OOTS #687 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Nice work.

Hoo boy. Belkar... :smallbiggrin:

It's just really funny that he's unable to consider the concept of a "gift".

And that belt is going to be really useful, I can tell.

What's in the box! What's in the box!

Ooh, will the rest of the party get gifts too?

[Dark Faun]

Very nice comic. :smallsmile:

I love how nobody is surprised when Belkar let it slip that his "goodness" is an act. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

I love the title.

[Shanty Man]

Very good Rich... but I wonder what the present is

[TheBigChulupa]

More Belkar fix for all!

[Zanaril]

And Roy gets a costume update!

[Prowl]

Hooray for miniquest rewards!

[Dark Faun]

Very good Rich... but I wonder what the present is
A Get Out Of Prophesied Death Free card. :smalltongue:

[Super_slash2]

I don't understand what the title is referring to. Is it referring to Belkar? Also, does this mean that everyone knows he was faking being helpful? Because if so, that's kind-of sad, I liked the new Belkar.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Very good Rich... but I wonder what the present is

A wisdom boosting item? An item that can only be used if you have a Good or Non-Evil alignment?

I think it could be an item with an enchantment that Belkar either considers unimportant or not as good as the ones he already has and he throws it away.

[Zordrath]

See, that's why Belkar has to live :smalltongue: Great comic :smallbiggrin: (and nice title, too)

[The Recreator]

Brilliant comic. It's just as much a commentary on the way society views killings as it is about Belkar. :smalltongue:

(Or is that reading a bit too much into it?)

[Mauve Shirt]

Heehee :smalltongue: IT'S WORKING!

[Arctic]

So oases in the OotS universe are the equivalent of our gas stations? It's those little creative tidbits that makes me love OotS so much more :smallbiggrin:.

[MickJay]

I've been looking forward to a strip like this, and now it's here. :smallbiggrin:

[Alysar]

I don't understand what the title is referring to. Is it referring to Belkar? Also, does this mean that everyone knows he was faking being helpful? Because if so, that's kind-of sad, I liked the new Belkar.

It's a reference to Belkar's line in the last panel. It means he's probably the least popular person there.

[Salty]

Heh, the comic was great, and then the title made me laugh out loud. That was great! Oh, and the high water prices in the first panel were quite funny as well. Interesting metaphor.

[thepsyker]

Belkar needs to work on his bluff rolls if he doesn't want to give the game away, generally a good tip would be to not shout about how your lies are working to the one you are lying.

[Errandir]

Great strip. It was a nice surprise to click on 'latest comic' from the cast page and see a new one up.

And, hi everybody. :smallsmile:

[Haven]

The camel fuel made me chuckle.

As did the title of the strip. Actually I've noticed the recent strip titles have been addressing the characters a lot lately...my new epileptic tree is that this means that Blackwing is the one titling them, or maybe the titles themselves are a newly sentient independent being.

[Morty]

And so, Belkar finally grasps the social mechanics that lets adventurers be heroes rather than brigands. Took him long enough.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, monster races with antisocial tendencies.

Adventurers all need someone to be able to kill, and they deliver.

[AdInfinitum]

Awesome. Gotta love it when crime actually pays.

[Kish]

I don't understand what the title is referring to. Is it referring to Belkar? Also, does this mean that everyone knows he was faking being helpful? Because if so, that's kind-of sad, I liked the new Belkar.
They've always known. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Belkar's only fooling himself.

[Shale]

Bahahahaha. Brilliant. Belkar's not doing as well with this "civilization" thing as he may have thought...

[Gez]

This page's title is the best part. :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Belkar needs to work on his bluff rolls if he doesn't want to give the game away, generally a good tip would be to not shout about how your lies are working to the one you are lying.

:belkar: Bluff rolls? You're right, I should be making those! This social interaction thing is hard.

[Ridureyu]

Hey, I always get presents for killing the right people, too!





...So, what do you think? Will Belkar's speech at the end spark a "Was ROy Morally Justified in Killing the Slavers" thread? Because hey, he committed murder, and he said that he wished he could have killed more people. Shouldn't he have just put them under citizen's arrest andbrought them to justice?

[LuisDantas]

Love the title. Which, btw, hints that the Order itself likes Belkar a _lot_ less than the readers do.

Belkar's argument seems to be a sort of meta-comentary by the writer about how in the wrong V was when he killed Kubota.

[LtKillroy]

Belkar finally finds out he can be just as insane as long as its to the right people. Made me laugh.

[Elfey]

There's an issue being lawful in a desert wasteland. Roy is now more Road Warrior out here than an adventurer who can work with the law and good works. But it's not like Lawful good has problems killing here in such an RPG world.

[Silverraptor]

I don't think that's how it's supposed to work Belkar.:smallamused:

[Elan's Modron]

-Great title, as others have said
-Great new gift for Roy
-Great all-around Belkarness
-Great details of the Oasis filling station
-Great continued use by the Giant of 'people (in the Playground) of color,' without it being any big deal, it's just reality
-Exciting new Chekhov's gun potential with Belkar's new present

oh and-
-It definitely looks like Durkon is working up to more screentime in this story-arc, don't it? He seems to have more personal agency than he has in a long time...

Personally, I'm hoping Hilgya (-as Queen of West Despotania! :smallwink:) pops back up. As a servant of Loki, she's quite well set to resist the heat on this hot, deserty continent.

Just sayin'.

[Oshirokita]

Mwa ha ahem ha ha ha!
Oh that was good stuff. Best humour in a long time. Loved Belkar's "pretending" gaffe.
Also, looking forward to Roy trying on his belt. Maybe Elan will get jealous...?

[Porthos]

I love the title.

++
:thumbsup:
QFT.

Et etc. :smallwink:

[Freelance Henchman]

PCs just want to have magic items! :smallcool:

[bluewind95]

That was actually pretty funny. I do wonder what's inside that gift.

The title was awesome, too.

[Draxonicar]

Hehe...belkar can't even grasp the concept of a gift "it's either a trap or tribute"...great gas station too

[Porthos]

The name of the gas water station reminds me of something, but I can't quite place it. It seems very similar to a real gas station logo, but I'm coming uop empty when I try to remember it.

The closest thing I can come up with is the logo for Mobile (http://www.gsamedia.com/images/gsa_stationlogos.jpg), but I'm not sure if that's it or not.

Any suggestions?

ALSO:
ATTN RICH: A couple of the quote marks in Roy's speech ballon in the second panel are fuzzed out. Probably due to compression or sumthin'.

Just wanted to point it out so you could correct it if you wanted to. :smallsmile:

[hajo]

I wonder if the camels will run faster on 'supreme' water :smallamused:

[Ted The Bug]

First comic in a while I really thought was good. A little of the dialogue was kinda awkward, but it's still a throwback to the OotS I love!
Looks like the Giant's getting back into writing humour after the V arc.
Roy's belt kinda doesn't work for me, but meh.

[AutomatedTeller]

I just the love idea of people using a belt of Giant Strength to load camels. We'll find someone using a sword of sharpness to chop wood or something.

[Frog Dragon]

Camel fuel station.:smallbiggrin: Hilarious.

[Jagos]

Belkar needs to work on his bluff rolls if he doesn't want to give the game away, generally a good tip would be to not shout about how your lies are working to the one you are lying.

Him and what wisdom score?

;)

Seriously, great that he's never had a gift before. Now to see what goes down now.

