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Tequila Sunrise
2009-10-22, 09:11 PM
One thing that always bugged me about 3e is the lack of clear guidelines for how much and what kind of magical bling a character of X level should have. Obviously Joe Adventurer is supposed to have some bling, because the DMG alone has so darned much of it. But how much and what kinds is he, for lack of a better word, entitled to have in order to pull his own weight/remain competent/call himself a bona fide 3e adventurer?

For now let's assume Joe the Noncaster Adventurer, because non-casters need bling more than casters and because it's easier to quantify bling bonuses than wands and other caster junk. For simplicity's sake let's divide the twenty levels into four-level groups:

1-4: A +1 weapon? Two +1 weapons? +1 armor? +1 amy of nat armor? +1 ring of prot? +1 cloak of res? A potion? Ten potions? A +2 stat booster? A bag of holding?
5-8: +2 bling across the board? A +4 stat booster? A second stat booster? Boots of flying?
9-12: +3 bling across the board? A +6 stat booster? A third stat booster? An Item of Arguable Brokeness [animated shield]? Items that grant SoD immunity?
13-16: +4 bling across the board? A +1 manual/tome? A +5 manual/tome? A Belt of Magnificence? An item of teleportation?
17-20: +5 bling across the board? An artifact? A dozen +1 bonuses of miscellaneous and questionable nature?

Note: I know none of this bling is really necessary if you're a smart DM, or if your players really enjoy sadism, but let's assume a typical game. So no house ruled inherent PC bonuses and monsters and CR by the book.

2nd Note: I know about the WBL guidelines too; I want clear guidelines that don't just push new DMs toward the trap of random treasure tables.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-22, 09:31 PM
A character should have as much as they can afford, frankly. What they should be able to afford is defined by the Wealth By Level chart, on page 135 of the DMG.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-22, 09:37 PM
What's wrong with random treasure tables? If you get bored with the core ones, MiC has some lovely random magic item tables to mix things up a bit.

Rhiannon87
2009-10-22, 09:38 PM
A character should have as much as they can afford, frankly. What they should be able to afford is defined by the Wealth By Level chart, on page 135 of the DMG.

How much they can afford and how much they can rip off the still-warm corpses of their fallen foes. Majority of my characters' stuff wasn't purchased, it was lifted from corpses and donned immediately. In that game, we're WAY over WBL because we fought numerous and difficult enemies. But the enemies are across the board harder, so... it balances out.

I think the enemies you're likely to be facing has something to do with it. Tougher enemies are going to have better gear, which then means the party will have better gear. It's a beautiful and sometimes painful cycle.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-22, 09:59 PM
I recommend ignoring that "Wealth by Level" chart entirely; I only use it when creating characters above 1st level.

Instead, a DM should maintain the average on Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter. Put enough stuff out there, as appropriate for the individual creatures you use, and let the PCs make decisions about what to do with their acquisitions. Micro-managing their finances is just too heavy-handed. If some player decides to take their character in a different direction because of some odd item they find, rather than just sell it and push ahead, that's an interesting development. You shouldn't reduce their holdings because they've invested a feat or class level to use the item better; that cheats them when they've paid for something with different character resources. Nor should you force the standard WbL repeatedly on someone who's taken Vow of Poverty; going through the motions of giving things away is just tedious and doesn't add any fun to the game.

UserClone
2009-10-22, 11:40 PM
Try taking a peek at the back of DMG II, I think it has a set of guidelines for how much phat lewts a character should have at a given level, though that may only be for NPCs...

tyckspoon
2009-10-23, 12:07 AM
For weapons and armor, characters should have items at least as good as they would get from having somebody cast Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment for them. They can get better ones faster than that if they want to invest in them, but that's the baseline- by level 4, they should at least have the opportunity to have a magic weapon and armor(they may decline it and decide they want to get plate armor or something first instead of getting a +1 Breastplate, but they should have the chance.) Beyond that.. there's not really any good way to gauge the game aside from checking the Wealth By Level charts against what you can buy with them and deciding if that seems like sufficient blinginess (generally, I find the low end is too stingy and the high end is overly generous. I don't think it's right that a basic magic weapon and armor take up effectively all of a level 3 character's assumed wealth- generally, if you have no money left after buying appropriate stat/save/AC boosters, then the bling ceiling needs to be raised some so you can pick up some things that are actually cool.)

