil, but can and occasionally do change their alignment later in life.

True, but I attribute that to the people who are obsessed with circumventing every rule. There's a certain mentality that says "Well yeah, they're made of evil but wouldn't it be cool and totally original if this one isn't?!"

Or "Druids can't wear metal armor?! Well then we just need a material that's just like metal, but isn't!"

For every rule there's someone out there who is intent on making another rule that cancels the previous one out.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:18 PM
True, but I attribute that to the people who are obsessed with circumventing every rule. There's a certain mentality that say "Well yeah, they're made of evil but wouldn't it be cool and totally original if this one isn't?!"

Or "Druids can't wear metal armor?! Well then we just need a material that's just like metal, but isn't!"

For every rule there's someone out there who is intent on making another rule that cancels the previous one out.

ah yes... "design by committee"... except this committee can just publish rules that contradict each other instead of actually reaching a consensus...


"Well yeah, they're made of evil but wouldn't it be cool and totally original if this one isn't?!"
I think this example shows what you were talking about:
http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20050711.html

Starbuck_II
2009-10-23, 05:18 PM
For every rule there's someone out there who is intent on making another rule that cancels the previous one out.

Yeah, that someone is the designers. There are a couple non-metal materials for metal armor out there.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 05:53 PM
I think this example shows what you were talking about:
http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20050711.html

I wasn't referring to any specific driz creature, but I'd be lying if I said that particular one didn't come to mind immediately.

Frosty
2009-10-23, 05:58 PM
Hmm...can a Druid IHS out of losing Druid powers for wearing metal armor? It is an effect with a duration (of 24 hours in fact).

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-24, 10:54 AM
Hmm...can a Druid IHS out of losing Druid powers for wearing metal armor? It is an effect with a duration (of 24 hours in fact).

Yes, but unless they took the armor off they'd need another one every round.

FMArthur
2009-10-24, 11:05 AM
I wonder if using IHS against the sun's effect might actually make one invisible if that were the only light source around at the moment. Might be interesting to surge out of the visible spectrum for a split second for surprise movement or something. Certainly a waste of an action in combat (especially compared to many Shadow Hand maneuvers) but a neat allowance of the rules regardless.

Rankar
2009-10-24, 11:46 PM
Iron Heart Surge can take away statuses like weariness, but how long does the status go away? Like, if you're in extreme cold weather and you Iron Heart Surge, does it go away permanently or what? Will you never be tired again and need to sleep? Could you be deafened and IHS out of it and never be attacked in that manner again? Does it negate Enervation?

Actual questions about the maneuver rather than random out there ramblings involving the destruction of the world...

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 12:02 AM
Iron Heart Surge can take away statuses like weariness, but how long does the status go away? Like, if you're in extreme cold weather and you Iron Heart Surge, does it go away permanently or what? Will you never be tired again and need to sleep? Could you be deafened and IHS out of it and never be attacked in that manner again? Does it negate Enervation?

Actual questions about the maneuver rather than random out there ramblings involving the destruction of the world...

Until another effect causes it again.
So in case of exhaustion/fatigue: till you go another day without sleep.
In case of enervation: till hit again with negative levels.

Count Dravda
2009-10-25, 12:28 AM
All other arguments aside, we can clearly see that IHS was not intended to defy gravity, put out the sun, or warm the poles. It's an amusing hypothetical to talk about, but if a player tried it seriously in one of my games, I would throw the Tome of Battle at them.

-Count Dravda

Rankar
2009-10-25, 01:25 AM
Until another effect causes it again.
So in case of exhaustion/fatigue: till you go another day without sleep.
In case of enervation: till hit again with negative levels.

Thanks. I see horrible ways of abusing it (this board helps with that) and don't want to end up with "rock falls, everyone lives but you and Tome of Battle."

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 12:55 PM
I love Iron Heart Surge.

Its especially good with abilities/feats/etc... that give you status effects as a negative condition.

It gets tricky when you wonder about status effects like "dying" or even 'dead'. Can my spirit iron heart surge me back to life? For that matter, isn't life itself a temporary condition (as my spirit spends most of its time outside my body in a dualistic philosophy setting)? Does that mean if I use IHS I immediately lose the temporary condition of "alive" and kill myself?

My sword used it to remove the condition "inanimate object" and become an intelligent and animated object. Who knew you could have inert levels in Warblade without an intelligence modifier?

Now as for something less theoretical: would IHS stopped cursed items?

AstralFire
2009-10-25, 01:23 PM
Doesn't burn...doesn't burn...that sounds like the same kind of 'science' that declared Pluto to not be a planet. Technically correct, but a waste of time to point out.

It is amazing that in a thread about Iron Heart Surge, there is still a statement which simply stands above all others, leaving me no recourse but to speak with it.

If you're going to start having a discussion involving the mechanics of the sun, the difference between a cosmic fusion reactor and a burning log is relevant. The two have very different reactions.

Declaring Pluto not-a-planet is only a 'waste of time' if you're not an astronomer. In fact, I would argue that the waste of time there has more to do with caring about keeping 'tradition' alive for the sake of an insignificant and distant rock/ice ball in the middle of an entire belt full of rock/ice balls.