[hamishspence]

...So, what do you think? Will Belkar's speech at the end spark a "Was ROy Morally Justified in Killing the Slavers" thread? Because hey, he committed murder, and he said that he wished he could have killed more people. Shouldn't he have just put them under citizen's arrest andbrought them to justice?


I hope this is not serious- it doesn't seem to be.

And I doubt- very much- that it will spark another thread (I hope not, anyway.)

[Kaytara]

Let people say what they will about Belkar having supposedly lost his comedic edge. The penultimate panel cracks me up. XD

EDIT: Also, the penultimate panel - what with Belkar's pose, his short stature and his laugh - reminds me hilariously of Toph as the Melonlord.

Roy's new belt looks messy on his design, though. I think I'd much prefer it if it were just a green streak without having a black outline of its own.

I'm liking how Durkon now shows a bit more personality in the comic. :) It's really starting to show that he has a bone to pick with Belkar, rather than just silently marching on and supporting Roy's decision as always.

Also, Roy totally has it too easy. I mean, a belt that actually MATCHES his name and his sword? The belt totally should have been, like, lime green. XD

[Porthos]

I hope this is not serious- it doesn't seem to be.

Look at Ridureyu's sig. :smalltongue:

====

Personally I want to know if Roy was morally justified when he accepted the gift from the carava-

OWWWWWW!!!

OK, OK. I guess that joke is kinda played out now. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

thats why I used "it doesn't seem to be"

It can be hard to tell at times, and he doesn't always make non-serious comments.

And yes- the joke is pretty played out :smallamused:

[Hann]

That would be a great place for a merchant to set up shop.

He could call it the Oasis Market.

[TehSheen]

That Camel Water station is a work of genius. I also like the new belt that Roy gets, that should have a good advantage.

[Travania]

huh?:smalleek:

[tribble]

I am expecting some ludicrous gibs the next time Roy gets in a fight.

[The_Weirdo]

So... "Belkar Explains Militaries"? :smalltongue:

[Ridureyu]

thats why I used "it doesn't seem to be"

It can be hard to tell at times, and he doesn't always make non-serious comments.

And yes- the joke is pretty played out :smallamused:


I'm horrified. People actually pay attention to some of my posts. But yeah, it is odd how that's the kind of thing that would spark controversy:-P


In other news, I'm banking on Roy's belt being a Belt of Giant Gender-Changing! We can't let that joke die, can we?

[Bibliomancer]

In other news, I'm banking on Roy's belt being a Belt of Giant Gender-Changing! We can't let that joke die, can we?

Yes we can. Besides, another, more established recurring gag has already died: the kobold head into a bowl gag. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)

I liked the detail of a water station with very high prices in the middle of the desert, and Roy getting a strength boosting item is long overdue.

[derfenrirwolv]

Mobile has the second letter a different color than the others, but the names don't sound alike and the colors don't match

http://www.gassigns.org/gashigh.htm

[Ridureyu]

Yes we can. Besides, another, more established recurring gag has already died: the kobold head into a bowl gag. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)

I liked the detail of a water station with very high prices in the middle of the desert, and Roy getting a strength boosting item is long overdue.

I'm getting $2.15 per gallon where I live. I moved from a $2.45 place.

[Gamerlord]

Belkar has finally gotten a gift from santa :smalltongue:

[The_Weirdo]

Yes we can.

http://www2.tau.ac.il/InternetFiles/news/UserFiles/image/%D7%A6%D7%97/obama-yes-we-can.jpg

[Gamerlord]

http://www2.tau.ac.il/InternetFiles/news/UserFiles/image/%D7%A6%D7%97/obama-yes-we-can.jpg

POLITICS NO TOUCHY!

[The_Weirdo]

POLITICS NO TOUCHY!

This time it wasn't intended as support or derision, just a joke.

BTW, I wonder if we could make a poster of Roy like that...

[Berserk Monk]

I love the comic title in reference to the last panel.:smallbiggrin: Good work sir. Good work.

[Porthos]

BTW, I wonder if we could make a poster of Roy like that...

Treading on dangerous waters here, but....

There are "Obamaizer" websites out there that will take any supplied picture and, well, "Obamaize it". I.e., it will turn the picture into the style of that iconic poster. One can even supply a slogan at the bottom if one wants.

Ain't gonna link to a website (to try to stay on this side of the board rules :smallwink:), but I am quite sure you could Google an "Obamaize" or "Obama Icon" website if one wanted to. :smallsmile:

Besides, if we can have Redcloak as Ché (http://logo.cafepress.com/7/1221917.6255377.jpg)....

No. Best to stop there, I think. :smalltongue:

[Witrana]

Belkar's popular. :smallfrown: Really.

[Hallavast]

Holy Camel! Those pump prices better be in coppers. :smallmad:

:smalltongue:

[Lupy]

Poor Belkar doesn't get it. :smallbiggrin:

[Xorbon]

Ha ha!

Great punchline! :smallbiggrin:

Also, I would like to have a gas-powered camel.

[John Cribati]

I don't understand what the title is referring to. Is it referring to Belkar? Also, does this mean that everyone knows he was faking being helpful? Because if so, that's kind-of sad, I liked the new Belkar.
Although it's probably been ninja'd...
The title refers to Belkar's wish to kill the least popular person.

[DracoDei]

I wonder if the camels will run faster on 'supreme' water :smallamused:
Not directly I should think based on my rationalization of how it works... they might be slightly happier, or less likely to get sick though:
Lowest - Straight out of the ground.
Midgrade - Filtered through several layers of cloth to get the sand and such out...
High grade - As above then Purify Water cast.

[Zevox]

Love the title. Which, btw, hints that the Order itself likes Belkar a _lot_ less than the readers do.
Well, of course. They have to actually put up with and be around him. No sane person would want that. We readers just get to sit back, watch, and enjoy his exploits from the safe distance of the metaphoric barrier between reality and fiction.

Anyway, good comic. Loved the gas station joke and all the Belkar jokes, plus the title. Funniest comic in a fair while from my perspective.

Zevox

[Da Pwnzlord]

Oh Belkar....:smalltongue:


Reminds me of a character I had once. He was a mindflayer with near-complete amnesia, and joined the other two PCs, both paladins. Thus, my mindflayer decided that all you had to be to be right was

A.) Not get caught.

B.) Have a bigger stick.


He soon got arrested for trying to make zombies in someone's basement and got put in a mental institution. :smallbiggrin:

[Shmigor]

Oh, that was beautiful... I spent like 15 seconds reading just the Camel station sign. Heh.

[The_Weirdo]

He soon got arrested for trying to make zombies in someone's basement and got put in a mental institution. :smallbiggrin:

Which is essentially a gourmet exotic food restaurant for a mind flayer...

[Mr. Pin]

Belkar Bitterleaf.

'Nuff said.

[maxon]

oooo - green stripey art upgrade for Roy. I wonder if it's a +4 upgrade or a +6 upgrade.

Trying, dammit, Trying (tee hee).

So, what's in the box?

[X2]

Eh... it's still good, but not up to the high quality standard you've recently been setting.

6/10

[Elfin]

Nice to see Roy getting a costume change.
And Belkar is just getting better and better. :smallbiggrin:

[AxeD]

HAHAHA!! Best comic ever! Belkar's antics brought a smile to my face! It's still there!

Favourite quotes:

:belkar:"Yeah, but i'm pretending not to be. Trying! Trying not to be."

:belkar:"Hey, who's the least popular person here? Turns out it's OK for me to kill them if everyone agrees on it!"

Then I saw the title: "Actually, that's probably you".