Xenogears
2009-10-23, 12:23 AM
Nor should you force the standard WbL repeatedly on someone who's taken Vow of Poverty; going through the motions of giving things away is just tedious and doesn't add any fun to the game.

VoP only requires you to give most of your wealth to charity. Most is defined as more than half so you could give 50%-1 Copper Piece of your wealth to your allies as a VoP character. Alternatively have a group of four adventurers with 3 of them having VoP and the last one getting all the extra cash. One character gets 2.5X wealth.

jiriku
2009-10-23, 12:35 AM
The monster manual has some guidelines for monster creation which can be pretty easily transferred over to players, since monsters and players are built according to the same rules. If you bling yourself up to these standards, you'll be in the right ballpark.


Attack Bonus: (ECL*1.5)+2
Armor Class: ECL+13
Good Saves: ECL*1.5
Poor Saves: ECL

I'd recommend also:

Save DC: (ECL)+12Average Damage Per Round:

ECL*4 to multiple targets
ECL*6 to a single target

These are only broad guidelines, so apply according to your best judgement, and adjust for the character's role. Defenders probably need more AC and attack, strikers need more attack and damage, controllers don't care much about attack or damage but need save DC, etc.

Sintanan
2009-10-23, 01:30 AM
I think I figured out the perfect formula for too much bling.

Random encounter at the end of the adventure to get the whole party to level 4 (one player left early a few weeks back)... A large goblyn spider and 4 medium goblyn spiders...

Tracking one of the fleeing spiders back to their den uncovers a small pile of treasure in the webs... much effort clearing the den and gathering treasure (and some rolls on the random treasure table...)

Party walked away with a pair of jade inlaid gold rings worth 10000 and 12000...

Thus, the formula:
Two rolls of '00' on random art table for 4th level party = too much bling.


The next challenge the party faces... finding a way to sell them.:smalltongue:

Tequila Sunrise
2009-10-23, 11:56 AM
Let me put this differently folks: suppose you’re DMing a game. A) you’re planning loot drops, or B) a new player asks you what items to buy with all the cash you gave him. Suppose you want everyone to be on a relatively even keel, so a roll-randomly/laisez-faire attitude doesn’t cut it. Either way, what do you tell yourself/your new player?

Or, a different situation: You’re DMing and the optimizer uses his cash to jack his stats into the stratosphere while the actor uses his cash to buy interesting but useless junk. Clearly, you want to moderate them both a bit so they both have fun in and out of combat. What’s your ‘bling baseline’ that you use to give your players friendly tips or to restrict access to items?


A character should have as much as they can afford, frankly. What they should be able to afford is defined by the Wealth By Level chart, on page 135 of the DMG.

What's wrong with random treasure tables? If you get bored with the core ones, MiC has some lovely random magic item tables to mix things up a bit.
*sigh* WBL and random treasure tables don't say anything about what bling Joe should have. Going by them, he could end up with wildly innapropriate bling—a bag of holding full of useless trinkets, a few crazily overpowered items or doubles/triplicates of non-stacking items.

How much they can afford and how much they can rip off the still-warm corpses of their fallen foes. Majority of my characters' stuff wasn't purchased, it was lifted from corpses and donned immediately. In that game, we're WAY over WBL because we fought numerous and difficult enemies. But the enemies are across the board harder, so... it balances out.
Not necessarily; NPCs are notorious push-overs but if I remember correctly they carry more phat lewt than dragons. In any case, it doesn’t answer my question: how much and what type of bling does Joe Adventurer need to be a 3e adventurer?

Try taking a peek at the back of DMG II, I think it has a set of guidelines for how much phat lewts a character should have at a given level, though that may only be for NPCs...
I know this is an absurd notion, but suppose a DM doesn't have access to any given splatbook that may or may not be relevant to the question at hand.

