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taltamir
2009-10-23, 04:08 PM
Does UMD require you to be able to speak to activate a wand?
EDIT1: if speaking is required, only the raven, imp and other speaking familiars could use it... But I see no indication that it does.

Familiars share a master's skills... so it stands to reason that they will have access to UMD should the master put points in it.

A wands description is 6 - 12 inches, under 1 once, and 1/4 inch thick... so a 6 inch one sounds like it is pencil sized to me. I see no reason why most familiars should not be able to grab a pencil... many could probably hold it in one or two hands. A rat shouldn't have a problem holding a pencil... maybe it wouldn't aim very well, but most spells do NOT require a ranged touch attack, they just go where you will them to.

EDIT2:

Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Zovc
2009-10-23, 04:11 PM
I don't think so... if speaking is something you can't do, you should be able to 'emulate' the prerequisite speaking, anyways.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 04:21 PM
well, looking at UMD it says you need to speak a word to activate "command word" items. But it does not mention anything for activating a wand. So it stands to reason that a wand will not require it...

Scrolls that have no verbal components also stand to reason in this regard.

And wands:

Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

So... which animals can hold it in "something passing for a hand"
Which should have trouble aiming spells that require a ranged touch attack?

Looking at basic list:
Bat - no clue
Cat - can't hold in paws
Hawk - can hold, trouble aiming.
Lizard - can hold
Owl - can hold, trouble aiming.
Rat - can hold
Raven - can hold, trouble aiming, can speak
Snake - cannot hold
Weasel - no clue

Moriato
2009-10-23, 04:33 PM
well, looking at UMD it says you need to speak a word to activate "command word" items. But it does not mention anything for activating a wand. So it stands to reason that a wand will not require it...


UMD might not mention it, but wands use "Spell Trigger activation".



Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken.

Akal Saris
2009-10-23, 04:44 PM
Also, the familiar description notes that "regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use."

So even if a raven were able to talk and point a very small wand at something with its claws, the skill itself might be beyond the familiar's abilities, even if the master had 10 ranks in it. A raven with 6 int (1st level wizard) would certainly have more trouble with understanding what to do than a raven with 13 int (15th level wizard).

taltamir
2009-10-23, 04:54 PM
Also, the familiar description notes that "regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use."

So even if a raven were able to talk and point a very small wand at something with its claws, the skill itself might be beyond the familiar's abilities, even if the master had 10 ranks in it. A raven with 6 int (1st level wizard) would certainly have more trouble with understanding what to do than a raven with 13 int (15th level wizard).

point... I guess a +int item would help here...

what about the imp than? it can speak and has:
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14

So, it can activate any sorcerer forged wand, and level 2 or below cleric wands... it will require a +2 wis item for level 3 and 4 cleric wants, and +int items for wizard forged wands...

Actually, question, does wizard forged / sorc forged wand differ in their activation stat? or does it not matter and stat depends on the class of the one activating it? in which case, which should be needed by the familiar?

also:

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

So, emulating int 14 is a DC 29 UMD check.

Zaydos
2009-10-23, 04:57 PM
I don't think you need level +10 in the stat with wands, but to understand what you are supposed to do and do it properly might require Int above 6. Imps should have no problem (or at least that's how I'd rule it).

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-23, 04:58 PM
Get a monkey familiar at 5th level. you now have something that can manipulate the wand, is above animal int and can speak.


Now honestly lets not try to strip away the one thing that makes familiars useful shall we?

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:00 PM
ah yes, a monkey. Great idea there (I was thinking it too). Does monkey require an improved familiar feat?

What other creatures would qualify for speaking and or grabbing?
Parrots can also speak, but have the same grabbing issues a raven would.
I think only primates can speak and grab stuff well IRL.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-23, 05:03 PM
It shouldn't. It's a damn monkey, not a hellhound or a demon/devil, but let me have a look...


Found it listed in a few Dragon Mags.

Again, I'd say almost anything could pull off using a wand as far as familiars go so long as it has a way to hold the wand. A cat, toad, snake or dog is out. But a rat, raccoon, any bird big enough to grasp the wand in its claws, an octopus (now that is a cute image ^_^ ), etc should be fine

As for the speaking, familiars gain the ability to speak with their masters. This is not telepathy, it is verbal communication.

sofawall
2009-10-23, 05:22 PM
Familiars share a master's skills... so it stands to reason that they will have access to UMD should the master put points in it.