HAHAHAHA!!

10/10 Giant!

[Larocs Macalar]

You know, the linear guild didn't appear yet, so i think it could be a trap or something like that...
Nice comic, finally :belkar: recieved a gift!!!!:smalltongue:

[Forealms]

It's good to see Roy finally got his major art upgrade :smallwink:

[Omergideon]

I'm gonna start my mini review with a simple statement first. Belkar was really funny. As I have said I find new Belkar much funnier than old Belkar, so I enjoyed this strip more than if (say) it had occured earlier in the comic. That is to say the context of Belkar's "attempted changes" makes it funnier, I think, than if he was not trying to. It's the same Joke (Belkar is evil) but the new packaging makes it somehow fresher. If not for that I would consider this a weaker strip. However in this place and time it is all well.

So on to the review. As always feel free to disagree.

Good:
1) Beginning with the always stunning artwork, it is amazing how much expression can be achieved with such simple images. However of real note are the greenery around the oasis pumps, Roy's new belt (I find it compliments his armour and livens it up in a great way), and the camel. It looks like a camel. All in all the usual high standard is being maintained.
2) The plot of the strip. It adds a nice aftermath Coda to the slaver scene and with the new gifts (and hints of potential future run ins in panel 1) means the mini arc was not only enjoyable but plot relevant. For me, whilst gag a day/week is allright the comic is at it's best when following a real storyline.
3) The jokes. They were mostly spot on IMO. The use of a powerful magical item for mundane tasks was a hilarious little note, Roy's final comment was a great punchline for him (straight man for the win one might say) and overall Belkar was quite funny. As I have said I found myself getting tired of the Belkar=evil jokes quite fast, but this new spin taken form his character growth in Greysky city adds enough of a fresh spin on them to make them funny again. My only potential doubt is that they will begin to get old really soon.
4) As for continuity issues, yes the old man is indeed the one Belkar saved. It is a small note but one that helps overall.
5) The character interactions were all wonderfully played this strip. Roy showed a great mix of practicallity as a counterpoint to his heroism of last time. Belkar's honest and complete confusion over the idea of a gift shows us just how shallow his idea of good is. And Durkon exhibited.....character growth:smallbiggrin:. He appears to have taken up the main role of "guardian and controller of Belkar" at least in some ways. His use of punishment and reward as team healer gives him a power to enforce the rules of conduct and to in small ways teach Belkar. I hope this role continues as it adds to Durkon's character and allows for a number of possible interactions, especially as new V is unlikey to do so.
6) Nobody even bats an eyelid at Belkar letting his ruse slip in the strip. We allready knew that Haley and Roy knew it was a hoax, but this confirms or at least hints that Durkon knows as well. All in all this bodes well for the future, and grants the team an underlying dynamic that can be used at any time.
7) The philosophy. From past strips such as 669 we know that the giant can do philosophy in the comic. But the way it seems to be slipped in here, allowing us to raise the questions about Belkar's actions without giving a set answer, is both unobtrusive (unlike 669) and interesting. Especially by having Belkar raise the issue we can look at it from many perspectives. All in all a good choice.

The Bad:
1) Whilst the Belkar=evil joke with the gift was funny, his slip up itself was almost......expected. I could predict the joke was coming, which to me is a great weakness in comedy. I note that for me remembering a classic joke and rereadinh/hearing it is not the same thing. By contrast the shouted laugh just seemed to Over the top for me to find especially amusing.
2) Again with the fuel price gag, I find it does not stand up to multiple retellings as well as the other jokes of the strip. But these 2 points are only minor quibbles in a truly splendid strip.

So my final score is 4.5 stars. This is everything the order of the strip should be. Not the greatest of all (and thus a 5 star comic) but one of the best.

If anyone is interested only 3 potential 5 star strips immediately come to mind for me. They are 352 (Durkon's weather control, especially with the start of 353 to cap it off.) for the epic spell, 449 (the ghost martyrs of the sapphire guard) for everything and 659 (flight of the phylactery) for the best single gag in the comic ever. The previous few strips from the arc come close (4.5 easily) but this one just has that extra something to put is over the edge. Of these 449 is my favourite by the way.

[Sijo]

Usually, Belkar's presence in an OOTS strip means I won't fully like it. This time... well, let's just say I didn't hate him as much.

For one thing, I'm glad it has been *confirmed* that the others (except Elan, possibly) know that Belkar is just faking being good. I was worried for a while there after he "saved" the old man. And if we're going to have "evil character in the party" jokes, I'd prefer them to be about how dumb Evil is rather than how cool killing characters is.

On more interesting facts, Roy now has a Belt of Giant Strength! Whoo! About time he got something *useful!* (Not that the Bag of Tricks wasn't fun, mind you. ;) ) Can't wait to see him kick ass with it!

[Calmness]

Heh. And here I thought Belkar was actually getting smarter. Had me fooled, Giant. :smallamused:

[Lysander]

Is there any better feeling in Dnd than getting a really good magic item? I think this is an illustration of the DM rule that if your player pulls off a really badass stunt they deserve an equally badass reward.

[Katana_Geldar]

There is a better feeling, Lysander, and that's rolling a Natural 20.

Love that hat.

And we still have to hear from Mr Dirtfarmer from the previous strip.

[Gullara]

And Roy gets a costume update!

Yay! I never even thought of that.

[madtinker]

Here's hoping Belkar gets some sweet new dagger-with an evil bane on it! I could see something ironic like that.

And as far as being least popular...everyone hates Belkar, (except for Mr. Scruffy, I think), but Belkar hates Durkon (again, I think - maybe someone else more, don't know). But it could be argued that the guy that is hated by the guy that is hated by everyone is actually the least popular.

[Puns de León]

He may have gotten a Belt of Giant Strength, but Roy sure took his sweet time. This is compensation from the combined efforts of the D&D and Comedy Gods for the unexpected and disappointing discovery in strip #9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html).

[ThePhantasm]

Belkar is HILARIOUS yet again. I laughed at his ridiculous laughter, and the slaver's reaction. Great comic!

[Sewblon]

Belkar seems to still be getting used to cheating at society, but it is going as well as anyone could have expected.

[Blaznak]

Belkar never gets old...

[Selene]

There you go, Belkar. Now you're getting it.

[Kish]

Here's hoping Belkar gets some sweet new dagger-with an evil bane on it! I could see something ironic like that.

And as far as being least popular...everyone hates Belkar, (except for Mr. Scruffy, I think), but Belkar hates Durkon (again, I think - maybe someone else more, don't know). But it could be argued that the guy that is hated by the guy that is hated by everyone is actually the least popular.
:smallconfused: That doesn't make any sense. Being hated by everyone doesn't make you an arbiter of popularity!

[Sewblon]

:smallconfused: That doesn't make any sense. Being hated by everyone doesn't make you an arbiter of popularity! True, but Roy is the least popular person on the team, because Mr.Scruffy likes Belkar, but no one actually likes their boss, and he is in a relationship with the parties least popular ally(Celia) which must lose him some points.

[Shale]

And then you remember that the party worked their asses off to revive Roy, whereas when Belkar dies the plan, argued against by exactly no one, is to let him rot.

Who's more popular?

[Cracklord]

Why won't you die? WHY WON'T YOU DIE?

Incidentally, you stupid scene stealer, that would, as the giant most eloquently said, be you. So slit your wrists and do the world a favor.

[Sewblon]

And then you remember that the party worked their asses off to revive Roy, whereas when Belkar dies the plan, argued against by exactly no one, is to let him rot.