(generally, I find the low end is too stingy and the high end is overly generous. I don't think it's right that a basic magic weapon and armor take up effectively all of a level 3 character's assumed wealth- generally, if you have no money left after buying appropriate stat/save/AC boosters, then the bling ceiling needs to be raised some so you can pick up some things that are actually cool.)
I totally agree.

VoP only requires you to give most of your wealth to charity. Most is defined as more than half so you could give 50%-1 Copper Piece of your wealth to your allies as a VoP character. Alternatively have a group of four adventurers with 3 of them having VoP and the last one getting all the extra cash. One character gets 2.5X wealth.
Not to get too far off-topic, but that’s laughably counter to the spirit of VoP. The point of the feat is to provide individual players a way of avoiding item-dependence if they so choose, without unbalancing the rest of the game.

Attack Bonus: (ECL*1.5)+2
Armor Class: ECL+13
Good Saves: ECL*1.5
Poor Saves: ECL
Let’s see, +1.5 AB per level; good BAB + weapon + stat boosts = almost perfect. But what about PCs with average BAB who need more AB? Are they supposed to have a constant Divine Power buff?

So every PC should have +1 AC per level; armor + ring + amulet = +3/4 per level. Where’s the other +1/4 coming from, oddball bonuses? Or do you assume that everyone uses a shield?

Moving on to saves: good BSB + cloak = ECL*3/4. What’s the deal, is every PC supposed to wear Dex, Con and Wis boosters and a bunch of oddball bonuses in addition to the standard issue cloak of resistance?

I also don’t see how +1 spell DCs or +4/6 dpr per level can be baselines.

hamishspence
2009-10-23, 12:04 PM
PHB 2 has a set of guidelines as to how much money you should have, and what you should be spending it on. Its used to create NPCs, but, the extra loot PCs get can be stacked on top of the NPC guidelines for expenditure.

I'm not sure how reliable these guidelines are, though- they might be underpowered.

To sum up:

Half your wealth should be spent on your weapon (or ability enhancing item, stff, wand, etc in the case of casters)

up to 3/4 of what remains on armour, shield, bracers, or other defensive items.

Most of what's left can be spent on miscellanous useful magic gear, and/or enhancers (and if high level, inherent bonus items like a manual of bodily health)

Curmudgeon
2009-10-23, 01:23 PM
*sigh* WBL and random treasure tables don't say anything about what bling Joe should have. Going by them, he could end up with wildly innapropriate bling—a bag of holding full of useless trinkets, a few crazily overpowered items or doubles/triplicates of non-stacking items. I think you''re worrying unnecessarily, TS. Inappropriate stuff and duplicates are most of what gets acquired, and what gets sold for half price. That's the way things are supposed to work. The nifty weapon you got from the corpse of an Ogre Mage probably is of an inappropriate size, so you sell it. Or maybe somebody decides to take Monkey Grip to make use of it; they're reducing the weapon's effective value by paying with other (non gp) resources. The occasional item that's actually on some party member's shopping list is just a coincidence, and DMs shouldn't distort the treasure to eliminate trips to Ye Olde Magick Mart.

Crazily overpowered items aren't an issue, because they're much more expensive than the loot that would be possible by the encounter treasure values. (If you think standard items are overpowered that's another discussion entirely.)

Telonius
2009-10-23, 01:43 PM
Let me put this differently folks: suppose you’re DMing a game. A) you’re planning loot drops, or B) a new player asks you what items to buy with all the cash you gave him. Suppose you want everyone to be on a relatively even keel, so a roll-randomly/laisez-faire attitude doesn’t cut it. Either way, what do you tell yourself/your new player?

Or, a different situation: You’re DMing and the optimizer uses his cash to jack his stats into the stratosphere while the actor uses his cash to buy interesting but useless junk. Clearly, you want to moderate them both a bit so they both have fun in and out of combat. What’s your ‘bling baseline’ that you use to give your players friendly tips or to restrict access to items?


For a new player: depends on the class. Go to the WBL chart, and use that for the baseline wealth. If it's a fighter-type or a non-cloistered Cleric, spend it mostly on your attack and defensive items, and use a bit of what's left on stat boosters and randomly helpful items. If it's a caster, ignore the attack item, and go for the stat-boosters, save-boosters, and scrolls of stuff you might not use all the time but would still want access to. For a skillmonkey, slightly less emphasis on the weapon, but bump up the stats and saves.