Most annoying part there is it isn't a class skill for Sorc/Wiz.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 05:29 PM
Most annoying part there is it isn't a class skill for Sorc/Wiz.

well yes... the theif is the only one who knows how to use magic items... not the guy who spends his life learning magic... :)

sofawall
2009-10-23, 05:31 PM
well yes... the theif is the only one who knows how to use magic items... not the guy who spends his life learning magic... :)

Bards are better at it, actually.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 05:34 PM
Assuming it can point the wand and speak the single word to activate it, it would just need a dc20 umd check (The familiar's int penalty or bonus does apply, the caster's does not).

For scrolls you need the usual minimun INT with UMD, for wands you do not.

Moriato
2009-10-23, 05:36 PM
Most annoying part there is it isn't a class skill for Sorc/Wiz.

Be glad this isn't 3.0 where it was a prohibited skill for almost everyone.

arguskos
2009-10-23, 05:48 PM
Tal, just so you know, I'm keeping tabs on this discussion. I'll probably permit what you want to do with it, but I'm still considering. Just thought I'd let you know. :smallwink:

Bayar
2009-10-23, 06:01 PM
Well, you shouldnt be using UMD familiars with wizards/sorcerers in the first place. I mean, sure, they get familiars for free. But what about other benefits? Not really a lot. Poor BAB, no UMD as class skill, D4 HP (familiars have half the masters HP).

What you need is this familiar handbook: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870010/The_Familiars_Handbook__2007 (it kinda got screwed with the formatting, but whatever).

good_lookin_gus
2009-10-23, 06:03 PM
Most annoying part there is it isn't a class skill for Sorc/Wiz.

This is the biggest reason I like the Loremsater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm) PrC. That, and the speed at which it can develop a new skill.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 06:06 PM
I think the familiar handbook has an error:

The best types you can acquire are those that don't depend on many HD, because familiars don't gain bonus HD.
Familiars HD is equal to caster HD (or it is the caster level? not sure, ill look it up), their HP is equal to half their caster's HP regardless of their HD though. (the HD is only there to determine what they are immune to)
EDIT: nevermind, they mention that... I think that this is meant to mean "don't get a familiar with tons of HD, since it gets the master's HD... get a familiar with low HD and good abilities instead"

sofawall
2009-10-23, 06:09 PM
get a familiar with low HD and good abilities instead

I think they mean the Hummingbird.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 06:27 PM
the hummingbird is nice...

speaking of nice familiars... Gold dragon wyrmling:
1. When it ages it leaves, but without the XP penalty and it remains friendly towards you assuming your relationship was good and you weren't abusive. (only 5 years from birth till it leaves though). But that can be a bonus... every five years get another loyal dragon friend :) while the previous ones are just getting more powerful friends and allies with age.
2. It is medium sized.
3. It starts with really good abilities, skills, feats and HD.
4. It has the ability to assume a human shape. and stay in said shape.

So a gold wyrmling dragon can just stay in human form all the time (unless it specifically needs to change)... wear magic items, activate magic items, use UMD (which it should have from its own natural HD) to activate wands, scrolls, or use items, etc...
It is essentially a cohort, and a familiar. and thanks to it being a familiar it gets natural armor while being in human shape from being a familiar (since its min level is level 14... thats is a min of +7 natural AC).

good_lookin_gus
2009-10-23, 06:38 PM
speaking of nice familiars... Gold dragon wyrmling

I remember that getting a lot of reverence. What level do you need to be to aquire one?

taltamir
2009-10-23, 06:42 PM
min level is 14 for a gold dragon.
You can take other dragon familiars at lower level though... and the familiar bond with a dragon breaks WITHOUT losing any XP when it reaches age 5 years.

Frosty
2009-10-23, 07:10 PM
This is why I like Beguilers with a familiar. UMD? No problem.

ericgrau
2009-10-23, 07:28 PM
Well, you shouldnt be using UMD familiars with wizards/sorcerers in the first place. I mean, sure, they get familiars for free. But what about other benefits? Not really a lot. Poor BAB, no UMD as class skill, D4 HP (familiars have half the masters HP).