Who's more popular? The party needed Roy alive since he proved himself to be the best leader among them. Belkar's death was foretold in prophecy, and the laws of mythology state that any attempt to avert a prophecy will fulfill it, apparently no one wants Belkar's death on their hands.

[Porthos]

True, but one could argue that Roy is actually the least popular person on the team, because Mr.Scruffy likes Belkar, but no one actually likes their boss.

The reactions of Elan (views him as a Big Brother), Durkon (greatly appreciates the fact that Roy took time out to befriend him), Vaarsuvius (respects his intellect like no other in the group), and Haley (Hey.. who doesn't love meat shields? she appreciates his Deadpan Snarkitutide) toward Roy would seem to contradict your statement. :smallamused:

[brionl]

Next level Belkar needs to put some more points into Craft(fake sincerity).

As Johnny Bravo says, "Sincerity. If you can fake that, you've got it made!"

[Sewblon]

The reactions of Elan (views him as a Big Brother), Durkon (greatly appreciates the fact that Roy took time out to befriend him), Vaarsuvius (respects his intellect like no other in the group), and Haley (Hey.. who doesn't love meat shields? she appreciates his Deadpan Snarkitutide) toward Roy would seem to contradict your statement. :smallamused: Elan is a bard, he is doing what he can to stay close to Roy to gather material for songs and stories. Durkon is a Dwarf, so he is treating Roy the way Roy treated him because that is the lawful and honorable thing to do. Vaarsuvius needs a tank and threatened Roy by pointing out that the remains of a disintegrated dragon appear very similar to the remains of a disintegrated human, "respecting" someone is not the same as "liking" someone. When Haley met Roy she saw him as a source of income, which I am not sure has changed.
Next level Belkar needs to put some more points into Craft(fake sincerity).

As Johnny Bravo says, "Sincerity. If you can fake that, you've got it made!" The character who said that was beaten up immediately after saying it.

[Tyndmyr]

Very nice comic. :smallsmile:

I love how nobody is surprised when Belkar let it slip that his "goodness" is an act. :smallbiggrin:

This, very fitting. Everyone in the party *should* be skeptical as hell of Belkar.

I'm hoping we have a wisdom booster for Belkar. Given the recent "attempts" at being good, and previous experiences with Owl's Wisdom, it'd be interesting to see what the result would be.

[Porthos]

Elan is a bard, so he could just be doing what he can to stay close to Roy to gather material for songs and stories. Durkon is a Dwarf, so he could simply be treating Roy the way Roy treated him because that is the lawful and honorable thing to do. Vaarsuvius needs a tank and threatened Roy by pointing out that the remains of a disintegrated dragon appear very similar to the remains of a disintegrated human, "respecting" someone is not the same as "liking" someone. When Haley met Roy she saw him as a source of income, which I am not sure has changed.

Pro Tip:

Just because one uses the word "could" in a debate, it doesn't actually mean that the arguments that follow it are sound ones. :smalltongue:

[Sewblon]

Pro Tip:

Just because one uses the word "could" in a debate, it doesn't actually mean that the arguments that follow it are sound ones. :smalltongue: But can you disprove my arguments in this case?

[spargel]

But can you disprove my arguments in this case?

It's your job to present evidence to be disproved first.

[Porthos]

But can you disprove my arguments in this case?

Oh, you're being serious? Sorry, I thought you were just larking about. :smallsmile:

Elan's view of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html)
More Elan's view of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)
Durkon's View of Roy can be seen in Origins where he states that he's the only human he ever met (at the time at least) who gave a damn about honor, and that he likes him for that.
The playful banter between Haley and Roy is unmistakable here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
As was her Gut Reaction in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) (where it is pointed out that Roy is Durkon's best friend)
V, again in Origins, actually complements Roy. And how many times have we ever seen V compliment someone? Moreover, he uses "Sir Greenhilt" (too many times to link) as an obvious way of showing respect.

And this is just a short sampling of the teams attitude toward Roy. More can be provided if one wishes. :smallwink:

[Jackson]

His original claim was that nobody likes their boss, therefore nobody likes Roy. Since the former is patently untrue, deriving the latter from it is, at best, logically unsound.

That said, I think there's so much evidence in the comic that the members of the team actually like Roy that it would be harder to come up with examples of the members of the Order all specifically and permanently demonstrating their dislike of Roy. In general the person making the claim has to support it with fact rather than pure conjecture.

[HOLEkevin]

I wonder what the present was.

[Aerysil]

I wonder what's in-

never mind...

[whitelaughter]

4 pages of comments, and no one has suggested explaining how unpopular lawyers are to Belkar?


Great comic; especially loved the first panel.

[Lioness]

I really want to know what's in the box.

I hope it's something fun...perhaps an explosion. Or maybe just an incredibly useless item.

Speculations?

[Kaytara]

Elan is a bard, so he could just be doing what he can to stay close to Roy to gather material for songs and stories. Durkon is a Dwarf, so he could simply be treating Roy the way Roy treated him because that is the lawful and honorable thing to do. Vaarsuvius needs a tank and threatened Roy by pointing out that the remains of a disintegrated dragon appear very similar to the remains of a disintegrated human, "respecting" someone is not the same as "liking" someone. When Haley met Roy she saw him as a source of income, which I am not sure has changed. The character who said that was beaten up immediately after saying it.

Are you... are you seriously arguing that none of the Order are actually attached to Roy for non-selfish reasons?

I kind of think Haley's and Elan's crocodile tears after his death contradict you, at the very least.


I really want to know what's in the box.

I hope it's something fun...perhaps an explosion. Or maybe just an incredibly useless item.

Speculations?

The old man's wife is V's long lost twin sister and the box contains Explosive Runes.

[Adeptus]

It's working! :belkar:

[Adumbration]

Aah, yes, the infamous villain monologue AND the evil laugh. It doesn't look very good indeed for Mr. Bitterleaf.

[Zanaril]

The old man's wife is V's long lost twin sister and the box contains Explosive Runes.
Identical or fraternal twin?

[Kaytara]

Identical or fraternal twin?

I was thinking fraternal. :D

[CoffeeIncluded]

We can't tell until we see the ears!

[Fitzclowningham]

The belt just about exactly makes up for Roy's level disparity with the rest of the party. Also, it elevates him further into the realm of seriously badassedness, with an attack bonus of somewhere north of 25.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Odd, I usually find Belkar to be amusing, in a repellent kind of way. In this strip, he's just repellent -- I guess it lacks his usual cynical half-humorous viciousness, and he's too serious in his stupidity to be funny. Or something.

[Lvl45DM!]

yeah the belkar joke fell flat for me usually cos i like it when belkster is being intelligently evil
goading miko? awesome
duelling V? awesome
taking out yikyik? awesome
teach a man to solve his problems with violence? awesome

stupid belkar bores me
light a tent on fire? boring
hmm cant think of another right now...but i will

[the_tick_rules]

Belakar's taking it one step at a time.

[Wolf_Plague]

:roy:"Now, Belkar, you will witness the power of the Light Side!"

[Force Gift!]

[mec]

Indeed, Belkar spent all day in the desert experiencing "the power of the Light Side". He got sun-burned.

And what did Durkon use to heal him? Cure light wounds!

[derfenrirwolv]

. Belkar's death was foretold in prophecy, and the laws of mythology state that any attempt to avert a prophecy will fulfill it, apparently no one wants Belkar's death on their hands.