For the optimizer: Congratulations, you have high stats. Have fun climbing the cliff without any rope. For the Actor: Some gentle nudging usually works. Custom magical items might be in order as well. Your guy really likes using a Sustaining Spoon? Tack on 8000gp (Amulet of Con +2 = 4000, *2 for no space limitation) and call it a Hearty Sustaining Spoon, granting +2 to Con for 24 hours, usable 1/day.

For restricting access to items: don't. Either the item is allowed, or it's not. (Sample things to ban: Candle of Invocation, Nightsticks). No more than half your net worth on one item. Other than that, go nuts.

(EDIT: You can also use the gold piece limit by town size as well, found right next to the WBL chart iirc).



*sigh* WBL and random treasure tables don't say anything about what bling Joe should have. Going by them, he could end up with wildly innapropriate bling—a bag of holding full of useless trinkets, a few crazily overpowered items or doubles/triplicates of non-stacking items.


This is where judgment comes into play. Feel free to re-roll if it's an inappropriate item. Scorcher, the Fire Mage of Burnopolis, is probably not going to have a Trident of Fish Command, so re-roll that nonsense if it comes up. Duplicates of items is not a problem. They can be sold (or if you have an Artificer in the group, eaten and repurposed).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 01:46 PM
Tack on 8000 gp? Are you mad? Since the fellow isn't very optimization-minded, he'll take that. Now he has a useless item and an overpriced Constitution boost. Double gimp.

Telonius
2009-10-23, 01:48 PM
... as well as an empty Amulet slot that he can still use for anything else, and a really nifty spoon that he seems to enjoy.

Milskidasith
2009-10-23, 01:50 PM
Considering you can put +2 constitution on just about any other amulet for free, it wouldn't be freeing up an amulet slot unless he already had a stacked amulet, which is unlikely considering he isn't an optimizer and probably doesn't have the MiC custom item rules memorized.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 01:50 PM
Suppose he buys an Amulet of Whatever Effect. By RAW in the MIC, he could just tack on the +2 Con effect for 4000 gp. Now, by RAW, he has his amulet of choice, his spoon, and 4000 more gp. Taking the x2 price for slotless is very, very frequently a poor idea.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-23, 01:55 PM
Well, on a tangental note about magical bling, a party I was GMing for once had a Dungeon Mule. Then they 'tricked him out'.

Gold Tooth of Sustenance. Because mules don't have finger slots.

Horseshoes of Speed. Could also activate a Haste effect, similar to Boots of Speed, with command word "NOS"

The pack had four lanterns attached to it. Two bulls-eye lanterns in the front, and two regular ones in the back. One of the regular ones in the back was a Lantern of Revealing. It also had several Haversacks and Saddlebags of Holding for storing all the bulky loot.

Then they gave him Goggles of the Night, which resembled Oaklies.

Finally, they gave him a 'paint job'. And a theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn2dDd7GZzw).

Even better, he was the Ranger's 'animal companion', which gave it Evasion and a few other things to help it survive.

Doug Lampert
2009-10-23, 01:57 PM
*sigh* WBL and random treasure tables don't say anything about what bling Joe should have. Going by them, he could end up with wildly innapropriate bling—a bag of holding full of useless trinkets, a few crazily overpowered items or doubles/triplicates of non-stacking items.
Which he sells for half price and has the wizard craft replacements for 70% price, 20% of which the wizard keeps as profit which more than makes up for any ephemeral power loss do to the XP cost. Or you buy or order from an NPC for 100% price.

Who wanders arround with extra loot? The DMG has rules for what you can sell and for how much. Use them.

Inappropriate bling is a TRIVIALLY solvable non-problem. Random loot works just fine in a campaign with even minimal downtime every level or two or with even ONE metropolis in the accessable parts of the world.