Economy of actions. 2 actions per turn is incredibly effective. If your familiar can use a wand at the same time that you do something else, you've hit paydirt. Dipping loremaster for UMD and instant mastery (UMD) sounds like a cool idea.


well yes... the theif is the only one who knows how to use magic items... not the guy who spends his life learning magic... :)

The thief fakes it with a check, sometimes emulating this or that. The wizard can use wizard wands of any level automatically, no check.

elonin
2009-10-23, 08:52 PM
yea but wizards have trouble with casting cleric/druid only spells. That said I love playing a beguiler for social skills and umd.

Eldariel
2009-10-23, 09:00 PM
yea but wizards have trouble with casting cleric/druid only spells. That said I love playing a beguiler for social skills and umd.

I enjoy Unseen Seers, Loremasters and even Arcane Tricksters (though the entry requirements are horrible for a skill monkey; Decipher Script & Escape Artist, WTF?) for the very same reason.

Ponce
2009-10-23, 09:02 PM
You could wait until 7th and get an Imp. I doubt many DMs would argue that imps can't use wands.

taltamir
2009-10-23, 09:17 PM
The thief fakes it with a check, sometimes emulating this or that. The wizard can use wizard wands of any level automatically, no check.

The theif can fake out magic items, alignment, and spells from wizard list, and spells from divine sources.
The wizard cannot fake out magic items, alignment for items, and spells from divine sources, he can only cast higher level spells from wizard list.
It is not that a theif should not be able to fake out a cleric item, its that for some reason a wizard is incapable of faking out a cleric item / wand / wrong alignment item, etc as well as a theif.


You could wait until 7th and get an Imp. I doubt many DMs would argue that imps can't use wands.

You could, there is actually a whole list of familiars which are tiny humanoids and can both speak and hold wands... It will certainly be one way to ensure you can do so. Get a monkey if you don't want to spend a feat on improved familiar.

Because polymorph at will wasn't enough of an advantage over other familiar types :) (EDIT: I was wrong, they don't get polymorph at will)

Ruling that animal type familiars can use a wand (if an imp can as well) makes it more reasonable to take one of them instead of everyone taking an imp.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-23, 09:19 PM
Because polymorph at will wasn't powerful enough for an imp to have :)



Alternate Form (Su)
An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.

Not quite.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-23, 09:35 PM
"WAND MONKEY! HEAL YOUR MASTER NOW!"
I approve.

I'm imagining a loud-mouthed, obnoxious wizard, and a monkey with a golf-club-bag full of wands. For some reason the Wizard always ends up as Bob Fossil, though.

"NO YOU RETARDED BANANA-PERSON, THAT'S THE WAND OF MAGIC MISSILE! USE THE ONE WITH THE LITTLE HEARTS ON IT! Stupid hairy-tail-man."

taltamir
2009-10-24, 02:41 AM
I just have to say, I love the happy illithid picture...
And the notion of your familiar zapping you with the magic missile wand instead of the CLW one is hillarious :)

I noticed the wand description says only the length varies, 6 to 12 inches... but the width is just always 1/4 inch... I said it is like a pencil, but it even thinner than a pencil... it is like a fat toothpick, how does it not shatter a the lightest touch is beyond me.

These are nothing like the harry potter style wands (which is what I assume most people think of when they think of a wand)

Zaydos
2009-10-24, 03:17 AM
I generally picture something around 1" thick and from 10" to 24" in length myself, sometimes even cane sized.

Ernir
2009-10-24, 05:31 AM
I generally picture something around 1" thick and from 10" to 24" in length myself, sometimes even cane sized.

What do your staves look like, then? :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 11:15 AM
What do your staves look like, then? :smalltongue:10' poles. Duh

Bayar
2009-10-24, 11:57 AM
I picture wands as drum sticks. Shiny drum sticks.