Wouldn't that imply that any attempt to fulfill the prophecy will avert it? (usually by having it come true in such an unexpected way that its meaning was averted)

[The_Weirdo]

Belkar never gets old...

Of course he won't. The Oracle himself said he'll die before he gets old... :smallwink:

[Ichneumon]

Belkar gets more and more development, this could be the character closure we need before the end. The end is nigh.

[Sewblon]

Wouldn't that imply that any attempt to fulfill the prophecy will avert it? (usually by having it come true in such an unexpected way that its meaning was averted) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfFulfillingProphecy Sometimes that happens, but it depends on the story.
Are you... are you seriously arguing that none of the Order are actually attached to Roy for non-selfish reasons?

I kind of think Haley's and Elan's crocodile tears after his death contradict you, at the very least.





Maybe they were just crying because they realized that they couldn't win the battle.

[Sewblon]

Sorry, accidental double post.

[JonestheSpy]

Brilliant comic. It's just as much a commentary on the way society views killings as it is about Belkar. :smalltongue:

(Or is that reading a bit too much into it?)

No, I don't think that's reading too much into it. Dovetails interestingly with Celia's views on violence as well.

[Sewblon]

Oh, you're being serious? Sorry, I thought you were just larking about. :smallsmile:

Elan's view of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html)
More Elan's view of Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)
Durkon's View of Roy can be seen in Origins where he states that he's the only human he ever met (at the time at least) who gave a damn about honor, and that he likes him for that.
The playful banter between Haley and Roy is unmistakable here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
As was her Gut Reaction in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) (where it is pointed out that Roy is Durkon's best friend)
V, again in Origins, actually complements Roy. And how many times have we ever seen V compliment someone? Moreover, he uses "Sir Greenhilt" (too many times to link) as an obvious way of showing respect.

And this is just a short sampling of the teams attitude toward Roy. More can be provided if one wishes. :smallwink:

You were right the first time, I have been deliberately arguing and unsound position in an attempt to elicit a reaction from others. But mission accomplished, so thanks Porthos, it was more fun than I thought it would be.

[Lioness]

The old man's wife is V's long lost twin sister and the box contains Explosive Runes.

That crossed my mind too.

[Sijo]

You were right the first time, I have been deliberately arguing and unsound position in an attempt to elicit a reaction from others. But mission accomplished, so thanks Porthos, it was more fun than I thought it would be.

That can be interpreted as "trolling".

[Milandros]

You were right the first time, I have been deliberately arguing and unsound position in an attempt to elicit a reaction from others. But mission accomplished, so thanks Porthos, it was more fun than I thought it would be.

You're openly admitting to trolling?

I'll assume any other post you make in the future is the same and ignore you from now on - assuming the Giant doesn't wield the almighty ban-hammer on you for openly breaking forum rules and then teasing someone else about how you did.

[Conuly]

That can be interpreted as "trolling".

What "interpreted as", Sijo? That's just about the cleanest definition of trolling I've heard in a long time!

[Lvl45DM!]

wait so we arent allowed to be annoying? thats an internet rule now? no more devils advocacy?

[Random832]

wait so we arent allowed to be annoying? thats an internet rule now? no more devils advocacy?

The question is, is devils advocacy morally justified? :smallbiggrin:

[chef781]

Well,, amongst that, Nice strip, Rich. I really can't complain. I can tell recently that making Elan, um, Elanic, and making Belkar his old self has been difficult. Elan has been growing smarter, and belker's been figuring things out. But I'm exited about DPtP Coming out!

Great job!

[Hurkyl]

no more devils advocacy?
Who's talking about devil's advocacy? :smallconfused: He's a troll because he's posting with the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people. It doesn't matter whether he believes what he's arguing or not.

[Selene]

wait so we arent allowed to be annoying? thats an internet rule now? no more devils advocacy?

No, we aren't allowed to troll. That's a forum rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=22&a=1). (scroll about halfway down the page under "Major Infractions")

[Draz74]

Great strip -- my favorite in quite a while.

Plot advancement (magic items), various humorous jabs between the characters, a great punch line (the title!), setting details (oasis), character development (Belkar ... though in the wrong direction!), but focusing on plural main characters (Roy, Durkon, and Belkar). Very well-rounded in general.

[Lkctgo]

For just a split second, one teensy second before I read the comic finish, I was so sure Belkar would actually feel his heart warmed by the gift. Silly me, this is the SHOELESS GOD OF WAR here. He won't ever feel actually pleasure at a gift from some scummy peasant.

[Conuly]

wait so we arent allowed to be annoying? thats an internet rule now? no more devils advocacy?

Well, you can be accidentally annoying. And I suppose you can even be deliberately annoying if nobody catches you at it. But being deliberately annoying for the sake of being annoying (aka "trolling") and then ADMITTING it is going a bit far, don't you think?

[Random832]

But being deliberately annoying for the sake of being annoying (aka "trolling") and then ADMITTING it is going a bit far, don't you think?

Yeah, but that's vastly overstating what he's actually admitted to.

Or I guess Socrates was a troll.

[nybbler]

Or I guess Socrates was a troll.

Perhaps the first. There's a reason they made him drink poison.

[chef781]

Wow. I'm surprised none noticed I gave the initials of a book that hasn't yet come out. DPtP. That's cause the guys at ookoodook named the teaser pic DPtP_teaser.gif.

Heh. I'm a gen-ee-oos.

[Kish]

Wow. I'm surprised none noticed I gave the initials of a book that hasn't yet come out. DPtP. That's cause the guys at ookoodook named the teaser pic DPtP_teaser.gif.

Heh. I'm a gen-ee-oos.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7154797#post7154797

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Okay folks, please cut the chatter about who is or isn't a troll. In fact, while trolling is against the Forum Rules, so is calling someone a troll.

[Lvl45DM!]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html what about those trolls?

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html what about those trolls?
Clearly, it is against the forum rules for them to post here, or for anyone to address them if they do.

[Whiteside]

Someone earlier on mentioned that Belkar would throw away his gift, because it's not as good as his current equipment, or he doesn't like it. (there's a spoiler here)
Whiteside can see this coming as well.

P.S. He would use spoiler tags, but he can't figure out how to do them. :smallannoyed:

P.P.S. And he thought he should use them because the original poster did.

[Kish]

P.S. He would use spoiler tags, but he can't figure out how to do them. :smallannoyed:

(spoiler) (/spoiler) Replace the ()parentheses with []brackets.

[Doug Lampert]

Perhaps the first. There's a reason they made him drink poison.
Note that the jury vote to CONVICT by 280 to 220, 30 fewer votes out of 500 and he gets off with nothing (180 fewer votes and they fine the people who brought the charges the cost of the trial).

Both sides then proposed a punishment, the prosecution proposed death, the defense proposed a small fine. Both made arguments in favor of their proposed punishment. The vote to KILL Socrates was 360 to 140. Same jury mind you. 80 more votes to kill than there had been to convict.

To stay alive he needed only keep the votes of those who thought he was innocent and to come up with a punishment that slightly over 10% of those voting to convict considered more reasonable than killing him.

Instead he made a speech that managed to convince well over a third of the 220 who had thought he was actually innocent of the crime that (a) he actually was guilty and (b) that he deserved to be executed.

Both surviving accounts of the trial are from his supporters and likely biased. They didn't bother to record anything significant about the prosecutions case for instance, but reading them I have no trouble thinking that it wasn't unreasonable to switch from not guilty to "kill the bastard" by the end of the penalty phase. And at least 80 people did.

That's winning friends and influencing people!