Telonius
2009-10-23, 01:58 PM
Okay, maybe bad example with the spoon. I just picked one of the useless items at random - other things might apply if your player thinks that Boots of Levitation are the awesomest thing evar, or if he keeps that Golembane Scarab on for his whole adventuring career. The point remains - work with what your player likes and wants to do. (You can even waive that *2 price modifier if it makes the game easier and more fun for everybody).




Well, on a tangental note about magical bling, a party I was GMing for once had a Dungeon Mule. Then they 'tricked him out'.

Gold Tooth of Sustenance. Because mules don't have finger slots.

Horseshoes of Speed. Could also activate a Haste effect, similar to Boots of Speed, with command word "NOS"

The pack had four lanterns attached to it. Two bulls-eye lanterns in the front, and two regular ones in the back. One of the regular ones in the back was a Lantern of Revealing. It also had several Haversacks and Saddlebags of Holding for storing all the bulky loot.

Then they gave him Goggles of the Night, which resembled Oaklies.

Finally, they gave him a 'paint job'. And a theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn2dDd7GZzw).

Even better, he was the Ranger's 'animal companion', which gave it Evasion and a few other things to help it survive.

Please tell me the Ranger wasn't an Ogre.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-23, 02:01 PM
(You can even waive that *2 price modifier if it makes the game easier and more fun for everybody).

What I'm arguing (probably too obliquely. >_<) is that that *2 shouldn't be expressed as "you can even waive it". It should be expressed as "you should waive it". If you have optimizers and non-optimizers in the same party, you should do whatever you can to level the playing field - and that means positive handicaps for the non-optimizers (i.e. cheaper items), or at the very least not trying to make subpar choices appealing-looking.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-23, 02:05 PM
Please tell me the Ranger wasn't an Ogre.

No, we weren't trying to do a Shrek ripoff... give us that much credit, at least.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-23, 02:36 PM
When the Magic Item Compendium was being designed & written, the authors did some research & came up with a list of the 6 most-used kinds of magic items.

Magic Items People Really Use

magic weapon
magic armor & shield
Ring of protection
Cloak of resistance
Amulet of natural armor
ability-score boosters

So get the best weapon you can afford, the best armor you can afford, a RoP, a CoR, an AoNA, & then whatever boosters you can buy with your remaining capital. That should take care of most situations.

jiriku
2009-10-23, 02:43 PM
Let’s see, +1.5 AB per level; good BAB + weapon + stat boosts = almost perfect. But what about PCs with average BAB who need more AB? Are they supposed to have a constant Divine Power buff?

So every PC should have +1 AC per level; armor + ring + amulet = +3/4 per level. Where’s the other +1/4 coming from, oddball bonuses? Or do you assume that everyone uses a shield?

Moving on to saves: good BSB + cloak = ECL*3/4. What’s the deal, is every PC supposed to wear Dex, Con and Wis boosters and a bunch of oddball bonuses in addition to the standard issue cloak of resistance?

I also don’t see how +1 spell DCs or +4/6 dpr per level can be baselines.

These are good concerns. I'll try to address each.

First of all, YMMV. In an unoptimized game with basic challenges, lower numbers will suffice. In a highly optimized game with a killer DM, higher numbers are necessary. These numbers are approximations that serve as a jumping-off point, not a final answer.

What about PCs with average BAB?

These PCs need to seek bling that grants to-hit bonuses, either gear-related bling like magic weapons or ability enhancers, or feat-related bling like weapon focus, knowledge devotion, or acrobatic strike, or class-related bling like smite, bardic music, or bull's strength.


Where do PCs get armor bonuses?

Yeah, oddball bonuses would fill in the remainder, or non-AC effects that contribute to making you hard to hit or harm. For example, effects that grant a miss chance are as good as or better than AC in most situations, while effects that add damage reduction are good mitigators, especially for characters with low AC who are likely to take a lot of hits. It's not as hard as you might think. A character in +1 plate with +1 ring and +1 amulet and Dex 12 has AC 22 already, while a wizard with wind walland fly is likewise terribly hard to hit.


How to get good saves?

Temporary bonuses mostly, from spells, bardic music, stat boosters, or the like. There's a reason that stat booster items are considered such a must-have that Wizards added rules in the Magic Item Compendium allowing you to stack a stat enhancement onto another magic item without paying the +50% stacking fee.