Zaydos
2009-10-24, 01:25 PM
What do your staves look like, then? :smalltongue:

5' - 6' long walking sticks. The real question is rods.

taltamir
2009-10-24, 02:28 PM
I always pictured them like drumsticks as well... but I like the look they described, imagining a wizard gently holding something that small with his fingertips as he rains death and destruction is just hilarious.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 06:19 PM
it seems that for this to work well your DM must rule one fo the following:
1. "skill focus" makes a skill a class skill.
2. Once a class skill, always a class skill (take a one level dip)

Alternative you can play a full caster with UMD as class skill and familiar. Or one that doesn't have familiar and take a familiar with a feat.

You will likely want to take improved familiar for Imp Familiar, or any other humanoid familiar (lots of outsiders or fey are humanoids). Or dragon, or something else that can handle the verbal and somatic components.

The regular familiars are either gonna have trouble grabbing stuff, or have trouble with speaking.

Wait, is there some item of +UMD? giving a familiar such an item (and maybe +cha) along with skill focus + maxed out cross class UMD can actually work.
Level 11 means your max CC skill is 7. Add 3 from skill focus for a 10. Add 1 from +2 cha item on familiar, add some UMD increasing item, and maybe a few more if your familiar is naturally high cha and you got yourself a wand user.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 06:25 PM
Able Learner does #2, and Skill Training from Unearthed Arcana permanently adds a class skill. I'm not sure where, logically, the first suggestion comes from; if GM was going to houserule anything wouldn't GM just throw the class skill at you for any random skill feat?

taltamir
2009-10-29, 06:56 PM
Able Learner does #2, and Skill Training from Unearthed Arcana permanently adds a class skill. I'm not sure where, logically, the first suggestion comes from; if GM was going to houserule anything wouldn't GM just throw the class skill at you for any random skill feat?

1. Able learner only makes it cheaper, it doesn't increase the max.
2. Skill training will do the trick very nicely.
3. The DM could have made those as sweeping house rules for everyone (mine did) and this is just a new application of those rules that happened to come up.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 07:01 PM
1. Able learner only makes it cheaper, it doesn't increase the max.

But if you had it once as a class skill, the max is that of a class skill. The relevant problem is that it not being a class skill for your current class increases cost, which Able Learner bypasses.

Mad Wizard
2009-10-29, 07:03 PM
I made a post about this a while ago, which is linked in my signature. There's some discussion about it there. I used to think I was the original creator of the idea, but since this topic seems to reappear every few months, I'm not so sure anymore.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 07:40 PM
I made a post about this a while ago, which is linked in my signature. There's some discussion about it there. I used to think I was the original creator of the idea, but since this topic seems to reappear every few months, I'm not so sure anymore.

very nice, you seem to go over the same points...
I don't want to resurrect that thread since it is 2 years old. but i will answer one question that came up in it.
Q: Can a raven aim a wand.
A: Why would he be casting spells that require touch attacks or ranged touch attacks anyways? Most spells you just decide the exact location or targets and it hits them by magic.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 07:43 PM
Except you do have to aim to decide those directions and targets. Magic or not, designating a space not in your field of view is impossible (which is why you turn as a nonaction), and similar "facing" rules might cause minor difficulty with a wand. This is why the wand allows to get the right area if you're close enough.

What was the point of my post? :P

taltamir
2009-10-29, 07:48 PM
you have to aim "in the general direction"... not "exactly at them". it is there in the rules about wand activation.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 08:04 PM
This is why the wand allows to get the right area if you're close enough.

What was the point of my post? :P

Yeah, general direction. If your arc is close enough you can get them.

I realize now that the point of these posts is to elaborate and thereby clarify rules interpretations.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 08:11 PM
oh, and they CAN EASILY carry and aim it since by raw it is:
1. less an ounce in weight
2. 6 to 12 inches
3. 1/4 of a inch in diameter. (that is LESS then a pencil)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 08:43 PM
Didn't they say that in the actual thread?

ericgrau
2009-10-29, 09:41 PM
I just have to say, I love the happy illithid picture...
And the notion of your familiar zapping you with the magic missile wand instead of the CLW one is hillarious :)

I noticed the wand description says only the length varies, 6 to 12 inches... but the width is just always 1/4 inch... I said it is like a pencil, but it even thinner than a pencil... it is like a fat toothpick, how does it not shatter a the lightest touch is beyond me.