[Tobimaro]

Those service station prices are going through the roof. :smallbiggrin:

And Belkar, you really are trying! Seriously! :smallwink:

[Smile_Time]

Very nice comic. :smallsmile:

I love how nobody is surprised when Belkar let it slip that his "goodness" is an act. :smallbiggrin:

Evidently, it seems they've learned not to look a 'gift' (pardon the awful pun) horse in the mouth?

[Hurkyl]

Evidently, it seems they've learned not to look a 'gift' (pardon the awful pun) horse in the mouth?
It's a curious state of affairs when (partially) reverting an idiom back to its literal meaning constitutes a pun!

[Zienth]

I think Belkar's gift is...

Some sort of food. The guy said his wife sent him to give it to Belkar. So it's something a woman in a trading caravan would be offering. Probably not a magic weapon or similar item. Some date cake sounds about right. Maybe some magic date cake.

[Viera Champion]

I think Belkar will get... a ring.

[Random832]

I think Belkar's gift is...

Some sort of food. The guy said his wife sent him to give it to Belkar. So it's something a woman in a trading caravan would be offering. Probably not a magic weapon or similar item. Some date cake sounds about right. Maybe some magic date cake.


Wait, so the man can have a belt of giant strength but the woman can't have a similarly-overpowered magic item?

[factotum]

I think Belkar will get... a ring.

And I think he will get...a shrubbery! :smallsmile:

[fractal]

Wait, so the man can have a belt of giant strength but the woman can't have a similarly-overpowered magic item?
Are you... are you calling Belkar a woman??

[Random832]

Are you... are you calling Belkar a woman??

No... The point was Zienth was saying that since Belkar's gift is from a woman it can't be a powerful magic item (implicitly, that a powerful magic item will not have been in her possession prior to being given away as a gift, hence "have" in my post)

[Terminalchaos]

I think the funniest gift Belkar could receive would be something that causes alignment reversal.

No one would believe the change was genuine. It would make him a bit scarier to his comrades even as he became a boon to the civilians for once.

[Vreejack]

There are 011 types of people in this world. People who understand binary, people who don't, and people who tend to read it backwards.

Backwards it's six. I'm not getting that.

[moxproxy]

So... does anyone think the title of this strip is foreshadowing how Belkar will die? Suicide, perhaps? :P

[Asis]

So... does anyone think the title of this strip is foreshadowing how Belkar will die? Suicide, perhaps? :P
Nah. My money's on V and his/her explosive runes.

[sabbatica]

So... does anyone think the title of this strip is foreshadowing how Belkar will die? Suicide, perhaps? :P

That's just the kind of thing a Belkar player would do if he didn't want to play Belkar anymore, say, if he figured out a new way to Min/Max. The new character would of course have the exact same personality as Belkar and be named "Belkar the Second", who conveniently shows up immediately, having heared about Belkar's death.

Though if V. does get Belkar with Exploding Runes, we might expect a short player fued when Belkar the Second dies avenging Belkar's death, then his brother Rakleb Bitterleaf, etc. We could also see a flurry of new characters popping in and killing themselves if Belkar's player sucks at rolling stats for new characters. ^_^ Haley's player could trick the DM into giving Belkar's characters a few magical items and when Belkar's player kills his flawed characters, Haley pickpockets the items.

As for Belkar's gift, I notice Roy was nearby and encouraging Belkar to take the gift, not long after chatting with Haley about Belkar's attitude being a sham, so maybe Haley and Roy conspired to get Belkar a *special* gift. I think the idea of something alignment-changing is suitable, maybe a dagger with an ego which wrestles for control of Belkar's body. To make it irresistible, you could make it an INVISIBLE dagger. What newbie rogue player would turn down an INVISIBLE dagger? It would be the awesomeness.

Now for Roy. I don't like Roy anymore. Roy's player seems to have fallen into a roleplaying trap I fell into far too often, Roy has been struggling so hard to stay in character and keep people in line that he has forgotten THIS IS A GAME and he's supposed to have fun. He can be a lot more popular and have a lot more fun if he stops being so true to character and takes on a "bumbling leader" role, like he started out doing in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html . Face it Roy, if you truly roleplay a LG character with a high Wisdom in this kind of campaign, you'll get so frustrated you'll turn into Miko and nobody wants that. It's a fact of life that Fighters have more fun when they're dumb. Not all fighters are dumb. ...just the smart ones. Max your Hit Points, ignore your Wisdom, have fun. ;)

[factotum]

That's just the kind of thing a Belkar player would do if he didn't want to play Belkar anymore, say, if he figured out a new way to Min/Max.

There is no "Belkar player", and as for min/maxing, none of the Order are exactly optimised...

[Nimrod's Son]

Now for Roy. I don't like Roy anymore. Roy's player seems to have fallen into a roleplaying trap I fell into far too often, Roy has been struggling so hard to stay in character and keep people in line that he has forgotten THIS IS A GAME and he's supposed to have fun. He can be a lot more popular and have a lot more fun if he stops being so true to character and takes on a "bumbling leader" role, like he started out doing in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html . Face it Roy, if you truly roleplay a LG character with a high Wisdom in this kind of campaign, you'll get so frustrated you'll turn into Miko and nobody wants that. It's a fact of life that Fighters have more fun when they're dumb. Not all fighters are dumb. ...just the smart ones. Max your Hit Points, ignore your Wisdom, have fun. ;)
You seem to be under the impression that the Order are just playing a game instead of literally trying to save the world. This is not the case. If they don't take their quest seriously, the world could potentially cease to exist. Faced with responsibility of that magnitude, I'd prefer a leader who didn't ignore his wisdom in the name of fun and popularity.

Oh, and if any of them dies, they don't just get to decide to roll up another character. They're actually dead. Why do you think Roy spent the best part of a year watching from the sidelines? Because he fancied a break?

[Aeliene]

{Scrubbed - The Posting Schedule is an Inappropriate Topic here.}

[sabbatica]

You seem to be under the impression that the Order are just playing a game instead of literally trying to save the world.

Oh, and if any of them dies, they don't just get to decide to roll up another character. They're actually dead. Why do you think Roy spent the best part of a year watching from the sidelines? Because he fancied a break?

1) You're taking the game too seriously, it's a game, laugh, have fun. :) A very good way of having fun is reading OotS again, starting specifically with OotS #1, which very strongly implies this is all taking place within a certain game by a certain company which shall not be named lest two certain magical knights from a certain spooky wizard show up with a spooky cease and desist order.

2) Roy's player was attached to his character and wanted to continue playing Roy even though the rules say Roy had to be sent to the plane of his alignment, thus splitting the party, which was regrettable, but necessary, since the DM spent alot of time and energy putting together the main plot, which happens to be very Roy-focused.

Belkar and his player are another story. At least two players have already stated they will not resurrect Belkar, thus forcing Belkar's player to make a new character if Belkar dies. By player consensus, the DM would probably not let him play another Evil character ever again, so it would likely be Chaotic Neutral. ...min/maxed of course, with stats that mysteriously increase every game.



Can we go back to the way it was in the past? (long wait, but the comics were awesome)

I'd sacrifice art for frequency. To me, a funny story trumps pretty pictures. I would probably post more sketches in black and white, then finish the art when I got around to it, when approaching the deadline for the books. But the fun story is what we're after, this isn't the Mona Lisa, it's the Order of the Stick and that's why we love it. :)

[Deepkicker]

1) You're taking the game too seriously, it's just a game, have fun. :) A very good way of having fun is reading OotS again, starting specifically with OotS #1, which very strongly implies this is all taking place within a certain game by a certain company which shall not be named lest two certain magical knights from a certain spooky wizard show up with a spooky cease and desist order. We can be fairly certain of this.