How to increase save DCs?

At first level, your best spells should be at least DC 13, which is achievable with a 14 stat. Easy - you're probably well ahead of that. At 20th level, your best spells should be at DC 32, which is 10+9 (spell level) +3 (stat booster item) +6 (22 base stat after ability bumps) +4 (misc. bonuses like spell focus, racial bonuses, item bonuses or inherent stat bonuses). Between these extremes, scale the bonuses. You can also approach this DC in a "virtual" fashion by debuffing your enemies' saving throws with effects like prayer, fear, orb of acid, ability-draining poison, a hexblade curse, etc.


Is it realistic to deal that much damage?

Effects that deal at least ECL*4 damage to multiple targets at level 10: empowered fireball, haste, great cleave+ubercharger build.

Effects that deal at least ECL*6 damage to a single target at level 10: the above-mentioned ubercharger, a full attack from an enlarged fighter with adjusted 24 strength (assuming 18 Str +4 item +2 enlarge) and a +2 greatsword, using power attack for -3, a full attack from a flanking rogue with TWF.



The numbers may seem higher than what you play with, but as I said, they're merely a baseline that may be useful in building characters who can hit, harm the enemy, and survive in battle. A good "bling" guideline is that if your character falls significantly below one of these metrics, devote some bling to improving yourself in that area.

These guidelines are not meant to be hard-and-fast rules, or they wouldn't have been buried in the back of the Monster Manual. When I enhance and augment monsters (including NPCs with +0 LA races and PC classes!), or build new ones, I follow these guidelines and it seems to work pretty well. I don't run real high-powered games either.

Edit: Spoilered to remove wall of text.

Yora
2009-10-23, 02:45 PM
Interestingly, these are all passive bonuses. Which makes them not entertaining at all.

But they work in every situation, so they are useable in every group, with every party, in every adventure. But that does not mean that they are the ones players like the most. Onle the ones that most players like to some degree. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-23, 03:09 PM
Loadup every melee character would do well to consider:

* Lesser Cloak of Displacement. 20% miss chance due to Concealment means Rogues can no longer sneak attack you. Ever. The 20% chance of your opponent missing is gravy.

* +1 Armor of Choice. Really, you don't want more, if there is a reliable method of obtaining Magic Vestments in the party. Stack up equivelants as necessary. Mithral Chain Vest is good for higher-dex guys, Mithral Full Plate is better for 'heavies', or even Adamantine Full Plate if you feel the DR 3/- is worth it. Really, I don't see any reason why anyone else would wear anything different. Except Druids, of course, they can't wear metal. Then again, they don't need to.

* +5 Resistance on the Cloak of Displacement. +5 to all resists? Yes, please

* Necklace of Adaptation. Immunity to Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill, as well as other nasty effects. It also lets you breathe underwater, even in vacuum.

* Deflection bonus to AC. It works even when you are flat-footed, even against touch attacks. I don't care if you get it from Shield of Faith, or from a Ring of Protection, but it can be very vital if you face a bunch of incorporeal opponents who like to ambush from walls.

* Con bonus. Extra hit points means living longer. Do this.

* Strength bonus. Extra to hit and damage with melee attacks. If you are melee-centric, and haven't gone the Dex route, do this.

* Dex bonus. Situationally useful, but at least a total of 16 if you are in Full Plate never hurt. Much more vital to some builds.

* Haversack. No, really. Store your loot without weighing you down.

* Necklace of Fireballs. No, not to wear. "Gee, Mal... would sure be nice if we had some grenades..." Yea, these are those. Keep 'em safe in your Haversack, then toss in and explode. Good times.

* Pearl of Power. You want a Greater Magic Weapon? You want a Magic Vestments? You want your party caster to cast them on you and still be able to cast useful spells? This is what you give them to do that.

* Boots of Speed. Want extra attacks, AC, and to-hit? If your party arcane caster can't do it, you can do it for yourself.

* Boots of Flight. Let's face it, more and more things will be able to fly. If you can't, you loose.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 03:37 PM
* Pearl of Power. You want a Greater Magic Weapon? You want a Magic Vestments? You want your party caster to cast them on you and still be able to cast useful spells? This is what you give them to do that.