(measures pencil) Exactly 1/4". Now take a pencil and bang it against your desk. Ya, doesn't break does it? Heck, try to even snap it in just one hand.

Thurbane
2009-10-29, 09:45 PM
Most annoying part there is it isn't a class skill for Sorc/Wiz.
Some feats can fix this, as can the Human Paragon class, and several prestige classes (including Loremaster). Also, Bards and Beguilers if they use the Obtain Familiar feat.

...hmm, now I'm picturing an Imp with a Rod of Many Wands. Here comes the boom! :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-10-29, 09:48 PM
(measures pencil) Exactly 1/4". Now take a pencil and bang it against your desk. Ya, doesn't break does it? Heck, try to even snap it in just one hand.

sorry, I am a metric person. I was sure 1/4" is smaller than a pencil.

Thurbane
2009-10-29, 09:49 PM
Approx 6mm thick, and 150-300mm long. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-10-29, 09:52 PM
Approx 6mm thick, and 150-300mm long. :smallwink:

ok, that is sturdy enough than... It is basically pencil sized. maybe an extra long pencil...
Perfectly sized to give to most familiars.

Darrin
2009-10-29, 10:23 PM
As for the speaking, familiars gain the ability to speak with their masters. This is not telepathy, it is verbal communication.

I'm not sure this works... the familiar needs to verbally communicate with the spell-trigger item, not its master. If not...

Pearl of Speech, MIC, 600 GP. Problem solved.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 10:40 PM
or just cast tongues on him if you don't wanna spend the money on an item. heck... make it permanent tongues with permanency.

Gralamin
2009-10-29, 11:00 PM
or just cast tongues on him if you don't wanna spend the money on an item. heck... make it permanent tongues with permanency.

1 XP = 5 GP. So, your saying "Cast a spell that can be dispelled, and valued at about 7500 GP instead of buying the 600 gp item if you don't feel like spending money on it."

taltamir
2009-10-29, 11:24 PM
1 XP = 5 GP. So, your saying "Cast a spell that can be dispelled, and valued at about 7500 GP instead of buying the 600 gp item if you don't feel like spending money on it."

Yea that was stupid..
I meant permanency as an alternative to casting it daily (thus wasting a slot)... and the daily casting as an alternative to the item (since the casting is essentially free)...
but unless the item is unavailable then the permanency makes no sense.

Thurbane
2009-10-30, 02:14 AM
So, a caster with an Imp familiar, Rod of Many Wands, decent UMD, and the Dual Wand Wielder feat could pop off 5 wands in a round. It would get expensive pretty fast, though.

The Imp would be pretty cool as a healer. Pop 3 wands of Cure Serious Wounds into your Rod, and suddenly in-combat healing becomes viable (12d8+21/round), nice if you're a gish with money to burn. :smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-30, 02:26 AM
I'm not sure this works... the familiar needs to verbally communicate with the spell-trigger item, not its master. If not...

Pearl of Speech, MIC, 600 GP. Problem solved.

And? You and your familiar can speak a language. Granted, only the two of you speak it, but the amount of speakers matters not at all. That should be enough, after all, if the language mattered, then the items would mention it.

sonofzeal
2009-10-30, 02:40 AM
"WAND MONKEY! HEAL YOUR MASTER NOW!"
I approve.

I'm imagining a loud-mouthed, obnoxious wizard, and a monkey with a golf-club-bag full of wands. For some reason the Wizard always ends up as Bob Fossil, though.

"NO YOU RETARDED BANANA-PERSON, THAT'S THE WAND OF MAGIC MISSILE! USE THE ONE WITH THE LITTLE HEARTS ON IT! Stupid hairy-tail-man."

You, sir, win +5 internetz for making a Mighty Boosh joke on a D&D forum. =P

taltamir
2009-10-30, 02:54 PM
And? You and your familiar can speak a language. Granted, only the two of you speak it, but the amount of speakers matters not at all. That should be enough, after all, if the language mattered, then the items would mention it.

the presumption is that the familiar is just making animal noises and you understand him due to the telepathic bond between you. Thus the familiar will be unable to pronounce the magic trigger words.