2) Roy's player was attached to his character and wanted to continue playing Roy even though the rules say Roy had to be sent to the plane of his alignment, thus splitting the party, which was regrettable, but necessary, since the DM spent alot of time and energy putting together the main plot, which happens to be very Roy-focused.

Belkar and his player are another story. At least two players have already stated they would not resurrect Belkar, thus forcing Belkar's player to make a new character. By consensus, the DM would probably not let him play another evil character ever again, so it would likely be Chaotic Neutral. ...min/maxed of course, with stats that mysteriously increase every game.

OoTS may break the fourth wall a lot and poke fun at the conventions and game its based on (like the early appearance of those lawyers you mentioned). But it's been stated numerous times that these characters don't have players. This is a world built upon D and D rules, it isn't a game being played by actual people. Thinking of it that way totally takes away from the story. Ruins it even.

[Rollory]

Anybody know what the Giant's other project(s) might be?

[Menas]

OoTS may break the fourth wall a lot and poke fun at the conventions and game its based on (like the early appearance of those lawyers you mentioned). But it's been stated numerous times that these characters don't have players. This is a world built upon D and D rules, it isn't a game being played by actual people. Thinking of it that way totally takes away from the story. Ruins it even.

That's an opinion.

Rich is the 'player' for all of OoTS, when it comes down to it. Since it's a D&D themed game, it's not that big of a stretch to think in terms of all the characters having players, since that's how it normally works. In fact, part of the exercise of the strip might actually be for Rich to show people how he'd like to see D&D characters play their characters in general.

At any rate, it doesn't take away from the story for me.

[sabbatica]

it's been stated numerous times that these characters don't have players. This is a world built upon D and D rules, it isn't a game being played by actual people.

I wasn't saying the PCs were played by real players, I'm just saying having characters talking out of character makes no sense unless the player characters have character-player characters. I don't think Rich ever intends to mention the characters playing the player chacters directly, never really seemed like his intent, but I've read every OotS and I don't recall anything in-comic which says the PCs have no CPCs (character-player characters), but I have seen something on nearly every strip that implies they do have CPCs: they're called PCs and PCs need Ps to have player knowledge, which they do, so they must have CPCs. The characters are even called PCs, but if they don't have Ps they're not PCs, they're NPCs. PCs have Ps, ergo, the PCs have CPCs and are thus actually CPCCs with Rich as the CPCCP.

Do the CPCs know they have a CPCCP? We may never know.

[Menas]

I wasn't saying the PCs were played by real players, I'm just saying having characters talking out of character makes no sense unless the player characters have character-player characters. I've read every OotS and I don't recall anything in-comic which says the PCs have no Ps, but I have seen something on nearly every strip that implies they do have CPCs. PCs need Ps to have player knowledge, which the OotS PCs have. The characters are called PCs, but if they don't have Ps they're not PCs, they're NPCs. PCs have Ps, ergo, the PCs have CPCs and are thus actually CPCCs with Rich as the CPCCP.

Total tangent here - this post makes me think of the Mystery Men movie where Captain Amazing and Casanova Frankenstein are talking and Casanova says 'yes, but did you know that I knew that you knew?'.

If you know the movie this might make you laugh too. For those who don't - sorry for the random tangent.

[factotum]

but I've read every OotS and I don't recall anything in-comic which says the PCs have no CPCs

You didn't read this one, then?:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html

Note what Belkar says in the 6th panel before being interrupted by Shojo.

[Nimrod's Son]

1) You're taking the game too seriously, it's a game, laugh, have fun. :) A very good way of having fun is reading OotS again, starting specifically with OotS #1, which very strongly implies this is all taking place within a certain game by a certain company which shall not be named lest two certain magical knights from a certain spooky wizard show up with a spooky cease and desist order.
I've never played a tabletop roleplay game in my life, and I've probably spent no more than ten hours or so total playing video roleplay games. They're not my thing. So no, I'm not taking any game too seriously. I'm having PLENTY of fun though. OotS DOES make me laugh. That's one of the reasons I read it. And it's a little patronising of you to suggest that I read the strip again, "starting specifically with OotS #1", because I've already read the entire story, prequels included, at least ten times. I even know the Dragon Magazine strips inside-out. I think I've got the measure of what OotS is about by know, thanks.

You haven't, however. OotS isn't a story that transcribes a real-life game of D&D, and it isn't a story transcribing a fictional game of D&D either. It's a story set in a fictional world, where the laws of physics are subject to be altered by the laws of D&D.

How you believe "Roy's player" or "Belkar's player" might act in any given situation is irrelevant to this discussion. There aren't any players - only "Roy" and "Belkar" the people. It's not a game - it's a genuine mission to save the world. The author has said as much himself. If you want to disagree with him, fine, but don't expect many people to take you seriously if you do. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Not only do none of the Order have players, real or imagined, but Belkar's not a rogue, either.

[Lvl45DM!]

Well hes pretty rougish
daggers, high stealth skills, being a halfling in the first place, has the nifty hood rocking, sets a trap up for Miko, uses the fog to better advantage than actual rogues, likes treasure...

Ok i know hes not a rogue but im saying he still might think an invisible dagger would be nifty

[Sewblon]

Well hes pretty rougish
daggers, high stealth skills, being a halfling in the first place, has the nifty hood rocking, sets a trap up for Miko, uses the fog to better advantage than actual rogues, likes treasure...

Ok i know hes not a rogue but im saying he still might think an invisible dagger would be nifty He has high stealth skills, but subtlety in general is not his forte, he only uses his stealth skills when he doesn't have a choice.

[lothos]

And I think he will get...a shrubbery! :smallsmile:

Hahaha. But I think he might prefer a holy-hand-grenade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade). Might be more his style ! So long as he doesn't get Elan to do the counting to 3.....

Then he might try and train Mr. Scruffy to become a vorpal kitten :-)
(a variation of a vorpal bunny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorpal_bunny))

[Sewblon]

Hahaha. But I think he might prefer a holy-hand-grenade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade). Might be more his style ! So long as he doesn't get Elan to do the counting to 3.....

Then he might try and train Mr. Scruffy to become a vorpal kitten :-)
(a variation of a vorpal bunny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorpal_bunny)) Giving Belkar anything holy would be a good way to mess with him.

[ericgrau]

Well hes pretty rougish
daggers, high stealth skills, being a halfling in the first place, has the nifty hood rocking, sets a trap up for Miko, uses the fog to better advantage than actual rogues, likes treasure...

Ok i know hes not a rogue but im saying he still might think an invisible dagger would be nifty

That's more ranger-ish.

[Lvl45DM!]

OK you see a halfling wielding two daggers who never tracks anything but sneaks around alot...i thought Belkar was a thief for a while (i started reading halfway) So whilst he is obviously a ranger, im not denying that, the person who stated that a newbie rogue player would love an invisble dagger wasnt too far off in attaching that player to Belkar in a class sense

[Kish]

OK you see a halfling wielding two daggers who never tracks anything but sneaks around alot...i thought Belkar was a thief for a while (i started reading halfway) So whilst he is obviously a ranger, im not denying that, the person who stated that a newbie rogue player would love an invisble dagger wasnt too far off in attaching that player to Belkar in a class sense
Either Belkar is a rogue or he isn't (specifically, he isn't). You can argue that it's an easy mistake to make, but not that it's not a mistake.