Well, actually, all they get back is the same spell. If the caster is already preparing it for himself, yeah, that works, but if not, they're still stuck with that spell.

Of course, Clerics are likely to prepare them anyway, so it's all good.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-23, 03:56 PM
Well, actually, all they get back is the same spell. If the caster is already preparing it for himself, yeah, that works, but if not, they're still stuck with that spell.

Of course, Clerics are likely to prepare them anyway, so it's all good.

Or, with Spell Mastery tricks, you can simply sacrifice it to cast a different spell.

But yea, this is how one can put a GMW on the whole party without Chain Reach shenanigans.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-10-23, 06:40 PM
For weapons and armor, characters should have items at least as good as they would get from having somebody cast Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment for them. They can get better ones faster than that if they want to invest in them, but that's the baseline- by level 4, they should at least have the opportunity to have a magic weapon and armor(they may decline it and decide they want to get plate armor or something first instead of getting a +1 Breastplate, but they should have the chance.)

Half your wealth should be spent on your weapon (or ability enhancing item, stff, wand, etc in the case of casters)

up to 3/4 of what remains on armour, shield, bracers, or other defensive items.

Most of what's left can be spent on miscellanous useful magic gear, and/or enhancers (and if high level, inherent bonus items like a manual of bodily health)

Loadup every melee character would do well to consider:



Attack Bonus: (ECL*1.5)+2
Armor Class: ECL+13
Good Saves: ECL*1.5
Poor Saves: ECL
I'd recommend also:
Save DC: (ECL)+12
Average Damage Per Round:
ECL*4 to multiple targets
ECL*6 to a single target
Okay, so we’ve got a few semi-clear opinions about bling guidelines. I guess I’m just wondering: if your guidelines depend on oddball bonuses and/or particular spells/class features, how do you know players will optimize well enough? Have you and your group been playing long enough that you’ve combed through every magical item, class and spell to know what you need to be Joe Adventurer? What happens when a new player joins your group? Do you hold their hand on Magick Mart shopping sprees and level-ups, or do you let them sink or swim on their own?


Well, on a tangental note about magical bling, a party I was GMing for once had a Dungeon Mule. Then they 'tricked him out'.
That. Is. Awesome. Did the mule last the campaign?

For restricting access to items: don't. Either the item is allowed, or it's not.
Banned, then. At what point do you start banning stuff? When he’s about to buy a +3 item at second level? When the optimizer combs through every book to find twelve different +1 bling bonuses to a single stat, and then wants to buy them all from Magick Mart? Or just short of swords of true striking?

I think you''re worrying unnecessarily, TS. Inappropriate stuff and duplicates are most of what gets acquired, and what gets sold for half price. That's the way things are supposed to work. The nifty weapon you got from the corpse of an Ogre Mage probably is of an inappropriate size, so you sell it. Or maybe somebody decides to take Monkey Grip to make use of it; they're reducing the weapon's effective value by paying with other (non gp) resources. The occasional item that's actually on some party member's shopping list is just a coincidence, and DMs shouldn't distort the treasure to eliminate trips to Ye Olde Magick Mart.
Okay then, so after all’s said and done and Joe returns from Ye Olde Magick Mart, what particular bling should he have bought to maintain his ‘competent adventurer' status?

Frosty
2009-10-23, 07:25 PM
Joe should buy things based on his in-character perceived needs of his next adventure.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-23, 07:25 PM
Okay then, so after all’s said and done and Joe returns from Ye Olde Magick Mart, what particular bling should he have bought to maintain his ‘competent adventurer' status?
Again, I wouldn't worry about it. If Joe chooses poorly, he'll die and Joe's player will learn a valuable lesson. If Joe chooses well, the game goes on. As a DM it's your job to let your players play. Constraining their fun, even if they end up making mistakes, is best avoided.

Tequila Sunrise
2009-10-23, 09:25 PM
Well I guess there's nothing like a trial by fire to forge a soft noobie into a hardcore gamer. Even if he'd rather just play his heroic character, rather than worrying about the Magick Mart mini-game?