[Larocs Macalar]

Just to say ( i think again):
That gift may be a trap for him.

[Menas]

How you believe "Roy's player" or "Belkar's player" might act in any given situation is irrelevant to this discussion.

OoTS is based on the D&D game. All D&D games have players. Since OoTS is associated with D&D, there's no reason people can't discuss elements of D&D that are associated with the comic strip (like people often do). So wondering how an actual player might choose to play their character in certain parts of the strip and whether or not it would fit in with their role is absolutely relevant (if you wish not to partake that's your choice).



There aren't any players - only "Roy" and "Belkar" the people.

Well first off, they're not people they're characters. And by definition Rich is their 'player', since he controls what they do or don't do in the comic strip. He's also the DM.


It's not a game - it's a genuine mission to save the world.].

It's a comic strip story based on D&D about some characters that are trying save a fictional world. I would expect that a genuine mission to save the world would mean real people are trying to thwart a real threat to our real world in real life.



The author has said as much himself.

I haven't seen this in print anywhere. I mean it's obvious Rich isn't running a literal game and he's not recording the results and putting them into his comic strip. He's the author. But being the author also makes him the 'player'.

[Kish]

OoTS is based on the D&D game. All D&D games have players. Since OoTS is associated with D&D, there's no reason people can't discuss elements of D&D that are associated with the comic strip (like people often do). So wondering how an actual player might choose to play their character in certain parts of the strip and whether or not it would fit in with their role is absolutely relevant (if you wish not to partake that's your choice).
Certainly. But basing theorizing about Belkar or Roy's motivations on, "Let's stop acting like Belkar and Roy are actual evil and good characters and try to figure out how their actions are decided by their players, who are the real characters in OotS" is another matter. Rich has stated, both in the comic (Belkar's aforementioned line) and on the boards, that they're characters who exist in a world based on D&D, and that world is where their existence ends. There is no other level, no "Roy's player" who makes metagaming decisions for Roy. As the author, Rich decides Roy's actions; he does not decide Roy's actions based on how he chooses to write Roy's player, because there is no such character as "Roy's player."

[Alaska Fan]

I'm just saying having characters talking out of character makes no sense unless the player characters have character-player characters.

This sentence is so amazing that I have posted it to my blog. When the OOTS story is concluded we should have a go at competitive solipsism and see who wins.

[Shadic]

It's a comic strip story based on D&D about some characters that are trying save a fictional world. I would expect that a genuine mission to save the world would mean real people are trying to thwart a real threat to our real world in real life.
So Lord of the Rings wasn't fiction?

[Herald Alberich]

I wasn't saying the PCs were played by real players, I'm just saying having characters talking out of character makes no sense unless the player characters have character-player characters.

Now who's taking it too seriously? All that means is this is a comedy series that breaks the fourth wall. No need to introduce meta-characters controlling the on-screen heroes.

[Selene]

Well first off, they're not people they're characters. And by definition Rich is their 'player', since he controls what they do or don't do in the comic strip. He's also the DM.

Yeah.... ok.... By that logic they are also actors and Rich is their director. Let's talk about what Roy's actor thinks his character's motivation is.

Note that I have actual in-comic back-up for my pointless analogy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html (The title of which is "It's a Shame She Didn't Grab the Script While She Was There")


I haven't seen this in print anywhere. I mean it's obvious Rich isn't running a literal game and he's not recording the results and putting them into his comic strip. He's the author. But being the author also makes him the 'player'.

I have seen it in print said by Rich, right here on Rich's forum. If I had a link to the post, I'd give it to you. And of course it was also said by Belkar in the previously linked strip.

Rich is also the lighting and special effects guys. And the scriptwriter. And the casting director.

[Nimrod's Son]

OoTS is based on the D&D game. All D&D games have players. Since OoTS is associated with D&D, there's no reason people can't discuss elements of D&D that are associated with the comic strip (like people often do). So wondering how an actual player might choose to play their character in certain parts of the strip and whether or not it would fit in with their role is absolutely relevant (if you wish not to partake that's your choice).
Sure thing, muse away. Except I was replying to Sabbatica, who has been repeatedly posting about what the players have been up to behind the scenes, and amongst other things put forward the idea that when Belkar dies, his "player" will immediately replace him by rolling up a sequel character. This is never going to happen, so I said so and explained why: because there aren't any players. I never said a word about people speculating on how the Order's trials and tribulations could be roleplayed if it were indeed a game. You want to do that, knock yourself out.


Well first off, they're not people they're characters. And by definition Rich is their 'player', since he controls what they do or don't do in the comic strip. He's also the DM.
When I said "people" I was talking IN UNIVERSE. Believe it or not, I DO understand the boundary between fact and fiction, cheers.

If you want to call Rich the "DM" as well as the "players", then that's cool (Although I'd postulate that it isn't much of a game if he's the only one playing) - consider Tolkein to be the "DM" of his world if you like. And all the players too. Hell, call Charles Dickens the "DM" of Oliver Twist. But I prefer the word "author".

What you call him doesn't change anything though. Rich isn't deciding the outcome of this story by dice-rolls. It's not a game.


It's a comic strip story based on D&D about some characters that are trying save a fictional world. I would expect that a genuine mission to save the world would mean real people are trying to thwart a real threat to our real world in real life.
Sheesh. Again, I was talking "in universe" so my post didn't get too meta. Y'know, since the word "character" could mean a character in either a story OR a game, so I opted for "people" instead.

Do you really need this explaining to you, or are you being deliberately obtuse?


I haven't seen this in print anywhere.
It's alluded to in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) strip, and Rich has posted as much on this forum. I wouldn't know where to begin looking for that post now though. Er... little help, Porthos? :smallsmile:


I mean it's obvious Rich isn't running a literal game and he's not recording the results and putting them into his comic strip. He's the author. But being the author also makes him the 'player'.
Right, so you basically agree with me anyway. Glad we could have this edifying discussion about it all the same. :smallsigh:

I mean, unless you agree that Roy should just kick back and have fun (because it will make him more likeable) rather than getting on with the task of saving the world, or unless you think it's likely that we'll see "Belkar II" appear right after the original dies, I'm struggling to see why you even bothered replying to my post. :smallconfused:

[Sewblon]

Wait a minute... It all makes perfect sense now! Belkar is the only PC in the Stickverse. The rest of the Order are the visual personifications of Belkar's inner demons. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html In his Village Belkar was shunned for being weak, and when he left he was unfamiliar with non-Halfling civilization, so he ended up doing horrible things, like killing inocents, went insane, and assigned his faults too the delusions that became The Order of The Stick to alleviate his guilt. Roy is Belkar's cynicism and manipulative nature, Haley is his greed, Elan is his childishness, Durkon is his bigotry, and Vaarsuvius is his arrogance and petulance, from them arouse Team Evil to give them a valid reason for traveling together, and Miko emerged as a reflection of Belkar's current nature, everything he was at the time, she wasn't, and Belkar convinced himself that this had always been the case. Normally Owl's Wisdom has no effect on alignment, but when Belkar imagined it affecting him it partly reawakened his past self, that was why he apparently became Neutral Good. Now that he has learned how to handle his situation from Shojo in his dreams, as the story draws to a close the rest of The Order, everyone from their imagined past before they met Belkar, and Team Evil will fade into non-existance and Belkar will regain his sanity and become like we saw him when he was under the effects of Owl's Wisdom. It was so obvious!